Are we moving away from being "girly" men?

Macha

rcunning03 wrote: »

Yeah, lets all live in a bland monotone world where everybody is exactly the same and nobody talks to anybody cause they're afraid of causing offence.

You have used this line before but yet to explain why and how removing clearly defined gender roles will result in everybody being exactly the same.

DarkJager wrote: »

What's inherently feminine about handbags or make up? Perhaps the fact that they have always been womens items?

Always? Are you aware that men used to wear make-up until the 1850s? I think you're looking at today's society and assuming it has always been so.

DarkJager wrote: »

I mean if you start incorporating items that are foundationally feminine in nature into the male lifestyle, where do you stop? Will we see guys 5 years down the road using tampons as well?

That is quite possibly one of the silliest comments I've ever read on Boards. We're talking about cultural issues not physical facts. Please explain what you mean as "foundationally feminine".

Herbal Deity

DarkJager wrote: »

What's inherently feminine about handbags or make up? Perhaps the fact that they have always been womens items?

No they haven't.

DarkJager wrote: »

I mean if you start incorporating items that are foundationally feminine in nature into the male lifestyle, where do you stop? Will we see guys 5 years down the road using tampons as well?

No you won't.

The answer is you stop when you get to products that are intended for physiological female purposes, eg. tampons.

Lame Lantern

Whether you're being sold grooming products designed to cultivate a metro, slightly feminised look or grooming products designed to bring back happy memories of fist fights over games of pool taking place in log cabins built by shirtless, hairy bros, you're still succumbing to the pressures of being fashionable. It's neither good nor bad, just the continuing cyclical nature of appearance fascism.

EDIT: Admittedly one of the more benign forms of fascism.

Herbal Deity

Lame Lantern wrote: »

appearance fascism.

fash-ism?

*gets coat

rcunning03

Herbal Deity wrote: »

fash-ism?

*gets coat

Thats a keeper

rcunning03

You have used this line before but yet to explain why and how removing clearly defined gender roles will result in everybody being exactly the same.

I find it too hard to explain. I tried explaining it last time but I mustn't of explained myself well enough.

I like differences bewtween the sexes. I want to hang around with women that look and talk like women and I want to hang around with men who act and talk like men. I want to hang around with easy going people of both sexes just like people were in the 80's (the 80's as I choose remember them, not the actual 80's of boy george etc) before we decided to have people that cross all boundaries in their definition of the roles of sexes. I want men to look like men and women to look like women.

If that's ignorant/sexists/whatever I don't care. I just want to hang around with easy going people who are a bit of a laugh and that take the p*ss out of you and you take the p*ss out of them back without anyone starting to cry or calling the police about discrimination.

I like easy going people and blokes who spend too much time doing themselves up, tend not to be easy going, in fact it seems like they are constantly on gaurd in case somebody says something that somebody might be offended by.

I can't explain why removing clearly defined gender roles would make everyone the same, the best I can say is men who are ashamed of being men and prefer to look like women tend to be very uptight and no fun, same way with women that think there is nothing a man can do that a woman can't do.
Generally (obviouslly there will be exceptions) they just tend to be really emotional people that blow the smallest thing up into a massive drama and I want nothing to do with people like that.

That said, if someone is a metrosexual and are a bit of laugh to be around, all I said above gets disregarded. I just don't like politically correct people and those who try to impose a particular way of life on everyone else.

Anybody from any race/sexuality/country can either be a pr*ck or sound but generally I find spikey haired, terrible right-on, politically correct, modern metrosexual men to be a pain in the hole that act like precious little princesses.

I just wish they would calm down a bit.

Macha

rcunning03 wrote: »

I like differences bewtween the sexes. I want to hang around with women that look and talk like women and I want to hang around with men who act and talk like men.

OK first, please define what you consider looking and talking like men and women means.

rcunning03 wrote: »

before we decided to have people that cross all boundaries in their definition of the roles of sexes. I want men to look like men and women to look like women.

Who is "we" and who are we to decide what people should and should not look and act like.

rcunning03 wrote: »

If that's ignorant/sexists/whatever I don't care. I just want to hang around with easy going people who are a bit of a laugh and that take the p*ss out of you and you take the p*ss out of them back without anyone starting to cry or calling the police about discrimination.

Well I consider it more important to be able to hang out with people who really don't give a toss what you look like or how well you fit into a particular box.

rcunning03 wrote: »

I like easy going people and blokes who spend too much time doing themselves up, tend not to be easy going, in fact it seems like they are constantly on gaurd in case somebody says something that somebody might be offended by....men who are ashamed of being men and prefer to look like women tend to be very uptight and no fun, same way with women that think there is nothing a man can do that a woman can't do.

wow wow wow..so many assumptions..

rcunning03 wrote: »

Generally (obviouslly there will be exceptions) they just tend to be really emotional people that blow the smallest thing up into a massive drama and I want nothing to do with people like that.

So we live in a society with cultural norms that you seem to want to keep rigid and when people complain about it, you think they're guilty of being "emotional".

rcunning03 wrote: »

I just don't like politically correct people and those who try to impose a particular way of life on everyone else.

Sounds like that's exactly what you want.

rcunning03 wrote: »

Anybody from any race/sexuality/country can either be a pr*ck or sound but generally I find spikey haired, terrible right-on, politically correct, modern metrosexual men to be a pain in the hole that act like precious little princesses.

Oh man, where to start...

rcunning03

taconnol wrote: »

OK first, please define what you consider looking and talking like men and women means.


Who is "we" and who are we to decide what people should and should not look and act like.


Well I consider it more important to be able to hang out with people who really don't give a toss what you look like or how well you fit into a particular box.


wow wow wow..so many assumptions..


So we live in a society with cultural norms that you seem to want to keep rigid and when people complain about it, you think they're guilty of being "emotional".


Sounds like that's exactly what you want.


Oh man, where to start...

Basically I don't care what people act or look like as long as they don't make a big deal of it and you don't have to be careful what you say around them.

I wouldn't want to impose my ideals on anyone, variety is important but I'm not going to like someone solely for the fact that they challenge the traditional roles of the sexes and yes I don't want to hang around with people who complain about the unfairness of society. We live in the west and generally have an easy life. A lot of the world can't even feed themselves on a daily basis and we (by we I mean western society as a whole) complain and get incredibly emotional about really irrelevant unimportant things.

Anyway, even though I complain about it, I would never try or want anyone to stop anyone from doing what they want to do. I believe it's very important that people are able to spend their money and look whatever way they want.
It also wouldn't stop me getting to know anyone.

As someone who would like a smoke with a pint and like to smoke other things as well, I just wish there was a bit more tolerance for people like me as well as people challenging the boundaries of what society thinks men and women should look like. I want a tolerant society but tolerant of everyone as long as they don't do something that injuries or excessively interfers with opther people. I accept having a smoke with a pint will only ever be a memory
but why don't I have the freedom to spend the money I've earned myself on the differnent types of *smoke* I like? If men want to buy make-up fair enough but why can't I buy the types of smoke I want to buy?

It's one rule for the politcally correct type of people and another rule for people who want the same type of freedom to do what they want with their bodies but aren't allowed cause it offends terribly right-on middle class hysterics and what they think everybody should live like. I can decide for myself what risks I'm prepared to take.

I want tolerance for everyone but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it all but I would never try to stop it. Mainly because trying to stop something doesn't work. The English tried to stop the Scots wearing kilts a few hundred years ago and look how that turned out.

OldGoat

taconnol wrote: »

Well I consider it more important to be able to hang out with people who really don't give a toss what you look like or how well you fit into a particular box.

rcunning03 wrote: »

Basically I don't care what people act or look like as long as they don't make a big deal of it and you don't have to be careful what you say around them.

Sounds like you are both singing from the same hymn sheet. Ye are agreeing that everyone should be free to be who they want to be but that ye would be more comfortable associating with different groups. Well and good, point made.

In Summary:
We have also established that men have used products throughout history.
We agree that there is a trend by the manufactures of cosmetics to target the male market.

The centeral tenant of the OP (as I interpret it) is that men are stepping back from the products counter and saying enough is enough because the cosmetics companies are pushing the limits of what most men are comfortable with by promoting eyeliners ect.

The OP uses the term 'Girly men' and that has proved to be a bit of a hornets nest but I don't believe that was his intent. There seem to be 3 groups of men being represented in this thread, the small group of 'I'm happy with carbolic soap', the large group of "I like shampoo and perhaps a moistueriser but thats my limit' and small group of 'Ok, I want it all'. Typical bell curve. The OP is suggesting that there is a shift in the number within these groups and wonders as to why.

The consensious on that 'Why' question appears to be
A) Financial constraints - lack of cash
The cosmetics companies are targeting us and we don't like it.


Personally I thinks it's because we watch MadMen and want to bring that lifestyle back. Not gonna happen.
Did I miss anything?

Macha

OldGoat wrote: »

The OP is suggesting that there is a shift in the number within these groups and wonders as to why.

The consensious on that 'Why' question appears to be
A) Financial constraints - lack of cash
The cosmetics companies are targeting us and we don't like it.

I would add C) Cultural norms. They haven't stretched quite as far as the fashion/cosmetic industry would like. So as much as they would like men to start buying mascara and lipstick in the morning, there are still the cultural restraints that mean this is not going to happen - at least any time soon.

On I wish women were a bit more like this...there are so many women who never step outside the house without a full face of make up.

rcunning03

taconnol wrote: »

I would add C) Cultural norms. They haven't stretched quite as far as the fashion/cosmetic industry would like. So as much as they would like men to start buying mascara and lipstick in the morning, there are still the cultural restraints that mean this is not going to happen - at least any time soon.

On I wish women were a bit more like this...there are so many women who never step outside the house without a full face of make up.

I would also add in point D) It's just not that cool. Somebeody correct me if I'm wrong but bands or musicians that go for the metrosexual look now just aren't cool and their music is not really that good. Metrosexual music now is just bland and basically about selling a particular lifestyle full of buying cosmetics and creams etc.

In the 70's you had Ziggy Stardust and it was cool to dress up in drag and wear make up. I personally don't think the likes of the people who appear on max-factor (sorry x-factor) can even be mentioned in the same breadth as the drag queens of the 70's. The drag queens were cool and the music was great, the ultra self-concious image obsessed metro bands of today aren't and the music is crap.

The cool music of today (though I only like a very small amount of it) is the alpha male, urban gangster music. Maybe we'll get a ziggy for the 00's soon and drag will be cool again like it was in the 70's and previous centuries.

Fully agree with you on point B

OldGoat

I would also add in point D) It's just not that cool. Somebeody correct me if I'm wrong but bands or musicians that go for the metrosexual look now just aren't cool and their music is not really that good.

I've already told everyone to keep to the thread. This is so off topic it's unreal.
Don't be my first Ban!

spoutwell

Are we moving away from being "girly" men?

Don't know, love, I wouldn't get me knickers in a twist over it.

spoutwell

On a more serious note, getting rid of Bertie Aherne who ran up 50k a year on cosmetics for Brian Cowen who 'doesn't do' cosmetics was a welcome return from the green pastures of girly decadence. Its not a coincidence that Aherne was the most insincere, decadent, incompetent 'leader' this country has since the foundation of the state.
I've been using a cut-throat for years. It took me years to get over the 'butcher's block' face effect but I'm getting there despite the occasional laceration (not nick).
I don't see the point in any deoderants, after-shaves, etc. Personally, I prefer the smell of my own sweat, which I do wash off occasionally. So sweat is the same as urine apparently. Well we get plenty of those germs on our genitalia when we ingage in normal hetrosexual intercourse - and we're not complaining about the smell.

bangersandmash

spoutwell wrote: »

On a more serious note, getting rid of Bertie Aherne who ran up 50k a year on cosmetics for Brian Cowen who 'doesn't do' cosmetics was a welcome return from the green pastures of girly decadence. Its not a coincidence that Aherne was the most insincere, decadent, incompetent 'leader' this country has since the foundation of the state.

50k for Ahern's cosmetics budget seems ludicrous to the point of being surreal in the context of the current climate.

But to me the two male examples you listed only serve to show that the use (or lack) of cosmetics tells us nothing about competence.

spoutwell

In the kingdom of the incompetents, the one who spends 50K a year on cosmetics is king.

bangersandmash

spoutwell wrote: »

In the kingdom of the incompetents, the one who spends 50K a year on cosmetics is king.

Some might be more concerned about the one who fritters away €50bn. But that's a discussion for another thread :rolleyes:

gurramok

What would happen if mens trousers didn't come with pockets and/or their shirts had no pockets, where would they put all their stuff into?

Think about it. I used to have a classmate in primary school whose parents always sewed his pockets together in order to prevent him putting his hands into his pockets constantly so he had nowhere to put his stuff into other than his huge schoolbag.

Sounds like manbags would take off if that ever happened to mens fashion

OldGoat

Noone seems to have anything left to say on this topic for now.
/Thread