Illegal pike introduction

J. Ramone

Just heard on radio news of illegal pike introduction to the Owenriff system. A serious blow to the future of Corrib!

ironbluedun

as thick as it is to introduce pike into this river i would not really describe it as a serious blow, there are plenty of pike in corrib. the fishery board will electro fish them out and i would imagine will relocate them to a more suitable water. that is of course if they are not present in the loughs further up the owenriff system if they are they will be harder to remove

J. Ramone

Is electrofishing effective in eliminating 100% of a fish species in a river system? I've never heard of the method used other than for sampling. My guess would be that they have been introduced to the lakes upstream and populated downwards. If they are confined to the river they could possibly be eliminated. I doubt this could be done without resort a host of measures which would be damaging to trout stocks in the short term.

If pike become prevalent in the most important spawning system for Corrib, I don't think it is unreasonable to fear a noticeable fall in trout and salmon numbers as a result.

demanufactured

J. Ramone wrote: »

Is electrofishing effective in eliminating 100% of a fish species in a river system? I've never heard of the method used other than for sampling. My guess would be that they have been introduced to the lakes upstream and populated downwards. If they are confined to the river they could possibly be eliminated. I doubt this could be done without resort a host of measures which would be damaging to trout stocks in the short term.

If pike become prevalent in the most important spawning system for Corrib, I don't think it is unreasonable to fear a noticeable fall in trout and salmon numbers as a result.

LOL

The WRFB have done enough damage to corrib by themselves.

ironbluedun

[ If pike become prevalent in the most important spawning system for Corrib, I don't think it is unreasonable to fear a noticeable fall in trout and salmon numbers as a result.[/quote]

yes they appear to be in the lakes further upstream so they will do damage to trout and salmon stocks, that is certain. They must be removed in so far as much as it is possible to do so.

Bratach Bán

This made the Irish Times today. The plan is to gill net and electrofish, apparently.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

J. Ramone wrote: »

Is electrofishing effective in eliminating 100% of a fish species in a river system? I've never heard of the method used other than for sampling.

well getting 100% of a fish species out of a river system will very hard. There will nearly always be a few left behind.

ironbluedun wrote: »

yes they appear to be in the lakes further upstream so they will do damage to trout and salmon stocks, that is certain. They must be removed in so far as much as it is possible to do so.

+1
When would be a good time to electro fish? Im mainly a pike and course angler, dont know too much about when salmon, trout spawn. The amount of electric current to stun a 1lb pike, would surely do some damage to a 1/2 oz trout?

Sfinn

As a keen salmonid angler, I'm disgusted that someone would introduce pike into the waters of Conamara. Their view on the environment is like looking through an eye of a needle.

Who ever did this will never have a days luck!! My only concern is where else did they introduce them:mad: Were they introduced to the top of the Screeb system or even Ballinahinch or Inagh!!!!

We have enough alien species to contend with!!!

My question is whats the reaction of The Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC)!! on this matter. I've seen no response!!!!!

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Sfinn wrote: »

My question is whats the reaction of The Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC)!! on this matter. I've seen no response!!!!!

Im sure they feel the same way you do. Why wouldn't they?

beer enigma

Sfinn wrote: »

As a keen salmonid angler, I'm disgusted that someone would introduce pike into the waters of Conamara. Their view on the environment is like looking through an eye of a needle.

Who ever did this will never have a days luck!! My only concern is where else did they introduce them:mad: Were they introduced to the top of the Screeb system or even Ballinahinch or Inagh!!!!

We have enough alien species to contend with!!!

My question is whats the reaction of The Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC)!! on this matter. I've seen no response!!!!!

IFPAC have been very quiet on a lot of things for a while to be honest - even their website hasn't seen an update for almost a year.....

stylie

Rodney White Drop wrote: »

When would be a good time to electro fish? Im mainly a pike and course angler, dont know too much about when salmon, trout spawn. The amount of electric current to stun a 1lb pike, would surely do some damage to a 1/2 oz trout?

I helped electro fish a few rivers to survey stocks and noticed that the larger the fish the more easily stunned they are compared to smaller fish. Maybe to do with the lateral line or body mass I dont know. We did it on a carp lake and all the 10lb'ish carp would pop up and stay on the top for you to net while the smaller silver fish hardly broke the surface.

Zzippy

Rodney White Drop wrote: »

well getting 100% of a fish species out of a river system will very hard. There will nearly always be a few left behind.



+1
When would be a good time to electro fish? Im mainly a pike and course angler, dont know too much about when salmon, trout spawn. The amount of electric current to stun a 1lb pike, would surely do some damage to a 1/2 oz trout?

Yes, its very difficult to remove 100%, so I'm sure this will be an ongoing operation, possibly annual. Re electrofishing, the longer the fish, the easier it is to catch - smaller fish are less affected. Not sure exactly why. BTW the fish are not "stunned" - the electric current interferes with the nerve impulses in their muscles, so they cannot swim, and float to the surface, or downstream in a river, and become easy to catch. They recover very quickly once placed into a bucket of well oxygenated water.

Rodney White Drop wrote: »

Im sure they feel the same way you do. Why wouldn't they?

They do. Any responsible angler who fishes for any species would condemn this act. Environmental vandalism is right!

jimi_t

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes, its very difficult to remove 100%, so I'm sure this will be an ongoing operation, possibly annual. Re electrofishing, the longer the fish, the easier it is to catch - smaller fish are less affected. Not sure exactly why.

I'm nearly certain that the greater the surface area of the fish, the more of a 'dose' they get. Terrible to hear... why the hell would someone do this? Irish waters are in serious enough trouble as it is; regardless of the angling aspect of it.

ButcherOfNog

Sfinn wrote: »

My question is whats the reaction of The Irish Federation of Pike Angling Clubs (IFPAC)!! on this matter. I've seen no response!!!!!

Not sure what you expect from them, apart from an announcement that they condem illegal stocking of any fish, have they not come out and said this?

I would hope they would help relocate the Pike, rather than killing the Pike, which from watching the RTE article on this, is what is happening. Seems mad considering the efforts to curb the killing of pike with new ByLaws, and yet the WRFB do what they are now at. Two wrongs don't make a right. Also reporting in national newspapers that "Irish Anglers have no interest in Pike", is just plain wrong.

I do find it hard to believe someone would stock Pike like this, the logistics involved in fish stocking would not be something "anybody" could just do. Evening moving a couple of Pike would be extremely difficult as they are very fragile fish (once out of the water). I'd like to see the statistics from the WRFB on the pike removed, on the number, length and weight of them, so the age of the fish could be determined. Would give more of an idea if and when the stocking took place, or if it was more likely to be a natural introduction (via egg's from birds).

Zzippy

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

Not sure what you expect from them, apart from an announcement that they condem illegal stocking of any fish, have they not come out and said this?


I would hope they would help relocate the Pike, rather than killing the Pike, which from watching the RTE article on this, is what is happening. Seems mad considering the efforts to curb the killing of pike with new ByLaws, and yet the WRFB do what they are now at. Two wrongs don't make a right. Also reporting in national newspapers that "Irish Anglers have no interest in Pike", is just plain wrong.

The reason movement of fish around the place is illegal is twofold - 1. to stop non-native fish introductions and 2. to stop transfer of disease. The fisheries authorities are subject to strict criteria before they can transfer any fish - AFAIK they have to get the fish tested and certified disease free first - this also involves catching the fish and holding them in specially constructed fish holding facilities while they are tested and while the lab work is done. The Marine Institute have to clear the fish for disease and then issue a fish movement order. Also, the receiving water has to be surveyed and it must be demonstrated that there is capacity to stock extra pike into it. So its not a simple matter of taking them out of one water and moving them to another.

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

I do find it hard to believe someone would stock Pike like this, the logistics involved in fish stocking would not be something "anybody" could just do. Evening moving a couple of Pike would be extremely difficult as they are very fragile fish (once out of the water).

If someone moved a few pike, close to spawning time, within a couple of years you could have a substantial population of juvenile pike. All it takes is a bin of water and a jeep or van. Corrib is only a few miles away, with a big head of pike there. And pike aren't that fragile, they are a lot tougher than people realise. Was told once of a specimen pike sent to Dublin by post wrapped in paper for certification, back in the days when you had to kill the fish. 24 hours after it was caught, it was received in Dublin, and the guys who opened the parcel noticed the fish was still showing signs of life, so they put it into water and it revived. Maybe an extreme example, but pike are well capable of being moved a few miles by amateurs.

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

I'd like to see the statistics from the WRFB on the pike removed, on the number, length and weight of them, so the age of the fish could be determined. Would give more of an idea if and when the stocking took place, or if it was more likely to be a natural introduction (via egg's from birds).

Largest pike caught AFAIK was about 7lbs, most of them are juveniles from this year's spawning or last year's. So they maybe in the lake 2 or 3 years.
As for eggs from birds, thats total rubbish - show me one single scientific paper where this was proven, anywhere. If you want to be taken seriously, don't spout old wives tales.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Zzippy wrote: »

BTW the fish are not "stunned" - the electric current interferes with the nerve impulses in their muscles, so they cannot swim,
!

learn something new every day!

Sfinn

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

Also reporting in national newspapers that "Irish Anglers have no interest in Pike", is just plain wrong.

I do not intend to sling mud, but the vast majority of Salmonid anglers care very little about pike. Remember pike are an invasive species themselves, along with the Cyprinid family and perch.

In refernce

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

I do find it hard to believe someone would stock Pike like this, the logistics involved in fish stocking would not be something "anybody" could just do. Evening moving a couple of Pike would be extremely difficult as they are very fragile fish (once out of the water). I'd like to see the statistics from the WRFB on the pike removed, on the number, length and weight of them, so the age of the fish could be determined. Would give more of an idea if and when the stocking took place, or if it was more likely to be a natural introduction (via egg's from birds).

How do you think course fish were introduced to various amenities? Did they happen to fall out of the sky!!!:mad: There are anglers out there for one reason of another believe that they are doing right in spreading various fish species etc, along with their parasites and other diseases. This country is renowned for its salmonid fisheries and long may it continue, the growth in other areas is welcome, but it must be managed in accordance with best practice etc. And those who criminally damage our environment should be pursued under the laws of this state.

Finally, the WRFB do not always get it right either, but thankfully they exist. They have done tremendous work on the invasive species expecially LAGAROSIPHON MAJOR. Beir Bua!!

Bratach Bán

Zzippy wrote: »

.
As for eggs from birds, thats total rubbish - show me one single scientific paper where this was proven, anywhere. If you want to be taken seriously, don't spout old wives tales.

Don't know about pike, but this can happen.

The ornamental lake in front of AIB Ballsbridge had a healthy stock of roach that arrived, according to the groundskeeper, courtesy of ducks from the canal. Same with the lake in Stephen's Green.

Zzippy

jimi_t wrote: »

I'm nearly certain that the greater the surface area of the fish, the more of a 'dose' they get. Terrible to hear... why the hell would someone do this? Irish waters are in serious enough trouble as it is; regardless of the angling aspect of it.

I thought it was more to do with length - the longer the fish the more current differential from one end to the other, so they get a larger "zap" of electricity. I'm no sparky though, so not an expert!
You're right though, Irish waters are in enough trouble without people moving fish around like this...

ButcherOfNog

Easy on lads, never said I agreed with what happened, it's illegal to move fish without the correct authorisation from the Dept of the Marine, if someone did, and it can be proven and they can be punished, great.

If the only thing separating these waters with/without pike was a single waterfall, then it's perfectly possible flood conditions or birds did in fact cause the situation. There is plenty of evidence of coarse fish moving in this way via water fowl. And with any rise in water levels, coarse fish like roach immediately forge upstream.

Ok, lets say it was a person(s) that introduced the pike, why would someone do that? Only reason I can think of is spite, some form of petty nonsence. It's not as if the anglers would be able to fish for the pike in those waters without being caught and fined!

EDIT: Thinking on this, the amount of dim witted anglers we all see on the banks .... who knows what goes on in the minds of some of these folk

Zzippy

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

Easy on lads, never said I agreed with what happened, it's illegal to move fish without the correct authorisation from the Dept of the Marine, if someone did, and it can be proven and they can be punished, great.

If the only thing separating these waters with/without pike was a single waterfall, then it's perfectly possible flood conditions or birds did in fact cause the situation. There is plenty of evidence of coarse fish moving in this way via water fowl. And with any rise in water levels, coarse fish like roach immediately forge upstream.

Have you ever seen the falls on this river? I have, and am 100% sure no pike would be able to get up. Plus, these lakes have been fished for hundreds of years and never a pike caught in them til recently. And as I said earlier, find one scientific reference where transfer by birds has been proven and I'll accept it could happen, til then dream on.

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

Ok, lets say it was a person(s) that introduced the pike, why would someone do that? Only reason I can think of is spite, some form of petty nonsence. It's not as if the anglers would be able to fish for the pike in those waters without being caught and fined!

EDIT: Thinking on this, the amount of dim witted anglers we all see on the banks .... who knows what goes on in the minds of some of these folk

I suppose all the carp that have been illegally introduced around the country were put there out of spite? Or the chub in the Inny? Or roach in hundreds of other fisheries? Lets face it, there are some anglers out there who care nothing about the ecology of a lake, they care only about the sport they can have with the species they want to fish for. Its also possible it was done out of spite, maybe someone who was jealous of the people who were allowed to fish a private fishery. Whatever the motive, it was wrong.

Guru Maith Agut

Zzippy wrote: »

Was told once of a specimen pike sent to Dublin by post wrapped in paper for certification, back in the days when you had to kill the fish. 24 hours after it was caught, it was received in Dublin, and the guys who opened the parcel noticed the fish was still showing signs of life, so they put it into water and it revived.

If you are going to expect us to believe that when you use the term "thats total rubbish" about the bird theory at least try and support your claim with more than "was told once..".
Was this over several bottles of whiskey? :pac:

Zzippy wrote: »

As for eggs from birds, thats total rubbish - show me one single scientific paper where this was proven, anywhere. If you want to be taken seriously, don't spout old wives tales.

And as for your disbelief of birds spreading fish spawn perhaps you should gain some knowledge before being so dismissive and go and read this piece by Charles Darwin from his "On the Origin of Species":

"When ducks suddenly emerge from a pond covered with duck-weed, I have twice seen these little plants adhering to their backs; and it has happened to me, in removing a little duck-weed from one aquarium to another, that I have unintentionally stocked the one with fresh-water shells from the other. But another agency is perhaps more effectual: I suspended the feet of a duck in an aquarium, where many ova of fresh-water shells were hatching; and I found that numbers of the extremely minute and just-hatched shells crawled on the feet, and clung to them so firmly that when taken out of the water they could not be jarred off, though at a somewhat more advanced age they would voluntarily drop off. These just-hatched mollusks, though aquatic in their nature, survived on the duck's feet, in damp air, from twelve to twenty hours; and in this length of time a duck or heron might fly at least six or seven hundred miles, and if blown across the sea to an oceanic island, or to any other distant point, would be sure to alight on a pool or rivulet."

So fish's eggs could potentially get stuck to birds who have recently visited one lake and be deposited in the next. You'll be telling us next that there is no such thing as evolution.

ironbluedun

The pike still should not be there - get them out alive or dead i dont really care.

ironbluedun

and there is no way a pike would get over the falls at Oughterard, its hard enough for salmon and trout to get up, never mind pike. they were introduced by gob****es

Macspower

Was fishing in Leitrim at the weekend and was speaking to one of the waterkeepers.. Seems a pike Cull will start in Janurary to remove illegal pike. I was asking if there was any other way and he said that there was too much expense/red tape in trying to relocate as they need testing and the place they put them into has to have reports etc etc

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

ironbluedun wrote: »

and there is no way a pike would get over the falls at Oughterard, its hard enough for salmon and trout to get up, never mind pike. they were introduced by gob****es

+1

ironbluedun wrote: »

The pike still should not be there - get them out alive or dead i dont really care.

They probably will be killed when they are caught. The effort in relocating them is pretty huge, Ive learned a good bit thanks to this thread! get them out as quickly as possible, without putting the trout\salmon at risk. Im a pike angler, i understand where you are coming from. This would be a bit like someone introducing zander into my local river. I would react the same way, get them out dead or alive

ButcherOfNog

[Edit: This post was replying to the deleted post of fishder]

That's not particularily constructive, and in truth, is the sort of attitude that has caused the divides in angling in Ireland. It's not needed.

beer enigma

fishder - comments edited out as they are completely unconstructive !!

Guys in general - good to see a lively chat on this - just remember everyone is entitled to their views

Andi

ironbluedun

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

That's not particularily constructive, and in truth, is the sort of attitude that has caused the divides in angling in Ireland. It's not needed.

In my opinion it is exactly what is needed. far too much fianna fail-ure red tape and bull**it in this country. just get on with it and remove them.

(i also like to pike fish in winter, i am not anti pike, but they have to be removed from the Owenriff system, they do not belong there, i fully support the work of the fishery board)

Freethinker

I was always told by my older relatives, guys i fish with and local mwildlife enthusiats etc. that coarse fish can colonise any fresh water in which they have a food source and clean oxygenated water.

I've heard this happens by eggs sticking to birds and animals and land crossing eels etc. and i always assumed it was true, and it makes sense to me to be honest.

I once seen, and im not making this up, a 3 to 4 pound pike i n stephens green pond. I doubt it was stcked there. Its just natural for these things to find their way into available habitat.

Pike dont travel by sea so if they cannot colonise in this way every individual watercourse or lake would in time have a very genetically poor population and eventaully each would have a unique species if we are to believe Mr Darwin.

Is it not possible then that these pike were not introduced? after all, who would bother doing somethin so pointless?

like i said, i've no expertise or particular knowledge in the field so feel free to destroy me, but only with science!

ButcherOfNog

ironbluedun wrote: »

In my opinion it is exactly what is needed. far too much fianna fail-ure red tape and bull**it in this country. just get on with it and remove them.

(i also like to pike fish in winter, i am not anti pike, but they have to be removed from the Owenriff system, they do not belong there, i fully support the work of the fishery board)

My post was in relation to the post Andip removed. Not anything else on the thread.