Fur trade in ireland

Absurdum

Festus wrote: »

maybe you should work in a sewage treatment plant for an entirely vegetarian community for a few weeks.
It's not the smell - granted it's worse with meat, especially raw meat eaters, it's the volume and density due to excess fibre in the diet. Ever seen how much a horse generates? or a Cow?

Interesting you should point to cow **** as an argument against a vegetarian diet. Maybe it's stating the obvious to ask what those cows are being used for....
I'd also like you to provide an example of an entirely vegetarian community in the devolped world.

70% of our waste is agricultural link

NWR 2004 p.51: 60.6% of agricultural waste is from cattle manure and slurry; 30.5% is from soiled water (dairying) and 4% is from pig slurry.

Festus wrote: »

Eating too much of the wrong time of animal protein is not good but there are certain nutrients not available from the plant kingdom so unless you have shares or ownership of some dodgy food supplement pill company your argument that eating meat is entirely habitual is fundamentalist vegan.

Some nutrients can be difficult to obtain (Vitamin B12 for example) but to state that "certain nutrients not available from the plant kingdom" is false.

Festus wrote: »

I was thinking in terms of digestibility and other considerations. A bean does not have the same protein content as an equivalent measure of meat.

You're forgetting one important fact about meat protein. It doesn't just grow on trees or plants, does it? Have a look at the environmental effects of meat production and then compare them. David McWilliams alluded to the amount of resources needed in meat production on Addicted To Money on RTE1 last night.

Have a look at this for some information on beans as a protein source.

digiology

Festus wrote: »

maybe you should work in a sewage treatment plant for an entirely vegetarian community for a few weeks.
It's not the smell - granted it's worse with meat, especially raw meat eaters, it's the volume and density due to excess fibre in the diet. Ever seen how much a horse generates? or a Cow?

emm, my ****s are just fine I doubt this is a problem in general lol

Festus wrote: »

Eating too much of the wrong time of animal protein is not good but there are certain nutrients not available from the plant kingdom so unless you have shares or ownership of some dodgy food supplement pill company your argument that eating meat is entirely habitual is fundamentalist vegan.

Oh yeah, certain nutrients like what?

By saying meat eating is habitual I was trying to throw meat eaters a bone, people are reluctant to break habits and its compounded by the fact that business caters mostly for meat eaters.
Given the fact that its not as easy to change ones diet and human nature is such that groups reinforce behavior that is inconsistent with any kind of rational moral framework (this is well documented), I withhold my judgement to a degree.
Its also worth mentioning Christians in that they have some excuse although they are dependent on premises that I don't agree with.

ceret

meoklmrk91 wrote: »

The ''little cows and lambs'' are killed because we need food.

Pleanty of vegetarians can live quite fine with no meat. Ergo we don't need to kill calves and lambs.

What about leather? Is leather OK to wear?

Festus

Absurdum wrote: »

Some nutrients can be difficult to obtain (Vitamin B12 for example) but to state that "certain nutrients not available from the plant kingdom" is false.

my error - should have been "not easily available"

Thank you for pointing that out

Absurdum

Festus wrote: »

my error - should have been "not easily available"

it is readily available in a vegan diet
http://www.vegansociety.com/food/nutrition/b12/

Festus

Absurdum wrote: »

You're forgetting one important fact about meat protein. It doesn't just grow on trees or plants, does it? Have a look at the environmental effects of meat production and then compare them. David McWilliams alluded to the amount of resources needed in meat production on Addicted To Money on RTE1 last night.

Have a look at this for some information on beans as a protein source.

I'm not forgetting it and I didn't mention it. I agree meat production is expensive and the way we consume meat is detrimental to the environment. Where do you think Brazilian beef comes from? What needed to be cleared to produce it?

I would love to see McDonalds, Burger King and all the the other suppliers of cheap meat put out of business as much as I would like to see continental factory trawlers banned from Irish waters. I would like to see meat becoming a once a week or once a month luxury because I don't believe we need the number of cows on the planet. A few for dairy and kill off the unneccessary bulls for beef, leather, glue, sausage skins and secondary school lab material.

What I don't like to see are fundamentalist vegetarians using meat and fur as examples of what they see as being wrong with the majority of society and peddling their concept that vegetarianism is better. It's not - it's a choice and nothing more. It might be a choice for health reasons and that is valid given the way our meat chain is contaminated with various drugs and unethical feed systems.

Humans are omnivores and are capable of eating both meat and plants. It is balancing the system that is causing problems.
If we went exclusively vegetarian how much land would that require? Already the requirement for bio-fuel and soya beans (for vegetarians) is leading to more deforestation in Latin America.

As for fur - if you can't eat it but them breed like rabbits by all means cloth yourself with them.

I saw a bunch of students, presumably from TCD but I could be wrong, outside their local fur shop chanting away recently. Three of them had leather jackets on.

One of them might have been horse but it was the irony that got me.

Apip99

10 Cents worth, Myself and wife have been veggies for about 8 months now, and we are fit and healthy, in fact feeling better than ever. Yes there is some loss of protein, but you can balance this with a proper diet, and adding in other substitutes like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement) I was a savage meat eater, and found that it was like another poster said, it was just a habit. BUT each to their own.

Festus

ceret wrote: »

Pleanty of vegetarians can live quite fine with no meat. Ergo we don't need to kill calves and lambs.

What about leather? Is leather OK to wear?

You don't have to kill anything to wear leather. It can be sourced from animals that died a natural death.

Festus

Apip99 wrote: »

10 Cents worth, Myself and wife have been veggies for about 8 months now, and we are fit and healthy, in fact feeling better than ever. Yes there is some loss of protein, but you can balance this with a proper diet, and adding in other substitutes like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement) I was a savage meat eater, and found that it was like another poster said, it was just a habit. BUT each to their own.

It's not habit but it is each to their own.

What you eat is a combination of choice, availability and cost.

Absurdum

Festus wrote: »

If we went exclusively vegetarian how much land would that require? Already the requirement for bio-fuel and soya beans (for vegetarians) is leading to more deforestation in Latin America.

I'm not entirely sure what the rest of your post was getting at, since most of it seemed to me to be good reasons for going veggie

I read in a book before that there is enough arable land in Britain to feed 250 million people on a vegetarian diet - I would assume that Ireland could sustain even more proportionately due to our far lower population density.

Most soybean production is for use as animal feed, not for making tofu and soya milk!

Apip99

Festus wrote: »

It's not habit but it is each to their own.

What you eat is a combination of choice, availability and cost.

Well, Yes, I made the choice, my diet is available anywhere I shop and Eat out, and cost, well we have more than halved our weekly shopping bill on food.

Its all plus plus in our eyes, but as said each to their own.

Festus

Absurdum wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what the rest of your post was getting at, since most of it seemed to me to be good reasons for going veggie

I read in a book before that there is enough arable land in Britain to feed 250 million people on a vegetarian diet - I would assume that Ireland could sustain even more proportionately due to our far lower population density.

Most soybean production is for use as animal feed, not for making tofu and soya milk!

It's not an argument for going veggie, it's an argument to look at current consumption and balance it.

We don't need to eat the quantities of meat that we do and for those who choose not to eat meat well and good. However there are some of us who enjoy assimilating proteins from animal or fish sources.

As far as animal feed does - what's wrong with letting animals ear what they would eat if they were not subjected to human husbandry?

Both the meat and milk from a cow fed on grass is far more flavourful and nutritions than from a cow fed on soy products. It's also better for the environment.

Festus

steamjetjoe wrote: »

Ok I have a solution:) Why dont we introduce mink & other furry animals into the food chain here, and when we finish carving up the animal we can use its fur, guilt free:D

Getting back to the OP point, I believe this is no time to be worrying about animals welfare when the country is in such a financial state.

Mainly because they taste like shyte :P

And yes - there are bigger worries than a few coats. Of course most fur animals are carnivous, the mink in particular, and they can consume a lot of meat and dairy products. No need for them to be competing with us for dwindling resources.

Festus

Just curious - does anyone object to making burgers and coats from roadkill?

and if so would you ban motorized vehicles to protect the animals from such unnecessary harm?

Festus

daithicarr wrote: »

I was just reading their how they are banning fur farming in Ireland, and thus reducing jobs and money available to the citizens of this state in a time when we can least afford it.
Fur farming is a industry worth 1.5 billion, if it is carried out in a humane manner with proper guidelines, what makes it different from the raising and killing of other animals.
perhaps we shouldn't kill the poor little calf's and lambs too ?

There is an argument that suggests we should only kill poor little calves and lambs for food and keep the adults alive to produce more poor little calves and lambs for food.
One of the big problems with beef production is the amount of time, space and resources required to grow a full sized beefer.
Mutton is difficult to get these days but lamb is easy - veal is still hard to get though. For some reason we (meat eaters) have a preferred taste for mature bovine.

Time was I wouldn't eat veal because I thought it was cruel. Now it's my first choice because it is more environmentally friendly.

Apip99

Festus wrote: »

Just curious - does anyone object to making burgers and coats from roadkill?

and if so would you ban motorized vehicles to protect the animals from such unnecessary harm?

I think that upon finding road kill, then it should be given a proper burial in an animal sacuarty.

Ok, to be serious, you've raised a good point. Lets say that Mr Festus had a scarf made from road kill, and looked a million dollars, and I saw him in his road kill scarf and thought, I wanna get me one of those, but I find no road kill, and there for go catch me a fox and kill it to make me a scarf.

Mr Festus was only using an opportunity that was laid before him, but has inadvertently killed a fox....

Festus

Apip99 wrote: »

I think that upon finding road kill, then it should be given a proper burial in an animal sacuarty.

Ok, to be serious, you've raised a good point. Lets say that Mr Festus had a scarf made from road kill, and looked a million dollars, and I saw him in his road kill scarf and thought, I wanna get me one of those, but I find no road kill, and there for go catch me a fox and kill it to make me a scarf.

Mr Festus was only using an opportunity that was laid before him, but has inadvertently killed a fox....

That would be Mrs Festus in the furs. I prefer my scarves made from silk - all those poor wee silkworms denuded and stripped at such a vulnerable time in their short lives...

Once attended a road kill barbecue in the Fleur in Sandwich, Kent - was subject of a BBC foodie program. Not bad if a little on the gamey side. The squirrel was a but crunchy but as I understand it was one of the grey interlopers so even the vegetarians were joining in

Freegan is the way to go

digiology

Festus wrote: »

Just curious - does anyone object to making burgers and coats from roadkill?

and if so would you ban motorized vehicles to protect the animals from such unnecessary harm?

I wouldn't object. There is nothing inherently wrong with eating meat, it is the consequences of consumption in the general case.

The implication with your second question is that because there is inevitably going to be unintended suffering caused by our actions such as driving that the suffering caused by consuming meat in which the suffering is a much more direct consequence of our actions is justified.
Vehicles kills humans too, that doesn't mean intentional killing of humans is justified in general.

You're way out of you're way out of your depth here, if you need a quick fix to your thinking try watching some Peter Singer interviews on youtube?

Festus

digiology wrote: »

The implication with your second question is that because there is inevitably going to be unintended suffering caused by our actions such as driving that the suffering caused by consuming meat in which the suffering is a much more direct consequence of our actions is justified.
Vehicles kills humans too, that doesn't mean intentional killing of humans is justified in general.

You're way out of you're way out of your depth here, if you need a quick fix to your thinking try watching some Peter Singer interviews on youtube?

Read it again - I'm not implying what you think I am implying nor am I trying to justify anything you think I am trying to justify.

Some choose to eat meat and wear the remnants - others choose their prefered alternative. It's all choice. For some it is strictly utilitarian. Try telling a traditional Canadian Inuit that killing, eating and then wearing seal products is wrong and they might have something to say about your thinking. I think you'll find Singer would support them before supporting you.

In perusing You Tube for Singer I found Frankie Boyles vegetarian option more suitable to my thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD8cL9UhccM

BroomBurner

Festus wrote: »

Mutton is difficult to get these days but lamb is easy - veal is still hard to get though. For some reason we (meat eaters in Ireland) have a preferred taste for mature bovine.

Time was I wouldn't eat veal because I thought it was cruel. Now it's my first choice because it is more environmentally friendly.

FYP, veal is widely available throughout Europe, it seems that in Ireland though, veal (as well as seafood, to a lesser extent) is not widely eaten.

For veal though, always choose grass-fed (pink meat, I think, as opposed to white), as at least they got to play around outside for a bit.

On the fur-trade thing, sorry but no matter what kind of an economic hole we're in, Ireland doesn't need a fur trade.

Festus

BroomBurner wrote: »

FYP, veal is widely available throughout Europe, it seems that in Ireland though, veal (as well as seafood, to a lesser extent) is not widely eaten.

For veal though, always choose grass-fed (pink meat, I think, as opposed to white), as at least they got to play around outside for a bit.

On the fur-trade thing, sorry but no matter what kind of an economic hole we're in, Ireland doesn't need a fur trade.

Cheers, If I can find it I only ever eat the pink - I heard the white is because they're locked in the dark and fed artificially. Can't agree with that.

As for seafood - lobster was once the cheapest food in Dublin, about a century ago, them and oysters. Now these bottom feeders are the preserve of the top feeders. Was that marketing?

Festus

BroomBurner wrote: »

On the fur-trade thing, sorry but no matter what kind of an economic hole we're in, Ireland doesn't need a fur trade.

Whether we need a fur trade or not is a different question - in this economic situation do we need to be putting people out of jobs by destroying a viable business because some members of a certain party find it objectionable.

I saw it discussed on Kenny's new vehicle when the Greens and FF were having their little chat and I thought it was ridiculous that some Green supporters, and maybe members, saw only the politicial opportunity to do something for their animal agenda. That person was put properly back in her place by the guy representing the homeless.

Animal welfare concerns are all well and good but while we have increasing homelessness, poverty and unemployment in the human community we should address the issues of homo sapiens first before we try saving a few minks from becoming waterproofing material or show off adornments.

peasant

Festus wrote: »

we should address the issues of homo sapiens first before we try saving a few minks from becoming waterproofing material or show off adornments.

It's not a question of the mink or foxes being killed for our benefit ...it's a question of how they live.

And then the other question is ...are we just the top of the food chain or are we actually human / humane ?

And yes, there are many other areas where animal welfare needs to be improved, but you got to start somewhere ... stopping the worst excess seems like a good starting point to me.

Festus

peasant wrote: »

It's not a question of the mink or foxes being killed for our benefit ...it's a question of how they live.

And then the other question is ...are we just the top of the food chain or are we actually human / humane ?

And yes, there are many other areas where animal welfare needs to be improved, but you got to start somewhere ... stopping the worst excess seems like a good starting point to me.

Agreed but are animal welfare activists justified in using any opportunity to further their agenda?

For example - the anti-vivisectionists are constantly badgering the pharmaceutical companies about drug testing in animals with no regard for the law. They see the LD50 tests as inhumane but the law requires that this test be carried out.

I agree that there is a moral element to fur farming, and maybe fur trapping, and I certainly disagree with their use as luxury items. Originally furs were a necessity in cold climates in the absence sufficient quantities of fig leaves. Today it is as offensive as ivory keys on a Steinway.

If we shut down the mink and fox farms what do we do with the employees and what to we do with the animals?

peasant

Festus wrote: »

If we shut down the mink and fox farms what do we do with the employees and what to we do with the animals?

I don't know the exact numbers but there are only 5 or so fur farms in Ireland ...the number of employees wouldn't amount to much.

As for the animals ...killing them humanely is about the only thing you can do with them. You certainly can't release them into the wild (like some animal activists did before) and they're not suitable as pets or anything else really.