Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

Vampireskiss

I just love it,I can sense the fear. There are so many liverpool fans on here that actually thought it was going to be their year again even after 18 years of heartbreak and now they might not even finish in a top 4 spot.Don't worry lads ye may have a good run in the carling cup and ye could get to the final of the uefa cup next season.United to win 3-0 sunday:D

The Muppet

builttospill wrote: »

Eh no,

I asked for a good counter argument which I still haven't got. Just another ignorant rebuttal. Hmmmmm...

Also I'm obviously up against a load of Liverpool fans in here. Silly me.

Torres makes all the right noises when talking about Liverpool, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He doesn't come across as being motivated by money either.

builttospill

The Muppet wrote: »

Torres makes all the right noises when talking about Liverpool, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He doesn't come across as being motivated by money either.

Cheers,

True, he obviously has a genuine passion for the club but you know yourself if things aren't working out he could leave. I mean Gerrard almost left a couple of years ago.

fkt

The Muppet wrote: »

Arsenal:eek: Ah now delusional isn't the word for it.

Arsenal had a decision to make and chose a new stadium over new players. They have spent more money as a football club than most.

magma69

Okay folks, I have been looking at these threads for a while now but couldn't comment and it was frustrating to say the least. I am going to proceed to break down the team in terms of the quality we have and set a few things straight for these people who think Liverpool are a side who should be winning the league.

In terms of world class players, I would say we have three. Reina, Gerrard and Torres. There is no doubting these are top players who would get into most, if not all, teams in the world. Without these three players Liverpool are nothing more than a UEFA cup level team.

On a level down from these we have a portion of players who are good, but not great. Players who are good squad players but are lacking in real class. This would include players like, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Benayoun, Agger and Mascherano.

Then we have players who have not shown they can't consistently compete at this level who often start in the Liverpool side. Average premiership players at best. Some of these may get better but you can only judge them on their merits. Babel, Lucas, Aurelio, Riera, Voronin, N'Gog, El Zhar, Spearing.

Compare this squad to Man U or Chelsea. Only our top 3 and maybe Mascherano or Johnson would have any chance of starting in their teams. The fact is many of our core players that make up our starting eleven week in week out are not at the top level. People here seem to consider Kuyt top class. I really admire the player, don't get me wrong but I could name several better premiership wingers. Lennon, Young, Giggs, Arshavin, Wright-Phillips etc.

If you take Torres and Gerrard a team like Tottenham are on par, if not better, thoughout their squad.

The reason Liverpool are so successful is because of good management. Last season they performed excellently considering Torres being injured for a large portion of the season. They pressure teams very well and do not let them play with it. If we had a bit more class throughout the team to convert those draws into wins we may have won the league. I think Rafa gets a very hard time. He has made a team with limited ability into a very organised team. Mada a few suspect signings but what manager hasn't. So I think it is extremely unfair to say Rafa and Liverpool are done. If they get one more superstar and 3 or four quality players to replace the rubbish ones we have at the moment we have as much chance as any to win the league but right now we are a little lacking in quality throughout the squad. Liverpools only chance of success is in the cups this season I'm afraid.

Pighead

builttospill wrote: »

Cheers,

True, he obviously has a genuine passion for the club but you know yourself if things aren't working out he could leave. I mean Gerrard almost left a couple of years ago.

I reckon it'll largely depend on the Rafa situation. If Rafa walks/gets fired at any stage of this season, I reckon Torres could well move next summer. Otherwise, I can't see him having any great desire to leave any time soon.

fkt

Torres won't leave because he is a real person playing for a real football club. Players like him don't want to play for a plastic, soulless football club like Real Madrid or one of the many Landan teams who desperately try to make it sound like they're somewhat passionate.

fkt

magma69 wrote: »

On a level down from these we have a portion of players who are good, but not great. Players who are good squad players but are lacking in real class. This would include players like, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Benayoun, Agger and Mascherano.

This comment is surely worth a ban.

Agger, Johnson, Benayoun lack real class? Good grief

SlickRic

Pighead wrote: »

I reckon it'll largely depend on the Rafa situation. If Rafa walks/gets fired at any stage of this season, I reckon Torres could well move next summer. Otherwise, I can't see him having any great desire to leave any time soon.

the only place i can see him ever going to going is Barcelona, or an Italian team, but their league as we all know isn't the most attractive to be going to.

and it won't be any time soon (i.e. the next 3 years)

Real Madrid, just no.

i genuinely don't believe he'd go anywhere else in England.

he comes across as loyal as you will get. i suspect he'd even suffer through a UEFA Cup season if worse came to absolute worst.

builttospill

Pighead wrote: »

I reckon it'll largely depend on the Rafa situation. If Rafa walks/gets fired at any stage of this season, I reckon Torres could well move next summer. Otherwise, I can't see him having any great desire to leave any time soon.

I agree,

And to sum up what I said earlier; when I say Torres may be starting to have doubts I mean that If Liverpool don't win anything in the next 2-3 seasons (which is highly likely) then I reckon he will go further a field. I mean it's only natural for a player of his stature to want the best. Everything I have said is based on what I've seen so far this season. The jury is still out. And Liverpool fans think I'm utterly ridiculous for stating this. It's funny when blind faith gets in the way of reality. Like religious people they become delusional. You see I support a championship team so I'm a total objective observer with no ties when it comes to the premiership.

The Muppet

Pighead wrote: »

I reckon it'll largely depend on the Rafa situation. If Rafa walks/gets fired at any stage of this season, I reckon Torres could well move next summer. Otherwise, I can't see him having any great desire to leave any time soon.

I think he could well stay even if Benitez goes. He signed for a reason and I think he'd hang around for a year or so under a new manager to see if accomplishing that was a realistic possibility. Thats assuming Liverpool don't find themselves in a position of needing to capitalise on him.

SlickRic

magma69 wrote: »

On a level down from these we have a portion of players who are good, but not great. Players who are good squad players but are lacking in real class. This would include players like, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Benayoun, Agger and Mascherano.

apart from this list, i thought it was a very good post.

johnson and masch are top quality, and I don't know what kuyt has to do to be recognised as one of our top players.

also, who aren't an average enough team without their three world class players?

kryogen

Pighead wrote: »

I reckon it'll largely depend on the Rafa situation. If Rafa walks/gets fired at any stage of this season, I reckon Torres could well move next summer. Otherwise, I can't see him having any great desire to leave any time soon.

he seems to say all the right things, and genuinely seems a loyal player with a great attitude.

the only thing other then Rafa leaving that i could see pushing him out the door is if they continue to be league trophyless and fail to win in europe again for a few years. he doesnt seem motivated by money but he is obviously one of the best in the world, and they want to win trophies

fkt

Vampireskiss wrote: »

I just love it,I can sense the fear. There are so many liverpool fans on here that actually thought it was going to be their year again even after 18 years of heartbreak and now they might not even finish in a top 4 spot.Don't worry lads ye may have a good run in the carling cup and ye could get to the final of the uefa cup next season.United to win 3-0 sunday:D

LOL I missed this one.

And why to you support Man Yernited may I ask?

magma69

SlickRic wrote: »

apart from this list, i thought it was a very good post.

johnson and masch are top quality, and I don't know what kuyt has to do to be recognised as one of our top players.

also, who aren't an average enough team without their three world class players?

Masch and Johnson I think are close to top class but I think Johnson needs to improve defensively and Masch needs to make better use of the ball to be world class. I think Kuyt's poor first touch and inability to take a player on renders him lacking in creativity. Any manager would love to have these players in their squad no doubt. I admit Johnson has potential to be world class and I am confident he will improve under Benitez's guidance. He already has to be fair.

Well, if you take Vidic, Rooney and Giggs out of the United team you still have a wealth of quality that can win games. That's what sets them apart from Liverpool. They can rely on the likes of Scholes, Evra, Fletcher, Owen even Park to do the business. When our superstars are out, players like Benayoun, Kuyt etc, although good players, just are not good enough to take the game by the scruff of the neck in the way the United players do. If you take superstars out of both teams United are just that little bit ahead in terms of quality throughout the squad. That is the difference between winning the league and being 5-10 points off.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

Torres makes all the right noises when talking about Liverpool, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He doesn't come across as being motivated by money either.

The guy is a perfect role model for young kids everywhere. The class of the guy on and of the pitch is a joy to behold.

K-9

magma69 wrote: »

Masch and Johnson I think are close to top class but I think Johnson needs to improve defensively and Masch needs to make better use of the ball to be world class. I think Kuyt's poor first touch and inability to take a player on renders him lacking in creativity. Any manager would love to have these players in their squad no doubt. I admit Johnson has potential to be world class and I am confident he will improve under Benitez's guidance. He already has to be fair.

Well, if you take Vidic, Rooney and Giggs out of the United team you still have a wealth of quality that can win games. That's what sets them apart from Liverpool. They can rely on the likes of Scholes, Evra, Fletcher, Owen even Park to do the business. When our superstars are out, players like Benayoun, Kuyt etc, although good players, just are not good enough to take the game by the scruff of the neck in the way the United players do. If you take superstars out of both teams United are just that little bit ahead in terms of quality throughout the squad. That is the difference between winning the league and being 5-10 points off.

If you just take Vidic and Ferdinand out, United look dodgy.

flahavaj

fkt wrote: »

Torres won't leave because he is a real person playing for a real football club.

What makes Liverpool a "real" footbnall club over say United, Arsenal, or Chelsea or any other club you care to mention?

Players like him don't want to play for a plastic, soulless football club like Real Madrid or one of the many Landan teams who desperately try to make it sound like they're somewhat passionate.

Again, examples please? And what makes these clubs less passionate than others? Indeed how can an entity like a football club be passionate? I can understand supporters, players or even f*cking lovers being passionate, but an actual football club? Explain that one to me please.:pac:

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

The guy is a perfect role model for young kids everywhere. The class of the guy on and of the pitch is a joy to behold.

lets not go too far now, he is well capable of having little kicks at players and mouthing off at refs and his opponents when things dont go his way!

perfect role model = Ryan Giggs, Denis Irwin.....etc....

he has often been criticised, by his own manager even for not getting on with the game!

not wanting to argue this, not taking anything away from him

magma69

K-9 wrote: »

If you just take Vidic and Ferdinand out, United look dodgy.

If you take any team's two starting centre backs out they would look dodgy. But even so, whilst dodgy at the back they would still be a major threat at the other end of the pitch and would come through most games with a win. We're sliding off topic here. Better stick to talking about the Pool.

flahavaj

K-9 wrote: »

If you just take Vidic and Ferdinand out, United look dodgy.

Brown and Evans is a more than decent centre half pairing in fairness as second choice to Vidic/Rio, or indeed JOS is another alternative.

Certainly more viable alternatives in their respective positions than Liverpool's alternatives for Torres/Gerrard.

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

If you just take Vidic and Ferdinand out, United look dodgy.

if you take the both the first choice centre half partnership from any team i would hope they will be weaker

Vampireskiss

The Muppet wrote: »

Torres makes all the right noises when talking about Liverpool, I don't see him going anywhere anytime soon. He doesn't come across as being motivated by money either.

Do you think he is motivated by success?

SlickRic

kryogen wrote: »

not wanting to argue this, not taking anything away from him

why say it then?

you know you'll get an argument from someone.

yes, perfect was a strong word, since nobody is perfect. he is a brilliant role model for us on and off the pitch though.

he's given little kicks out, but how many times does he get kicked in comparison? it's part and parcel of the game. just like ronaldo for instance. it's not an excuse, but i'm not going to take away from his role model-worthiness because of a couple of petulant kicks in retaliation in the past.

and giggs can mouth off to refs with the best of them. very very few are perfectly professional all of the time.

irwin was as close as it gets though, i'll give you that.

SlickRic

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Do you think he is motivated by success?

i'm sure he is.

but he will do all he can to achieve it at the club he has supported all his life.

of that i have no doubt.

ntlbell

The Muppet wrote: »

I think he could well stay even if Benitez goes. He signed for a reason and I think he'd hang around for a year or so under a new manager to see if accomplishing that was a realistic possibility. Thats assuming Liverpool don't find themselves in a position of needing to capitalise on him.

it would be a travesty for torress to stay there and end up with nothing season after season


look how good he is surrounded by mediocrity just imagine him in a quality attacking side like arsenal/barca etc

frightening

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

it would be a travesty for torress to stay there and end up with nothing season after season


look how good he is surrounded by mediocrity just imagine him in a quality attacking side like arsenal/barca etc

are you honestly still trying to peddle the argument that we are not an attacking side?

seriously?

he would be a joy at barca or arsenal, obviously. what great players wouldn't? rooney, evra or berbatov would be awesome at those clubs too.

Mental Mickey

[QUOTE=ntlbell;62609610]it would be a travesty for torress to stay there and end up with nothing season after season


look how good he is surrounded by mediocrity just imagine him in a quality attacking side like arsenal/barca etc

frightening[/QUOTE]

This is precisely what Gerrard has done. Remember a few years ago, when he was being courted by Chelski!? He turned the move down cos he knew he'd be f**kin hammered by the fans if he left.

The same way that some people who call themselves Pool fans are having a go at Michael Owen for joining Man U. I for one say fair play to Mikey. He may finally get the chance to win the one trophy that he never got his hands on in his time in Liverpool - the Premiership.

SlickRic

Mental Mickey wrote: »

He turned the move down cos he knew he'd be f**kin hammered by the fans if he left.

just to correct you...

once our useless board got their fingers out and got around to offering him the assurances he had asked for many months previously, he then turned the Chelsea move down and signed the contract.

ntlbell

SlickRic wrote: »

are you honestly still trying to peddle the argument that we are not an attacking side?

seriously?

he would be a joy at barca or arsenal, obviously. what great players wouldn't? rooney, evra or berbatov would be awesome at those clubs too.

i don't think i ever said liverpool were not an attacking side i said he would be frighteningly good at a quality one.

and yes rooney berba would be great at arsenal, but they're all ready winning medal's where they are? why would they move?

SlickRic

ntlbell wrote: »

i don't think i ever said liverpool were not an attacking side i said he would be frighteningly good at a quality one.

we are a quality attacking side. torres has repeatedly said how much he loves playing in the team, especially when it's playing well.

you saying seeing him in those 'quality attacking sides' inferred we weren't. if that's not what you meant, fair enough.

torres will only move when he has lost all hope in us ever winning anything, of that i've no doubt.

jank

Mr Alan wrote: »

one question for the Utd fans who are revelling in this conversation.

if Rafa is poor in the transfer market, and his team is full of average players, and he ain't much of a manager, how come there was only 4 points between him & the team he built and that of the greatest manager & in history of the PL last season?

If that is the basis of your arguement than no wonder liverpool are in the state they are in. Rafa will never win the league with liverpool. They should get rid of him this season and get Jose in.

Headshot

so if Liverpool don't win a trophy this season, would pool fans still support rafa ?

again im curious

citytillidie

Mental Mickey wrote: »

This is precisely what Gerrard has done. Remember a few years ago, when he was being courted by Chelski!? He turned the move down cos he knew he'd be f**kin hammered by the fans if he left.

The same way that some people who call themselves Pool fans are having a go at Michael Owen for joining Man U. I for one say fair play to Mikey. He may finally get the chance to win the one trophy that he never got his hands on in his time in Liverpool - the Premiership.

Yea and as soon as he left what did Liverpool win that season? Would have had his hands on the Biggest prize in Club football if he was not turned by his greed for money in Madrid

K-9

Headshot wrote: »

so if Liverpool don't win a trophy this season, would pool fans still support rafa ?

again im curious

Depends. 2nd or a close 3rd and a CL S/F would be good. Anything after that is a huge bonus.

On the Vidic Ferdinand point, of course it's relevant.

Taking out the bedrock of a teams success is on topic. United struggle without them two, Liverpool sometimes struggle without Gerard and Torres.

Again, they only played together 14 times last season and we still finished second.

We've torn apart the weaker teams we struggled against last year at home.

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

so if Liverpool don't win a trophy this season, would pool fans still support rafa ?

again im curious

it always depends on the manner of it.

i, for one, would get impatient, if we lost significant ground and didn't win something.

but Rafa is genuinely the only good thing going for us right now at management/owner level. plus, we will not get better unless we take a punt on someone unproven. plus we'd have to pay ridiculous compensation fees.

so, in summation, i think i'd be getting far more critical of him, while still begrudgingly understanding the state the club is in and the constraints he is working under.

sacking him is not the answer unless our circumstances change.

i think he's done amazing things, but we'd have to face up to it at some stage in the next couple of years if things aren't improving, that maybe, just maybe, he won't be able to take us to the next level. but such is the financial state of the club, i don't know if anyone could take us to that level soon.

these are all questions for the end of the season though.

jank

fkt wrote: »

Torres won't leave because he is a real person playing for a real football club. Players like him don't want to play for a plastic, soulless football club like Real Madrid or one of the many Landan teams who desperately try to make it sound like they're somewhat passionate.

Oh Please seriously just stop. Are we back to this none arguement again.
"We have 'istoryyyyy!!"

magma69

K-9 wrote: »

Depends. 2nd or a close 3rd and a CL S/F would be good. Anything after that is a huge bonus.

On the Vidic Ferdinand point, of course it's relevant.

Taking out the bedrock of a teams success is on topic. United struggle without them two, Liverpool sometimes struggle without Gerard and Torres.

Again, they only played together 14 times last season and we still finished second.

We've torn apart the weaker teams we struggled against last year at home.

I fail to see how discussing Man U's defense is on topic in a thread titled "Are Liverpool (and Rafa) done. But anyways, you need to get real if you think Man U are as reliant on Vidic and Ferdinand in the same way Liverpool are reliant on Torres and Gerrard. Gerrard almost single handedly won us many a game last season. He played out of his skin and was robbed of player of the year in my opinion.

You need to remember that Johnny Evans was at the heart of United's defense during their record breaking clean sheets streak last season so that kind of rubbishes your argument.

invincibleirish

SlickRic wrote: »

i'm sure he is.

but he will do all he can to achieve it at the club he has supported all his life.

of that i have no doubt.

Er what? isn't Torres a lifelong Atletico Madrid fan? He'll end up back in Spain, same way Alonso has and Fabregas will in near future.

Johnny Utah

Rafa is a clown, plain and simple. He's squandered millions on questionable signings. He adopts the wrong outlook on the game- he took a quality centre forward in Dirk Kuyt and transformed him into a hardworking right-winger, which says it all really. Compare the difference in philosophy between Benitez and Wenger; the latter sets his team to play in the right way and they are also a joy to watch. Wenger has also had considerably less to spend on new players.

Finally, the manner in which Rafa treated Robbie Keane was deplorable. I said it at the time Rafa decided to sell Keane that it was a bad decision and it would come back to bite him in the ass because Liverpool didn't have sufficient cover if Torres got injured in the run-in.

Mr Alan

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Rafa is a clown, plain and simple.

nice

He adopts the wrong outlook on the game- he took a quality centre forward in Dirk Kuyt and transformed him into a hardworking right-winger, which says it all really.

one of the best wingers in the league. free scoring, hard working, plenty of assists, superb management from Rafa tbh.

Wrong outlook on the game? was there a team that played better attacking football in the league last year than Liverpool in the last 6 mths of last season?

i don't think so, as evidenced by the numerous hammerings we handed out, incl to top teams like Villa & Utd and us finishing as the leagues top scorers.

Johnny Utah wrote:

Finally, the manner in which Rafa treated Robbie Keane was deplorable. I said it at the time Rafa decided to sell Keane that it was a bad decision and it would come back to bite him in the ass because Liverpool didn't have sufficient cover if Torres got injured in the run-in.

hold on.....

Johnny Utah wrote:

he took a quality centre forward in Dirk Kuyt

Nandos back up is quality. you just said so?!

we didn't need Keane in our first team, he wasn't good enough, nor could we afford to keep him as backup.

personally i thought the decision to sell Keane without bringing in a placement was questionable at the time, but Rafa was clearly vindicated in doing so as evidenced by how well we played in the closing months of the season after Keane left. a gamble, yes, but one that paid off.

K-9

magma69 wrote: »

I fail to see how discussing Man U's defense is on topic in a thread titled "Are Liverpool (and Rafa) done. But anyways, you need to get real if you think Man U are as reliant on Vidic and Ferdinand in the same way Liverpool are reliant on Torres and Gerrard. Gerrard almost single handedly won us many a game last season. He played out of his skin and was robbed of player of the year in my opinion.

You need to remember that Johnny Evans was at the heart of United's defense during their record breaking clean sheets streak last season so that kind of rubbishes your argument.

So taking out the 2 most important players in another top team and comparing how it would affect them is irrelevant.

OK, so Evans slotted in. How do they cope without VDS?

How many clean sheets was it last year? Irrelevant in who won the league?

Okaydokee!

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

So taking out the 2 most important players in another top team and comparing how it would affect them is irrelevant.

Its not like for like though, Rio and Vidic are both defenders, important yes, but even without them we generally find a way to win, and we have still got some amazing players left

if we are discussing Torres and Gerrard being liverpools two most important players, should we not compare them to how united do without Rooney and Scholes? or Giggs even, Giggs more recently i suppose? It will probably work out better from a liverpool point of view to do that?

but i would stand by an arguement that says uniteds squad is stronger and better equipped to losing a couple of players to injury then liverpools, its ok if you dont agree. thats what makes football so frickin fun!

united lost Ronaldo, most say he hasnt been replaced, yet we are still finding a way to get it done and we are top of the league

would liverpool be able to cope if Gerrard left? who knows as it wont happen at this stage.

Johnny Utah

Mr Alan wrote: »

nice



one of the best wingers in the league. free scoring, hard working, plenty of assists, superb management from Rafa tbh.

Wrong outlook on the game? was there a team that played better attacking football in the league last year than Liverpool in the last 6 mths of last season?

i don't think so, as evidenced by the numerous hammerings we handed out, incl to top teams like Villa & Utd and us finishing as the leagues top scorers.



hold on.....



Nandos back up is quality. you just said so?!

we didn't need Keane in our first team, he wasn't good enough, nor could we afford to keep him as backup.

personally i thought the decision to sell Keane without bringing in a placement was questionable at the time, but Rafa was clearly vindicated in doing so as evidenced by how well we played in the closing months of the season after Keane left. a gamble, yes, but one that paid off.

Kuyt is used as a winger primarily, not a centre forward. Plus, you need more than one player as back-up if you want to challenge for honours.

Selling Keane, especially without bringing in a player of equal/better quality as back-up, was a huge mistake. Liverpool could have won the league that season, but they threw it away.


And, why do you think Liverpool couldn't afford to keep Robbie Keane as back-up? Are Liverpool not a big side anymore? All the major European clubs have strong squads with quality in depth (eg. Barca, Chelsea, United, Real)- do Liverpool genuinely want to be competing with these clubs? If so, they need strength in depth.

empirix

well ive had enough - Rafa out. His too tempremental, rotates the team too much, has made many crap signings, yes and some great ones, zonal marking - fcuk off, robbie Keane - disgrace for a huge club to treat any player like that, his a continental manager and just doesnt have the management skills for the premiership, thanks rafa but its time for change! And get those american twats out too!

~Rebel~

empirix wrote: »

well ive had enough - Rafa out. His too tempremental, rotates the team too much, has made many crap signings, yes and some great ones, zonal marking - fcuk off, robbie Keane - disgrace for a huge club to treat any player like that, his a continental manager and just doesnt have the management skills for the premiership, thanks rafa but its time for change!

...this is tongue in cheek right?

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

Its not like for like though, Rio and Vidic are both defenders, important yes, but even without them we generally find a way to win, and we have still got some amazing players left

if we are discussing Torres and Gerrard being liverpools two most important players, should we not compare them to how united do without Rooney and Scholes? or Giggs even, Giggs more recently i suppose? It will probably work out better from a liverpool point of view to do that?

but i would stand by an arguement that says uniteds squad is stronger and better equipped to losing a couple of players to injury then liverpools, its ok if you dont agree. thats what makes football so frickin fun!

united lost Ronaldo, most say he hasnt been replaced, yet we are still finding a way to get it done and we are top of the league

would liverpool be able to cope if Gerrard left? who knows as it wont happen at this stage.

No, most know the reason United won last year was the clean sheets. Arguing otherwise makes no sense. An important partnership.


Most know the reason Liverpool where so effective after Xmas was Gerrard and Torres.

Both are partnerships.

magma69

K-9 wrote: »

So taking out the 2 most important players in another top team and comparing how it would affect them is irrelevant.

OK, so Evans slotted in. How do they cope without VDS?

How many clean sheets was it last year? Irrelevant in who won the league?

Okaydokee!

What is VDS? Would you rephrase your post please. I have no idea what you are referring to.

IvySlayer

magma69 wrote: »

What is VDS? Would you rephrase your post please. I have no idea what you are referring to.

Van Der Sar, the United keeper.

Basically he's saying United cope with losing 2 major players better than Liverpool.

kryogen

K-9 wrote: »

No, most know the reason United won last year was the clean sheets. Arguing otherwise makes no sense. An important partnership.


Most know the reason Liverpool where so effective after Xmas was Gerrard and Torres.

Both are partnerships.

ok, thats a fair enough point then if you look at it purely like that. but i disagree, the defence does not win individual games, solid defence over the season will of course give you a good chance at the league but you need to have someone to win you the games! neither Rio or Vida is a good example of this

Liverpool werent actually that great until march last year tbh, check the results yourself if you doubt it