The Federation of Expellees

MrMicra

It is certainly a tricky one realcam the issue is very complex.

realcam wrote: »

'Sudeten' were German speaking folks within the territory of the Czech Republic before WWII. Going back many hundreds of years actually. When Germany lost WWII the Czech government decided that the 'German Evil' includes those folks and they had to leave. Ethnic cleansing if you like and it is assumed these days that about 15-20k lost their lives in the process.

In the period immediately before the war there was a state of quasi insurrection in the Sudetenland. There were policemen killed, electricity stations blown up. The Czechoslovak government responded aggressively (by the standards of today). When the vote on incorporation of the Sudetenland into Germany was held the proportion in favour of incorporation with Germany was 97%.
It is not surprising given the nature of the second world war that the Sudetenlanders should have been pushed out. It is regrettable but it was inevitable.

realcam wrote: »

Any attempts of their heirs to reclaim their ancestors property is being viewed by the Czechs as reactionary / revanchism.

Erika Steinbach the head of the federation of expellees is a revanchanist that isn't to say that all supporters of the expellees are revanchanists but
in the Federal Republic those who supported the expellees were reactionaries. Of course very few of those reactionaries were revanchanists; however to non Germans ( and most Germans) any hint of German revanchanism is completely unacceptable.

The groups in the 1950s were careful not to be revanchanist and were irrelevant for that reason. it was only by appealling to the hard right that the expellees gained political traction.
Strauss for example was a prominent supporter in the '80s and he was well over the line so far as I am concerned.
The issue is more normal in Germany now precisely because the base of support has been broadened.
This has happened for three main reaons:
because of unification which has led to an increase in the number of people who were themselves affected or whose parents were affected.

the desire of that generation of Germans (now in their late 60s and 70s) to have their suffering recognised- these people were children during the war and suffered for crimes that they did not commit. This is an interesting cultural development in early 21st century Germany.

the work of Peter Glotzl who brought the SPD on side and got them to support the Federation for Expellees (he was a child refugee himself).

As well as the broadening of support mentioned above the CDU has been very (overly) supportive of the Expellees movement for the past few years.
This might be because Merkel is herself sympathetic to them and wants to help them and also a recognition that by keeping them in the CDU the expellees movement is kept under control.

Why they haven't marginalised Steinbach I don't know the woman is extremely dangerous.

realcam wrote: »

Same happened to large number of German people who lived in Prussia / East-Prussia before WWII which is now deemed Polish / Russian. My ancestors lived in East Prussia themselves and fled from the Red Army leaving everything behind.

I recognise that there are very few Germans now alive who were responsible for crimes in the second world war. You'd have to be about a man of 85 now to be a combatant and even then you'd be a junior officer or an ordinary soldier.
Because of this the German people are now expressing their own sense that they too were victims. This is the first time that the Germans can honestly say 'weniger haben gewusst, keiner hat gewusst'.

However the fact that the people who committed historical crimes are dead doesn't mean they didn't take place.

Your own families case realcam shows why this is such a dangerous dangerous dangerous issue. Ostpreussen is now Kaliningrad. Are we supposed to fight the Russians for it?

realcam wrote: »

Germany itself is tiptoeing around this issue and would rather let this problem go away (as it does because of age obviously) as they don't want to upset Poland or the Czech Republic.

Tiptoeing like Wehrmacht tiptoeing into Poland in 1939! The German government is funding the expellees movement and they are allowing a woman who EXPLICITLY doesn't recognise the Oder Neisse line to run that movement!

However:
The ECHR has rejected the right of German expellees to seek compensation.
The movement will run out of steam as people die.

I hope that it is a part of a temporary and important phenomenon the children and grandchildren of the current survivors of the second world war want their parents and grandparents suffering recognised and as they die off the steam will come out of the issue.

On the other hand it may be part of a process of German revanchanism and reinvigoration of German nationalism.

Boskowski

MrMicra wrote: »

In the period immediately before the war there was a state of quasi insurrection in the Sudetenland. There were policemen killed, electricity stations blown up. The Czechoslovak government responded aggressively (by the standards of today). When the vote on incorporation of the Sudetenland into Germany was held the proportion in favour of incorporation with Germany was 97%.

I understand this insurrection was sort of 'staged' by Nazi-Germany and just another prequel to WWII.

MrMicra wrote: »

It is not surprising given the nature of the second world war that the Sudetenlanders should have been pushed out. It is regrettable but it was inevitable.

Not so sure about this. After all the Sudeten go back centuries and looking at the nature of the German speaking states and how late in history they actually formed themselves into modern nation states I find it understandable what happened but I fail to see the legitimacy of it.

MrMicra wrote: »

Erika Steinbach the head of the federation of expellees is a revanchanist that isn't to say that all supporters of the expellees are revanchanists but in the Federal Republic those who supported the expellees were reactionaries. Of course very few of those reactionaries were revanchanists; however to non Germans ( and most Germans) any hint of German revanchanism is completely unacceptable.

Is it? Maybe so. I agree when your talking about getting Ostpreussen or other actual territories 'back'. Not so sure when it comes to the legitimacy of Sudeten claims.

MrMicra wrote: »

Why they haven't marginalised Steinbach I don't know the woman is extremely dangerous.

Is she? I don't know a whole lot about her but I didn't think she was actually dangerous.

MrMicra wrote: »

Your own families case realcam shows why this is such a dangerous dangerous dangerous issue. Ostpreussen is now Kaliningrad. Are we supposed to fight the Russians for it?

No I have no interest in that place. You're fine... :-)

MrMicra wrote: »

Tiptoeing like Wehrmacht tiptoeing into Poland in 1939!

Hey, there's no need for that.

MrMicra wrote: »

The German government is funding the expellees movement and they are allowing a woman who EXPLICITLY doesn't recognise the Oder Neisse line to run that movement!

I certainly would call the line of the German government 'tiptoeing'. You must understand that these people genuinely suffered and have a legitimate line of argument if you were a German yourself or look at it from a German domestic point of view.
What is the German government supposed to do with them? Alienate them? Tell them to shut up and go away? So what they do is they 'embrace' them to contain them and hold them in check and pat them on their backs a little.
Also the German government can either fund it or not but I don't think it would be right to intervene into the process of how that group elects their representatives.
That's how I would analyze it.

MrMicra wrote: »

On the other hand it may be part of a process of German revanchanism and reinvigoration of German nationalism.

I doubt it very much to be honest.

There is a reinvigoration of German nationalism in terms of a liberation if you like. You must understand generations of Germans (like my own generation e.g.) had it practically hammered into them that being German is a bad thing. Something you'd nearly want to be ashamed of.
Germans come back from that to a more natural state. It expresses itself by not believing any longer you're a raving nationalist half-nazi when you hang your flag out the window during the football world cup. Thats what its been like for decades, seriously. You probably have to be German to understand this. In any case it doesn't mean we want Poland back.

I think Germany defines itself much more than any other country by European Integration. A lot of Germans would see themselves as Europeans as much as they see themselves as Germans.

I think the most reserved relationship we still have is with Great Britain actually. And it seems mutual. With our neighbours and old enemies we get on comparably great I think.

prinz

realcam wrote: »

Not so sure when it comes to the legitimacy of Sudeten claims...

I wonder would you consider claims from Franco-Rheinlanders to be legitimate too? My OH's family are French in origin, her grandparents even had French passports and speak French fluently to this day. They recall a time when Germany 'reasserted' herself over areas west of the Rhine and many 'ethnic' French were frozen out and forced to migrate to France proper. Do you think they'll get their claims entertained? Both sides of my OH's family had to change their names, to 'germanise' them in order to stay and prosper in the region. I have talked with them about this, they say businesses were boycotted, and people who were neighbours for generations suddenly became the enemy etc. So much so that many were forced out being unable to sell property etc.

realcam wrote: »

It expresses itself by not believing any longer you're a raving nationalist half-nazi when you hang your flag out the window during the football world cup. Thats what its been like for decades, seriously. You probably have to be German to understand this. In any case it doesn't mean we want Poland back..

+1 on this. It's great to see the pride of Germany being reclaimed from the criminals of the past. I think many Irish people have a glimpse of this, personally as a proud and patriotic Irishman myself this often gets confused with support for various terrorist organisations. Irish pride and nationalism has been tainted for years. Ironically it's something that I encounter in Germany a lot..'oh you're Irish, you must hate the English and love the IRA...etc...' No. No I don't.

I think the Irish in particular should understand the problems around the Sudeten, and Prussian Germans etc. We only have to look at Northern Ireland to see the problems that arise when a significant portion of the population of another area/country look to yours for protection/as home or whatever.

MrMicra

First of all let me say that I acknowledge that realcam is engaging in a discussion of the issue and that where words like revanchanist are used that they will not be regarded as referring to realcam or to any poster.

Is there anyway that the subject of the discussion could be changed because it looks a bit like a private conversation or an attack on one other boardser and it isn't.

MrMicra wrote: »

In the period immediately before the war there was a state of quasi insurrection in the Sudetenland.

realcam wrote: »

I understand this insurrection was sort of 'staged' by Nazi-Germany and just another prequel to WWII.

That's correct but there was certainly Sudetendeutsch participation.

MrMicra wrote: »

It is not surprising given the nature of the second world war that the Sudetenlanders should have been pushed out. It is regrettable but it was inevitable.

realcam wrote: »

Not so sure about this. After all the Sudeten go back centuries and looking at the nature of the German speaking states and how late in history they actually formed themselves into modern nation states I find it understandable what happened but I fail to see the legitimacy of it.

Many things happened in that period that were not legitimate. There was a large German speaking population in the Sudetenland for a long time.
Generally it is accepted that they formed part of the Ostsiedlung (the eastern migration of Germans in the early middle ages). I myself wonder if they might not have been Germanised Slavs (and sometimes if the Czechs in particular are not Slavicised Germans). I know that is not important to the discussion at hand by the way.
The Sudetendeutsche were a (comparatively) privileged group under the Austrian empire and a (comparatively) disadvantaged group under the new Czecho-Slovak state (just look at the name!). However privilege and disadvantage in this period should not be exaggerated. There were German schools funded by the CzechoSlovak state, government documents were available in German, German language theatres were subsidised etc. On the other hand the Czech state confiscated 20% of everyones liquid wealth in money (in 1919 according to Wikipedia in English) German language theatres had to put on one show a week in Czech etc.

It doesn't surprise me that the postwar Czech government regarded the Sudetendeutsche as a people (or national minority) that had been fairly treated but nevertheless had made unreasonable demands and whose accession to Germany had led to the invasion and occupation of all of Czechoslovakia. While it might be true that the Czechs were treated alot better than other Slavic peoples that isn't a great recommendation.

MrMicra wrote: »

Erika Steinbach the head of the federation of expellees is a revanchanist that isn't to say that all supporters of the expellees are revanchanists but
in the Federal Republic those who supported the expellees were reactionaries. Of course very few of those reactionaries were revanchanists; however to non Germans ( and most Germans) any hint of German revanchanism is completely unacceptable.
Why they haven't marginalised Steinbach I don't know the woman is extremely dangerous.

realcam wrote: »

Is she? I don't know a whole lot about her but I didn't think she was actually dangerous.

Erika Steinbach isn't a trained assassin and she isn't actively plotting a war of reconquest of Silesia but nevertheless I believe that she is quite dangerous.
She is highly popular and effective and in my opinion she has pulled the CDU into a position where far from:

realcam wrote: »

they 'embrace' them to contain them and hold them in check and pat them on their backs a little.

I think that they are poking at old wounds.

realcam wrote: »

Also the German government can either fund it or not but I don't think it would be right to intervene into the process of how that group elects their representatives.

But Mrs Steinbach is like a red rag to a bull; she didn't want the Oder Neisse line recognised as Germany's eastern boundary and she was only born in Poland because her father was in the German army! I accept that Polish politicians may hype this issue too but I think that she is particularly problematic in this specific respect; there are other aspects of her work where she is great.
Anyway the government did interfere. Thank goodness. But the expellees have left the position she was to fill open.

realcam wrote: »

Hey, there's no need for that.

You are absolutely right I apologise.

realcam wrote: »

I certainly would call the line of the German government 'tiptoeing'. You must understand that these people genuinely suffered and have a legitimate line of argument if you were a German yourself or look at it from a German domestic point of view.

I understand that they suffered but they are not the only people who suffered. I am acknowledge that the Germans suffered in the war but I think that expellees are problematic as a proxy for that suffering.

realcam wrote: »

What is the German government supposed to do with them? Alienate them? Tell them to shut up and go away?

Yes tell them to shut up and go away. By catering to them the CDU is keeping the issue alive, creating tension, strengthening old suspicions and deepening existing divisions.

realcam wrote: »

There is a reinvigoration of German nationalism in terms of a liberation if you like. You must understand generations of Germans (like my own generation e.g.) had it practically hammered into them that being German is a bad thing. Something you'd nearly want to be ashamed of.
Germans come back from that to a more natural state. It expresses itself by not believing any longer you're a raving nationalist half-nazi when you hang your flag out the window during the football world cup. Thats what its been like for decades, seriously. You probably have to be German to understand this. In any case it doesn't mean we want Poland back.

I don't accept that the Germans ever stopped being patriotic.
One always met people who said that they weren't at all proud to be German but they were a minority though they could be very vociferous and they created a kind of political correctness 'gone mad' where Deutsch und Stoltz meant Nazi (it doesn't).

I know that people sometimes felt that they 'weren't allowed' to be patriotic but most people actually were.

Say the colors of the German flag in German
did you say :


Schwarz, Rot und Gold
or
Schwarz, Rot und Gelb

In any event I accept that there is a mood in Germany that wants their own suffering acknowledged. I have no problem with that at all and as I say I believe that it is because the generation of survivors now alive is dominated by the innocent.

prinz wrote: »

It's great to see the pride of Germany being reclaimed from the criminals of the past.
I think the Irish in particular should understand the problems around the Sudeten, and Prussian Germans etc. We only have to look at Northern Ireland to see the problems that arise when a significant portion of the population of another area/country look to yours for protection/as home or whatever.

I agree with both points but the expellees aren't in another country they are in Germany they were in another country 65 years ago. Or never in the case of some of them.

My concern is not so much with the issue as with the fact that it has the potential to be a recurrent problem in relations between European states.
It isn't just the German government that is at fault but extremists like Klaus and the Polish twins can use the issue to stoke up anti German feelings in their own countries.

Boskowski

MrMicra wrote: »

Schwarz, Rot, Gold

Not much time right now, for the moment just this one.

'Schwarz, Rot, Gold' it is. No yellow in there :-)

oscarBravo

MrMicra wrote: »

Is there anyway that the subject of the discussion could be changed because it looks a bit like a private conversation or an attack on one other boardser and it isn't.

Done.

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

They recall a time when Germany 'reasserted' herself over areas west of the Rhine and many 'ethnic' French were frozen out and forced to migrate to France proper.

I don't know I believe Germany asserted themselves over most of France tbh and that was just war and different from the ambiguities around the border regions. There was always regions in the Rheinland that weren't entirely French or German from a population point of view. After all Germany and France were one 'country' for almost 1000 years. Even today Saarland, Baden, the German regions around Strasbourg have a strong French influence, many Germans work across the border. I'm sure that goes both ways.
I think the issue has been properly resolved by polling these regions after the war. AFAIK Elsass-Lothringen - as we call it - elected to remain in France while Saarland remained in Germany and that should be it.

prinz wrote: »

+1 on this. It's great to see the pride of Germany being reclaimed from the criminals of the past. I think many Irish people have a glimpse of this, personally as a proud and patriotic Irishman myself this often gets confused with support for various terrorist organisations. Irish pride and nationalism has been tainted for years. Ironically it's something that I encounter in Germany a lot..'oh you're Irish, you must hate the English and love the IRA...etc...' No. No I don't.

Well, although I don't want to steel your wind and I feel you are very much entitled to be a proud Irishman, I for myself don't get much out of national pride. National pride has been abused for the wrong agendas too much in my experience and while I grant you that national pride can be a healthy and fine thing and I reckon you yourself belong into that category - generally speaking I'd view someone who is raising the flag in front of me with a raised eyebrow. There is a quote and while I know it doesn't do people like you any justice I still like it very much: 'National pride is mostly for people who have nothing else to be proud of....'

But maybe it's just that I can't help the anti-national brainwashing I had to endure through my entire education years. My national pride stretches as far as supporting the Nationalmannschaft (come on Germany, kick those English arses...:D) and taking some pride for ourselves being viewed as good thorough engineers and academics/thinkers.

prinz wrote: »

I think the Irish in particular should understand the problems around the Sudeten, and Prussian Germans etc. We only have to look at Northern Ireland to see the problems that arise when a significant portion of the population of another area/country look to yours for protection/as home or whatever.

Ye, I don't think with the Sudeten it was quite like that. Germany as a nation state has a funny history.
I mean we had almost a thousand years of the 'Holy Roman Empire of the Franco/German Nations' followed by a loose conglomerate of little Kingdoms and Dukedoms and independent cities and whatnots loosely connected by culture and language. When the German Nation states as we know them today formed themselves a lot of German speaking regions were left out for various reasons. Geographical reasons, political reasons, whatever. To this day there is small and also large pockets of German culture in places like Romania, Russia, Ukraine. It was never going to be clearcut. Even today there is a small region in the east of Germany where non-German-speaking folks live - I just can't think of their names right now.

Anyway, I think the 'Sudeten-issue' was mostly hyped and used by Nazi-Germany in order to promote their offensive and agressive foreign policies towards the Czech Republic and I didn't get the impression that these people were something like an oppressed minority before all that started. But I might be wrong there.

Like I said I don't have strong feelings towards all this and mostly I'm engaging in this discussion because I'm happy to discuss things German with non-German people and also because I feel here is something I can genuinely contribute to by presenting a German viewpoint and a German background/education on these things.


Edit: It came to me: That's them, the 'Sorben' in the 'Lausitz', a Slavik minority in Germany, no bother to them, they're happy out there in Germany, see, we're not that bad...:D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatia

prinz

realcam wrote: »

Even today Saarland, Baden, the German regions around Strasbourg have a strong French influence, many Germans work across the border. I'm sure that goes both ways.

..and it works. The mix is wonderful.

realcam wrote: »

I think the issue has been properly resolved by polling these regions after the war. AFAIK Elsass-Lothringen - as we call it - elected to remain in France while Saarland remained in Germany and that should be it..

But by the time polling came about presumably many of the people would already have migrated into both 'camps' so to speak. It's really interesting though, like talking to her grandparents on her mother's side, they went from the family Karembeu to Karrembauer I think it was.

realcam wrote: »

Well, although I don't want to steel your wind and I feel you are very much entitled to be a proud Irishman, I for myself don't get much out of national pride.
But maybe it's just that I can't help the anti-national brainwashing I had to endure through my entire education years. My national pride stretches as far as supporting the Nationalmannschaft (come on Germany, kick those English arses...:D) and taking some pride for ourselves being viewed as good thorough engineers and academics/thinkers.

Well you get that everywhere. I'm not a rabid nationalist or anything but a healthy dose of patriotism is ok. With the EU now sure we're all Europeans anyway. But on the other hand it is nice to have an interest and pride in your country's history etc without having it tainted by association to people who abuse it. Germany and the Germans are good at everything except music *cough* dieter bohlen/alexander klaws :eek: *cough* although I am a big fan of Reamonn, nice Irish-German aspect to them.

realcam wrote: »

To this day there is small and also large pockets of German culture in places like Romania, Russia, Ukraine. It was never going to be clearcut...

Absolutely, have heard of the Volga region Germans, and saw Herta Mueller winning the Nobel Prize not long ago as a Romanian-German.

realcam wrote: »

Anyway, I think the 'Sudeten-issue' was mostly hyped and used by Nazi-Germany in order to promote their offensive and agressive foreign policies towards the Czech Republic and I didn't get the impression that these people were something like an oppressed minority before all that started. But I might be wrong there. ...

Probably right. It was a useful excuse for expansion.

realcam wrote: »

Edit: It came to me: That's them, the 'Sorben' in the 'Lausitz', a Slavik minority in Germany, no bother to them, they're happy out there in Germany, see, we're not that bad...:D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatia

That's mad. Good to see it's being maintained.

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

Germany and the Germans are good at everything except music *cough* dieter bohlen/alexander klaws :eek: *cough*

The likes of Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Haendel, Mozart <gets slapped by an Austrian (feck-off, Salzburg was German when he was born there)> and countless others weren't too bad...

There's a few acceptable bands. The 'Toten Hosen' for instance or .... maybe die 'Toten Hosen' also.... <sh1T> we are crap at music.

MrMicra

realcam wrote: »

The likes of Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Haendel, Mozart <gets slapped by an Austrian (feck-off, Salzburg was German when he was born there)> and countless others weren't too bad...

There's a few acceptable bands. The 'Toten Hosen' for instance or .... maybe die 'Toten Hosen' also.... <sh1T> we are crap at music.

I always liked die Arzte but the biggest German band ever outside Germany are Skooter! (I have heard their 'music' and I have to agree with realcam.)

By the way I think that I was wrong about the German government 'letting' Mrs Steinbach run the main expellee organisation. I don't think that they are letting her do anything. She brought the issue to the centre of German politics, she built a cross party alliance to support certain symbolic measures (like the museum). She has done this at a time when Germans are eager to talk about their wartime suffering (their was a thing on the Sabine Christiansen show I saw last year) and when the CDU are sick of grand coalitions.

On the other hand you can see why the whole thing drives the Czechs and Poles demented and as for the Russian bolshe moi!

By the way that Sabine Christiansen programme is crap!

Martin 2

realcam wrote: »

The likes of Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Haendel, Mozart <gets slapped by an Austrian (feck-off, Salzburg was German when he was born there)> and countless others weren't too bad...

There's a few acceptable bands. The 'Toten Hosen' for instance or .... maybe die 'Toten Hosen' also.... <sh1T> we are crap at music.

An Anecdote about Die Toten Hosen
A few years ago I brought my car for its NCT. The Irish NCT is run by a Swiss company so there are many German/German-speaking testers. At the end of the test I was called to the customer desk where a German tester greeted me with "By order of the Lord", I had no idea what he was talking about until he explained that when they're testing the cars they often put on any CD they find in the car and in Ireland that would be U2 or Westlife etc however I happened to have a Die Toten Hosen - Im Auftrag des Herrn (By Order of the Lord) CD so he was delighted. I knew at that point my car had passed and ever since I make sure the Die Toten Hosen CD is in the car when it goes for its NCT... it might just help.

[FONT=&quot]Btw, fascinating discussion... mehr davon:-)[/FONT]

Hotblack Desiato

realcam wrote: »

The likes of Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Haendel, Mozart <gets slapped by an Austrian (feck-off, Salzburg was German when he was born there)> and countless others weren't too bad...

There's a few acceptable bands. The 'Toten Hosen' for instance or .... maybe die 'Toten Hosen' also.... <sh1T> we are crap at music.

On the credit side - Can. Kraftwerk. Neu! Einstürzende Neubauten. Rammstein.

On the debit side - Scorpions. The Kelly Family. The Hoff... :eek:

Boskowski

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/deutschland/Erika-Steinbach-Angela-Merkel-Bund-der-Vertriebenen;art122,2953594

Interesting article which explains why I called it 'tiptoeing' earlier...

MrMicra

Could be the mother of all catfights!
Erika Steinbach is such a force of nature. I disagree with her and I think she is dangerous but she is an amazing operator. She is either a total cynic or a complete nutter.

I wouldn't bet against her anyway!