Rip off clare

drumaneen

This is all a sorry tale of woeful attractions in Clare, my home county (the Tunnel of Goats Syndrome (viz-a-viz Father Ted))

but I still want to add The Vandeleur Walled Garden;

described as "Once the forgotten garden of Kilrush House, home to the Vandeleur landlords, this garden has been redesigned for the 21st Century around the old path system. Beautifully constructed old stonewalls still surround the garden and it specialises in many unusual and tender plants that thrive in the area's uniquely western latitude microclimate"

Potentialy a classic Victorian walled garden setting with greenhouses etc in which to develop and display how such Big House gardens worked and also an opportunity for gardening archeology and horticultural instruction and production - all it needed was faithful RESTORATION; but the eejits created a tiny municipal park, mainly lawn and threw in a few sculptures (of the local 'hippy artist' kind). Sure there is a smattering of exotics in lip service to the local climate ....

For this they Charge 5 Euro/adult. We was around it in 10 minutes I swear to God we didn't miss anything. I felt mugged -- and terrifically embarassed cos we took American visitors with us who were equally stunned at the lack of amenity and engagement of what is there.

Any City Park is likely to be bigger, better and ABSOLUTELY FREE!

The unblinking nerve of all of these places in what they charge is quite breathtaking.

buck65

Homer , I was at the causeway recently and the car park is £6 so what you say is not entirely true. Of course you can park in the hotel nearby for free. Unlike the Cliffs where apart from a few gateways there is no alternative.

homer simpson

I didn't think it was that dear, i thought it was £3, obhiously i was wrong then so, how much was the bus do you remember? very little info online about priceing.

Teadrinker

http://www.giantscausewaycentre.com

Under section on Visitor Services



Audio-Visual Presentation: Adult £1.00, Child 50p, Family £2.50.
Groups: Adult 80p, Child 40p
Car park: Cars £6.00 (All day parking) Coaches £20.00; Mini-coach £7.50; Campervans £7.50
Causeway Coaster minibus: Adult return £2 Child return £1

buck65

homer_simpson wrote: »

I didn't think it was that dear, i thought it was £3, obhiously i was wrong then so, how much was the bus do you remember? very little info online about priceing.

Ya lazy git, half the fun is trying not to fall down that mad steep hill on the way down and dealing with the oxygen debt and lactic acid on the way back up!

monkeypants

Go north and see the Marble Arch caves in Fermanagh and the Giant's Causeway. I've seen the Cliffs of Moher, but I didn't pay for it.

Mcloke

murraymarmalade wrote: »

rip of clare contd

templegate hotel 2.65 for a 200ml bottle of coke.good god how is this place still open,once bitten twice shy in my case.:mad:

As a non drinking who would order a pint of 7-up etc I can confirm that I have very rarely paid less than €5 in Clare and other counties in hotels, bars, restaurants etc. The most expensive I can remember was €6 and we wonder why the country has a drink driving problem?!?

Now in saying that I have lived in Clare nearly 6 years and agree that it rips off people totally at tourist attraction in particular. The Cliffs can complain about a loss but if they didn't charge so much they would get more regular local visitors who just don't go anymore and what is more having been there recently I was horrified to see the state of the car park considering they are charging €8 to park your car it was full of massive pot holes! They wonder why the tourist numbers are down....it is just too expensive.

Mcloke

Teadrinker wrote: »

Seems the staff's three day week,which they will be on till February or so, means an 18% paycut.

Ah yes but it is not like taking an 18% paycut as you can claim the dole for your two days and do what you like with your time. An 18% paycut involves working the same hours as before but simply for less money

Mcloke

buck65 wrote: »

You can't really see it from the roadside though.
It's probably worth it to see it once, it just puts off the repeat business by charging so much.
I live in Ennis and in the past would visit the Cliffs 3/4 times a year. I have been twice in the past few years since the carpark charges went high.

Ditto

luap_42

There are quite a few ways around paying the official car park fees.

Don't pay for parking when I go there myself, or pay for anything in the tourist trap. You can walk in free to the cliffs and visitor centre and shops.

The council in all their absurd corruption has put double yellow lines half a mile in each direction on both sides of the road from the main entrance. One nearby layby which used to be parked in a couple of years ago, has been filled with earth by the council recently to prevent people from escaping the car park.

If you are an outdoor person, you'll find a way to avoid the car park.

loctite

luap_42 wrote: »

The council in all their absurd corruption has put double yellow lines half a mile in each direction on both sides of the road from the main entrance.

C'mon now in fairness... I have never been one to defend the co.council, but the road is fairly narrow, and if everyone parked on it, it would be chaos especially for the locals....

But yes believe council are corrupt and are being bought off by big business such as the golf course in Doonbeg when they are voting to close off public access with out waiting for a judicial review......

luap_42

loctite wrote: »

C'mon now in fairness... I have never been one to defend the co.council, but the road is fairly narrow, and if everyone parked on it, it would be chaos especially for the locals....

But yes believe council are corrupt and are being bought off by big business such as the golf course in Doonbeg when they are voting to close off public access with out waiting for a judicial review......

True, but they still dumped earth in the natural layby north of the main entrance to prevent people from parking there.

Don't talk to me about Doonbeg. Been surfing there since 1984.

Dune systems are protected environments that are not supposed to be developed, but maintained, protected and managed.

So what do CCC do? Allow big American money to build a golf course right across the entire dune system, and a disgusting eyesore four storey hotel (which only had permission for two storeys), but no enforcement taken. The same "planner" then allows a whole sh1tload of houses to be built alongside the dunes. Eyesore is to good a word for the farce. Found out that the "planner" who "granted" both permissions is now the area enforcement officer with CCC.

Corrupt? Definitely. Imagine how much money CCC made out of that one.

Flan45

Ah get off your high horse, 99% of the locals are delighted that the golf course is there. It created jobs in the construction phase and continues to now that it's up and running. As much care as possible was taken not to disturb the dunes, the developers had to obtain planning like any other person would.

If you have evidence of the corruption you speak of then spit it out otherwise zip it.

zenmonk

I saw a CCC planner wearing a big fur coat and had a crown on cycling down the street the other day.
Looked fairly dodge:D

luap_42

Flan45 wrote: »

Ah get off your high horse, 99% of the locals are delighted that the golf course is there. It created jobs in the construction phase and continues to now that it's up and running. As much care as possible was taken not to disturb the dunes, the developers had to obtain planning like any other person would.

If you have evidence of the corruption you speak of then spit it out otherwise zip it.

Listen sunshine, I have plenty of evidence of planning corruption in CCC. It is endemic. All you need to do is check their own planning files. See how politicians (local, T.D and ministers) interfere with what should be straightforward planning and reverse proper planning. See how the planners follow the money first and development plan and planning rules second or not at all if it conflicts with money or politics.

Regarding Doonbeg, all you have to do is check the planning files. They were given permission for a two storey hotel(maximum they could get away with), as that was all that was allowed by the council, they built three and a half storeys, then applied for retention, then the council allowed it, no enforcement, no problem. Why? Development contribution to CCC, local politicians, jobs. Proper planning goes out the door. Environment although protected in development plan is completely ignored by CCC.

As far as I'm concerned those officials should be in jail for making these decisions and ignorning development plan policy. To make things even worse, they then build the second eyesore in the same environment, a massive block of holiday homes, completely out of place, and at the same time no local person can get permission for a single house anywhere outside a town! That is corruption by any definition of the word. Same planner gave permission, although decision is made by consensus meeting in the planning department. Development plans are there for a reason. If you don't know why, then don't even think about commenting.

As for everything else, they are open and current and until they are closed I'm saying nothing to the likes of you.

Regarding locals. F%^k them. I have two friends working there. They can travel for jobs like everyone else who has the type of job that the golf course/hotel provides. That does not absolve wrecking the dune system, and putting two large built eyesores in this environment. If you don't know the value of this type of environment, then you should check it first before you make crass comments. You obviously know nothing about planning.

You are the kind who doesn't care about proper planning at all, as long as there is money in it. You and your kind have proper f&*^d this country, and believe me sunshine, you will find me standing in your way every time.

Flan45

If you have all this evidence then why don't you load your files into the back of your station wagon and give them to the relevant authorities. I'm not aware of any CCC employee currently up on corruption charges, do you make a habit of making baseless accusations?

Correct me if I'm wrong but under our planning laws there is nothing to stop someone from applying for retention. It happens in every county in Ireland. I'm sure the golf course made their case and it was accepted.

As far as the second development being an eyesore that's your opinion and your welcome to it, we're not living in North Korea so I think I'm entitled to disagree with you.

Regarding locals not being able to get planning out side of a town that's complete rubbish, you only have to drive around the locality to see the amount of one off houses built over the last 10 years. I know a number of locals who have built, some had no problem getting planning and some had great difficulty.

If you had your way we'd still be living in tents knocking two pieces of flint together and walking 5 miles to the nearest well to get a bucket of water.

zenmonk

Lads ye're both right in a way. Some of the CCC planners are no doubt doing their best to follow the guidelines but there are a hell of alot of dodgy things going on too. Building on flood plains on the Quin Rd is one for instance.
I know a CCC planner who was very strict on planning, since moved on, who was regularly badgered and bullied by builders and individuals. She never accepted a bribe but led me to believe it could be something that could be offered on occasion.
This planner was not liked by the builder obviously. Just saying there are good ones out there as well but yeah some of the things that have happened in Clare over the past 15 years are baffling.

luap_42

Flan45 wrote: »

If you have all this evidence then why don't you load your files into the back of your station wagon and give them to the relevant authorities. I'm not aware of any CCC employee currently up on corruption charges, do you make a habit of making baseless accusations?.

I take it you drive a statiowagon then. The CCC operates technically inside the law, but not as the law was originally intended in the 2000 planning & development act. They also operate outside their own development plan. Why? Because the law will not stop them. John Gormley has amended the planning act this year and this will shortly become law and stop their activities. If you want to see how the Royal Institue of Architects of Ireland rate CCC as having worst local authority planning decisions in the country: http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/07/17/story67524.asp

Flan45 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but under our planning laws there is nothing to stop someone from applying for retention. It happens in every county in Ireland. I'm sure the golf course made their case and it was accepted.

I'm correcting you. You are wrong. That is precisely what the 2000 planning & development act did (make retention illegal), but certain judiciary interprete the exact wording to allow retention, hence the plugging of this loophole this year, shortly to become law. Not before time. Retention is a joke and should not be allowed, except for MINOR ACCIDENTAL infractions. That is what will be the case once the 2009 amendments are enacted. It took them 8 years to plug the loophole, because Gormley is now in a position of more bargaining power with FF.

Flan45 wrote: »

As far as the second development being an eyesore that's your opinion and your welcome to it, we're not living in North Korea so I think I'm entitled to disagree with you.

It's not an opinion. All development plans prescribe against building large buildings in untouched areas. Previous to Doonbeg Golf Club there were only a handful of houses in the entire strech of land behind the dunes. Development is supposed to be connected to towns with infrastructure according to their own development policies.

Flan45 wrote: »

Regarding locals not being able to get planning out side of a town that's complete rubbish, you only have to drive around the locality to see the amount of one off houses built over the last 10 years. I know a number of locals who have built, some had no problem getting planning and some had great difficulty.

True some locals get permission outside of towns, but ALL large developments that bring in money to CCC will get permission no matter where they are. In every case. CCC turns down no-one with large wads of cash. That is not planning, it is systemic corruption.

Flan45 wrote: »

If you had your way we'd still be living in tents knocking two pieces of flint together and walking 5 miles to the nearest well to get a bucket of water.

Not at all. There is a right way and a wrong way to allow planning. Most decisions are not controversial, they are straightforward, but can be influenced by politicians (with a contribution to the party) and money (development contribution into CCC's coffers). Only in Ireland do we allow politicians and money to intervene in proper planning. Elsewhere in Europe there is no controversy, since all the work is done by planners, no appeals, no breaking laws, everyone knows where they stand.

finbarrk

The majority of locals have nothing against the Golf Club, it's a positive thing in the area. And it's a fine building also.

Flan45

Luap, I agree with alot of what you say.

Retention would be fine if it wasn't abused, anyway it's academic now if what you say is correct and the loop hole is to be closed.

I just took issue with what I perceived was you brushing every planner with the same brush, for all those that are easily influenced there are many that are trying to do the job in what is, at the moment anyway a flawed system.

luap_42

Flan45 wrote: »

Luap, I agree with alot of what you say.

Retention would be fine if it wasn't abused, anyway it's academic now if what you say is correct and the loop hole is to be closed.

I just took issue with what I perceived was you brushing every planner with the same brush, for all those that are easily influenced there are many that are trying to do the job in what is, at the moment anyway a flawed system.

It's not always individual planners that are the problem, until they give up and take the easy road, or else leave. It's the entire culture in the planning department from the top down. Development means money, big politicians weighing in means heavy pressure. Checks and balances go out the window, decisions are blatantly manipulated to suit the CCC's income outcome rather than examined to determine the correct planning outcome. I'm sure there are good planners from time to time in CCC, but there certainly have been none in West or North Clare at any time. Look at the blots on the landscape that are Lahinch and Liscannor. If there were external audits of planning decisions CCC would fail it every time.

I agree the gold club is a fine building, that is only part of the issue though. It is in the wrong place. Especially for the size of building which they were not originally given permission for and probably would not have gotten permission for. The increased the bulk and height by back door illegal planning: retention. CCC was complicit in this as they always are in every case of big money and retention.

OldGuysRule

Luap

What damage has been caused to the dune system, by the golf club? Would be interested to hear.

Furthermore, not everyone (including surfers) holds your opinion that the hotel is a 'disgusting eyesore', in fact in your most recent post you acknowledge it is a 'fine building'. I am not here to defend the golf club and have in fact clashed swords with them on a few issues in the past.

Dr Kamikazi

Clare Co Co have made some fine planning decisions and this one has got to be one of the best, a housing estate built where it can get a bit wet, but sure who cares, the land was cheap...
http://www.clarecoco.ie/Photogallery/images/Willow_Park.jpg
Honestly, that is evidence screaming you in the face while pounding your head, anyone who allowed this to be built should be drowned in a vat of cat's pee.
My point being that glaring mistakes like this mean I have absolutely no confidence in any planning permission given out in Clare whatsoever. And if it's a case of one bad apple, I'd throw out the vat cause the rest can't be trusted anymore.

loctite

OldGuysRule wrote: »

Luap

What damage has been caused to the dune system, by the golf club? Would be interested to hear.

Think of all those helpless little snails getting impaled under the fat American golf shoes.......

finbarrk

luap_42 wrote: »

It's not always individual planners that are the problem, until they give up and take the easy road, or else leave. It's the entire culture in the planning department from the top down. Development means money, big politicians weighing in means heavy pressure. Checks and balances go out the window, decisions are blatantly manipulated to suit the CCC's income outcome rather than examined to determine the correct planning outcome. I'm sure there are good planners from time to time in CCC, but there certainly have been none in West or North Clare at any time. Look at the blots on the landscape that are Lahinch and Liscannor. If there were external audits of planning decisions CCC would fail it every time.

I agree the gold club is a fine building, that is only part of the issue though. It is in the wrong place. Especially for the size of building which they were not originally given permission for and probably would not have gotten permission for. The increased the bulk and height by back door illegal planning: retention. CCC was complicit in this as they always are in every case of big money and retention.

Great, you admit it's a fine building. Where else were they supposed to put it? Out on the beach is it?
As someone else said , you are on a high horse.

H1tmonlii

What's so great about the cliffs anyways?

zenmonk

The car park...

luap_42

finbarrk wrote: »

Great, you admit it's a fine building. Where else were they supposed to put it? Out on the beach is it?
As someone else said , you are on a high horse.

Mate, if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, then don't bother commenting.

I said the building is fine, but IN THE WRONG PLACE.

You are yet another planning-ignorant who does not understand that proper planning is completely intertwined with choosing the correct location. Dune habitats are protected under EU law (European Council Directive on the Conservation of Habitats, Flora and Fauna 92/43/EEC), but completely ignored by Irish local planning authorities. They bend the planning system any way they can in order to get their grubby hands on the development contribution, and please the local politician who is bending their ear.

CCC has been voted as the worst for planning decisions by the Royal Institute of Irish Architects. Worse than any other county, and their are some really, really bad local authorities out there, e.g. Kerry. There is definite systemic corruption in CCC's planning department, and the golf club is just another example of it. If you actually read the entire thread you'll see that I've already summarised the history of the planning corruption for the golf club planning. If you are actually interested, instead of just trolling, then go to CCC's planning enquiries and check the documents yourself. Otherwise, get off your own high horse.

Here's a question for you: In what way is a golf course, a massive golf club building and 30 large two storey holiday homes contibuting to the protection of the dune habitat?

People like you (and I know there are many) will not be happy until there are golf courses, housing estates, and whatever other inappropriate developments all over the countryside, as long as it brings in money for the locals. The same locals will long dead and gone, when the same destruction of our country is left behind, eyesore after eyesore instead of our natural environment which is irreplacable.

luap_42

OldGuysRule wrote: »

Luap

What damage has been caused to the dune system, by the golf club? Would be interested to hear.

Furthermore, not everyone (including surfers) holds your opinion that the hotel is a 'disgusting eyesore', in fact in your most recent post you acknowledge it is a 'fine building'. I am not here to defend the golf club and have in fact clashed swords with them on a few issues in the past.

I never said anything about surfers having a better viewpoint on proper planning than anyone else. I merely said I have been surfing there since the early 1980's. The building is in the wrong location. It is contrary to all principles of proper planning. In short: leave the natural environment as is, we have little enough of it left, although far more than most European countries. There's plenty of unused farmland that is not in protected habitats that can be used for golfing. Links golf courses are a no-no, as they require dunes, which are protected habitats. Ireland (usually via local authority) is in breach of EU law with respect to protected habitats time after time.

I believe the golf club has tried to apply for permission for more fencing on the dunes which is totally inappropriate (and has been objected to and refused). I'm not sure of the current status of this fencing, except that the original fencing was falling apart and taking the edge of the dunes down with it.

OldGuysRule

We are well off topic here, however,

I believe the golf club has tried to apply for permission for more fencing on the dunes which is totally inappropriate (and has been objected to and refused). I'm not sure of the current status of this fencing, except that the original fencing was falling apart and taking the edge of the dunes down with it.

Might be worth checking it out for yourself, it is a lot more than fencing. For information, the golf club were not refused permission for fencing, it was full on rock armour initially proposed.

However, your statement that the (sandtrap) fencing is inappropriate for the dunes is incorrect. You could do well to research a document called ECOPRO regarding coastal zone and dune system management fo Ireland.

The 'original' fencing was placed in recent years inan attempt to stabilise the dune just north of the centre of the beach, however it has failed. I am intrigued by your suggestion that they are taking the dunes down with them, that is quite sensationalist.

As noted above, I have no link wit the golf club and have spent a lot of my own time researching and responding to various planning applications made. I have also got directly involved in meeting with the golf club and their representatives to discuss these matters, face to face, not through face less forums or idle speculation / sensationalism.

It is amazing how easy it is to deal with people when direct approaches are made and facts discussed.