Public sector told 'strike and pay will be docked'

gurramok

Samson1 wrote: »

"Our Countrys balance sheet is fked.
Where do we make up the 400million in loans we are getting per week to service our costs ? "

and repeat that over & over.

I think that is because you, IBEC and Government that has been dancing to IBEC's tune for the last 12 months know the answer.

Its not rocket science. What do Governments all over the world do to raise revenue ??? Yes thats right - they raise taxes.

This really is very simple. We are running a deficit - what do you do - you raise taxes - not for one sector. Not for 350,000 workers - for all people at work - all 2 million plus.

Thats the alternative & that is what all this Public Service bashing is about. Its not personal - like you say, you dont hate public servants. Thats not the issue.

Sounds like you are not old enough to remember the 80's. That alternative was tried with 60%+ tax rates and the country went through a depression because of it.

You don't tax your way out of a severe recession.

If it didn't work then, why should it work now? (income tax rates are already at 52% for the ultra highest earners)

Stheno

gurramok wrote: »

If it didn't work then, why should it work now? (income tax rates are already at 52% for the ultra highest earners)

Where do you get the 52% from? Is that a combination of 41% tax (in old money ) the 4/6% levy, and PRSI contributions of 8/5%?

Just curious as anyone over €75,036 pays 41% + 4% + 8% (PRSI) which is 53% going down to 50% when they exceed the PRSI threshold at 75,036.

The high earners on 150k plus pay another two percent in the levy as well.

gerry28

As a public servant I am very reluctant to just roll over and accept whatever paycuts, levies or fancies this government decided to dish up.

They messed up badly over the last decade and the world I grew up in if you messed up you payed the consequences.

I've lost jobs in my younger days through either laziness or through not applying myself properly - the government should face a similar fate.

I can just see them ducking and diving through the next couple of years... scraping by... then a few months before the next election handing out a few sweeteners to the people and getting voted back in again.

I would like to see this government fall and a new one in place - then I could accept a realistic adjustment to pay and conditions and reform (for the better) of the whole public service.

But I am very reluctant to help prob up this current shower of chancers.

rumour

gerry28 wrote: »

As a public servant I am very reluctant to just roll over and accept whatever paycuts, levies or fancies this government decided to dish up.

They messed up badly over the last decade and the world I grew up in if you messed up you payed the consequences.

I've lost jobs in my younger days through either laziness or through not applying myself properly - the government should face a similar fate.

I can just see them ducking and diving through the next couple of years... scraping by... then a few months before the next election handing out a few sweeteners to the people and getting voted back in again.

I would like to see this government fall and a new one in place - then I could accept a realistic adjustment to pay and conditions and reform (for the better) of the whole public service.

But I am very reluctant to help prob up this current shower of chancers.

Fine get rid of the government. Get a new Government but the question still remains the same. How do we pay the bills with no money?

a) tax
b) reduce spending

Remember the private sector pay the tax bill, that is the only source of money government can tax. But the private sector is getting smaller by the day so less money available. Its like sucking the last few drops out of the well.

If you reduce spending well thats the other option.

Which is the more sensible?

Idbatterim

Gerry if the goverment goes, do you think FG or Labour are going to have a painless way of saving €400,000,000 per week? You are now looking back at FF mismanagement of the economy and getting angry, but Public Servants were probably the biggest benefactor of it! You may be angry at FF now, but who awarded the ridiculous benchmarking and DIDNT reform the PS even though it has been in power for donkeys years? On the other hand, how many in the Public Service are paying no tax? probably very few, how many in Private Sector? 40%,40%! I think the cuts need to come from everywhere. The sections of society creaming it in fairness are those at the top and those at the bottom! the middle earners are the ones getting f***ed!

gerry28

Idbatterim wrote: »

You are now looking back at FF mismanagement of the economy and getting angry, but Public Servants were probably the biggest benefactor of it! You may be angry at FF now, but who awarded the ridiculous benchmarking and DIDNT reform the PS even though it has been in power for donkeys years?

They should never have awarded these increases in the first place. Its not great governance to come panicing and looking to slash public sector pay.

When I worked in the private sector i was always on guard for possible paycuts or getting layed off. But I felt more confidant in the public service that my wages would be more secure and predictable.

Could they not have stress tested beforehand.

How many mature civilised countries do you see doing this. Would it happen in the UK, Germany, France etc.... i doubt it.

Drumpot

gerry28 wrote: »

They should never have awarded these increases in the first place. Its not great governance to come panicing and looking to slash public sector pay.

When I worked in the private sector i was always on guard for possible paycuts or getting layed off. But I felt more confidant in the public service that my wages would be more secure and predictable.

Could they not have stress tested beforehand.

How many mature civilised countries do you see doing this. Would it happen in the UK, Germany, France etc.... i doubt it.

I think Gerrys point was that Labour or FG probably wouldn't of done much differant . .

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the opposition partys are conveniently forgetting what they were giving out about during the boom! The opposition parties were actually lambasting FF in the good years for not spending enough. Whether it was political pandering to the crowd or their actual stance, it doesnt suggest they thought that FF were overspending.

The assumption by many seems to be that with a differant government we wouldnt be in as much trouble. But thats all it is, an assumption. FF have done so many things wrong, but the Irish Public have accepted them. While the times were good the Irish Nation put their head in the sand and didnt want to hear about scandals (FAS, expenses etc), we were all too busy trying to get as much of the pie as we could.

I always find it interesting that people dont generally reply to my above paragraph. Sometimes the truth is the hardest thing to accept. Also, the first part of healing our country is accepting that we dont vote in morally rich people into power.

Prevention is better then cure. Due process and proper "interviews" are not done for jobs in the Dail. A family name, a wink wink here and a small grant there and a large portion of our T.D's get into power. What exactly do people expect ?

Idbatterim

gerry I dont think anyone anyone, could have forecasted the extreme halt the econmomy came to... Im sure when these pay increases and everything was done with the best of short sighted intentions! we are now in an economic wasteland, and i thing every sector and institution needs a complete overhaul, not just the minimum to get away with things apporach the goverment are taking! The problem is when you compare the cost in the private sector and public sector, at a time when prices in the private sector are dropping and have been for quite some time, all goverment controlled costs, ie health, transport, education etc are going up and up and up! the situtation is out of control! also gerry i dont think are panicing unduly, the country has been screwed financially for atleast a year now... The realisation now is how screwed we are, and knowing that the public sector cant be left untouched!

Idbatterim

Drumpot I have achoed your sentiments before, I am in total agreement when I say I do believe we would be in exactly the same situation had FG or Lab been in goverment, there would be differences (Maybe neither would have come up with Nama) but the economic situation I highly doubt would have been much different!

Drumpot

Idbatterim wrote: »

Drumpot I have achoed your sentiments before, I am in total agreement when I say I do believe we would be in exactly the same situation had FG or Lab been in goverment, there would be differences (Maybe neither would have come up with Nama) but the economic situation I highly doubt would have been much different!

I really believe that if we all stood up and had an AA moment :

"Im a voter and I have a problem picking the appropriate candidate who has the nations interest at the top of their agenda"

I believe we could collectively come to a solution thats painful, but thats fair and gets us out of this crisis quicker. The goodwill we would get internationally would nearly do it (foreign investment seeing a small country unified and ready to work harder for less, for the greater good).

This is too simplistic and easy to knock down. I know international markets and capitalism itself hinders the implementation of such a radical plan, but changing our psychology (which is something we can control) is vital for us to get out of this crisis quicker. We are the victims of our own greed. That is simply a fact.

Whether its public servants refusing to accept the reality of the countrys plight or certain members of the private sector looking to screw as many people as possible, it all leads to the same thing. Prolonged depression .

optocynic

miju wrote: »

exactly. public servants can easily cause alot of cahos by simply working to rule. services get hit severely and we still get paid.

it is i believe what the unions are planning to do and only have all out stoppages in certain depts such as welfare so the unions can still afford strike pay

Ahhhhh, the power of petulance?
If the public sector employees did, in fact, wrok to rule by way of protest, they would simple widen the already cavernous divide between them and the private sector.

I'll put it this way... the unfortunate opinion (worng as it may be sometimes) is that the Public Sector is useless, bloated and lazy...

Do you want to solidify that opinion more?

I already know the replies I will get... so don't bother!

eoinbn

Idbatterim wrote: »

gerry I dont think anyone anyone, could have forecasted the extreme halt the econmomy came to... Im sure when these pay increases and everything was done with the best of short sighted intentions! we are now in an economic wasteland, and i thing every sector and institution needs a complete overhaul, not just the minimum to get away with things apporach the goverment are taking! The problem is when you compare the cost in the private sector and public sector, at a time when prices in the private sector are dropping and have been for quite some time, all goverment controlled costs, ie health, transport, education etc are going up and up and up! the situtation is out of control! also gerry i dont think are panicing unduly, the country has been screwed financially for atleast a year now... The realisation now is how screwed we are, and knowing that the public sector cant be left untouched!

Peter Schiff? Ok he wasn't talking about Ireland, but our housing market was even more of a bubble. They were talking about a soft landing in the US aswell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdVP_sgCETo

Check out 4:30-5:00. They are laughing out loud at him on TV, even though everything he was saying came to pass and for the reasons that he said. He even wrote a book on how to profit from the crash, which helped me make a few bucks!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the opposition partys are conveniently forgetting what they were giving out about during the boom! The opposition parties were actually lambasting FF in the good years for not spending enough. Whether it was political pandering to the crowd or their actual stance, it doesnt suggest they thought that FF were overspending.

Of course some of it is political games, but there is different types of spending.
For example if benchmarking was set at 1% lower than it is currently then it would of saved the country ~€200m(gross) per year. After 3.5 years that would of been enough to build the new childrens hospital. That's capital spending which has longterm benefits. If after those 3.5 years you find that the country is still booming then you can now spend that money on new schools to replace the prefabs that the government is RENTING. That is an example of spending in the boom years to save money during a recession.

I would start on the Quango's, with a budget of over €10b, but tbh I have no idea where to start!

97i9y3941

god i often wish michael o leary was running the country,he would tell them to shut up and take a pay cut or he hire plenty of qualfied people on the dole queue to do the job,if some people went on strike in the private sector they would be fired,only reason we dont hear much about them is because they dont have a voice,they told to take it,end of,and i dont think they are doing much of a public favour by striking,a recent sunday independent telephone survey over 50% of those survey said yes there should be pay cuts...

optocynic

Fred83 wrote: »

god i often wish michael o leary was running the country,he would tell them to shut up and take a pay cut or he hire plenty of qualfied people on the dole queue to do the job,if some people went on strike in the private sector they would be fired,only reason we dont hear much about them is because they dont have a voice,they told to take it,end of,and i dont think they are doing much of a public favour by striking,a recent sunday independent telephone survey over 50% of those survey said yes there should be pay cuts...

Indeed, Michael woul take no crap from the unions. He is the man!!...

Of course, if he was in charge, the water wouldn't come 'exactly' to your house... the ambulance wouldn't take you 'exactly' to the hospital... etc..

gurramok

nouggatti wrote: »

Where do you get the 52% from? Is that a combination of 41% tax (in old money ) the 4/6% levy, and PRSI contributions of 8/5%?

Just curious as anyone over €75,036 pays 41% + 4% + 8% (PRSI) which is 53% going down to 50% when they exceed the PRSI threshold at 75,036.

The high earners on 150k plus pay another two percent in the levy as well.

52% then Still higher than it was a year ago and no i'm not one of those high flyers
Most paye are on either 26%(standard) or 47%(below 75k).
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/money-and-tax/supplementary-budget-2009#rates

How far do the PS posters reckon we should hike taxes to?

It would want to be very very high communist style to plug that deficit!!:D

amacca

Drumpot wrote: »

No, Im 31 years of age and I am deadly serious . . Perhaps there are areas of the private sector that paid more then mine, but I know for a fact that generally in Banking and insurance, a majority of people never even got near the average industrial wage. Thats simply talking from the areas I worked in, which were the areas that a majority of people in these sectors worked. We are the people with no voices, who SIPTU ignore when spouting out rhetoric about private sector employees creaming it in the celtic tiger years and we represent a majority of the workforce certainly in our industry (which is alot of people).

When I worked in a bank , they used to hire people on 8 month contracts, let them go for 4 months and rehire them on 8 month contracts so they wouldnt have permanent employee status and the benefits that go with it. Also they didnt have to give them raise. You see, some people didnt really have much of a choice as they werent qualified for anything else and contrary to popular belief they werent handing out public service jobs that none of us wanted.

Finished up in Collage at age 24 (took a year out during collage and worked for a year).

I tried to get a job in the public service back in 2002 a couple of times (starting wages €28k or so) and was up against 349 others for 10 positions at one time. At that stage I ended up having to join a private sector company starting on 20k (in the peak of the celtic tiger) with a degree. I got the Diploma and QFA during my term in Employment with New Ireland Assurance (but you dont get pay rises with qualifications gained). By then they were owned by Bank of Ireland and they dont really look after their staff. I know bank employees in a branch that had to bring in their own toilet roll at one stage.

You see, a majority of people I came across, whether it be working in banks (BOI And AIB) or New Ireland , were certainly not creaming the companies (as quite simply the companies wouldnt have it). There are tens of thousands of people working in the Banking sector that are on nowhere near the average industrial wage.

Sure there are private jobs that are on top salaries, but in my experience, these are the exceptions rather then the rule. Its convenient for certain groups to ignore this.

The simple fact is that this country are hemorrhaging money and we cant afford to continue spending what we are. Whatever public servants are told by their unions, the country simply cannot continue to afford spending as much as it is on all our services. In my job, most of the services I sell are seen as obsolete or excess to peoples requirements (although I believe they are important) and I constantly worry about whether or not I will have a job next month.

My wife took a 30% paycut recently and is on short time, so I am sure you will understand that when public servants talk of striking because they have to take a couple of paycuts, I dont really see why they would consider bringing this country to its knees for their own benefits. Of course there are personal circumstances where people are struggling and we all empathise with people struggling for any reason. Thats not the point, this is a national issue. Most of us in the private sector cant goto their boss and say they cant take a paycut cause they cannot afford it and if they said they would strike they would be given a p-45. Thats the differance, thats where the reality sets in for private employees and where public servants end off in Never Never Land, where benchmarking only goes one way when it suits them & where getting more loans from the EU is the answer to the problems.

I dont listen to IBEC or SIPTU, no more then I listened to the Yes or No campaigners in the Lisbon treaty.

I think those in the higher brackets of the public service should be hammered (up to 20% in the real high areas) and they should leave those in the lower paid areas as much as is possible.

There will have to be serious job losses or paycuts (possibly both). The government are going to have to nudge the unions aside as social Partnership is whats given the unions and their members a feeling of entitlement and a feeling of being above everybody else (certainly the way they come across).

The maths is simple . . The country cannot afford its bills and some people would have us forget this, except for the fact that the EU will eventually pull the plug on our funding if we dont get our house in order. Bowing to the public servants DEMANDS would be detrimental to the countries recovery. The only people it will serve is those getting a salary from the state. I have to laugh when they say its taking money out of the economy. Its money that we are borrowing to pay them.

Fair enough, cant really argue with what you're saying but it really makes you wonder if all that hard work, time, cost was worth it for 26k. You nearly would have been better off on the dole (if not actually)

I think with you're level of qualifications etc you are being screwed compared to what those in the higher echelons and those in the lower echelons of both sectors are taking in (relative to their experience/qualifications etc)

Its not that I don't buy your point, its just that I don't buy the inference that just because you have had to put up with this level of pay other workers are not in a position to feel entitled to or fight for a fairer reward for their level of qualifications/experience etc.


Of course if the money is not there to pay at the end of the day then it doesn't matter what qualifications/experience you have. That is the reality you are talking about and I cant argue with it.

However...as Ive said before I would support the unions (even if it means the IMF come in) if there isn't some effort to reform properly and spread the burden across all members of our society.

ie: those earning extremely high wages should pay the same proportion in tax as a PAYE worker (note....I didnt say more just the same proportion) -> abolish ridiculous loopholes for these people.

Lets see the wheels of justice which reputedly grind slow but exceedingly fine speed the f#ck up. I dont want to see sean fitzpatrick et al being banned from serving on the boards of banks in twenty years time (NIB anyone) that is simply not justice....if it never raised a penny...if it costed millions I think an attack dog legal team should be put on this and these people should be made pay for their errors and if they are found guilty of wrongdoing they should go to the same overcrowded prisons as everyone else.............................................................................................

I dont buy the argument that the blame game is not constructive, I think if you jettison consequences for select groups you are storing up trouble for yourself in the future but unfortunately that is the way our society has gone. Bring back actual punishment for crimes.

etc etc etc.....NAMA


Ultimately you are correct of course though, the mathematical problem is simple Im farly sure howver our elected government and whoever replaces them will choose the most inelegant unfair complicated method of solving the problem in which the greedy powerful minority will be sheltered as much as possible with the occasional sacrifical lamb been thrown to the baying crowds.

cyclopath2001

gurramok wrote: »

It would want to be very very high communist style to plug that deficit!!:D

You mean, umm, like if the government controlled the property market and owned most of the banking business?

Stheno

gurramok wrote: »

52% then Still higher than it was a year ago and no i'm not one of those high flyers
Most paye are on either 26%(standard) or 47%(below 75k).
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/money-and-tax/supplementary-budget-2009#rates

How far do the PS posters reckon we should hike taxes to?

It would want to be very very high communist style to plug that deficit!!:D

I take it you mean 53% then and thanks for the link.

I'm in the PS in that I work for one of the commercial semi states, and frankly, given the principle that (i think it's called the laffer curve) once you hike taxes above 50% then people will do everything to avoid earning extra income that incurs that tax (e.g overtime versus time in lieu) then the govt. has maxed itself out there.

Now I don't pay the levy as I'm not in that class of PS worker, I'm on a long term contract, get 22 days holidays, an allowance towards my PRSA (which is mine) and that's it, I don't have mandatory sick days, VHI, increments or anything like that.

That said, I'm subject to performance management and can be fired, and I do wonder given that out of 12 years working I've spent 2/3 in the Public Sector, (I consulted in the public sector also) how some of the inefficiencies that I see exist the PS are allowed to continue, and I'd tend to view the Unions as having the influence there.

cyclopath2001

nouggatti wrote: »

I don't have mandatory sick days,

What are they?

nouggatti wrote: »

VHI

Is this paid for in the PS?

If you were paying the pension levy, your marginal rate would be 60%.

Stheno

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

What are they?

Is this paid for in the PS?

If you were paying the pension levy, your marginal rate would be 60%.

I have friends in a sector of the public service who are encouraged to take a minimum amount of sick days as a right, I certainly don't.

I've colleagues who get VHI or it's equivalent.

As for the 60% you are assuming (I assume) that I earn 75k plus, or does the 60% hit below that margin?

cyclopath2001

nouggatti wrote: »

I have friends in a sector of the public service who are encouraged to take a minimum amount of sick days as a right, I certainly don't.

Maybe that happens in 'jimmmyland'

nouggatti wrote: »

I've colleagues who get VHI or it's equivalent.

In what government departments/agencies is VHI paid by the employer?

nouggatti wrote: »

As for the 60% you are assuming (I assume) that I earn 75k plus, or does the 60% hit below that margin?

It depends on your tax position.

efb

Is everyone ignoring the SRCOP (Standard Rate Cut-Off Point) below which your taxed at the lower rate? Or non taxable deductions which reduce your tax bill even further!

No one pays tax of 60% of their gross income, and if they are I'd ring Revenue and ask for a refund!

Darragh29

Participate in a "day of protest" and have that taken from your salary, you have a problem...

Participate in an all out work stoppage/down tools and standing/continuing protest in the city centre across many sectors until a general election is called, the government has a problem...

gurramok

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You mean, umm, like if the government controlled the property market and owned most of the banking business?

Nope, so can you answer the question, what tax rates you envisage to help pay for the public finances?

Lemming

Darragh29 wrote: »

Participate in a "day of protest" and have that taken from your salary, you have a problem...

Participate in an all out work stoppage/down tools and standing/continuing protest in the city centre across many sectors until a general election is called, the government has a problem...

In the current climate I think you might find that option two gives you even more of a problem ... the general populace are not exactly standing rank and file behind the high cost of public services pay right now since it is one of the two areas that are very much threatening to bankrupt the country in a real and credible manner.

Strikers rely on public support as much as pressurising the government. This time you risk truly earning the ire of the general public, who are your pay masters. That gives the government extra resolve since numerically, there's far more of them than you. Far more. Anyone remember the teachers strike that fell on its face after they p*ssed off parents nationwide a few years ago? Now imagine how p*ssed off EVERYONE is going to be over public sector striking considering what's happening to the country.

Darragh29

Lemming wrote: »

In the current climate I think you might find that option two gives you even more of a problem ... the general populace are not exactly standing rank and file behind the high cost of public services pay right now since it is one of the two areas that are very much threatening to bankrupt the country in a real and credible manner.

Strikers rely on public support as much as pressurising the government. This time you risk truly earning the ire of the general public, who are your pay masters. That gives the government extra resolve since numerically, there's far more of them than you. Far more. Anyone remember the teachers strike that fell on its face after they p*ssed off parents nationwide a few years ago? Now imagine how p*ssed off EVERYONE is going to be over public sector striking considering what's happening to the country.

I'm a private sector employer for a start, not a public sector worker as suggested...

I don't agree that people working in public or private sector jobs should be poorly paid. I don't agree either that nurses or gardai are highly paid compared to whatever their private sector equivilent might be.

We need to decide as a country do we want well paid secure jobs or do we not, and we need to stop drawing this distinction between public sector and private sector workers. We need to decide where the income bar should be set at as a minimum and take it from there and stop getting all hung up on what is happening over in Sweden or the UK and drop this public -vs-private sector debate.

Nody

Darragh29 wrote: »

We need to decide as a country do we want well paid secure jobs or do we not, and we need to stop drawing this distinction between public sector and private sector workers. We need to decide where the income bar should be set at as a minimum and take it from there and stop getting all hung up on what is happening over in Sweden or the UK and drop this public -vs-private sector debate.

Do please tell me who are going to pay these "well paid secure jobs" because I can assure you it will NOT be the private sector...

alibabba

The Government's running of the country is somewhat like running a business. It has income and expenditure. If its not making more money than its spending, its in trouble - what else can they do but look at their books/tighten their belts. I have yet to hear one single comment from the PS unions to alternatives to the expected paycuts (those Unions are fatcats & a joke TBH)

If a company was bleeding money the first thing they would do is look at head count/wages. If my private sector company told me in the morning that sales were going bad and we need to introduce a pay cut you wouldnt get much grumblings about it. Its the same with the government and their relationship with the public sector. Im not bashing the PS but what else can the government do?
If you are on the books of a company buckling under the recession, you cant really complain if they cut your salary to keep afloat. Its either except that or lose your job, which do you want?

There werent too many complaints when the Government were dishing out the multiple of payrises over the last few years to the public servants!

NewDubliner

alibabba wrote: »

There werent too many complaints when the Government were dishing out the multiple of payrises over the last few years to the public servants!

Not from the car dealers, bank managers, dodgy pension vendors and property developers who all saw that money coming their way.

RCIRL

Amhran Nua wrote: »

From the Independent:

So eh, its part of the budget balancing measures to get public sector workers out striking now is it?

I am still waiting for a reply to my email, looking for 300 people ring any bells?

Amhran Nua= taking advantage of the current situation to sneak in and carry on the age old tradition of deception (pretending they care).

I doubt you make it that far, should you be lucky enough to present yourself on my ballot paper, you wont be getting my vote.

FF are part of Irish woodwork, over 20 years they have spent messing up the entire system, no party can undo the mess, not in this generation.

Over 450,000 people in Ireland have two choices, leave Ireland or wait around and try and find work in the public sector.