Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

The Muppet

citytillidie wrote: »

Nope its done to death just like the transfer talk in here

Transfer talk is valid given the topic of discussion in this thread.

Mr Alan

ntlbell wrote: »

i think this is a comprehnsive list

kop

that website is a pimple on the arsehole of society.

a liverpool "fan site" which has had such great headlines recently as;

Another example of Rafas awful man management
Rafa condemns Liverpool to another defeat
Why we should sell Mascherano
The Gillette interview: did it really happen or did SoS make it up?
Gillette hasn't said anything wrong in his interviews
Gillette & Hicks saved Liverpool from mediocricy

I think its clear what their agenda is. the guy who runs it giving an interview to the republic of mancunia site slating Liverpool & benitez also should give you a good indication.

flahavaj

If you're going to analyse Rafa's transfers you have to look at the full list, or not at all. Pointless pulling out the ones that suit your argument, regardless of the price.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

that website is a pimple on the arsehole of society.

a liverpool "fan site" which has had such great headlines recently as;

Another example of Rafas awful man management
Rafa condemns Liverpool to another defeat
Why we should sell Mascherano
The Gillette interview: did it really happen or did SoS make it up?
Gillette hasn't said anything wrong in his interviews
Gillette & Hicks saved Liverpool from mediocricy

I think its clear what their agenda is. the guy who runs it giving an interview to the republic of mancunia site slating Liverpool & benitez also should give you a good indication.

So which of his figures are wrong?

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Why did you do that though? to discount a single signing skews the figures and any assumptions reached from them

the amount of players bought for under 5m & for free would give you an idea of the kind of restrictions Rafa is working under & some of them turned out to be very good buys. look, i'm sick of this conversation, yourself NtlBell, Headshot & Co. will always think Rafa is ****e. We get it.

flahavaj

Never saw Mr Alan backtracking like this before.

Mr Alan

one question for the Utd fans who are revelling in this conversation.

if Rafa is poor in the transfer market, and his team is full of average players, and he ain't much of a manager, how come there was only 4 points between him & the team he built and that of the greatest manager & in history of the PL last season?

slingerz

Rafa's days are numbered

Thank god for that

kida

From Skys Quotes of the week

"We are improving and my team will soon find again its best level. I am convinced of that."

Rafa Benitez.
Monday 19th October 10:47

The guy is delusional.

flahavaj

Thread is about Rafa and his perceived failings as liverpool manager. Start a thread about United if you like, otherwise please stay on topic.

Now, that list of transfers?

raven136

Mr Alan wrote: »

one question for the Utd fans who are revelling in this conversation.

if Rafa is poor in the transfer market, and his team is full of average players, and he ain't much of a manager, how come there was only 4 points between him & the team he built and that of the greatest manager & in history of the PL last season?

:DLove it.

If Liverpool do win on Sunday,it doesnt say much that a manager as bad as Rafa could lead his team to 3 successive victories over them.

Spud83

because we also went to the final of the champions league, semi final of the fa cup, final of the Carling Cup(winning it), and traveled to Japan mid season.

~Rebel~

slingerz wrote: »

Rafa's days are numbered

Thank god for that

If thats the case I fear for LFC in the short to medium term.

Pool have no money. Rafa would cost a fortune to pay off. There is NOONE better, or as good as him available.

kida wrote: »

From Skys Quotes of the week


The guy is delusional.

he's delusional to think Liverpool can get back to their best soon? How so? Fair comment surely, every season liverpool start slow and then kick on. Rational enough to think it could happen again, particularly with a new 20million midfielder about ready to come into the starting lineup

LuckyLloyd

~Rebel~ wrote: »

If thats the case I fear for LFC in the short to medium term.

Pool have no money. Rafa would cost a fortune to pay off. There is NOONE better, or as good as him available.



he's delusional to think Liverpool can get back to their best soon? How so? Fair comment surely, every season liverpool start slow and then kick on. Rational enough to think it could happen again, particularly with a new 20million midfielder about ready to come into the starting lineup

The key point as always. Never stops people screaming "MARTIN O'NEILL / SOME OTHER MANAGER WHO HAS RUN HOT DURING THE PAST THREE MONTHS OR SO" though.

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

Now, that list of transfers?

wat about the list?

i'm not doubting Rafa has bought a lot of players, but people say he has bought ****e. simply put he hasn't.

when he has any sort of money to spend on players, generally he does well.

when he is forced to deal with players less than 5m or for free, he does not so well. but a lot of the time he makes money on em again & has got a couple of gems in that price region.

show me a manager in a top league in the world who is forced to buy players in the free-5m bracket yet expected to win the league!?

the fact rafa has gotten us so close & made us such a force in Europe is testament to his abilities in the transfer market.

ntlbell

raven136 wrote: »

:DLove it.

If Liverpool do win on Sunday,it doesnt say much that a manager as bad as Rafa could lead his team to 3 successive victories over them.

if liverpool's concern is a couple of good results against united then he's doing a super job.

and case is solved.

is this what liverpool fans have been reduced to? we're happy to win NOTHING in a season as long as we beat united?

that's a bit sad really i would have thought

ntlbell

~Rebel~ wrote: »

, particularly with a new 20million midfielder about ready to come into the starting lineup

price tags don't mean guarntee's

i give you robbie keane

raven136

ntlbell wrote: »

if liverpool's concern is a couple of good results against united then he's doing a super job.

and case is solved.

is this what liverpool fans have been reduced to? we're happy to win NOTHING in a season as long as we beat united?

that's a bit sad really i would have thought

but are you not reduced to quoting dunphy and attacking Lucas in your sig.I mean how dare Liverpool care that they beat their biggest rivals home and away last season while being managed by a fat spanish clueless chancer,i mean the cheek of us.

SlickRic

are liverpool done for this season? no. it's 9 games gone. there is plenty to play for even if the league is going to be very tough to get back in contention for.

is rafa done? are you having a laugh? we'd be financially crippled after his payoff, and very few, none of which are available, could do what he is doing.

it's frustrating as f*ck, but we have to deal with it. it is what it is. he's a stubborn baxtard, which on days like OT last year make him amazing, and on days like Saturday make him infuriating.

as spockety says, in a time when utd have been dominant under a manager the likes of which we're unlikely to see again, where clubs are getting taken over by sugar daddys, spending more net than we could dream of, we need to get realistic.

be forever optimistic, absolutely, but be realistic too, and not call for Rafa's head when we hit a difficult spell.

if we turn utd over at the weekend, many here will be wondering what all the fuss was about.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat about the list?

i'm not doubting Rafa has bought a lot of players, but people say he has bought ****e. simply put he hasn't.

when he has any sort of money to spend on players, generally he does well.

Originally Posted by Mr Alan

lets look at the players Rafa has signed for any type of money. i think you'll agree that his record is pretty impressive despite wat people would have you believe.

£20+ million:

Torres-unbelievably good buy

£15-20 million:

Mascherano-great buy, mocked at the time about the figure, worth more than twice that now.

Keane-poor buy, ended up costing around 2m-5m depending on reports.

£10-15 million:

Babel-disppointed.

Alonso-brilliant. wanted to leave, sold for 30m plus

£5-10 million:

Dossenna-poor
Riera-good buy
Agger-very good buy
Skrtel-very good buy
Reina-brilliant buy. relatively unheard of, regarded as one of the best in the world now
Benayoun-excellent buy
Leiva-average buy. much mocked, but genuinely scapegoated unfairly. for 5.5m played in some huge games for Liverpool and performed admirably, couple of really poor games, lot of average-decent games, couple of greaet games.
Kuyt-great buy. striker turned one of the best right sided players in the league
Pennant-average, did ok in spells.
Crouch-very good. slow start, then took off. sold on for a profit when Torres arrived and Crouch wanted more games
Bellamy-average, sold on for profit cause wanted more game time
Sissoko-brilliant before his injury, good after his injury. sold on for profit with the arrival of Mascherano
Morientes-disappointed.
Garcia-good, one of the main reasons we won the CL in 2005. sold on when wanted to go back to spain.

.

That depends on your definition of doing well, nearly half of your list above have not been successful your own admission and they are his most expensive signings..

ntlbell

raven136 wrote: »

but are you not reduced to quoting dunphy and attacking Lucas in your sig.I mean how dare Liverpool care that they beat their biggest rivals home and away last season while being managed by a fat spanish clueless chancer,i mean the cheek of us.

no i was reduced to celebrating ANOTHER league victory, but that's another topic.

i have no problem with smaller teams basking in the glory of beating united.

if that's good enough for them, fair play i say.

kida

~Rebel~ wrote: »

ool can get back to their best soon? How so? Fair comment surely, every season liverpool start slow and then kick on. Rational enough to think it could happen again, particularly with a new 20million midfielder about ready to come into the starting lineup

Hes delusional to think given recent results that they are improving

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

That depends on your definition of doing well, nearly half of your list above have not been successful by your own admission and they are his most expensive signings..

actually, with my list above i had 4 average buys, 12 good buys & 4 poor buys.

thats pretty ****ing good by any managers standards.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually, with my list above i had 4 average buys, 12 good buys & 4 poor buys.

thats pretty ****ing good by any managers standards.

Pennant, Levia average? Sissoko Brilliant???

Mr Alan

absolutely.

Pennant was brilliant for us from Jan to the season end in 2006-2007.

Lucas has had far more good games for us than bad (stamford bridge CL last year, OT last season, coming from the bench to win the debry for us) & with the age he is will only get better. he made 25 odd appearances last season in a team that set its PL points record & was he was average-good for most of it.

~Rebel~

ntlbell wrote: »

price tags don't mean guarntee's

i give you robbie keane

Of course not, but there is a decent chance that he will be an improvement on Lucas, ergo an improvement in the team. The level by which he is better is a big question, but its fairly safe to say improvement will be forthcoming, which is my point.

flahavaj

You persist in quoting from a list that is inaccurate Alan. I've asked on several occasions for a comprehensive list and you refuse to produce it. Your credibility is fading tbh.

Mr Alan

Wat lists are you talking about? the only list i put up is a list of players over 5m & what i thought of them. Hardly inaccurate.

If you want a list of every player signed for Liverpool incl reserves & lads for the academy, go do it yourself, i ain't your secretary.

L'prof

Mr Alan wrote: »

actually, with my list above i had 4 average buys, 12 good buys & 4 poor buys.

thats pretty ****ing good by any managers standards.

Not by Wenger's :cool:

flahavaj

Your list is simply a cross section of Benitez's transfers that suits whatever point you're trying to make, Mr Alan, But because its only a small number of a very long list of transfers he has made, its not an accurate and true reflection of his spending. So you should either stop quoting flawed stats or post the full list. Telling me to find the list is mere petulance, its YOUR point thats being critiqued here, not mine. I'm not the first one to ask you to post the proper facts, Alan, please do so.

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

Your list is simply a cross section of Benitez's transfers that suits whatever point you're trying to make, Mr Alan, But because its only a small number of a very long list of transfers he has made, its not an accurate and true reflection of his spending..

no no, it was in response to the fact that people were saying Rafa can't buy decent players. I was making the point that when he has money to spend (5m & upwards, his record is pretty good). i said this at the start of my post that it was a list of transfers where there was a significant outlay.

flahavaj wrote: »

So you should either stop quoting flawed stats or post the full list.

i am not quoting the list.

flahavaj wrote: »

Telling me to find the list is mere petulance, its YOUR point thats being critiqued here, not mine.

mere petulance? are you ****ing for real?

my point is not being critiqued. my point was about players Rafa has bought for more than 5m. your inventing your own point by incl players that did not fall into the catagory of players i was discussing.

chopperbyrne

Alan Hansen wrote:

It isn't crisis time just yet for Liverpool and Rafa Benítez, but lose to Lyon on Tuesday and then to Manchester United and it will be.
By next Sunday evening, they could be 10 points behind United and struggling to survive in the Champions League, but the real issue for Liverpool and Benítez is qualification for next season's Champions League.

As a manager of one of the 'big four' clubs, it goes with the territory that your job will be on the line if you fail to qualify for Europe's top competition and all the revenue that brings. And Liverpool are by no means a shoe-in to finish in the Premier League top four this season. Manchester City and Tottenham arguably have stronger squads and you also have Aston Villa, who underlined their qualities by beating Chelsea on Saturday.

That is why this week is so important. Two defeats would be catastrophic because Liverpool's title hopes would be over and they would face a real battle to progress beyond the group stages of the Champions League.

If you have two games that define your season in April, then that's great. Two defining games in January wouldn't be so good, but to have those games in the middle of October suggests something is fundamentally wrong somewhere.

People keep pointing to the sale of Xabi Alonso, but I'd suggest that the exits of Cristiano Ronaldo and Carlos Tévez at United were bigger losses, yet United are sitting at the top of the table.

Liverpool need a new ground and you can argue that there has been a lack of investment, but to be fair to the owners, Benítez has bought a lot of players.

Benítez has struggled in the £3-10m region, though, and players signed for those fees are an important factor. United signed Nemanja Vidic and Patrice Evra within that bracket and they have developed into two of the most important players in the league. Similarly, Arsenal appear to have done well with Thomas Vermaelen.

But Benítez hasn't done well with anybody in that price region. Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano and Glen Johnson have been good signings, but they all cost big money.

Over a length of time, you need four or five players in the £3-10m bracket to become great buys, but I don't see any at Liverpool.

We all know that they rely heavily on their two out-and-out superstars – Torres and Steven Gerrard – but whenever they are out, other players must step up and deliver and it isn't happening.

But the big problem on the pitch is that, six months ago, Liverpool looked rock-solid in defence, yet they now look so vulnerable. Benítez might disagree, but whenever a team changes its formation to accommodate three centre-backs, as Liverpool did at Sunderland, it's an admission that you are struggling.

The results will tell you that Liverpool have been leaking goals - 10 from set-pieces - and, with the way things are going, you simply cannot see them going unbeaten for 10 or 20 games. Unless they do that, they are not going to get back in the title race.

You can be sure the rest of the Premier League will not show any sympathy for Liverpool. The history and tradition of the 70s and 80s means nothing in 2009.

The mood around Liverpool at the moment is one of total and utter doom and gloom, but they cannot feel sorry for themselves even with the intervention of that beach ball!

While the picture will be bleak if they lose to Lyon and United, a win against the champions will close the gap on Sir Alex Ferguson's team to four points.

If that happens, Liverpool will be back in business, but they certainly cannot afford to lose this week.

Good article from Hansen.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

that website is a pimple on the arsehole of society.

a liverpool "fan site" which has had such great headlines recently as;

Another example of Rafas awful man management
Rafa condemns Liverpool to another defeat
Why we should sell Mascherano
The Gillette interview: did it really happen or did SoS make it up?
Gillette hasn't said anything wrong in his interviews
Gillette & Hicks saved Liverpool from mediocricy

I think its clear what their agenda is. the guy who runs it giving an interview to the republic of mancunia site slating Liverpool & benitez also should give you a good indication.

as if to prove my point a fresh article about how Rafa should leave was just put up. wat a website :rolleyes:

Hansen wrote:

Benítez has struggled in the £3-10m region, though, and players signed for those fees are an important factor. United signed Nemanja Vidic and Patrice Evra within that bracket and they have developed into two of the most important players in the league. Similarly, Arsenal appear to have done well with Thomas Vermaelen.

love Jockey, but thats simply not true.

Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Alonso
Kuyt
Benayoun

Eire-Dearg

Mr Alan wrote: »

as if to prove my point a fresh article about how Rafa should leave was just put up. wat a website :rolleyes:

wat site is this alan

thorbarry

I remember seeing this in the guardian a while back, Kop Flops lol

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/gallery/2009/may/20/liverpool-transfers

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

as if to prove my point a fresh article about how Rafa should leave was just put up. wat a website :rolleyes:

im going to have to book mark that great site

Gone Drinking

flahavaj

Total backtracking by Mr Alan here to be honest.

Mental note: Only transfers over 5 million are relevant when discussing a managerials abilities in the transfer market. Funny how that suits some arguments.

NabyLadistheman

This reminds me of the Rafa goes crazy thread. Very premature.

Kudo's to Mr. Alan - doing a great job

herbieflowers

Liverpool's transformation from also-rans under Houllier (no offence) to genuine title challengers says enough about Rafa's transfer policy tbh.

ntlbell

herbieflowers wrote: »

Liverpool's transformation from also-rans under Houllier (no offence) to genuine title challengers says enough about Rafa's transfer policy tbh.

correct me if i'm wrong here but hasn't rafa's league placing been pretty much matched by houllier?

one second place and not much else?

where's the improvement?

Mr Alan

here you go Flahavaj;

most of the players in this bracket have never really done enough to get a decent idea of how they've worked out. tried where possible.


the now infamous, players in the free-5m bracket;

Degan- always injured. poor.
Cavelieri-back up goalie.
Ngog-very good young prospect, always impresses. good
Insua-starting LB, one of the most promising young players in the league
Leto-unable to get Visa due to mix up with papers, profit made on him, now impressing in greece.
Itandje-back up goalie.
Voronin-not good enough, but scored a few & is quite creative, free. average.
Arbeloa-great buy.
El Zhar-average,starting to come into the fold at the first team now.
Aurelio-great buy.
Palletta-disappointed, swapped to bring in Insua
Fowler-average, valuable squad member on a free.
Kromkamp-poor involved with swap (.25m lost on the deal overall)
Barragan -youth player, sold for profit
Nunez - part of the michael owen deal
Zenden-free, did a job.
Gonzalez-sold for profit
Carson-sold for profit
Pellegrino-free, now member of the coaching team. implemented the zonal marking system
Josemi-swapped with Kronkamp (.25m lost on the deal overall)
Martin-youth
Antwi-youth
Hobbs-youth,sold on for profit
Miki Roque-youth
Gulacsi-youth
Padelli-youth
Anderson-youth,sold for profit
Poloskei-youth
Plessis-youth
Crowther-youth
Hansen-youth
Saric-youth
Ayala-youth
Weiji-youth
Blanco-youth
Flora-youth
Mendy-youth
Ajdarevic-youth
Simon-youth
Bouzanis-youth
Nemeth-youth
Pacheco-youth
Palsson-youth
Brouwer-youth
Durán-youth
Huth-youth
Domínguez-youth

see the detractors like to incl Rafas overhaul of the academy when talking about the amount of players bought. its absolute bollox of the highest order.

K-9

Rafa's net spend over the last 2 seasons is small. Keane was the big signing last year and that turned out to be a disaster.

Liverpool still finished second, our best season in a long time. Surely that means that Rafa's spending in the 3 seasons before that paid of?

Last season was a one off, even among most Liverpool supporters. We got a sustained title challenge after Xmas! Another one of those this year would be great. It isn't even Halloween and people are already deciding who the League will be between.

His record in the Champions League speaks for itself. 2 Finals, 1 CL, 1 S/F and 1 Q/F.

Having said all that, lose to United and realistically, a title challenge looks gone.

PS. Facepalm at Hansens comment on the £3-10 Million players!

Xavi6

Mr Alan wrote: »

Pellegrino-free, now member of the coaching team. implemented the zonal marking system

So it's his fault? :pac:

K-9

Mr Alan wrote: »

Alonso

Yep, Rafa can't buy a decent player for under £10 Million.

Yossi was a great bargain.

K-9

Xavi6 wrote: »

So it's his fault? :pac:

:pac:

Was wondering who'd be first to point that out!

Mr Alan

thats why i threw it in

Handsome Bob

I see Dunphy has reduced himself from clever sensationalism to just down right embarassing sensationalism. His article in today's Star was pretty much the same as Tony Cascarino's a few weeks back in the S*n, which says it all tbh.

flahavaj

I thought you could have put more effort into the second half of that list to be honest Alan, it looks like you lost interest halfway through. Otherwise well done.

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

I thought you could have put more effort into the second half of that list to be honest Alan, it looks like you lost interest halfway through. Otherwise well done.

in fairness, they are kids learning their trade. not much to say.