Does Jensen Desever To Be A World Champion ?

thegoth

Hi All,

Just want to say that I am very happen Jensen won the world championship. He seems like a really good guy. I am a fan of his. Amazing what a year of no ITV blowing his trumpet once Lewis arrived can change your perception !!!

In my opinion Jensen is the worst driver since Hill to win the world title. What do people think ? Is he in the same category as Schmuacher, Alonso, Senna, or Lewis ? I dont think so.

Lets analyse him

Rookie Season 2000
Did ok against Ralf Schmucaher, but lived for several years by the fact he out qualified Ralf at spa. Over the entire year, Ralf had his number

2001
Had his ass whipped by Fisi

2002
Out qualifed by Trulli for the entire year

2003
Out qualified and out raced Jacques Villeneuve. Lets be honest here. Jacques Villeneuve was a very brave driver, but what teammate of note has he ever beaten over a season ? Jacques Villeneuve won the title in the best car by far on the grid. Even Williams were annoyed that he took him so many races to do it

2004
He beat Sato, as would 95% of the grid

2005
He beat Sato, as would 95% of the grid

2006
He beat Rubens. Fair play. Rubens if a good driver

2007
Rubens and Button very even.

2008
Rubens beats button

2009
Rubens, over the season as a whole had the better qualifying and Jensen had the better race results

Over his whole career, I think its fair to say that Jensen is really fast, but like Trulli, he can not drive a car fast that he isnt happy with, i.e he cannot drive around problems, like say Schmuacher could. He was really fast for the first half of the season when the car was perfect for him, but when it changed, Rubens was stronger.

On the current grid, I would rate Jensen here

Alonso
Lewis
Kimi
Vettel
Webber
Rosberg
Kubica
Jensen

Like I said, I am a fan of his, but this is how I would be thinking if I was a team boss and in the driver market

Kersh

He won 6 races. So yes, he does. In the season that it was, nobody else could put a campaign together.

Its like a driver going well in FFord, struggling in F3, flying in GP2 - sometimes a set of regs and a car just suits a driver. And this year it fell with Jenson.

Neither Red Bull driver nor Rubens could get their **** together, and Jenson could. Vettel will rue is win or bust in round 1 with Kubica.

Also, dont forget while weighing up JBs talent, he won the FFord series and festival, and won 2 races in F3 in the (very underpowered) Renault engined Promatecme run car in 99. Then he won Korea in the end of season F3 international race.

In 2009, he won 6 races. No one else did.

Did ok against Ralf Schmucaher, but lived for several years by the fact he out qualified Ralf at spa. Over the entire year, Ralf had his number

Like you said, rookie year.

Fisi was not too bad back then.

Out qualifed by Trulli for the entire year

Trulli is a class act over 1 lap.


As for the 2006 - 2008 against Rubens, the cars/tyres just suited each driver at particular times. Like JPM and Ralph at Williams. Even over 3 seasons if you ask me.

thegoth

Cant disagree with anything you said there, but the reason he won 6 races was because he had the best car for those races. I actually think that Lewis was much more impressive all throughout the year in the McLaren.

"
Did ok against Ralf Schmucaher, but lived for several years by the fact he out qualified Ralf at spa. Over the entire year, Ralf had his number
Like you said, rookie year.

Fisi was not too bad back then.


Out qualifed by Trulli for the entire year
Trulli is a class act over 1 lap. "

Everything you said is correct, but do you think that Alonso, Lewis, Kimi, Vettel, Webber, Rosberg, and Kubica would have done any better ? I do

I would be interested to see where people but button in their list of drivers on the current grid as I did.

Frank Bullitt

I would agree quite a bit with the OP on this one. From thinking about it he took full advantage that the car had at the start of the season with the double diffusor and being able to get the car right (lets not forget he was able to work off Ruben's set-up as well,and he is known for setting a car up very well).

Once Rubens could get the car his way he was right with him,and by then all the other teams were catching up with the diffusor as well so this played to his advantage hugely.

In terms of where he is on the grid with regards to talent i would put him top 6-8 maybe, he is no Alonso,Hamilton or Raikkonen, these all have superior strengths over him on the track IMO. He is adamant that he isn't a "one hit wonder", but i think next year will show weather he has he pedigree to keep up with the drivers i mentioned above.

The way i see it, he would never have been a WC if the regulations weren't turned on their head, so he should be thanking the FIA as well as Ross Brawn.

Kersh

he took full advantage that the car had at the start of the season

And Rubens didnt.

Thus JB deserves his championship. I agree Lewis from The 5th race on was more impressive, but when JB struggled, the other clowns couldnt get it together.

My current talent list is this -

Lewis/Alonso
Vettel
Kimi
Sutil
Kubica/Rosberg
Button

The rest dont rate..

thegoth

Yes. Thats my point. I dont think that a driver who would rank only in most peoples top 6 or 8 can be considered a worthy world champion. In my opinion he is a lucky world champion, in the same way Hill was.

thegoth

Kersh, you ranked Button 8th, yet you think he is a deserving world champion.

Button and Rubens had the best car. Button was better than Rubens, over the season, but you can only compare him to Rubens. I think other drivers drove much better this year considering the cars at their disposal. Alonso, Rosberg and Lewis spring to mind immeditely as drivers I think drove better than Jensen this year, but did not get the same results as their cars were not as good as Brawn

EvilMonkey

Dose Button deserve to be WDC? Yes
Is he the best driver? No

The last 20 pages of the Brazil thread covers this.

Kersh

Kersh, you ranked Button 8th, yet you think he is a deserving world champion.

All the sweeter. Its like winning races in a slower car than everyone else. It must be magic for JB to know he but such highly rateed drivers.

In the end of the day, he won 6 races, for whatever reason. If every race was wet, someone else would have won it, and they would have deserved it too. If all the tracks had bumps and high kerbs and it suited Glock and he won 6 races, he would have deserved it too.

Fact is, by your logic, Kimi didnt deserve the 2007 title, cos he beat Lewis and Alonso, who are 1 and 2 on your list?

but did not get the same results as their cars were not as good as Brawn

Signing with the right team is also part of being champion. Picking the good cars. Button obviously knew the car would be good, so took a huge pay cut to stay in there.

SouperComputer

By your logic Goth, there arent a lot of "deserving" F1 champions about. Button won more races than anyone else in a very quick, Ross Brawn engineered car......

Sound familiar?

Find me one "unlucky but deserving" world champion and I'll eat my hat. Button's package outpeformed everyone elses this year, that makes him a champion.

thegoth

Emm. Would seem to be off topic in the Brazilian thread !!

I think that the best driver in a given year deserves to be world champion, Nnot the person who wins the most races or gets the most points. Sometimes this happens, sometimes it doesnt. This year I believe it didn't. Last year I believe it did.

Let me say again. I am happy for Jensen. I like him. He seems like a good guy. He won me €250 :-)

Kersh

And he won €60 for me, over 2 bets.

frostie500

thegoth wrote: »

Yes. Thats my point. I dont think that a driver who would rank only in most peoples top 6 or 8 can be considered a worthy world champion. In my opinion he is a lucky world champion, in the same way Hill was.

I think Button deserved to win the championship this year, but mostly because no body got their act together for the entire season.

The Brawn was obviously the dominant car for the first half of the season and Button did what was needed at that point. Vettel was very impressive this year at times but made a few mistakes (Austrailia, Monaco) and had numerous engine issues and was outraced by Webber up until the European GP so his season a bit flawed in my view.

Webber you could say much the same about-he has been resoundly beaten by Vettel in qualifying but has raced well for the most part. Rubbens was pretty poor for the first half of the season and couldn't match Button, Spain being the most obvious example where he was beaten in a race that he should have won and his race craft and judgment was poor at times as well.

Hamilton didn't have a car for the first half of the season and was nowhere as a result, Raikkonen was similarly hamstrung and didn't come alive until after Massa's accident when he was back as a number one driver and able to dominate and mould the team around him again.

As a result it was a bit of a perfect storm for any of these drivers to get a championship but for one reason or another everyone made a mess of one stage of the season and was taken out of contention, Button was the only one who managed to have a series of races good enough to win the championship

I wouldn't rate Button particularly high in terms of the drivers on the grid but this year he was the most complete driver who had the best body of work of all the contenders. If I had to rank the grid I'd have it as tiered sections as opposed to flat out 1,2,3 just because the order of some are very close

I'd have Button as a tier two driver along with most of the grid:

Tier one would be world class drivers who would be good in almost any era: Alsono, Hamilton and Kimi
Tier two would be drivers that aren't at the top level yet:
a) Vettel, Kubica
b) Webber, Button, Barrichello, Glock, Massa, Rosberg

I've got the subsections in tier two beacuse I think Vettel and Kubica have shown more overall then the drivers below them but aren't yet at the level of the top drivers

thegoth

SouperComputer wrote: »

By your logic Goth, there arent a lot of "deserving" F1 champions about. Button won more races than anyone else in a very quick, Ross Brawn engineered car......

Sound familiar?

Find me one "unlucky but deserving" world champion and I'll eat my hat. Button's package outpeformed everyone elses this year, that makes him a champion.

I know. Schmuacher won from 2000-2004 in the best car, but he also won in 94-95 in not the best car. Most people believe that no one at the grid during his world championship winning years were as good as him

You say "Button's package outpeformed everyone elses this year, that makes him a champion". Thats my point. Because of his car's performance advantage, he won the world championship not in spite of it, like Suchmacher or some other drivers. I think world champions need to win in a car that is not the best, weather its a championship or even a few races. Alonso, Schmucaher, Lewis, Senna, have all done this. Button has proven he can win in the best car. I want to see him drag a result out of a bad car

EvilMonkey

Rubbish the title is given to the person who scores the most points over the season. Its not a talent show.
I agree Button is lucky he was in the right car at the tight time. That dose not make him a worthy winner.

thegoth

b) Webber, Button, Barrichello, Glock, Massa, Rosberg on the same level ! ?

I would have Webber and Rosberg before Button, Rubens, Glock, or Massa every single time

SouperComputer

thegoth wrote: »

I think that the best driver in a given year deserves to be world champion, Nnot the person who wins the most races or gets the most points. Sometimes this happens, sometimes it doesnt. This year I believe it didn't. Last year I believe it did.

Thein lies the problem. The result of this (if one could ever actually be decided) would be subjective, not objective. Depending on your criteria, you could argue that Button was in fact the best driver (this year). He joined the team with the best car and used it to the best of his ability. As a result, he beat everone else to the championship. He did what every champion driver has done in the past, put himself in the best position possible to win.

Maybe schumacher wasn't deserving in '94 afterall he didnt have to compete head-to-head with Senna for the championship Maybe Senna should have won in '93 becuase his drive at donnington was so good?

Its a slippery slope when you stop getting objective about these things.

thegoth

All I am saying is that in my opinion worthy winners are the best. Full stop. Everyone here seems to agree that Jensen was not the best or even close.

Jensen took advantage of a great car. Happy to see a world champion with a good personality. Wish him all the best. Want to see him against Rosberg next year. A few years ago I never thought I would be cheering Jensen Button

GavRedKing

All factors considered, he was the best driver, had a flying start, as did Brawn, the rrst of the field were to slow to catch him and by that stage it was his to throw away, I think he deserved.

Will he defned it?? For my money no
Will he ever win it again??? I think not, no doubt he is in the top 6 drivers at the moment but I dont see him having the same season as he did this year.

Next years championship will be interesting.

thegoth

Could people post their top drivers list with Button in it. I have him 8th. My list is on first page.

EvilMonkey

That's your opinion
Another opinion could be drivers who aren't the best and therefore have to work harder to win are more deserving

My opinion is no one deserves to be world champion. It is something that is earned by scoring the most points over a season.

thegoth

I am changing my mind here. Considering he had the best car. He played the cards he was dealt. Yes, he is a deserving world champion. Not the best driver, but a deserving world champion.

See, I dont start threads here to ram my opinion down peoples throat. I do listen to others, keep and open mind, and alter my views if need to, unlike someone here who has not posted on this thread yet !!

SouperComputer

thegoth wrote: »

I know. Schmuacher won from 2000-2004 in the best car, but he also won in 94-95 in not the best car. [snip]...............I want to see him drag a result out of a bad car

Theres a big difference between a bad car and the 94 & 95 Bennetons though!
Anyway, for sure next year it will be interesting to see what kind of momentum Button carries with him.

thegoth

EvilMonkey wrote: »

That's your opinion
Another opinion could be drivers who aren't the best and therefore have to work harder to win are more deserving

Or another opinion would be drivers who aren't the best and therefore have to have a car thats several tenths of a second faster than the rest to win.

Look at Sato. He was not as good as most drivers. When he tried harder, he crashed. Most drivers are always on their own personal limits

frostie500

thegoth wrote: »

b) Webber, Button, Barrichello, Glock, Massa, Rosberg on the same level ! ?

I would have Webber and Rosberg before Button, Rubens, Glock, or Massa every single time

Like I said in the origianal post:

frostie500 wrote: »

If I had to rank the grid I'd have it as tiered sections as opposed to flat out 1,2,3 just because the order of some are very close

I didn't order the drivers in a 1,2,3 fashion because I think that there isn't too much between some drivers. I think that right now with the body of work from all these drivers that there isn't a lot too choose between them

thegoth

SouperComputer wrote: »

Theres a big difference between a bad car and the 94 & 95 Bennetons though!

I think that Jos Verstappen and Johnny Herbert may disagree with you.

Check out the real reason why the these cars were fast. Had something to do with a certain MS. Check out the telementary here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4

MS car was fast as he carried extra speed through corners compared to teammates

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

I am changing my mind here. Considering he had the best car. He played the cards he was dealt. Yes, he is a deserving world champion. Not the best driver, but a deserving world champion.

See, I dont start threads here to ram my opinion down peoples throat. I do listen to others, keep and open mind, and alter my views if need to, unlike someone here who has not posted on this thread yet !!

I'm glad to hear you say that because some people have been very hard on Button on this forum. I don't think anyone would claim he is the best driver in F1 but if you get the most points, that makes you a deserved world champion in any season.

In my opinion, Button is a more credible champion that Raikkonen was the year he won it. He was incredibly lucky to win it when he did but he was also very unlucky not to win it in the past so these things have a habit of evening themselves out I suppose.

thegoth wrote: »

See, I dont start threads here to ram my opinion down peoples throat. I do listen to others, keep and open mind, and alter my views if need to, unlike someone here who has not posted on this thread yet !!

Now who would you be talking about here I wonder....?

Kersh

Check out the real reason why the these cars were fast

Lets really not go there with the 94 Benneton, and its illegal traction control, thanks to the Symonds/Briatore school of cheating. And MS using it.

Please just dont open that can.

WacoKid

thegoth wrote: »

Yes. Thats my point. I dont think that a driver who would rank only in most peoples top 6 or 8 can be considered a worthy world champion. In my opinion he is a lucky world champion, in the same way Hill was.

IIRC Hill qualified on the front row for every race the year he won the title. Jenson took advantage of the double diffuser debate but once they caught up he was nowhere.

Give Alonso a good car and he is near invincible. Him and Lewis will be great TV for next year.

frostie500

Kersh wrote: »

Lets really not go there with the 94 Benneton, and its illegal traction control, thanks to the Symonds/Briatore school of cheating. And MS using it.

Please just dont open that can.

oh go on......open it!

thegoth

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

In my opinion, Button is a more credible champion that Raikkonen was the year he won it. He was incredibly lucky to win it when he did but he was also very unlucky not to win it in the past so these things have a habit of evening themselves out I suppose.

LOL. Was going to mention something about Kimi being luck in 2007, but decided I could do without the hastle of defending myself !!

Just a thought. Luck does play an important role in motorsport and should be considered when analysing drivers. Consider this

If Lewis had been a bit luckier in 2007, he would now be a 2 time world champion. Equally, if he had been a bit less lucky last year, and by that I mean that if the rain started 10 seconds later, he would have no world titles to his name !!!

thegoth

Kersh wrote: »

Lets really not go there with the 94 Benneton, and its illegal traction control, thanks to the Symonds/Briatore school of cheating. And MS using it.

Please just dont open that can.

Please. Show me the enedience. If traction control was being used, it would have been recorded on the telementary which Jos Verstrappen, Johnny Herbert, or any number of engineers would have known about.

Point 1 - Unlike the singapore thing, many people in the team would have known if TC was being used. Tyre guys, engine guys, race engineers, other team drivers, yet nonen have ever said this. After 15 years, I'm sure one would have said something

Point 2 - If traction control was being used, you would see it on the telemantary or at least pointers to its use would be

Unless someone has evedence, then no TC was used on the 94 Benneton

frostie500

thegoth wrote: »

Please. Show me the enedience. If traction control was being used, it would have been recorded on the telementary which Jos Verstrappen, Johnny Herbert, or any number of engineers would have known about.

Point 1 - Unlike the singapore thing, many people in the team would have known if TC was being used. Tyre guys, engine guys, race engineers, other team drivers, yet nonen have ever said this. After 15 years, I'm sure one would have said something

Point 2 - If traction control was being used, you would see it on the telemantary or at least pointers to its use would be

Unless someone has evedence, then no TC was used on the 94 Benneton

But the fuel filter alegations were true and this was of great benefit at pit stops
And the worn plank in Belgium

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

Unless someone has evedence, then no TC was used on the 94 Benneton

You are quite right. There is no evidence that TC was used but Launch Control might have been:

During the 1994 season, some rival teams claimed Benetton had found a way to violate the FIA-imposed ban on electronic aids, including Traction Control and Launch Control. On investigation, the FIA discovered "start sequence" (launch control) software in the Benetton B194 cars, and a variety of illegal software in rival teams' cars as well. FIA had no evidence the software was ever used, so teams found with the software received little to no punishment. No traction control software was found to be in the Benetton cars, however. Flavio Briatore, Benetton's chief in 1994, said in 2001 that "Our only mistake was that at the time we were too young and people were suspicious".[1]

During the 1994 season Benetton removed a fuel filter from the refueling rig used during pit stops. This may have resulted in a fire that took place during Jos Verstappen's first pitstop at Hockenheim.

SouperComputer

thegoth wrote: »

I think that Jos Verstappen and Johnny Herbert may disagree with you.

Check out the real reason why the these cars were fast. Had something to do with a certain MS. Check out the telementary here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk2p2nRK-p4

MS car was fast as he carried extra speed through corners compared to teammates

Sorry, it takes more than a single, anecdotal piece of telemetry, taken under uncertain conditions and variables to convince me that this is the reason why a car is quicker. Telemetry only displays the inputs over a timeline, it gives no indication as to the circumstances of those inputs. Ie. by itself, telemetary is useless.

EvilMonkey

You make your own luck
If Kimi wasn't in a position to take advantage of Hamilton's misfortunes he wouldn't have won. I don't think Hamilton's mistakes in 07 could be called unlucky they were mistakes.
If Hamilton wasn't in a position that 5th place was all he needed then the rain wouldn't have really made a difference and wouldn't be called lucky.

I don't think any driver is particularly lucky or anything and if i was looking an hiring a driver i wouldn't be checking to see if they were lucky or not.

thegoth

frostie500 wrote: »

But the fuel filter alegations were true and this was of great benefit at pit stops
And the worn plank in Belgium

True. The team did cheat with the fuel filter, but I think they always said the plank was caused by damage over a kerb. Other teams have also cheated. Look at honda using fuel as ballast at the start of 06. McLaren stealing designs, as have Williams and I THINK Lotus in the past. Look at Renault last year. McLaren again this year with misleading the stewards in Australia. Cheating happens :-(
I'd say every team has done it. Well according to Irvine they have anyway

frostie500

thegoth wrote: »

True. The team did cheat with the fuel filter, but I think they always said the plank was caused by damage over a kerb. Other teams have also cheated. Look at honda using fuel as ballast at the start of 06. McLaren stealing designs, as have Williams and I THINK Lotus in the past. Look at Renault last year. McLaren again this year with misleading the stewards in Australia. Cheating happens :-(
I'd say every team has done it. Well according to Irvine they have anyway

I don't doubt that teams cheat its pretty clear in racing that it happens. I don't really buy the kerb damage-I've never seen another team DQ'ed for the plank after a spin. Bear in mind it was 25% below regulation so even if it was damage from the spin it must have started a below it.

Firewalkwithme

EvilMonkey wrote: »

You make your own luck
If Kimi wasn't in a position to take advantage of Hamilton's misfortunes he wouldn't have won. I don't think Hamilton's mistakes in 07 could be called unlucky they were mistakes.
If Hamilton wasn't in a position that 5th place was all he needed then the rain wouldn't have really made a difference and wouldn't be called lucky.

I don't think any driver is particularly lucky or anything and if i was looking an hiring a driver i wouldn't be checking to see if they were lucky or not.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "lucky" because I personally don't believe in luck.

"Fortunate" might be a more appropriate word to describe how I feel about Raikkonens title win considering that he needed certain events to occur that were outside of his control before he could become champion.

kierank01

thegoth wrote: »

Emm. Would seem to be off topic in the Brazilian thread !!

I think that the best driver in a given year deserves to be world champion, Nnot the person who wins the most races or gets the most points. Sometimes this happens, sometimes it doesnt. This year I believe it didn't. Last year I believe it did.

Let me say again. I am happy for Jensen. I like him. He seems like a good guy. He won me €250 :-)

If Button had the poor results at the start of the season, and for whatever reason, won six races at the end of the season, and won the championship with a race to spare would you be saying 'wow he did a great job at the end of the season, he really deserves the title'?

WacoKid

kierank01 wrote: »

If Button had the poor results at the start of the season, and for whatever reason, won six races at the end of the season, and won the championship with a race to spare would you be saying 'wow he did a great job at the end of the season, he really deserves the title'?

The other teams misinterpreted the rules at the start of the season and Brawn took advantage of it. Fair play to them but it means he won with a car that was known to be a lot better. If he won the 6 races early on with the same car then there would be no doubts.

amacachi

Why bother with a championship at all if that's not how the title is decided? Have a time trial in the same car with no adjustments once a year, done and dusted.

Button had the best car for most of the season, how often does someone win the title without the best car? He set it up better than Rubens could. Rubens choked and cracked a bit and even after his first win he couldn't do enough to get back in full contention.

Button fully deserves the title, he'd've gotten it a while back but for his loyalty.

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You have the setup the wrong way around, Rubens helped Jensen setup up his car and after a while he stopped. Can you guess when he stopped giving him setup info?

So Jenson was able to use Rubens' set-up better than Rubens could? Even better.

am i bovvered

Jenson definitetly does deserve the title, and so does brawn, they got the most points, simple as that. I think it will be his only one, although they do say he is very easy on tyres which could be a major factor next year. Oh... I forgot he isn't even confirmed to have a drive next year, same as this time last year

IM0

IBTL

Firewalkwithme

me@ucd wrote: »

IBTL

What makes you think this thread will be locked?

I certainly don't see anything wrong with it.

IM0

am i bovvered wrote: »

Oh... I forgot he isn't even confirmed to have a drive next year, same as this time last year

Id say that was more his choice than anything. Why would a driver comit to a contract of X before winning the title, when he can get X+5 after he wins it!
basic business skills of negotiation

I know..you were probably saying it tongue in cheek..but still.

IM0

I cant see how it will ever come to a natural end :pac:

EvilMonkey

am i bovvered wrote: »

Jenson definitetly does deserve the title, and so does brawn, they got the most points, simple as that. I think it will be his only one, although they do say he is very easy on tyres which could be a major factor next year. Oh... I forgot he isn't even confirmed to have a drive next year, same as this time last year

This time last year he had a contract with Honda

amacachi

Ficus wrote: »

I think its you who doesnt understand the way basic business skills work.
Do you honestly think jenson is going to increase his salary 5 fold on the back of his world championship, not a chance in hell!!!
He is currently on £3.15million plus performance bonus so you think he is will get £15million??

He said +5, not x5, so I'd say he could be close enough.

Firewalkwithme

me@ucd wrote: »

I cant see how it will ever come to a natural end :pac:

It's really quite simple - you just need to be open to other peoples points of view and respectful of others achievements. Take thegoth for example, when this thread started he thought Button didn't deserve the title but revised his opinion later after some thought.

Nobody is saying that Button is the best driver, just that he deserved to win the title.

In my opinion, anyone who goes out and risks their health and potentially their life on the way to winning a world title in F1 deserves that title whether I personally like them or not. To suggest otherwise is highly disrespectful and displays either a severe lack of knowledge of the sport or some sort of pigheaded dislike for an individual with no good reason.