Proposal to get rid of playground in estate

Cadiz

Property management AGM this week. One of the proposals on the agenda is that we get rid of the playground on our newish estate due to its attracting 'anti-social elements' (ie teenagers hanging out there drinking) that disturb residents in the houses nearby.

I sympathise with residents for whom this is a disturbance or even a security worry but to me dismantling the playground for this reason is not an option. I mean it's nuts. How is taking an amenity away like that helping solve anything?

I should point out, in the interests of balance, that I moved out of there to take a job elsewhere two years ago, so I rent my property out, and the house is not situated near the playground.

AGM is on Thursday and I'm having a difficulty finding a proxy to attend for me and I would struggle to be there myself as live three hours away and can't get off work.

I'm worried that the sods will vote to get rid off the playground - the property management company is all for it.

There's nothing I can do about this, is there? Can they remove a public amentity just like that?

athtrasna

Unlikely that they can do that....planning permission would have been granted with the playground...taking it away would also require pp as far as I know.

Cadiz

mikemac wrote: »

But you don't live there or have to deal with youths hanging around drinking cans and making noise

If your read my post you'll see I did make that very point myself! :rolleyes:

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Instead you see an amenity (that you don't use) removed from the area and wonder what effect it'll have on the estate, possibly even on the value of your house/flat

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I didn't mention the impact this would have on the value of my house, and indeed that is not at all my concern regarding this issue. But yes, indeed I do wonder what effect it will have on the estate.

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Everyone or their proxy will be looking out for their own self interest at that meeting.

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Well yes, of course they will. That's the great Irish way! And it's served us all so well to date, hasn't it.

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I don't know the legalities of planning permission but I take the views of somebody who lived in the estate and had concerns over anti-social behaviour over somewhere who didn't live in the estate
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This house was my home. It will be again if I'm ever fortunate enough to get a job in my home town again. As I said, I do sympathise with the residents who have been affected by this, and I have a duty of care to my tenants well being in this respect aswell, but I also take a wider view:

No playgrounds = bored kids hanging around = bored kids grow into bored (and, probably, fat) teenagers hanging around = my goodness, what a surprise: 'anti-social' behaviour'. Get the idea?

There are better ways of dealing with it.

the_syco

Cadiz wrote: »

This house was my home. It will be again if I'm ever fortunate enough to get a job in my home town again. As I said, I do sympathise with the residents who have been affected by this, and I have a duty of care to my tenants well being in this respect aswell, but I also take a wider view:

No playgrounds = bored kids hanging around = bored kids grow into bored (and, probably, fat) teenagers hanging around = my goodness, what a surprise: 'anti-social' behaviour'. Get the idea?

There are better ways of dealing with it.

Is the place well lit? If not, recommend it, or have it fenced off, with access only during the day. Teenagers will be less likely to "hang out" at a well lit venue where people could see them (they'll move elsewhere), or a fence could stop them getting in. Of course, holes tend to appear in fences, so the light idea may be the brightest idea.

mrgaa1

Perhaps look at replacing it with some sort of all weather play area that is open - no walls etc... - and that could be used for football, basketball/netball etc... and perhaps organise with a few parents a midnight soccer league (or whatever sport). Doesn't have to be midnight of course but I know of quite a few towns that have done this and it certainly has kept the teenage hoodlum problems to a minimum.

Perhaps talking to the local council may work. Also if its a playground it may already be a rubber based surface. By taking out the swings etc... it will leave holes but if you contact companies like All-Play or local building contractors they may have surplus rubber mats which could be put into their place. Then with a little media spin it could be a win win for all and make the estate look like a great place to live in plus will give a little publicity to the company that provided the extra bits for free.

personally taking it away will not help because where do the kids go after that? Out of sight - up to no good

Cadiz

Good ideas all, and this is what I've been saying to property management co - that there are plenty of other 'bright ideas' .

However I fear that the other owners, particularly investor owners, supported by the property company will take the easiest and cheapest route if they can get away with it - ie take the playground out of there altogether.

So my real question is -
a) can they do this, can they get away with that?
b) can I do anything to stop them (apart from voting against it at AGM I mean, obviously)?

Kipperhell

Lighting doesn't work in a park near me so I don't see why it would work every time. As far as I can tell the OP wants to circumvent a democratic vote by any means. Planning is not likely to be effected as it will still be a play area.

Extra insurance costs are probably incurred by having the playground.

You could suggest hiring a surveillance company and then charge the people caught with the costs along with legal costs. It is apparently becoming popular in the UK. Similar laws here might allow for it.

Cadiz

Kipperhell wrote: »

As far as I can tell the OP wants to circumvent a democratic vote by any means.

The OP wants to stop a bunch of ignorant, short-term focussed investor landlords from taking a step that will damage her community in the longterm and cost us all more in taxes in the bigger scheme of things.

But yes, she is also wants to overrule a democratic vote if there is a means to do it, she has to hold her hands up on that, by invoking the planning regs that our democratic system has introduced - if they are relevant here.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Extra insurance costs are probably incurred by having the playground.

The OP couldn't give a monkey's about the extra insurance cost. Spread out over an entire estate these are not high. Extra prison costs, hospital costs due to soaring rates of obesity related diabetes (no playgrounds = kids sitting at home on playstation and getting fat), this is the kind of dent on her tax dollar that she cares about.

Kipperhell wrote: »

You could suggest hiring a surveillance company and then charge the people caught with the costs along with legal costs. It is apparently becoming popular in the UK. Similar laws here might allow for it.

It has indeed become popular in the UK. We've done it in my apartment building in Dublin too. It's a deeply depressing development but I can see why it's become popular.

I would prefer to try lighting, fencing etc. and community Garda doing their job first.

Sesshoumaru

How about installing a simple speaker system there and play classical music at certain hours of the day when the trouble makers hang out there?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4154711.stm

Cadiz

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

How about installing a simple speaker system there and play classical music at certain hours of the day when the trouble makers hang out there?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4154711.stm

Interesting idea! Sad that classical music is so horrific to them, but if it works it works!

I've heard also of this high pitched sound speaker that emits a sound that can only be heard by people under 20 because your range of hearing narrows as you get older. Used outside chippys and things. Teens can't bear it but adults can't hear it at all.

Sesshoumaru

Cadiz wrote: »

Interesting idea! Sad that classical music is so horrific to them, but if it works it works!

I've heard also of this high pitched sound speaker that emits a sound that can only be heard by people under 20 because your range of hearing narrows as you get older. Used outside chippys and things. Teens can't bear it but adults can't hear it at all.

I think we've discussed that sound emitter before, it may not be legal in Ireland. However I don't see the problem with classical music being used as long as you pay whatever small royalty fee there is.

Jaysoose

Cadiz wrote: »

Kipperhell wrote: »

As far as I can tell the OP wants to circumvent a democratic vote by any means.

The OP wants to stop a bunch of ignorant, short-term focussed investor landlords from taking a step that will damage her community in the longterm and cost us all more in taxes in the bigger scheme of things.

But yes, she is also wants to overrule a democratic vote if there is a means to do it, she has to hold her hands up on that, by invoking the planning regs that our democratic system has introduced - if they are relevant here.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Extra insurance costs are probably incurred by having the playground.

The OP couldn't give a monkey's about the extra insurance cost. Spread out over an entire estate these are not high. Extra prison costs, hospital costs due to soaring rates of obesity related diabetes (no playgrounds = kids sitting at home on playstation and getting fat), this is the kind of dent on her tax dollar that she cares about.



It has indeed become popular in the UK. We've done it in my apartment building in Dublin too. It's a deeply depressing development but I can see why it's become popular.

I would prefer to try lighting, fencing etc. and community Garda doing their job first.

I have to say this thread is cheering me up no end, are you trying to say that the small playground in your estate is singlehandedly keeping the levels of obesity down along with the numbers being sent to prison in your area?

What extra taxes?

Amhran Nua

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I think we've discussed that sound emitter before, it may not be legal in Ireland. However I don't see the problem with classical music being used as long as you pay whatever small royalty fee there is.

Mosquitoes are not illegal, they are used outside the McDonalds down the road from me. There is also no royalty fee for most classical music since its far out of copyright.

Cadiz

Kipperhell wrote: »

I have to say this thread is cheering me up no end, are you trying to say that the small playground in your estate is singlehandedly keeping the levels of obesity down along with the numbers being sent to prison in your area?

What extra taxes?

Eh no, that's not what I've said, that's the interpretation you've put on it all by your ownsome. However what I am saying is that the link between poor public amenities for children and its drain on the exchequer is obvious - have a think and you'll work it out for yourself.

herya

They'll remove the playground and the teens will simply sit on the patch of grass left in its play. Where's the gain?

the_syco

Cadiz wrote: »

Interesting idea! Sad that classical music is so horrific to them, but if it works it works!

I've heard also of this high pitched sound speaker that emits a sound that can only be heard by people under 20 because your range of hearing narrows as you get older. Used outside chippys and things. Teens can't bear it but adults can't hear it at all.

I'd say this would be shot down fairly quickly, as the kids using the playground would be under 20.

Jaysoose

Cadiz wrote: »

Eh no, that's not what I've said, that's the interpretation you've put on it all by your ownsome. However what I am saying is that the link between poor public amenities for children and its drain on the exchequer is obvious - have a think and you'll work it out for yourself.

Its exactly what you said......Blam

Extra prison costs, hospital costs due to soaring rates of obesity related diabetes (no playgrounds = kids sitting at home on playstation and getting fat), this is the kind of dent on her tax dollar that she cares about.

Ahem.

Cadiz

Jaysoose wrote: »

Its exactly what you said......Blam

Extra prison costs, hospital costs due to soaring rates of obesity related diabetes (no playgrounds = kids sitting at home on playstation and getting fat), this is the kind of dent on her tax dollar that she cares about.

Ahem.

Correct. I didn't say "a small playground in your estate is singlehandedly keeping the levels of obesity down along with the numbers being sent to prison in my area" - you misinterpreted it that way all by yourself.

Cadiz

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say this would be shot down fairly quickly, as the kids using the playground would be under 20.

Yeah but presumably you could switch the thing off during the day, switch it on at night maybe?

Cadiz

herya wrote: »

They'll remove the playground and the teens will simply sit on the patch of grass left in its play. Where's the gain?

Exactly - not only is it a stupid, ignorant idea, if it is carried out it's not going to work anyway.

Sesshoumaru

Cadiz wrote: »

Exactly - not only is it a stupid, ignorant idea, if it is carried out it's not going to work anyway.

So are you going to suggest classical music? Let us know the outcome either way

Cadiz

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

So are you going to suggest classical music? Let us know the outcome either way

Will suggest Daniel O'Donnell or Celine Dion maybe

Victor

The solution is to provide some activity to keep the teenagers occupied.

Some playgrounds also impose a "if you are over 14 years, you have to be with an under 14 year old to be int he plaground" rule.

Kipperhell

herya wrote: »

They'll remove the playground and the teens will simply sit on the patch of grass left in its play. Where's the gain?

They removed a playground near us and the impact was immediate with no more teenager hanging around there. Simply there was no point going there as there was nothing to sit on other than wet grass.

Amazingly it don't cause the children in the area to suddenly get fat and start committing crimes.

It is a complete exaggeration to suggest such a correspondence between small facilities and children's' health.

I lived in an area that had very few facilities on it's own and we had to go to the bad areas because they had all the facilities. The mentality families come from is much more of an issue than some playground. There are people out there who would rather light a car on fire than participate in sport or any constructive activity.

Cadiz

Kipperhell wrote: »

It is a complete exaggeration to suggest such a correspondence between small facilities and children's' health.

.

Talked to many people who work with children/have children about that? Done much reading or research on the area? No, didn't think so. Glad I don't live near you Kipper, must be a grim environment!

Anyway the parents in the area don't share your slash and-burn-view of facilities for children. They turned up at the AGM in force and said it wasn't on.

So lights, better security, area locked off better at night (moderate, sensible solutions) prevailed.

Suggested mosquito device, but chickened out re classical music. No one believed mosquito thing existed

Kipperhell

Cadiz wrote: »

Talked to many people who work with children/have children about that? Done much reading or research on the area? No, didn't think so. Glad I don't live near you Kipper, must be a grim environment!

Anyway the parents in the area don't share your slash and-burn-view of facilities for children.

Actually I have read up on the issue of children's health and juvenile crime. Friends are teachers in the toughest areas in Ireland. I live in an area with one of the oldest resident's committees in the country. It is very well catered for area.

At no point did I say it should be removed just pointed out it is rather exaggerated to suggest a small play ground would save the tax payers large amounts of cash by solving the obesity problems. Considering the residents made their decision your whole thread was an exaggeration.

herya

Kipperhell wrote: »

At no point did I say it should be removed just pointed out it is rather exaggerated to suggest a small play ground would save the tax payers large amounts of cash by solving the obesity problems. Considering the residents made their decision your whole thread was an exaggeration.

This is a classic "what if everybody did it" situation. Will the removal of one playground have a detrimental effect? Most likely no. Would the removal of all playgrounds have such an effect? Most likely yes. How do you make sure there are enough playgrounds left? Nobody knows but nobody cares as long as those troublesome teens are removed from their sight.

Paulw

Getting planning permission to remove a playground will be very very difficult. With anti-social problems, the council will more likely advise better security and more Gardai activity.

What the residents should do is call the Gardai every time a group start to hang out at the playground. Maybe a bit drastic, but it will work.

Removing a playground won't solve anything at all.

D3PO

its probably fair to assume they are congregating there because its an open space. removing the playground isnt going to solve that issue as it will still be an open space.

Cadiz

Paulw wrote: »

Getting planning permission to remove a playground will be very very difficult. With anti-social problems, the council will more likely advise better security and more Gardai activity.

What the residents should do is call the Gardai every time a group start to hang out at the playground. Maybe a bit drastic, but it will work.

Removing a playground won't solve anything at all.

Yep, that was what the jist of the discussion was really, better security and more garda drive-by.

Cadiz

Kipperhell wrote: »

Considering the residents made their decision your whole thread was an exaggeration.

My psychic antennae weren't working on full power this week Kipper , hence I couldn't predict the happy outcome in advance and I wanted to be prepared.

But it's great that you're so pleased for us - thanks for all the support!

You must be an invaluable and informed asset to your residence association.