Government jets cost 4500 euros per hour when they are not in use.

deadhead13

Mary Harney in an attempt to justify her foreign travel costs claims that to have a Government jet on the ground costs 4,500 per hour. We appear to have 2 of them in use - a Gulf stream jet which costs 7,890 euros per hour to fly and a lear jet which is some what less expensive at 2,950 euros per hour.

Surely any perceived benefit of having the jets is completely outweighted by the cost. Will O'Dea's defence of said jets - "The service offers a degree of privacy for the conduct of offical business which is not available on commericial flights". Some price to pay for a bit of privacy.

asdasd

Most countries have such planes for their heads of State. Not the biggest worry,

deadhead13

asdasd wrote: »

Most countries have such planes for their heads of State. Not the biggest worry,

I wasn't suggesting it was the biggest worry. It just seems excessive and perhaps unnecessary.

MeatProduct

There's something to be said for our representatives having to use the same means of transport as the rest of us. Gives them to chance to discuss and interact with the people they are supposedly representing.

Nick

MeatProduct

Additionally, I really don't care what other heads of state would think about the Irish government not having a government jet. I appreciate that there are times when a speedy transit is required for some of our politicians and for these occasions I'm sure a plane could be rented or some other arrangement be made.

Nick

maxwell smart

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember that Tony Blair and now Gordon Brown fly British Airways when going abroad....I'm sure Aer Lingus would love the cash from the government. Or is it a case they only use the jet when there is no scheduled flight to where they are going?

Dannyboy83

maxwell smart wrote: »

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember that Tony Blair and now Gordon Brown fly British Airways when going abroad....I'm sure Aer Lingus would love the cash from the government. Or is it a case they only use the jet when there is no scheduled flight to where they are going?

Well, O'Dea and Coughlan flew to Texas to meet Michael Dell.
They could have taken a trip with Aer Lingus costing €1000 each.

Instead, both flew to Texas using the private government jet, Gulfstream IV. They flew from Baldonnel to Austin, Texas, via Knock and Bangor (Maine).
The time spent on board the aircraft was 20hr 50min, and at €7,890 per hour to operate the aircraft, the trip cost the taxpayer €164,375.


Now, a FFer could defend the semantics about sending the two stupidest, inept Irish politicans to meet Michael Dell, in order to save 2000 jobs in Limerick.
Couldn't defend the costs tho.

murphaph

Tough one to call but I think an island nation needs a government jet. I'm sure a lot of that quoted cost figure is depreciation. They quote a headline figure of x million for the jet and then claim it costs x thousand an hour when in fact it's the depreciation of the x million per hour they are quoting. It's like saying that my telly cost me 500 quid and 18 cents a day for the next 8 years. It's not correct. I'm sure that staff costs and maintenance surrounding the jet don't come close to 4,500 an hour tbh.

Anyway, the problem isn't with the jet, it's with the use of it when it's not needed. If there are sensitive negotiations ongoing in Brussels then take the jet. If you're going to open a FAS off licence during the Cannes film festival in Florida then don't.

Quite why we need 2 government jets in another matter. I suggest that is a waste but I know the gulfsteam has ongoing reliability issues and the Learjet has been considered too small or something.

Dannyboy83

murphaph wrote: »

Tough one to call but I think an island nation needs a government jet. I'm sure a lot of that quoted cost figure is depreciation. They quote a headline figure of x million for the jet and then claim it costs x thousand an hour when in fact it's the depreciation of the x million per hour they are quoting. It's like saying that my telly cost me 500 quid and 18 cents a day for the next 8 years. It's not correct. I'm sure that staff costs and maintenance surrounding the jet don't come close to 4,500 an hour tbh.

As far as I'm aware, the costs quoted are strictly the running costs.
There are extra costs not quoted such as when the Aircraft is parked in Dallas airport awaiting the return of Frankenstein and Mighty Mouse.

Quite why we need 2 government jets in another matter. I suggest that is a waste but I know the gulfsteam has ongoing reliability issues and the Learjet has been considered too small or something.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Learjet doesn't have a ****ter onboard, hence the Gulfstream investment.

Taxipete29

I have to agree that this all sounds a bit sensational. Unless I am mistakan if those planes are housed at Baldonnel then they are maintained by our own Air Force. What is the breakdown of this €4500 per hour??

Kinky Slinky

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.
These are the people representing our country; you can't really expect our ministers to buy their clothes form charity shops, fly on cheap Ryan air flights. People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

murphaph

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.
These are the people representing our country; you can't really expect our ministers to buy their clothes form charity shops, fly on cheap Ryan air flights. People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

And rightly so. There is a balance to strike. These clowns (unfortunately for us) represent the Irish nation and equally unfortunately we have to ensure that our country isn't a laughing stock, but also that these bloodsuckers don't take advantage of that. A difficult balancing act that it seems we can't rely on these politicians to act responsibly with our resources.

deadhead13

Taxipete29 wrote: »

What is the breakdown of this €4500 per hour??

She didn't give one. What she said was - "We either have a government jet or we don't. For the Government jet to be actually on the ground costs 4,500 euros per hour. For the Government to take Ministers to meetings costs 7,300 an hour. So even by virtue of having a jet it costs a considerable amount"

MeatProduct

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.

Kinky Slinky, I don't believe we can tackle issues if we just accept things because that's how they are elsewhere. Of course the people in power would set up these structures so they have a nice cosy set up.

So now it seems to be quite normal for our representitives to travel in luxury and we accept it as normal but why should we? How can they expect to represent us if they do not live in a similar way as the vast majority of the people they represent. It seems like common sense to me.

These are the people representing our country; you can't really expect our ministers to buy their clothes form charity shops, fly on cheap Ryan air flights. People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

You are being a bit sensational here. I don't recall anyone saying they should go to charity shops or driving an oldish car to meetings.

I certainly do expect my representatives to be honest and genuine and that means far more to me than the lavish bonuses they currently have. Why not fly with Aer Lingus or Ryanair? Are we going to lose support from the EU for that? How does it affect us economically other than saving us money?

Nick

deadhead13

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.

The difference is, Ireland has to make a 4 billion euro cut in public spending next year and 3 billion the following year, in an effort to ensure we can continue to borrow money to pay for day-to-day spending. Maybe a Government jet is a luxury we can not afford.

Thoie

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

To be honest I wouldn't give a **** if they turned up to meetings giving each other piggybacks, wearing dressing gowns and carrying a plastic bag from Dunnes. I think their words and actions in the meetings are far more important. If I go visit the Queen of Denmark do you reckon she'll be twitching the net curtains to check out my car? If I have an appointment, do you think she'd refuse to meet me if I turned up punctually, but had come on a bus?

Cars don't disintegrate after a year - or even after 5 years. There is no need for public officials to arrive in the latest model. Half the country manages to get from A to B just fine by public transport, or in second-hand cars.

Perhaps if government officials travelled the same way as everyone else, there'd be more of a push on to improve standards of public transport.

Manic Moran

Something is wrong with that number. E4,500 an hour is almost E40m per year.

The G-IV is an expensive jet, but it doesn't depreciate that much in a year. Even accounting for the salaries of the pilots and mechanics and steward, and the tea they're drinking while not flying, and the oil which leaks from the engines as they sit there and get overhauled on their annual services with the replacement of the various sub-components like O-rings which need changing if the aircraft is used or not, and the heater which is used to heat the hangar whilst the mechanic is drinking tea.... There's no way that's going to tally E40m.

NTM

PCPhoto

Manic Moran wrote: »

Something is wrong with that number. E4,500 an hour is almost E40m.

The G-IV is an expensive jet, but it doesn't depreciate that much in a year. Even accounting for the salaries of the pilots and mechanics and steward, and the tea they're drinking while not flying, and the oil which leaks from the engines as they sit there and get overhauled on their annual services with the replacement of the various sub-components like O-rings which need changing if the aircraft is used or not, and the heater which is used to heat the hangar whilst the mechanic is drinking tea.... There's no way that's going to tally E40m.

NTM

you are forgetting that its OUR government that are paying - of course they'll pay it.

PCPhoto

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.
These are the people representing our country; you can't really expect our ministers to buy their clothes form charity shops, fly on cheap Ryan air flights. People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

so... just 'cos the other governments are doing it - we should follow suit ?
- I STRONGLY disagree, we don't want to be a nation of sheep, although given who we have in charge wouldnt surprise me.

let me put it in a different way.... if you took the bus to work every day and suddenly the bus company decided the route wasnt profitable - would you still make it into work ?

The method of travel to "conferences" or "important meetings with other heads of state" should not matter....what IS important is that they are intelligent enough to perform in their job and excell on a national and international stage..

Personally I think our politicans should be given X amount of money per year and they pay their own travel costs - how many will attend these "important" meetings then ? and how many will opt for private transport over public transport.

deadhead13

There is a more detailed article about the use of the Governmet jet in todays Sunday tribune. Transporting Government ministers aboard the Government jet over the past 4 years has cost the taxpayer 10.6million euros. I don't know if that figure includes the daily maintenance costs of the jets.

http://www.tribune.ie/

maxwell smart

How can anybody be suprised by this? We (a country of 4+million) have more state cars than Germany!(A country of some 80+ million). In fact, our government buys more German cars than their government!!

Kinky Slinky

deadhead13 wrote: »

The difference is, Ireland has to make a 4 billion euro cut in public spending next year and 3 billion the following year, in an effort to ensure we can continue to borrow money to pay for day-to-day spending. Maybe a Government jet is a luxury we can not afford.

It’s not going to make a huge improvement in the grand scheme of things if we sell the jet, the way I see it is that our ministers are representing the Irish brand and if they don't paint a positive image across the world I would feel that they weren’t doing their job. We are lucky enough to be a 1st world country and I think we should at least act like we are one. The media paint such a negative image of Ireland all the time, the recession will be over in a year or two and all the excessive spending news stories will be forgotten about .I didn’t hear people complaining when the jets were bought. The media just print these stories to upset people with money problems

deadhead13

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

It’s not going to make a huge improvement in the grand scheme of things if we sell the jet, the way I see it is that our ministers are representing the Irish brand and if they don't paint a positive image across the world I would feel that they weren’t doing their job. We are lucky enough to be a 1st world country and I think we should at least act like we are one. The media paint such a negative image of Ireland all the time, the recession will be over in a year or two and all the excessive spending news stories will be forgotten about .I didn’t hear people complaining when the jets were bought. The media just print these stories to upset people with money problems

Mary Harneys Government jet bill over a 2 year period 600,000 euros, John O'donoghue's foriegn travel bill over a 7 year period 750,000...etc...etc all the little things add up "in the grand scheme of things". Travelling business class on a commercial airline is a faction of the cost of using the Government jet and our Ministers doing so would have absolutely no affect on how Ireland is viewed abroad.

I'm afraid I don't share your optimism on our economic outlook. Maybe using the strictest definition of the term we might be out of recession in a year or two, but it will take a hell of a lot longer to climb out of the hole we are currently in.

The public outrage over politicians excessive expenses and sense of entitlement was not caused by the media. They are simply reporting on behaviour of the politicians and it is all backed up by FOI documention.

Idbatterim

why cant a private jet be hired?

Manic Moran

Idbatterim wrote: »

why cant a private jet be hired?

I'll bet you the tendering process would be ridiculous. "Sean, we need to travel on Tuesday." "OK Pat, I'll put out the request for tender for services as it's over a E10,000 contract, we will have bids in after the mandatory two weeks, we will then conduct the review, that'll take a week, select final competitors, submit the modified requirements for reconsideration, give them two weeks, review the final submissions, select the winning bidder, then wait a week to see if there are any appeals. If there are, we'll run the appeal process, if the decision is approved it'll just be a week, if rejected, we have to restart the process. We should have the airplane chartered by December 16th."

I mean, it took, what, six weeks between when the Malahide rail bridge collapsed and when the buses contracted to run the road replacement actually went into service?

NTM

jmayo

deadhead13 wrote: »

Mary Harney in an attempt to justify her foreign travel costs claims that to have a Government jet on the ground costs 4,500 per hour. We appear to have 2 of them in use - a Gulf stream jet which costs 7,890 euros per hour to fly and a lear jet which is some what less expensive at 2,950 euros per hour.

Surely any perceived benefit of having the jets is completely outweighted by the cost. Will O'Dea's defence of said jets - "The service offers a degree of privacy for the conduct of offical business which is not available on commericial flights". Some price to pay for a bit of privacy.

Well they do cost, even if they don't fly.
But as Manic stated it is kinda high ?

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, the costs quoted are strictly the running costs.
There are extra costs not quoted such as when the Aircraft is parked in Dallas airport awaiting the return of Frankenstein and Mighty Mouse.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Learjet doesn't have a ****ter onboard, hence the Gulfstream investment.

I wonder what they paid in landing fees and parking fees during that little trip.
Are we sure they diodn't divert to Orlando or New Orleans for a bit of I & I ?

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

I hate these threads, when people go on about how much money the ministers spend and how this money could be used on more important things. It’s the same thing around the whole world and I don't see why Ireland should be any different.
These are the people representing our country; you can't really expect our ministers to buy their clothes form charity shops, fly on cheap Ryan air flights. People would complain if a minister showed up to important head of state meetings in a 97 Opel Astra

Ah sure that must be why they are trying to get rid of the Beechcraft Super King Air.
It must be so embarassing to turn up in an old turbo prop aircarft :rolleyes:

BTW do you live in Cahirciveen by any chance ?

Kinky Slinky wrote: »

It’s not going to make a huge improvement in the grand scheme of things if we sell the jet, the way I see it is that our ministers are representing the Irish brand and if they don't paint a positive image across the world I would feel that they weren’t doing their job. We are lucky enough to be a 1st world country and I think we should at least act like we are one. The media paint such a negative image of Ireland all the time, the recession will be over in a year or two and all the excessive spending news stories will be forgotten about .I didn’t hear people complaining when the jets were bought. The media just print these stories to upset people with money problems

Ah sure nothing makes a huge improvement so why bother raining in the excessive spending.

BTW which cumann are you in, because every sentence reads like the drivel spouted by some ffer at some stage as an excuse for the outlandish expenses.
It is the medias fault for being negative, nobody complained during the boom, oh wait some of us actually did.

Jeeze if you were really bothered about the image of Ireland the last thing you would want is any of the ff/pd muppets representing us.
They are a fu**ing inbred crowd of muppets who jet around the world at St Patricks day to avail of the local 5 star hospitality courtesy of us the Irish taxpayers.

Then we had gombeens like O'Dea and Coughlan negotitating with Dell to save jobs.
Did someone explain to mary what a computer was beforehand ?

sceptre

jmayo wrote: »

BTW do you live in Cahirciveen by any chance ?

Not necessary, leave it out.

deadhead13

jmayo wrote: »

But as Manic stated it is kinda high ?

I agree with him. It is the figure Mary Harney gave, but I don't know how she came by it. It couldn't possibly be 4,500 euros an hour for 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

mikemac

Time is money

To give an example if our Minister for Agriculture is needed in Brussels immediately to secure tens of millions in funding and grants then yep, the price of a private flight is worth every cent.
Someone may post that there are several flights a day from Ireland to Brussels, hey I didn't look up timetables

The same might be said if the Minister for Trade, Enterprise and Employment is needed to secure a new employer for Ireland.
Though this didn't work with Dell!

There are times when it's needed.
But the vast majority of flights can be handled commercially.

donkey balls

they could allways use this company http://www.netjetseurope.com/eng/your-timetable

rsom

Can anyone tell me how much it will cost to send the Govt jet to Khartoum to collect and bring home Sharon Cummins, the Goal worker who was released by kidnappers.

Thanks