Future of boards.ie debate stuff..

Wibbs

Earthhorse wrote: »

I look forward to this.

Ditto

Orion

tbh wrote: »

I'm worried that boards is trying too hard to be bigger than it's boots. I'm worried that by making it more popular, there's a bigger concentration of posters for whom boards has no value, and that in turns dilutes the content and experience for those of us who do value it.

I agree and disagree with this. I disagree with the bigger than it's boots part but while I recognise it's a business that has to pay for itself it was never intended (correct me if I'm wrong) to be a profit making business. I still don't think it is - there's still a community feel in a lot of areas. But the recent commercialism aspect makes it feel more like a business than a community in some respects.

On the other hand there are smaller forums which are very much community in spirit like Unix, A&S as well as larger ones such as AH and Nocturnal. I mentioned AH earlier in the thread as one of the only forums where the regulars get a say in new mods - that's a good thing in such a busy forum. I don't know about Nocturnal as I don't even lurk there.

As for diluting content - we, the users, still provide the content and always will but the increasing popularity of boards does necessitate changes. However, these changes should be driven by the users - I don't mean that the lunatics should run the asylum, more that users opinions should be sought on major changes.

I do value boards - I've made some good friends from this asylum. But recent changes have lessened the attraction to some extent.

I have to ask - think it's the first time on the thread - how much influence do Daft have in the current commercial direction? Daft is a purely commercial company (not a criticism) and they wouldn't have bought in to boards.ie without some prospect of payback. Was that buy-in the turning point?

Orion

Wibbs wrote: »

Ditto

+1

Kiera

Macros42 wrote: »

I mentioned AH earlier in the thread as one of the only forums where the regulars get a say in new mods - that's a good thing in such a busy forum.

This isnt actually true.

dr.bollocko

Kiera wrote: »

This isnt actually true.

No it is true.
Unfortunately Face Kicker declined.

Slidey

Wibbs wrote: »

Their username starts with a D and ends with an O*.


Feck off Bollocko:D

Now I am confused..

randylonghorn

Slidey wrote: »

Now I am confused..

Don't tell snyper, or he'll start muttering about soap in the shower to you too ... >.<

BuffyBot

But that's the point, where as before we had this idea of an ultimate authority, now we have a committee.

You always had a committee, they just weren't always visible due to other constraints..which is why it often fell to DeV to be the face of whatever the issue was

As for not being able to tell how a statement is being perceived. With respect that's somewhat of a copout.

Not really - with the best will in the world, people will take a statement in the way it suits them. No amount of planning, phrasing or second-guessing will change that.

Yes and no. While I agree that was how it was, the main reason I and I know others stlll see him as the pinnacle is in every lurch since the new admins came on stream he's simply had to be. And there've been too many lurches since then too.

Of course, it's easy to comment on the visible issues or the past mistakes. <woe is me>No one seems to be overly focussed on quite a lot of useful stuff that's been happening in the background. Small, and low key and sometimes barely noticable.</woe is me>. There is an awful lot of that..and if people think the place is somehow unsatisfactory now, it would be in worse shape without it

There does seem to be some rose tinted glasses/nostalgia about the past being a perfect time with no big mistakes made by the Admins. Not that it was quite like that, of course.

Step back and look at this very thread. Who's acting the most like an "admin"? Who is being the most honest and human about their feelings? Who is looking for a solution? Who is the most in "command" for want of a better word and moving things forward? Their username starts with a D and ends with an O*. As a group you don't share the weight, your voice is lesser in actual reality/results in many cases beyond what most, if not all were doing bloody well as smods(and that loss is felt IMHO) and frankly on much evidence so far it would worry me about this site if many of the admins did. IMHO some aren't up to it. It's a different mindset. Little to do with the committee thing either.

Quite a lot of "how long is a piece of string" stuff there. What one person sees isn't the same as another. I can't make people believe what I say, but I believe in what I said

All the Admins can do is strive to make the most people happy possible - which we try to. That, by it's nature leaves some unhappy campers. We feel it, we try to avoid it, but we're not going to let it stall everything either.

parsi

Now that Boards is becoming more commercial (and fair boulds to ye) then I see that there will be less need for us subscribers.

I subscribed to Boards as a way of supporting a site that had expenses and also supplied me with information and amusement.

Today Boards has a commercial backer, has paid-for fora so I feel there is less need for paying 50 euro a year (the tag under my name isn't all that important).

I was never a part of the early-Boards clique (or any clique) but i can feel the community spirit drift away - this is oh-so-visible in adverts.ie : as ForSale for boardsies it was successful but now its almost like Buy and Sell and littered with traders and con-artists.

Boards is starting to become littered with single-issues posters (eg folks in the Irish Economy forum) who are here to grind their particular axe but yet add little to the community vibe.

Orion

BuffyBot wrote: »

All the Admins can do is strive to make the most people happy possible - which we try to. That, by it's nature leaves some unhappy campers. We feel it, we try to avoid it, but we're not going to let it stall everything either.

That's a very fair comment. You'll never please all of the people all of the time. I've seen most of the admins in various forum over the years and I can see where the admin role came from - experience and impartiality. And DeV has always been the voice of reason even before you became admins. And yes - as mentioned earlier - he probably always will be seen that way - at least by people who've been knocking about for a while.

Orion

parsi wrote: »

this is oh-so-visible in adverts.ie : as ForSale for boardsies it was successful but now its almost like Buy and Sell and littered with traders and con-artists.

Have a look at the adverts helpdesk once in a while. Traders and con-artists are very quickly spotted and banned. That's always been a strength of boards and it is a strength of adverts too.

Wibbs

BuffyBot wrote: »

Not really - with the best will in the world, people will take a statement in the way it suits them. No amount of planning, phrasing or second-guessing will change that.

Yes but you can strive to please/inform most of the people most of the time.

Of course, it's easy to comment on the visible issues or the past mistakes. <woe is me>No one seems to be overly focussed on quite a lot of useful stuff that's been happening in the background. Small, and low key and sometimes barely noticable.</woe is me>. There is an awful lot of that..and if people think the place is somehow unsatisfactory now, it would be in worse shape without it

Then give examples. Let the community see what has been done, large or small. Intimating it is not the same as reality. Just like the admin title.

There does seem to be some rose tinted glasses/nostalgia about the past being a perfect time with no big mistakes made by the Admins. Not that it was quite like that, of course.

I've only been here a few years, posting regularly only 2 ish, a mod just over 1 year. I'm not one of the quake crowd. Not by a long shot. I look at the site a year ago and I look at it now. I look in the middle and frankly I don't see the value added from the new admin layer. I do see longstanding people leaving. I do see a number of badly handled situations. I do see a fallback to the old hierarchy of sorting same. Even in my short enough time here, I've seen more issues arising since the new mod layer was instigated than before. Again, I've seen more people leave. Ive seen way more threatening to do so and are hanging by a thread. I've seen more headlesschickenism from the new admins. I've seen time and time again where the "real" admin has had to chill it out. Which the new admin layer was supposed to minimise and replace. He's earned the rest after 10 years. It's not just down "oh he's a founder" either. As others have said most have little clue anymore. It's more than that. Quite a few of the admins are well capable of that role too. Not all though and not what has come from the "committee" from what we've seen. A rising tide floated many smod ships, not all may be ocean worthy. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'd be only too happy to be proven wrong and I'll be hopeful too, optimist that I am about this place.

Quite a lot of "how long is a piece of string" stuff there.

Easy answer, not really applicable and avoiding the question though.

What one person sees isn't the same as another. I can't make people believe what I say, but I believe in what I said

Agreed. As do I.

Villain

I probably haven't got much right to post in this discussion but just a couple of points.

There has been imo a perception of click's in the background which you simply can't question or comfront. Now I have fallen foul of them on occasions and tbh once you learn that you just have to accept things and not question them its pretty easy to post without stepping on anyones toes. The old phrase "this is not a democracy" is sometimes a hard one to accept especially if users are new and see different treatment for different users.

Boards has and always will have historic Click's where people know each other personally and will defend each other despite them been in the wrong. Accepting that not every user is equal is fine once people learn that and I'm not sure if everyone should be equal here, posters who have contributed much in the past and post something out of character should be treated differently than a new user who has no form and posts simalarly.

However where it gets a little messy is when a serious issue occurs and members use personal real life contacts to ensure certain members are dealth with in a certain manner. Take the Weather issue that stank from the high hell and any discussion of it was dead before it started and as a result the weather forum has suffered badly. Also imo the Politics moderation in the past was sometimes more protective of one party over another killing discussions that were allowed elsewhere.

If we are going to continue with the "This is a not a democracy" some mods stick together no matter what accept that or piss off to another site then fair enough but I think imo that this will always hold the site back and it will always have an Elitism appearance.

For the better of the site I think independent Admins who are either new to the site or genuinely have no real world relations with Mods or senior Mods should oversee the issues that arise, a private appeals system for anyone that has an issue would be far better than having to start a Feedback thread when a mod bans someone and the user banned gets general support and then friends of the mod come in and support the mod and before you know you have cat pictures all over the place and people taking the p1ss out of each other. Have admins deal with the issues in private and then the user has to accept the admins inpartial decision.

Boards has a lot to offer and 99% of my expierence here has been positive but I have learned not to push the buttons or to avoid confrontation, although this post could have messed that up.

The Sweeper

Wibbs wrote: »

ve only been here a few years, posting regularly only 2 ish, a mod just over 1 year. I'm not one of the quake crowd. Not by a long shot. I look at the site a year ago and I look at it now. I look in the middle and frankly I don't see the value added from the new admin layer. I do see longstanding people leaving. I do see a number of badly handled situations. I do see a fallback to the old hierarchy of sorting same. Even in my short enough time here, I've seen more issues arising since the new mod layer was instigated than before. Again, I've seen more people leave. Ive seen way more threatening to do so and are hanging by a thread. I've seen more headlesschickenism from the new admins. I've seen time and time again where the "real" admin has had to chill it out. Which the new admin layer was supposed to minimise and replace. He's earned the rest after 10 years. It's not just down "oh he's a founder" either. As others have said most have little clue anymore. It's more than that. Quite a few of the admins are well capable of that role too. Not all though and not what has come from the "committee" from what we've seen. A rising tide floated many smod ships, not all may be ocean worthy. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'd be only too happy to be proven wrong and I'll be hopeful too, optimist that I am about this place.

Here's some feedback.

I am totally, utterly and absolutely bored off my fucking tits reading what Wibbs has to say about this site.

Wibbs thinks the admins are bad. Wibbs thinks the site isn't how it used to be. Wibbs thinks everybody needs to know what Wibbs thinks. Wibbs would like us all to know Wibbs' opinion. Wibbs has decided that Wibbs is the spokesperson for the tens of thousands of people on this site who aren't Wibbs, while simultaneously overlooking the fact that those tens of thousands of people who aren't Wibbs may actually not be as drastically worried about the "direction of the site" and the "headless chickenism of the admins" as Wibbs is, but still and all, at least Wibbs is making enough noise to represent everyone who isn't Wibbs, eh?

Here's some feedback. I'd like to read Feedback for a month and not see Wibbs on it.

I'd like Wibbs to strive to not speak for everyone else on the site on every single matter that arises for at least some of the time.

I'd put Wibbs on ignore, but I'd be afraid that he'd start his own boards.ie union and be chapel leader, speaking for the masses of non-Wibbs posters, and I'd miss it. Dear God, the thoughts!

Maybe the admins should petition the directors to change the url to www.whatwibbsthinks.ie. Maybe then Wibbs will finally be happy!

Seriously, would Wibbs and maybe Des move to Far Far Away and set up camp over there with Shrek and Donkey and Orestes and just forget there is a Feedback forum for a while?

Cue the "nyeh nyeh nyeh, I have a right to voice my blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH".

Wibbs - like the wasp at your wedding, buzz buzz arble arble buzzzzzzz....

Sherifu

The Sweeper wrote: »

Seriously, would Wibbs and maybe Des move to Far Far Away and set up camp over there with Shrek and Donkey and Orestes and just forget there is a Feedback forum for a while?

Bahahahahahahahahahaha. So that's where Orestes is gone to.

Wibbs

The Sweeper wrote: »

Seriously, would Wibbs and maybe Des move to Far Far Away and set up camp over there with Shrek and Donkey and Orestes and just forget there is a Feedback forum for a while?

Meh whatever about me that was uncalled for. Des and Orestes have built been hugely instrumental in building real forums and vibrant communities that spread to the outside world on this site in a very short order. Frankly they stand head ans houlders above people like you(and me BTW). Des is one of the reasons there exists a Boards football team advertising this site. They're a good example of where this site has come in the last 2 years. With that statement about a pair like them you're a good example of some of what this site needs to leave behind. Ex new admin too.

Nevyn

Villain wrote: »

Have admins deal with the issues in private and then the user has to accept the admins inpartial decision.

We have that it's called helpdesk.

parsi

Macros42 wrote: »

Have a look at the adverts helpdesk once in a while. Traders and con-artists are very quickly spotted and banned. That's always been a strength of boards and it is a strength of adverts too.

Yes. Identified and banned in many cases after the fact. Have a look at the helpdesk and you'll see tales of woe and misery.

When adverts was a direct parts of boards it was a better place for the members - it was easier to see with whom you were dealing, there were way fewer chancers, mods had a more straightforward life rather than having to act as contract enforcers, consumer affairs and judge.

BuffyBot

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes but you can strive to please/inform most of the people most of the time.

As I said, we do.

Then give examples. Let the community see what has been done, large or small. Intimating it is not the same as reality. Just like the admin title.

You really want me to make a list of all the little bits of work that gets done by the Admin team? Apart from the fact that a lot of it isn't for public discussion, I have neither the time nor the inclination. A lot of it is there to see, but if people don't take the plank out of their eyes and look for it, I'm not going to perform the ocular surgery required.

I've only been here a few years, posting regularly only 2 ish, a mod just over 1 year. I'm not one of the quake crowd. Not by a long shot. I look at the site a year ago and I look at it now. I look in the middle and frankly I don't see the value added from the new admin layer.

I'm not one of the Quake crowd. I couldn't play a computer game if my life depended on it. The site - as has been said many times - is never going to be the same. To be pedantic, every single time someone posts, it changes. It's a living, breathing thing - like a child growing up, it loses some of it's charm but gains many other things. We can't remain the cheeky 5 year old forever.

I do see longstanding people leaving.

Longstanding people were leaving long before you, or I, came along because "boards wasn't what it used to be" or they needed breaks or various other reasons. Such is life. People come and people go. DeV likened the site to a bus journey a while back and that analogy is a good one. People ride the bus for different journey lengths. We're comfortable with that concept, and other people need to start becoming comfortable with it too.

I do see a number of badly handled situations. I do see a fallback to the old hierarchy of sorting same. Even in my short enough time here, I've seen more issues arising since the new mod layer was instigated than before.

Yes there were badly handled situations. People have learned from those - so it's still a win. Why you didn't see them before? Simply because a lot of stuff wasn't getting handled due to a lack of time and resources, so of course you're seeing more issues coming through - because more stuff is getting done.

Again, I've seen more people leave. Ive seen way more threatening to do so and are hanging by a thread. I've seen more headlesschickenism from the new admins. I've seen time and time again where the "real" admin has had to chill it out. Which the new admin layer was supposed to minimise and replace. He's earned the rest after 10 years. It's not just down "oh he's a founder" either. As others have said most have little clue anymore. It's more than that. Quite a few of the admins are well capable of that role too. Not all though and not what has come from the "committee" from what we've seen. A rising tide floated many smod ships, not all may be ocean worthy. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'd be only too happy to be proven wrong and I'll be hopeful too, optimist that I am about this place.

And I think, optimistically, you will be proven wrong. As I said - it's very easy to pick on bad things. Not so easy to think of the positives - which I challenge you to do.

Easy answer, not really applicable and avoiding the question though.

I don't think so, but we're not likely to agree on that

Villain

Thaedydal wrote: »

We have that it's called helpdesk.

For the better of the site I think independent Admins who are either new to the site or genuinely have no real world relations with Mods or senior Mods should oversee the issues that arise, a private appeals system for anyone that has an issue would be far better than having to start a Feedback thread when a mod bans someone and the user banned gets general support and then friends of the mod come in and support the mod and before you know you have cat pictures all over the place and people taking the p1ss out of each other. Have admins deal with the issues in private and then the user has to accept the admins inpartial decision.

That was the rest of that paragraph and Helpdesk isn't private anyone can read it.

BuffyBot

The Sweeper - Feedback..possibly. Robust..definitely. Might want to dial it down a little though

Nevyn

People can and do pm admins to sort things out.
I do think that we are not at the stage were utterly impartial admins will work.
I do think they need to be from and of the community, there is no other way they will get the nuanaces of the site or the respect needed from the different communities.
It is often the ability to pull someone aside and give them a friendly dressing down which sloves a lot of problems quietly.
I honestly don't think that anyone can say that the admins en mass are biased in favour of any group or clique.

As for them being biased against any group or clique honestly I don't know.

I would hope that the sweeper is speaking form a personal place of ire.

The Recliner

The Sweeper wrote: »

Here's some feedback.

I am totally, utterly and absolutely bored off my fucking tits reading what Wibbs has to say about this site.

Wibbs thinks the admins are bad. Wibbs thinks the site isn't how it used to be. Wibbs thinks everybody needs to know what Wibbs thinks. Wibbs would like us all to know Wibbs' opinion. Wibbs has decided that Wibbs is the spokesperson for the tens of thousands of people on this site who aren't Wibbs, while simultaneously overlooking the fact that those tens of thousands of people who aren't Wibbs may actually not be as drastically worried about the "direction of the site" and the "headless chickenism of the admins" as Wibbs is, but still and all, at least Wibbs is making enough noise to represent everyone who isn't Wibbs, eh?

Here's some feedback. I'd like to read Feedback for a month and not see Wibbs on it.

I'd like Wibbs to strive to not speak for everyone else on the site on every single matter that arises for at least some of the time.

I'd put Wibbs on ignore, but I'd be afraid that he'd start his own boards.ie union and be chapel leader, speaking for the masses of non-Wibbs posters, and I'd miss it. Dear God, the thoughts!

Maybe the admins should petition the directors to change the url to www.whatwibbsthinks.ie. Maybe then Wibbs will finally be happy!

Seriously, would Wibbs and maybe Des move to Far Far Away and set up camp over there with Shrek and Donkey and Orestes and just forget there is a Feedback forum for a while?

Cue the "nyeh nyeh nyeh, I have a right to voice my blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH".

Wibbs - like the wasp at your wedding, buzz buzz arble arble buzzzzzzz....

As a long time poster surely you should know that if you don't like it then don't read it

Or another one that is trotted out which is attack the post not the poster

And given that this is feedback how about you leave something constructive

With that in mind whilst there have been some teething problems with the new heirarchy I think long term it will work out for the best but I do think people need to think long term and not focus on the short term or initial mistakes, everyone will make some and it is only right that they are given the time to prove that they can learn from that

seamus

Because Buffy already answered verbatim what I would have said Wibbs, I would like to address one particular point.

Again, I've seen more people leave. Ive seen way more threatening to do so and are hanging by a thread.

So let them go. The success of this site doesn't hinge on any one person and if any one person is unhappy with the site, then let them go. Don't change the whole site just to appease the various moans of a few random users with no specific issues aside from "The site is becoming too big".

I've seen time and time again where the "real" admin has had to chill it out. Which the new admin layer was supposed to minimise and replace.

There's fault on 3 sides in this case.
There's the new admin layer, who instead of saying, "This is the word of the Lord, amen", decided to allow debate on the issue to continue, even though a decision had been made.
There's the userbase (including yourself) who automatically reverted to only accepting DeV's word on anything and would go at an issue like a dog with a bone until they got DeV's word. You can hardly complain about DeV constantly stepping in when people are asking for DeV to constantly step in and refusing to accept anyone else's judgement.
And there's DeV, who should have directed someone to close the issue and not gotten involved at all.
For all three groups, it's about adjustment - both of the first groups have for a long time always waited for DeV to bang his gavel, and it just seems *weird* for an issue to be closed in any other way. For DeV, it's getting used to saying, "Someone else has the same authority as me and has already sorted this issue. Oh look, a poker game...".

For the better of the site I think independent Admins who are either new to the site or genuinely have no real world relations with Mods or senior Mods should oversee the issues that arise, a private appeals system for anyone that has an issue would be far better than having to start a Feedback thread when a mod bans someone and the user banned gets general support and then friends of the mod come in and support the mod and before you know you have cat pictures all over the place and people taking the p1ss out of each other. Have admins deal with the issues in private and then the user has to accept the admins inpartial decision.

There are pros and cons to this approach. On the one hand it's useful to have disputes sorted out in public because it maintains confidence that the process is open and impartial. On the other hand, it provides a soapbox for morons and without the public display most people would (as you mention) accept the decision and move on.
I would *lean* towards saying that there's no need for helpdesk to be public - if there's an actual problem which affects more than one user, there's a method in existence for raising that concern.

Wibbs

The Recliner wrote: »

And given that this is feedback how about you leave something constructive

Personally I found it quite constructive. I was getting a longwinded* personal attack on me and my motives from a one time new admin and one naturally well in with many in the admin group.

Two other users who have been and are actual useful members of this site who have built up their own communities here and have put Boards in the real world also got tagged. For no good reason but for the sweepers own "issues" with them.

What's the response from a current admin? "Might want to dial it down" with a smiley attached. Oh I would love to see the response if any other user had said the same of anyone else in a rant like that. Give me an ever loving break.

Meh I'm done on this point. Plain to see in certain quarters it is what it is.






*I get the irony...

_blank_

What the fúck did I do to you The Sweeper?

5starpool

Maybe MAJD thought this was the thunderdome or something. If there was a user I would accuse of using feedback to paunch their own personal grievances against people, wibbs (or the others she mentioned) wouldn't be the first name to mind for me.

_blank_

Oh, it's MAJD?

Figures.

FFS, gets away with a slap on the wrist and all.

Proof if ever it was needed that some are more equal than others.

Wibbs

Des wrote: »

What the fúck did I do to you The Sweeper?

You simply asked questions. It seems some just see this as whinging. This marks you out as "a problem". A common middle management theme and the evidence of that is her post. Make no mistake many other admins would have agreed with her. As I said it is what it is, hence I have less faith in the "admin" layer than I should. Meh the users is where its at anyway.

The Sweeper

Oh no, I fully expect to get banned for this.

Who cares?

Boards.ie ceased being fun when the corporate side decided they had to listen to your incessant fucking whinging.

Honestly. Feedback - from the chosen, noisy, empty, repetitive and terminally boring few.