Are Liverpool ( and Rafa ) done? *Haters Gonna Hate

K-9

kryogen wrote: »

ok, thats a fair enough point then if you look at it purely like that. but i disagree, the defence does not win individual games, solid defence over the season will of course give you a good chance at the league but you need to have someone to win you the games! neither Rio or Vida is a good example of this

Liverpool werent actually that great until march last year tbh, check the results yourself if you doubt it

We did ok until March, until the Boro game we only lost once. Too many draws yes, but conceding little. What gets overlooked is from March on we started conceding more goals too!

United's defence speaks for itself last season. Most neutral observers and fair United fans accept that.

Boggles

K-9 wrote: »

We did ok until March,

10 points from a possible 21 is not "ok" it's rubbish, especially for a team with aspirations of the title.

K-9 wrote: »

United's defence speaks for itself last season.

Uniteds defense was actually better the year before, we were missing arguably our best defender the season previous in Brown, Ferdinand also only made 24 league starts.

It shows the strenght of the squad when you can bring in a season pro like O'Shea and exceptional youth like Evans and the young Brazilian to fill in for top class defenders.

Uniteds defense last season was a large part of success, but a larger part was the quality attack which simply didn't allow the team to draw games.

The Muppet

Vampireskiss wrote: »

Do you think he is motivated by success?

I would think he is motivated by an ambition to win the premier league as Liverpools main goalscorer. There were more succesfull teams interested in signing him before liverpool did but he never expressed any interest in moving.

He may well be another Matthew Le Tessier who could have moved to to more successful teams but was happy to ply his trade with southampton.

Mr Alan

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Kuyt is used as a winger primarily, not a centre forward. Plus, you need more than one player as back-up if you want to challenge for honours.

did Liverpool not challenge for honours last season?!

And, why do you think Liverpool couldn't afford to keep Robbie Keane as back-up? Are Liverpool not a big side anymore? All the major European clubs have strong squads with quality in depth (eg. Barca, Chelsea, United, Real)- do Liverpool genuinely want to be competing with these clubs? If so, they need strength in depth.

If Liverpool didn't sell Robbie Keane in Jan, you can take 15m out of the money we spent this summer, so that'd be no johnson (who has been sensational), or Aquilani who is alonsos replacement.

i'd love to be able to compete financially with the clubs you've mentioned, but the simple fact is, we can't.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

so that'd be no johnson (who has been sensational),

In which games has Johnson been sensational ?

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

In which games has Johnson been sensational ?

? jeez, even in the sunderland performance he looked one of the most dangerous. Has looked consistently very very good so far this year for pool. Wouldn't have though this was a point for debate tbh...

The Muppet

~Rebel~ wrote: »

? jeez, even in the sunderland performance he looked one of the most dangerous. Has looked consistently very very good so far this year for pool. Wouldn't have though this was a point for debate tbh...

I only asked a question , I'm not debating anything.

I didn't see the Sunderland game so can't really comment on it

~Rebel~

The Muppet wrote: »

I only asked a question , I'm not debating anything.

I didn't see the Sunderland game so can't really comment on it

ok, in that case, he's been very good alright, constantly an attacking threat, gets a shot or two on target in nigh on every game i'd say and so far his potential defensive frailties haven't shown themselves in a liverpool shirt. Has cleaned up for Carra on more then one occasion. Looks incredibly comfortable on the ball, though with the size of him its to be expected, very hard to push him off it. One of our few shining lights so far this season.

SWAR

The Muppet wrote: »

I only asked a question , I'm not debating anything.

I didn't see the Sunderland game so can't really comment on it

Well if you had seen the other Liverpool games this season (or at least the highlights), you should have noticed that Johnson has been consistantly very good. One persons idea of exceptional is different to anothers but surely you had no need to ask that question...seems like you are trying to drag this arguement (debate) on...not like people haven't heard it all before.

The Muppet

SWAR wrote: »

Well if you had seen the other Liverpool games this season (or at least the highlights), you should have noticed that Johnson has been consistantly very good. One persons idea of exceptional is different to anothers but surely you had no need to ask that question...seems like you are trying to drag this arguement (debate) on...not like people haven't heard it all before.

I have seen a few, Tottenham, Chelsea, Villa, CL games and saw him play for England recently, can't say I though he was "sensational" in any of those games. I suppose it depends on individuals intrepretaion of the meaning of the word sensational.

NabyLadistheman

The Muppet wrote: »

I have seen a few, Tottenham, Chelsea, Villa, CL games and saw him play for England recently, can't say I though he was "sensational" in any of those games. I suppose it depends on individuals intrepretaion of the meaning of the word sensational.

He was Liverpool's best preformer in losses against Sunderland & Tottenham. (created a penalty) He scored & created a couple in the 4-0 rout of stoke. He has played well in other games & has done nothing wrong thus far. Defensively sound and a serioius attacking threat for us. Our best player so far I would have thought

flahavaj

torresistheman wrote: »

He was Liverpool's best preformer in losses against Sunderland & Tottenham. (created a penalty) He scored & created a couple in the 4-0 rout of stoke. He has played well in other games & has done nothing wrong thus far. Defensively sound and a serioius attacking threat for us. Our best player so far I would have thought

A more balanced view than "sensational" in fairness. Hes been better than any other RB in the league by a comfortable distance to be fair.

Not including JOS.

Headshot

jebus what is happening ?

dreamers75

Headshot wrote: »

jebus what is happening ?

"found out" is the technical football term.

mike65

Whats happening? All sorts - Injuries to top players, lack of confidence, others teams playing at a higher level than before (Sunderland), some poor tactics (Sunderland again).
Buying a player who could be very good but can't play until healed so Lucas is asked to play a role he can't - we all hoped the gap could be filled but it hasn't been at all.

Vanbis

I can't say i'm suprised to see what is happening at Liverpool, they have an average squad in my opnion with average players apart from Gerrard, Reina ( best keeper in the league by a mile ) Mascherano and Torres. How insua plays i dont know, he is too slow for a fullback with no pace and was caught out so many times tonight.You can't really blame Benitez because he hasn't been given the money this season but with he has got he has spent poorly. I'm not a fan of himself, think he comes accross quite arrogant but maybe thats the pressure he is on. I'd be very suprised if he walked or was sacked if they loose to Manutd on sunday. Who out their would take over? Mourinho? no chance, he have no money and is doing a great job with Inter.


Roll on sunday, revenge is on me thinks :cool:

Headshot

mike65 wrote: »

Whats happening? All sorts - Injuries to top players, lack of confidence, others teams playing at a higher level than before (Sunderland), some poor tactics (Sunderland again).
Buying a player who could be very good but can't play until healed so Lucas is asked to play a role he can't - we all hoped the gap could be filled but it hasn't been at all.

bar the injuries I hate to say it "the rest is rafa's fault in the end"

mark renton

dreamers75 wrote: »

"found out" is the technical football term.

Rafa has been found out - his stubborness has ruined the season, too many bad decisions to mention

Bye Bye Rafa

Life long Pool fan

mike65

Headshot wrote: »

bar the injuries I hate to say it "the rest is rafa's fault in the end"

Ah you can't blame Rafa for Sunderland being a pretty good side.

Headshot

mike65 wrote: »

Ah you can't blame Rafa for Sunderland being a pretty good side.

you did say the tactics were bad against sunderland

flahavaj

Its hard to know which thread to look at, this, the match thread of the Official Thread.:)

mike65

Headshot wrote: »

you did say the tactics were bad against sunderland

But they are a better side than before as I mentioned, the tactics are a seperate matter.

manutd

Headshot wrote: »

bar the injuries I hate to say it "the rest is rafa's fault in the end"

Totaly agree with you.

mike65

"A guy called manutd agrees with another Utd fan about Liverpool" shocker

Headshot

mike65 wrote: »

But they are a better side than before as I mentioned, the tactics are a seperate matter.

being honest I only saw the highlights but it seemed ye were very poor, no motivation, just the heads always dropping

but im a firm believer in rafa and im re-starting that campaign



we'll march and march for that man

Let's get Trigger as a manager for a laugh. At least I'd get entertainment value.

mike65

Everyone stab KaG! :pac:

Vanbis

mike65 wrote: »

"A guy called manutd agrees with another Utd fan about Liverpool" shocker

You don't agree?

magma69

Vanbis wrote: »

I can't say i'm suprised to see what is happening at Liverpool, they have an average squad in my opnion with average players apart from Gerrard, Reina ( best keeper in the league by a mile ) and Torres. How insua plays i dont know, he is too slow for a fullback with no pace and was caught out so many times tonight.You can't really blame Benitez because he hasn't been given the money this season but with he has got he has spent poorly. I'm not a fan of himself, think he comes accross quite arrogant but maybe thats the pressure he is on. I'd be very suprised if he walked or was sacked if they loose to Manutd on sunday. Who out their would take over? Mourinho? no chance, he have no money and is doing a great job with Inter.


Roll on sunday, revenge is on me thinks :cool:

Finally, someone who sees Liverpool for what they are. Agree about Mourinho. He is waiting to take the reigns at United I reckon. I know this is crazy speculation but if Benitez did go, I'd love to see Martin O Neill come in. A great manager who can get the best of a team lacking in great talent.

The Muppet

Can I ask the liverpool fans posting here a genuine question, honestly not trying to wind anyone up.

Which of the players in the squad for tonights game are good enough to play for your club?

kenon

Headshot wrote: »

being honest I only saw the highlights but it seemed ye were very poor, no motivation, just the heads always dropping

but im a firm believer in rafa and im re-starting that campaign



we'll march and march for that man

I'll support that!

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's get Trigger as a manager for a laugh. At least I'd get entertainment value.

I'll support that aswel!!

Sure get Barnes as assistant manager.

spockety

The Muppet wrote: »

Can I ask the liverpool fans posting here a genuine question, honestly not trying to wind anyone up.

Which of the players in the squad for tonights game are good enough to play for your club?

Good enough for the first team:

Reina
Carra
Agger
Skrtl
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Aurelio
Gerrard

Good enough for the squad:

Insua (had to think about this one, I think he's ALMOST good enough for the above list)
Ngog (good 4th choice 'up and coming' striker)
Kelly
Lucas (Yes he IS good enough to be a member of the SQUAD)

Probably hasn't worked out for the squad:

Voronin (though I do not think he's crap).

mike65

spockety, no Johnson? Oh edit - Johnson not in tonights squad.

kenon

kenon wrote: »

Sure get Barnes as assistant manager.

Can't go wrong here. Poor Trigger doesn't have a pupil in his head.

**** sake Liverpool, I broke my chain when Lyon scored somehow. Argh.

K-9

The Muppet wrote: »

Can I ask the liverpool fans posting here a genuine question, honestly not trying to wind anyone up.

Which of the players in the squad for tonights game are good enough to play for your club?

Skyrtel & Babel when on form.

K-9

spockety wrote: »

Good enough for the first team:

Reina
Carra
Agger
Skrtl
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Aurelio
Gerrard

Good enough for the squad:

Insua (had to think about this one, I think he's ALMOST good enough for the above list)
Ngog (good 4th choice 'up and coming' striker)
Kelly
Lucas (Yes he IS good enough to be a member of the SQUAD)

Probably hasn't worked out for the squad:

Voronin (though I do not think he's crap).

It's funny how nearly everybody was raving about Insua until a couple of weeks ago. Don't think we can get away with him and Johnson.

Mental Mickey

spockety wrote: »

Good enough for the first team:

Reina
Carra
Agger
Skrtl
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Aurelio
Gerrard

Good enough for the squad:

Insua (had to think about this one, I think he's ALMOST good enough for the above list)
Ngog (good 4th choice 'up and coming' striker)
Kelly
Lucas (Yes he IS good enough to be a member of the SQUAD)

Probably hasn't worked out for the squad:

Voronin (though I do not think he's crap).

IMO, Ngog & Lucas are not good enough to be members of the squad. Neither is Voronin. They haven't produced it at all. Was listening to Sky Sports earlier, and apparently, Rafa has bought 69 players, and sold 67 since he took charge. Ok, some of it was dead wood left over from Houllier's time in charge, but some of the players(I've named the 3 biggest culprits above)he has brought in are just plain crap. IMO, he hasn't given Ryan Babel enough chances to prove himself......he's a good player who needs a run of games to build his confidence.

flahavaj

K-9 wrote: »

Babel when on form.

When does or has this happened?:pac:

The Muppet

K-9 wrote: »

Skyrtel & Babel when on form.

Is that all?

K-9

flahavaj wrote: »

When does or has this happened?:pac:

I'll give you that one. Would help if Rafa would give him a chance over Voronin and take Kuyt of now and again! This season is Babel's last chance.

spockety

mike65 wrote: »

spockety, no Johnson?

Wasn't in tonight's squad!!!

Though he get an obvious first team berth when fit!

To expand to cover the entire squad, I would say the following are good enough to be in a Championship winning first team:

Reina
Carra
Skrtl
Agger
Johnson
Aurelio
Mascherano
Benayoun
Torres
Kuyt
Gerrard

Good enough for the squad:

Cavalieri (rarely required, adequate backup)
Martin Kelly (on the brief evidence so far), 4th choice centre back, 2nd choice right back now for me.
Insua (excellent backup left back)
Riera (above average left winger, definitely good enough for the squad)
Lucas (marmite, but good enough as a 3rd/4th choice central midfielder)
Ngog (4th choice striker)

The squad list we have is huge, but if you look at it from a core of 22, there are some players currently in our 22 who I believe haven't made the grade and should be shipped out. Dossena, Babel, Voronin, El Zhar, etc. Then there are lots of other young players who have great potential and should be left knocking around for cameos.. Spearing, Plessis, Pacheco, Nemeth, etc,. etc.

So I think if you assume Gerrard and Torres are both strikers, we are missing a 3rd choice striker. It can't be a kid, but it can't be someone in their prime (they don't like sitting on the bench), so we need to find a more 'mature' striker who will still do an above average job. Ngog is the 4th choice.

I think on the left we have Benayoun 1st choice, Riera 2nd.
On the right we have Kuyt 1st choice, and I think there is an opening for a 2nd choice right winger to be brought in.
In the middle we presumabely have Masch and Aquilani as first choice, with Lucas as 3rd/4th choice, so we still need another above average central midfielder I feel. Maybe spearing will end up doing it, but right now I can't judge, so I think we could do with a very very good midfielder in his prime to come in there.
Left back we have Aurelio 1st choice, Insua 2nd choice.
Centre we have Agger/Skrtl/Carra as 1st/2nd choice quality, we have also brought in Krygiakos but I haven't seen enough to judge whether or not he is good enough to be in the 22 man first team squad. So maybe we still need to address that.
Right back Johnson 1st choice, Kelly 2nd choice. Degen should be sold.

So we are missing a very good striker happy to sit on the bench, a very good central midfielder, a very good centre back, and a very good right winger. All who will be happy to play 2nd fiddle.

That's my opinion.

So I make it that through injury, we played tonight with only 6 players who I would say are of good enough quality to be automatic 1st team starters. Put Johnson, Gerrard, Torres, Aquilani (presumably), and Aurelio in there to start and I think you have a different complexion on a match like tonight.

Headshot

rafa substitution decision was mad tonight, laughable stuff

(excluding the injury worries)

Bubs101

If Liverpool did sack Rafa who could they actually get? Considering their fairly strapped for cash surely they'd be looking at an unemployed guy which would mean one of Klinsmann, Mancini or Rijkaard or maybe Bilic if he resigns which is hardly a great choice

K-9

Mental Mickey wrote: »

IMO, Ngog & Lucas are not good enough to be members of the squad. Neither is Voronin. They haven't produced it at all. Was listening to Sky Sports earlier, and apparently, Rafa has bought 69 players, and sold 67 since he took charge. Ok, some of it was dead wood left over from Houllier's time in charge, but some of the players(I've named the 3 biggest culprits above)he has brought in are just plain crap. IMO, he hasn't given Ryan Babel enough chances to prove himself......he's a good player who needs a run of games to build his confidence.

NGog hasn't had much chance to prove himself. Did ok tonight considering the crap team performance.

On the 69 players, I think this one has been answered on this thread. Have a look!

The Muppet wrote: »

Is that all?

Well, you are forgetting Torres, Johnson and Aquillani are out.

NGog and Kelly are squad players. Kelly did well.

Iago

that's a great post spockety

The Muppet

Iago wrote: »

that's a great post spockety

I agree,

mayordenis

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start

Reina

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel/Carra
Aurelio

Kuyt
Aquilani
Masherano
Benayoun

Gerrard
Torres

then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

Mental Mickey

mayordenis wrote: »

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start

Reina

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel/Carra
Aurelio

Kuyt
Aquilani
Masherano
Benayoun

Gerrard
Torres

then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

I'd swap Benny for Gerrard in midfield and put Babel up front. Will Aquilani be fit in time(presuming he doesn't get injured in his reserves appearance)?

Nalz

I dont think Rafa should be sacked. In fairness who is out there to take over?

LOL at the Trigger comments. Say one thing about him, he's worked for skysports once or twice and has been a decent enough commentator and analyst! Ya never know!!

mike65 wrote: »

"A guy called manutd agrees with another Utd fan about Liverpool" shocker

Ha why does things like this need to be pointed out?

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

If in 2 weeks time we can have this team start

Reina

Johnson
Agger
Skrtel/Carra
Aurelio

Kuyt
Aquilani
Masherano
Benayoun

Gerrard
Torres

then I think all 30 pages of this can be deleted.

It's a squad game.