The knowledge economy myth

Peanut · 23-10-2009 8:44am

Another good example of a recent outsourcing disaster is the problems currently facing Boeing. Their new management thought that they could cut costs and risk by modularising and outsourcing various components of the new Dreamliner.

Needless to say the process went mostly pear-shaped, there's an article with some funny comments about it here

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 10:23am

jmayo wrote: »

Oh and this last point also applies to the new cuckoos on the block, amhrain nua, who appear to have adopted the cast off green party policies. :rolleyes:

My advice to you would be to stick to the topic of the thread and not try to start arguments.

Peanut wrote: »

I don't think the IP aspect is that important when talking about developing a tech. sector. In the software industry at least, the focus has moved away from selling packaged products, to providing a service which may be delivered over the web for example.

The IP aspect is one of the most important ones in any industry, but especially software where the barrier to entry is so low. And you can run web based services just as well from India or China - indeed, even better since you don't have to directly interact with customers.

Peanut wrote: »

As mentioned in previous posts, the drink culture and compulsory Irish in secondary don't exactly help much either.

Its not uncommon for schools everywhere to have two or three languages on the curriculum. There are major cultural advantages to retaining our own language, and there could be economic advantages if the government had played it right - how large is the Irish diaspora?

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Developing states. It's slightly bizarre that someone who is trying to hawk a political party doesn't know that

Doesn't know how to be pedantic?

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Developing states are already shackled in to "respecting" the West's IP through the TRIPs agreement.

And yet it doesn't seem to bother the likes of China in the slightest, where the factories work for the western bosses by day and the Chinese bosses by night.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

If any developing state seriously infringes the TRIPs agreement, they tend to be dragged before the WTO and told to shape up.

Both India and China have the economic punch to roundly ignore the WTO - thats why they have been able to get away with pegging their currencies to the dollar for so long, keeping exports artificially low.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

If you're worried that China or India will take all our IPs, I gotta wonder if it's occurred to you that China or India may well soon have IPs that they want protected

Protection in the west and protection elsewhere are two different things. Both countries severely restrict access to their internal markets for western companies.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Because they have massive populations. Do you think Ireland, with a population of 4 million, can compete with the US, India, Germany, Brazil, or China in manufacturing? Really? Really?

Other countries besides the five you mention manufacture and export goods successfully. Denmark is around our population and they had four billion in wind energy related exports alone last year. So yes, really.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

The sad fact is that the only competitive advantage this country possibly has is in its citizens heads. It doesn't have any advantage when it comes to manufacturing, so pursuing that as the main drive of our economy is tantamount to suicide.

Bertie, is that you?

Permabear · 23-10-2009 1:00pm

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Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 1:24pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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As a libertarian you'd be in favour of policies which are spartan to the point of being counterproductive though, including the complete abolition of social welfare, if I'm not mistaken. You can argue that point but I doubt most people would be in favour of it.

There is a wide diaspora of Irish descended people across the world, numbering many times the population of the state, who given the opportunity would be quite willing to travel to Ireland to learn the language and experience the culture, if it was set up right. Thats only the direct benefit; in social and cultural terms a language has many benefits. It is a part of our culture, history and heritage, and it would be negligent in the extreme to allow a temporary economic situation to deprive us of that.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Our party charter specifically says that religion has no place in the state apparatus, and this extends to education as well, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it.

thebman · 23-10-2009 1:31pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As a libertarian you'd be in favour of policies which are spartan to the point of being counterproductive though, including the complete abolition of social welfare, if I'm not mistaken. You can argue that point but I doubt most people would be in favour of it.

There is a wide diaspora of Irish descended people across the world, numbering many times the population of the state, who given the opportunity would be quite willing to travel to Ireland to learn the language and experience the culture, if it was set up right. Thats only the direct benefit; in social and cultural terms a language has many benefits. It is a part of our culture, history and heritage, and it would be negligent in the extreme to allow a temporary economic situation to deprive us of that.

Our party charter specifically says that religion has no place in the state apparatus, and this extends to education as well, so I'm not sure why you're mentioning it.

Language is only a small part of culture though, people already come for the culture be it leprechauns or guinness.

I don't think more would come if we spoke Irish. If anything less people would come because they'd be unsure if we spoke English still.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 1:31pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As a libertarian you'd be in favour of policies which are spartan to the point of being counterproductive though, including the complete abolition of social welfare, if I'm not mistaken. You can argue that point but I doubt most people would be in favour of it.

im not libertarian but do lean in the direction

most people would not vote for cuts of course (turkeys dont vote for xmas) this can be seen from PS strike thingie

but once IMF steps in, well you just handed your vote and sovereignty away

if your bankrupt, and ireland is technically bankrupt theres are only two ways out of it

* increase productivity (like thats gona happen)
* or decrease costs

its quite simple

we cant default like argentina and wipe the debts of as that would bring the euro down and then the EU itself

Permabear · 23-10-2009 1:43pm

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Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 4:31pm

thebman wrote: »

I don't think more would come if we spoke Irish. If anything less people would come because they'd be unsure if we spoke English still.

Language barriers don't stop tourist destinations getting tourists in. The point is moot anyway since there would be no language barrier.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but once IMF steps in, well you just handed your vote and sovereignty away

Do you really think the ECB is going to let a European member state fall under the auspices of the IMF? They don't need to, they are quite capable of turning the screws themselves.

donegalfella wrote: »

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So lets cut to the chase here - you want to abolish social welfare and replace it with, what was the last I heard from the libertarians, friendly societies?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thanks for the update. We have advantages in our national culture and we'd better get leveraging every single one of those if we want to come through this in decent shape. It defies belief that someone might want to discard an economic advantage because it clashes with your view of what a modern country should be. The fact that we should be working on industrial growth and education does not indicate we should drop the multi billion euro tourism industry.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, but then again you want to abolish social welfare, so I don't have a lot of faith in your vision.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 4:35pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Do you really think the ECB is going to let a European member state fall under the auspices of the IMF? They don't need to, they are quite capable of turning the screws themselves.

IMF or ECB doesnt make difference

if we let the countries finances fall further we would effectively be hanging our sovereignty over to third party "liquidators"

as I said before let them all strike in the PS, they are only hurting themselves and rest of the country down the road

the country is bankrupt, PS not working and striking will only impact (ha the irony!) productivity of whole economy and send this country deeper into ****

let them strike

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 4:38pm

So would you also advocate the complete abolition of social welfare?

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 4:53pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So would you also advocate the complete abolition of social welfare?

not at all! i understand there is a need for welfare (lets call it unemployment insurance), just no need to have the most generous system in the world and the most wasteful like we do now

20-25% cut initially

then change it to a system like US (and Germany?) where first year unemployed you get ~70% of your last years salary, then it halved every year after that

we have 100k people who didn't bother getting a job when there were plenty and are still living of the dole

this way the system is fair to the people who work and pay the insurance, and gets the long term unemployed off their asses into education or work

anyways any cuts in welfare would need cuts in minimum wage, its too attractive to get welfare than go get a min wage job

keep the welfare untouched if the person goes and stays at a course hence rewarding people who are training and trying to get out of the trap

Permabear · 23-10-2009 4:59pm

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thebman · 23-10-2009 5:02pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

not at all! i understand there is a need for welfare (lets call it unemployment insurance), just no need to have the most generous system in the world and the most wasteful like we do now

20-25% cut initially

then change it to a system like US (and Germany?) where first year unemployed you get ~70% of your last years salary, then it halved every year after that

we have 100k people who didn't bother getting a job when there were plenty and are still living of the dole

this way the system is fair to the people who work and pay the insurance, and gets the long term unemployed off their asses into education or work

anyways any cuts in welfare would need cuts in minimum wage, its too attractive to get welfare than go get a min wage job

keep the welfare untouched if the person goes and stays at a course hence rewarding people who are training and trying to get out of the trap

Anyone that was unemployed for 2 years or more during "the boom" is unemployable TBH. That is one masssive CV gap that you can't cover up.

Employers know they won't work too and we know they wouldn't work if they were given jobs.

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 5:10pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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That'll do, thanks.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 5:13pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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we spend more abroad than we earn via tourism here

its an important industry but like agriculture there aint much more room to grow

if anything we have to stop ripping tourists off

donegalfella wrote: »

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it is, there is a need for social insurance, but like everything life it needs to be done in moderation, we went crazy there and now ended up with an expensive welfare state

donegalfella wrote: »

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exactly there are alot of jobs still available but are not being filled since we dont know many european languages

take paypal who created new positions few weeks ago > http://www.paypaljobsireland.com/opportunities.asp

Current Opportunities include:
Customer Service Agents with the following languages:
German/Italian/Spanish/English/Dutch/Polish.
Fluency in English and native language is essential.

Customer Insight Analyst (German or French)
Enterprise Account Manager
German Account Manager
German SMB Account Manager
Lead Business Process Manager
Quality Manager
Senior Director, Merchant Operations
WFM Scheduling Analyst
Immediate start dates.

whats worse is i know that while our 10 year olds are learning long division and jebus crap in schools, kids in other countries at that age are learning the periodic table and algebra :eek:

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 5:17pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

its an important industry but like agriculture there aint much more room to grow

I don't think its been leveraged to a tenth of its potential to be honest. Something like the Tailteann games alone could bring in millions of new tourists and sports fans every year, directly translating to an influx of capital into the economy. I agree that the prices being charged to tourists by the likes of hotels are damaging the economy though.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 5:19pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I don't think its been leveraged to a tenth of its potential to be honest. Something like the Tailteann games alone could bring in millions of new tourists and sports fans every year, directly translating to an influx of capital into the economy. I agree that the prices being charged to tourists by the likes of hotels are damaging the economy though.

i had to google Tailteann games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailteann_Games

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 5:23pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i had to google Tailteann games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailteann_Games

Sorry, its in our cultural policies and I've spent all week explaining it to journalists.

For another example, I know some people sneer at this, but lets look at Riverdance. Together with its derivatives Feet of Flame and Lord of the Dance, its been seen by four times the population of the country; they packed out Hyde Park several times. Serious drawing power. Thats the kind of flash and elan we need to sell the culture of Ireland, along with enhancing our reputation as a green and hospitable country.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 5:27pm

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Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 5:35pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, you want to ditch the Irish language in its entirety, a vital part of our culture and heritage, as well as being a draw to the enormous Irish diaspora. In order to understand its importance you need to understand social and cultural issues, and this is where the question on social welfare comes in. By openly stating that you would see it abolished, you are demonstrating that you have no grasp whatsoever of basic socioeconomics, in the name of dogmatic libertarianism, so its no surprise that you might like to remove the language and who knows what else in the process. Thats your point of view, fair enough, but I doubt most people would agree with it. I certainly don't.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 5:53pm

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Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 6:01pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Growth in science and technology as well as further education in European languages are a must, and we have a few good ideas on how to enhance the process in those areas as well (immersive exchanges via the web), but to sacrifice the historical language of Ireland on the altar of accounting is not a great idea. We're in agreement on quite a few areas I think, although we may never see eye to eye on the Irish language. Some benefits are difficult to measure in cents and euros.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Absolutely, but as other people have pointed out in the thread, there's a wide step between reducing welfare, which is needed, and abolishing it, which is off the deep end.

Heroditas · 23-10-2009 6:18pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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The government/dept of educations' approach for the last few years has been to dumb down honours maths and to an extent some of the science subjects in the Leaving Cert.
All this to create the illusion that students are brighter and can qualify for the 3rd level science subjects that they subsequently drop out of because they are not bright enough.
The department's answer to this? Dumb down the 3rd level degrees. My own degree course is absolutely unrecognizable to when I finished 12 years ago .... and not for the better.

Cannibal Ox · 23-10-2009 6:36pm

Amhran Nua wrote:

Doesn't know how to be pedantic?

Pedantic, maybe :pac: but it's why your post doesn't actually make sense. China and India aren't third world countries, and nor are they developing countries. They're waaaay beyond that at this stage, hence the G20 instead of the G8 (along with the economic crisis that finally precipated the arrival of the G20, but it was something that many countries had been rightly calling for years for). China isn't going to be held by the TRIPs agreement like Benin is, precisely because it isn't a developing state.

What I mean by doesn't make sense is that when you're talking about "third world" countries, you're not actually talking about any country that exists at this moment. If you're talking about any country that isn't in the West, you're not going to get very far in any kind of analysis because there are a handful of countries outside of the West that are now growing to be as powerful as any of the Western states.

Also, it's kinda offensive. Go to Kenya, tell people they're in the third world, and see how far you get....:P

So, in light of my pedanticness, China going before the WTO and Uganda are two entirely different scenarios. So, lets disregard developing states in this because the power relations in the world are set up so they're screwed over each and every time by more powerful states. I agree that China does abuse international IP laws, but I'll go back to what I wrote about India and China becoming more active in international law in regards to protecting their own ideas. I don't think that it's in their interests to continue flouting international trade laws in the way they do, I think they will become more and more concerned with protecting IP when they start producing it on a scale similliar to the West.
(^note to self: why am I arguing for IP laws? There's something deeply disturbing about this

)

As for Denmark, other countries are jumping on the green energy bus. Come back with stats in five years and see how well they're doing then when the big manufacturing states have gone in to full swing with green energy.

Amhran Nua wrote:

Bertie, is that you?

That's incredibly insulting :pac: I actually thought when I was writing that, what the **** am I writing? But than I realised, you know, it's my home and I don't want to see it fall to pieces anymore, so any of my quibbles about capitalism being the ultimate root of evil and injustice in the world were quickly brushed aside. Still, can't say I really agree with myself from a theoretical perspective. Which is a confusing position to be in. I don't like this debate. It's making me in to some kind of capitalist neo-conservative evangelical.

Amhran Nua · 23-10-2009 7:00pm

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Pedantic, maybe :pac: but it's why your post doesn't actually make sense. China and India aren't third world countries, and nor are they developing countries.

That would depend greatly on your definition of third world. Poverty rates in India are astonishing, and I mean $1 a week type poverty, and there are plenty of places in China where it isn't much better. Yes they have ramped up certain high visiblity industries, but the reflection of these gains into the general populace has been sadly lacking to date. Its a process, I know, but when there is a wide and active middle class and the kind of social supports we have here, I'll upgrade the mental rankings so to speak.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I don't think that it's in their interests to continue flouting international trade laws in the way they do, I think they will become more and more concerned with protecting IP when they start producing it on a scale similliar to the West.

Its a valid point, but the main issue is that they have access to western markets and will prosecute violations of their IP in those markets, while we have no real access to their markets, and prosecution of our IP there is problematic at best. China for example has a two year statute of limitations on IP violations - thats from the time when you should have been aware your IP was being violated.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

As for Denmark, other countries are jumping on the green energy bus. Come back with stats in five years and see how well they're doing then when the big manufacturing states have gone in to full swing with green energy.

The big manufacturing states are already in full swing, China has been producing them for some years. Denmark has been competing against the US in this area for years as well. Its not just doable, its done.

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

I actually thought when I was writing that, what the **** am I writing? But than I realised, you know, it's my home and I don't want to see it fall to pieces anymore, so any of my quibbles about capitalism being the ultimate root of evil and injustice in the world were quickly brushed aside. Still, can't say I really agree with myself from a theoretical perspective. Which is a confusing position to be in. I don't like this debate. It's making me in to some kind of capitalist neo-conservative evangelical.

Hahah, not to worry, when we start facing realities we need real solutions, the more of us lay aside political dogma for practical answers, regardless of what side of the spectrum they might be attributed to, the better.

#15 · 23-10-2009 7:27pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Just to clarify my earlier post, religious education is not part of the national curriculum and is only taught in religious-ethos schools. Educate Together and non-denominational schools don't teach religion.

Unfortunately, most schools do have a religious ethos so most children are exposed to religious instruction.

Donegalfella, do you not think there is some cultural value to retaining Irish in the curriculum? Say for example, between 30 and 60 minutes per week. This could be in addition to learning foreign languages.

I want to abolish social welfare and replace it with aggressively pro-business, pro-growth liberal economic policies that ensure that everybody who wants a job can find work, and that everybody who is working can keep more of his own money

This sounds interesting, could you expand more on your ideas?

#15 · 23-10-2009 7:31pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

whats worse is i know that while our 10 year olds are learning long division and jebus crap in schools, kids in other countries at that age are learning the periodic table and algebra :eek:

Actually, our kids start algebra at 7, when they are in first class.

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Mathematics/Mathematics_Curriculum/First_and_second_classes/Content/

The problem most adults have when talking about primary education is that they work on the assumption that the primary curriculum has not changed since they were in school.

Peanut · 23-10-2009 8:25pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, you want to ditch the Irish language in its entirety, a vital part of our culture and heritage, as well as being a draw to the enormous Irish diaspora.
...

I would be happy to see it made non-compulsory. This doesn't mean "destroying our heritage" etc., although for the militant pro-Gaeilge lobby, any attempt at reforming the system is met by accusations of such.

I think it's admirable that you are promoting cultural revival as a political gesture but there is a serious problem with it - it will only ever be an ancillary part of any economic recovery. Pushing it as a primary goal for the future development of the country immediately brings to mind images of dancing at the crossroads for many people.

eoinbn · 23-10-2009 8:41pm

#15 wrote: »

Actually, our kids start algebra at 7, when they are in first class.

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Mathematics/Mathematics_Curriculum/First_and_second_classes/Content/

The problem most adults have when talking about primary education is that they work on the assumption that the primary curriculum has not changed since they were in school.

Oh my...

Taken from link.

"estimate, measure and record weight using standard unit (the kilogram) and solve simple problems".

#15 · 23-10-2009 8:46pm

eoinbn wrote: »

Oh my...

Taken from link.

"estimate, measure and record weight using standard unit (the kilogram) and solve simple problems".

OK, care to elaborate?

My point was about algebra.

The knowledge economy myth

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