Public sector told 'strike and pay will be docked'

The Valley

miju wrote: »

exactly. public servants can easily cause alot of cahos by simply working to rule. services get hit severely and we still get paid.

it is i believe what the unions are planning to do and only have all out stoppages in certain depts such as welfare so the unions can still afford strike pay

work to rule - you all make me sick. Greedy , lazy shower of wingers

gerry28

The Valley wrote: »

work to rule - you all make me sick. Greedy , lazy shower of wingers

Work to rule is part of industrial action, its not always a direct strike.

Looking at the AIB seeking a 3 percent pay rise and after the BOI got their one a few months ago. It just makes me even more determined not to roll over and accept cuts while the majority in the private sector don't take any.

Sure there are job losses in the private sector and lots of staff getting their wages cut.... but not half as many as some would have us believe.

Lemming

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Can you provide more details?

/sigh

Recognise sarcasm much?

Incidentally, dresden .. your vote wouldn't matter much if and god forbidding the IMF ever do come in here .... So what are you clamouring about voting for?

Simple. Arithmetic. Shows that whomever you vote in is going to have to swing the axe brutally on public expenditure; either by way of service provision in which case justification for having many people sitting around doing nothing wont happen (i.e. see the bit about culling), or by way of pay/culling of staff. The recent dublin bus spat springs to mind as an indicator of pubic service union feelings; management at Dublin Bus tried to draw up a roster that kept everyone employed albeit with less money for all, but the full time drivers refused, which meant that 'n' routes had to be scrapped and quite a few part-time drivers sacked. Unity eh?


Simple. Arithmetic. I'd like to not see anyone lose a job or lose pay, but reality says quite another thing to what I or anyone else would like to see.

maxximus

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

eoinbn

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On $77,000USD+ and believes that he/she is struggling to get by. At the start of the 'celtic tiger' $25k would of been considered a good wage, now it seems that triple that is just enough to live hand to mouth.

Lemming

maxximus wrote: »

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

I haven't mentioned figures, but since you brought it up ... what exactly do you think the government should do to cut public spending? Conjure up money out of thin air?

If you do not think that the country has to cut your wage bill in order to control its outgoing expenses you are the one with no "cop-on".

Simple. Arithmetic.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

And what. The. F*CK. do you think the rest of us have? Gold f*cking plated salaries with pensions, health care, etc. etc. etc.? That is the most purile, self-serving twaddle I've heard yet come out of a public servant's mouth.

In case you haven't noticed, the country is haemorraging private sector money. The very money NEEDED to pay your wages. Get over your sense of "entitlement", wake up and smell the roses.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

So report them. You think that some construction workers shouting abuse makes your case for you? Yeah? And? So? What?

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

But no cuts for you right? Everyone else but you ...

miju

eoinbn wrote: »

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On $77,000USD+ and believes that he/she is struggling to get by. At the start of the 'celtic tiger' $25k would of been considered a good wage, now it seems that triple that is just enough to live hand to mouth.

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

Lemming

miju wrote: »

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

circa €48,000 (calculated by his comments of 1k per week)

And he's pleading poverty ... I wonder what the mean pay of irish private sector workers would look like next to that. Before adding in "entitlements" for the public sector union member.

The Valley

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.

with 2 income levies , 2 prsi , 2 widow and orphans pensions , 2 super annuation pension payments , 3 different pension levy payments , income tax at 2 rates , my take home is 569 euro per week.

i do not have a mortgage , i am single , so after paying rent and bills i have a disposable income of less than 800 euro per month.

i have students ( i work in adult ed) who recieve welfare of 204 and student allowances of 60 euro per week with free medical care , 650 rent allowance per month ( i could live in a palace with that) , free fuel and electricity , they are way better off than i and have no problem telling me that.

and then you come on here with dicks wanting public service wages cut by 20% , cop on as you have no idea what you are talking about.

people go on to the web and see public service salaries and think they are huge , when deductions are made , they are not so big.

also the odd night i venture out at weekends all i hear are former construction workers shouting abuse at me telling me my wages should be cut, the majority are working for cash and when i told them every public servant should start reporting them they shut up quickly.

the social welfare problem is a huge problem in this country as it is way above what it should be and while a lot of speil exists that cuts need to happen at the top , they need to happen at the bottom too.

in order to do this the government need to cap the price of living in this country , ie from a loaf of bread to a pint of beer.

do that , cut social to reflect it and then come back to me and ask me to take a cut and i gladly will , but until that happens i will fight every cut to the bitter end.

OMG - I never thought it was that bad, you poor thing.................
JESUS CHRIST no wonder we are Fecked, you are taking home almost 600 Euro a week in a job that is safe from the axe and you are putting money away for your pension. Do you realise how many people with similar education and experiece in the private sector would love to be in your position.......
If, as you say, it is so much better on the dole - leave your job.
GET REAL

eoinbn

miju wrote: »

shall we stick to the actual currency of Ireland. Lest anyone being accused of trying to be sensationalist and make it sound like he's earning more than he is.

I put it in dollars as this country has lost the value of money. In '95 $25kUSD was the average wage in america. In '95 most irish people would of been happy on $25k. Come 2009 the average wage in the US is $41k, yet maxximus, and many other irish people, seem to believe that $77k is just enough to get by on- and that's not even including a mortgage.

dvpower

eoinbn wrote: »

A perfect example of why the country is finished. On > 28 million Zimbabwe Dollars and believes that he/she is struggling to get by.

FYP:D

maxximus

a cut of 20% and i will be leaving to emigrate as it just would not be worth the hassle. my 569(not 600 ) will go less than 5 , i pay rent of 125 , with car, health insurance , electricity and heat etc etc , it just aint worth it.


again , people are begruding , i am all for public service reform , in my sector i have 6 people working downstairs from me doing what i consider a non job , they are Advocate , Adult guidance , adult careers , further education support services , adult community education officer , adult educational development officer , some even have secretarys , all are failed female ( im not goona lie) teachers who couldnt handle the classroom and are employed doing jobs that i reckon i could do as part of my role as business / i.t/ maths tutor within the centre .

that is where reform is needed , keep cutting wages and revenue will just decrease all the more and the gap will widen .

i have taken a 10% cut , dress it what ever way you like that is what it is , 95% of private sector workers have yet too do so , without reducing the cost of living, people will not have any incentitive to work if the gap between social welfare and wages becomes narrower.

i am not willing to take a further cut until i see adjustments made on the wider scale ( now eoin see , i am willing to take the cut as stated above , but thats the part you chose not to read) , and i will fight with the support of the union to avoid these pay cuts at all costs.

maxximus

and a q for others , how much do you think my net income should be per week ?

I have an honours degree with a wide range of educational experience in my 10 years .

Lets have it, what do the brains of the forum think i should earn and also consider the cost of living in this country , as one cannot consider one without the other .

eoinbn

dvpower wrote: »

FYP:D

I have lost track of the value of currency in Zimbabwe, but given that they were printing $10,000,000,000,000 dollar notes a few months back I would guess that $28m is worth a few cent!

sceptre

You guys are getting a little too personal with each other. Kindly knock that on the head and stop doing it as handbag fights look idiotic for anyone who's not in one. Politics/Irish Economy: not your playground.

eoinbn

maxximus wrote: »

and a q for others , how much do you think my net income should be per week ?

I have an honours degree with a wide range of educational experience in my 10 years .

Lets have it, what do the brains of the forum think i should earn and also consider the cost of living in this country , as one cannot consider one without the other .

Please don't feel like I am singling you out. The country lost control and we will have to pay the price. Wages in this country will probably drop by 30-50% over the next 3-5 years, not because it's fair but because that is all the government will be able to afford. Usually what a government does is reduce the value of the currency, like they are doing in the UK/USA, which is an indirect paycut as purchasing power is reduced but we aren't in control of our currency so they will have to do it directly.

jimmmy

maxximus wrote: »

i work in the public service , after 5 years study and ten years work experience i now earn just over 1k a week.
.

I know plenty in the private sector eg someone with your study + experience but who is on 35k a year, longer hours, no security, no pension.

miju

Lemming wrote: »

I wonder what the mean pay of irish private sector workers would look like next to that. Before adding in "entitlements" for the public sector union member.

care to elaboorate on these "entitlements" ?

jimmmy wrote: »

I know plenty in the private sector eg someone with your study + experience but who is on 35k a year, longer hours, no security, no pension.

LOL , in fairness jimmmy you seem to know everyone in this country especially when it backs up a point or can be used to have a dig at the public sector :rolleyes:

jimmmy

miju wrote: »

LOL , in fairness jimmmy you seem to know everyone in this country especially when it backs up a point or can be used to have a dig at the public sector :rolleyes:

I know plenty of overpaid people in the private sector too eg dentists, accountants. I do not think I am that unique in knowing plenty of people. Many of my friends , family ,clubmates, business contacts, sports friends, old school pals, and neighbours etc would know plenty of people too.

gerry28

jimmmy wrote: »

I know plenty of overpaid people in the private sector too eg dentists, accountants. I do not think I am that unique in knowing plenty of people. Many of my friends , family ,clubmates, business contacts, sports friends, old school pals, and neighbours etc would know plenty of people too.

Jimmmy you must give everyone you meet a good stern interviewing to determine what they do and how much they are paid

Idbatterim

maximus, I completely agree that welfare is way way too generous! There is no way that social welfare should be left untouched in the budget, it has to be cut by atleast 10%, 5% is a waste of time, as those left working and this includes the PS are probably going to be hit for more than 5%!

jimmmy

gerry28 wrote: »

Jimmmy you must give everyone you meet a good stern interviewing to determine what they do and how much they are paid

Not really. Some people are quite open. Did you see the two page article in the Irish Indo last Saturday week, where half a dozen public servants discussed their wages in Ireland ( plus the cost of living , taxes etc ) compared to their native countries where they also worked (eg Germany, Holland etc ). Eye opening stuff, even for me.;)

Nody

Idbatterim wrote: »

maximus, I completely agree that welfare is way way too generous! There is no way that social welfare should be left untouched in the budget, it has to be cut by atleast 10%, 5% is a waste of time, as those left working and this includes the PS are probably going to be hit for more than 5%!

The problem is not so much the actual welfare as all the additions added on top of it (i.e. rent allowance, medicard etc.)...

gerry28

jimmmy wrote: »

Not really. Some people are quite open. Did you see the two page article in the Irish Indo last Saturday week, where half a dozen public servants discussed their wages in Ireland ( plus the cost of living , taxes etc ) compared to their native countries where they also worked (eg Germany, Holland etc ). Eye opening stuff, even for me.;)

No, never seen it.

I will say though - I would happily accept german or dutch pay levels if we were fortunate enough to have the same levels of public services, mortgage costs, living costs, job oportunities etc.

There seems to be less of a pay differential in those countries. i.e a hospital consultant gets 3 to 4 times the average industrial wage. Here its prob 8 to 10 times the average industrial wage.

The government comes now when everyone is in a pickle looking to drive down wages. They just made a good old mess of things.

cyclopath2001

Lemming wrote: »

I haven't mentioned figures, but since you brought it up ... what exactly do you think the government should do to cut public spending? Conjure up money out of thin air?

Stop borrowing money to bail out the banks and developers? How can we afford those interest payments?

BTW isn't it ironic that Lenihan's advance warning of pay cuts was while he was speaking at a dinner sponsored by AIB?

What's needed is a belief that the pain is being shared equally.

Drumpot

I have it on good authority that the Govt are considering a 5% paycut in public services (not sure if its a blanket cut) and 20% on ministers pay.

Looks like they are simply going to have to let the public servants strike. Its going to get messy, but sometimes things have to get worse before it can get better.

The sooner this country cops the fk on that its not about whats fair or about what they consider themselves to be worth, its what the country can afford.

I dont bracket all PERMANENT public servants in the same bracket as many of them are educated enough to know how good they have it in the current climate. Some of them (many on iboards) simply DONT HAVE A CLUE what they are talking about and ignorantly brush aside any relevant reasons why they should take a hit like the private sector. They conveniently ignore the state of the country and our depleted wealth, hiding behind the lamest excuses available to man (Just like our T.D's).

I genuinley believe that, while it suits the government to have a Public v Private debate ongoing, its the unions that are pushing it to justify their existance.

One of the biggest problems in the public service (and it starts from our friends like John O'Donohue at the very top) is the feeling that they are ENTITLED to something. That they are entitled not to be a part of this recession, that they are entitled to hold the country to randsom for their own means and that they are entitled to maintain as many benefits as possible because "its not their fault" . .

originally on the Public v Private debates I tried to be as impartial as possible. But slowly I have realised that people who believe the rhetoric coming from the unions (many addressed below) dont care about anybody else but themselves and feel that they are owed something by this country and by every taxpayer struggling to keep a job.

Heres a couple of myths (I'm sure I could've written all night) to be addressed.

..................................................................................................

Myth 1: You have qualifications and deserve to be paid a specified wage.

I have a management degree, an investment diploma, a QFA and 8 years in my industry and never earned more then €26,000 in a private company during the celtic Tiger years. I represent a MAJORITY of people in the private sector who didnt get ridiculous bonus's that many ignorant twats focus on in their patheticly weak arguements on why the "celtic tiger passed them" while all us in the private sector milked the system.

Myth 2: Nobody in the private sector wanted public service jobs during the boom years.

I tried getting a basic Public service job in 2002 for a starting salary of €28,000 which 350 people applied for 10 positions. Looks like 340 of us went to the rich , money for nothing , private sector (and most of us probably got screwed).

Myth 3: Its not the public servants fault.

So its the fault everybody in the private sector (not a select few of them). Public servants run our country, draft our legislation, regulate our banks, decide on planning permissions, rezone land . Shall I go on ? ? FAS . . Really stop me when its getting too much . .. :eek:

Myth 4: Think about the nurses, the garda . .

Necessary jobs , no doubt. But WHY should that mean that they shouldnt be a part of the recession ? Why should politicians take a paycut ? They are having to work harder now then they did in the good old Bertie Days. In fact, with this arguement , we should be raising our politicians wages. That aside, nobody is being spared, social welfare, child benefit, so why should ANYBODY in the public service be spared. If you can keep your job in the current climate you are better off then 500,000 people and hundreds of thousands worried about losing your job. If you are up worrying about taking a 5% paycut, then quit, get a private sector job and you can actually worry about something that most of us in the real world have to deal with . Will I still have a job next month . . .

Myth 5: Public servants pay a fair price for their pensions.

No no no no no. I have had this debate with an ignorant Ill educated angry person on this forum and totally debunked their ridiculous throwout comments. I even used actuarially based quotatations to show them how much we would have to pay in the private sector to get a similar pension. Im not repeating it, but a pension levy of 25% wouldnt be far off appropriate.

Myth 6: All Private sector employees made millions in the celtic years.

Refer to myth 2. I know many people in the exact same boat (probably because we all have the same amount of money to spend, or not spend!).

Myth 7: Public servants are getting the hardest hit

If you keep your job, then your not. Even in the private sector, with a job, many many thousands are worried about losing their jobs and losing their homes. To compare this to the anger of getting a paycut is simply ignorance of the highest order.

Myth 8: Public servants wages should only be benchmarked upwards and in countries were its beneficial for them to get more money.

Not really a myth per say, more a statement. The public services we have should be comparable with the services that we get in direct comparison to public services elsewhere. I dont need to get into this too much as I would not class our public services in the same class as France or Germany.
..................................................................................................


This debate will continue until Cowan grows a set, tells the unions to fk off and tells the public servants that they wont get paid while striking and starts to trim off the complacent fat that ruins our country. Far too many people have had it their way too long.

The recipe for perpetual ignorance is : Be Satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge .

I have many many friends in the public service and most of them understand that their job security is worth a huge bonus or double their wages in the private sector in the current climate. Be thankful for what you have, sometimes you dont know what you had until its gone and by god if the IMF came in, there would be alot of hands in heads wondering why they simply didnt listen when they had a chance to make a differance. . .

dresden8

Drumpot wrote: »

Some of them (many on iboards) simply DONT HAVE A CLUE what they are talking about and ignorantly brush aside any relevant reasons why they should take a hit like the private sector.

Can I take a hit like the BOI and AIB employees please? That 3% would go down nicely, thank you.

ParkRunner

Drumpot wrote: »

I have it on good authority that the Govt are considering a 5% paycut in public services (not sure if its a blanket cut) and 20% on ministers pay.

.

A 5% average cut is about as realistic a figure as the Government can hope to get through in this budget. If any more is cut than many public sector workers will have to be compensated through the welfare bill.

So thats 1bn down, only 19bn to go. Despite all the cuts so far, Government expenditure is increasing due to rising unemployment. The public sector can and will only go so far.

cyclopath2001

EF wrote: »

So thats 1bn down, only 19bn to go. Despite all the cuts so far, Government expenditure is increasing due to rising unemployment. The public sector can and will only go so far.

At least 80% of any cut will be lost in taxes, levies and VAT, making the whole debate about cutting pay a bit moot.

I wonder how the Christmas party bookings are going this year? Anybody in the hospitality industry here?

Far more will be spent in interest payments financing the bank and property developer bailout. If we still have a C&AG in ten years time, we'll probably have some interesting reports.

Lemming

maxximus wrote: »

a cut of 20% and i will be leaving to emigrate as it just would not be worth the hassle. my 569(not 600 ) will go less than 5 , i pay rent of 125 , with car, health insurance , electricity and heat etc etc , it just aint worth it.

BOO HOO WOE IS ME ....

Go stand in front of ANY dept. of social welfare line, introduce yourself and say that. I'll give you roughly 10 seconds left to breath after you say that once the line in front of you get over their absolute shock and disgust and remember that they once paid your wages ...

again , people are begruding , i am all for public service reform , in my sector i have 6 people working downstairs from me doing what i consider a non job , they are Advocate , Adult guidance , adult careers , further education support services , adult community education officer , adult educational development officer , some even have secretarys , all are failed female ( im not goona lie) teachers who couldnt handle the classroom and are employed doing jobs that i reckon i could do as part of my role as business / i.t/ maths tutor within the centre .

that is where reform is needed , keep cutting wages and revenue will just decrease all the more and the gap will widen .

Everybody but you eh? ... everybody but you ...

i have taken a 10% cut , dress it what ever way you like that is what it is , 95% of private sector workers have yet too do so , without reducing the cost of living, people will not have any incentitive to work if the gap between social welfare and wages becomes narrower.

95% eh? Would this be the same 95% of whom a few extra hundred thousand have joined the ranks of the unemployed? Almost every single one of my friends has taken pay cuts in EXCESS of 10%, and many of them are in the IT sector. I took a 100% paycut, then managed to secure another job at a much reduced salary (in order to get it), so you'll have to forgive me - and I suspect most other private sector workers - if I do not suffer your self-pity. We're being burned left right and centre between pay cuts, between tax increases and having to work longer hours just to keep money coming in the door so that we keep our jobs. And you're bleating about 10% whilst you keep the rest of your conditions? There are words I could use to describe my feelings towards your statement but I shall not utter them here lest the moderators hand me a ban. Suffice to say I am not impressed.

i am not willing to take a further cut until i see adjustments made on the wider scale ( now eoin see , i am willing to take the cut as stated above , but thats the part you chose not to read) , and i will fight with the support of the union to avoid these pay cuts at all costs.

You're not "willing" to take a further cut. Well ... y'see .. I'm sorry to break this to you, but out in reali ... sorry, the private sector, you don't get a choice. Some few hundred thousand weren't given the choice in the last few months. So why on gods green earth do you think you're so special that the rest of us have to carry the can to keep the silver spoon in your mouth?

maxximus wrote: »

and a q for others , how much do you think my net income should be per week ?

I have an honours degree with a wide range of educational experience in my 10 years .

Guess what. I'm roughly equivalent with a Masters degree and the better part of 10 years experience in IT and you get paid more of me. That's both pre & post "current climate". And that's before factoring in pensions, reduced healthcare, shorter working hours, etc. That I choose my particular path is my own concern and I am not waving it around to somehow curry sympathy, but I will wave it back in your face to show how short-sighted, how spoilt, and how utterly, utterly divorced from the reality of what is going on around you, that you are.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Stop borrowing money to bail out the banks and developers? How can we afford those interest payments?

Ummm, yah. Indeed, by that same token cylopath, how can we afford the public sector wage bill at current levels. At levels that were paid for using stamp duty from a housing bubble that should never have been allowed reach the state that it did. It was a fools errand to rely on that income indefinitely, and even more fools errand to allow public expenditure enter such a state as to be unsustainable. Just as any private sector employer can enter difficulty when business is not good, the state is your employer and it isn't doing so good right now. At all. In fact it's doing so bad that it's at risk of insolvency unless it does something about it. But you seem obliviously happy to demand that you keep the unsustainable perks and conditions from the last few years whilst the rest of us suffer for it.

I fully agree that the developers should go to the wall. I am of two minds on the banks, but allowing them to simply collapse would also be dangerous. Mind yuo .... you wouldn't be getting paid any more either, so perhaps that's not a bad thing ... You'd be just as destitute as the rest of us. A great leveller and what-not.

What's needed is a belief that the pain is being shared equally.

Ah ... this old nugget again .... "shared equally". Umm .. we've seen little "share" from the public sector what. So. F*cking. Ever.

"Share the pain" has become a mantra from the unions for "can't somebody else pay for it?"