ENDGAME CIE - The Worst Public Transport Provider in Europe Dies Here.

Nostradamus

Reading over some of the damning information coming to light about how out of control the Beast of Tara Street really is - I would like to open a thread which we can all make suggestions to end the disaster known as CIE.

1) Split it into 3 companies dealing with Railways, Dublin Bus, Urban Bus Services (all other cities and towns), Provicial Bus Services. All completly independent public service providers answering directly to the a new Public Transport Agency which will cordinate all services and intergration, performance targets between all public transport operators.

2) Have all bus operators in all towns share the same bus stop. The sitution here in Tubbercurry whereby the CIE bus serves the centre of the town and the independent bus companies banished to the margins and backroads is common in many towns and this has to end. There is one priviso; They all have their timetables posted at the bus stop - NOT JUST THE ex-CIE SERVICES. In many provincial towns the number of bus services would double and triple at the main bus stops if this simple measure was undertaken. It would be a simple form of intergration which would cost nothing except making a handful of CIE fruitcake fanatics huffy.

3) Create a Statutory Public Transport Users group made up of commuters and not directors of companies, senators, bankers and TCD professors.


OK your turn.

Cookie_Monster

Get someone who runs a Swiss transport company to come in and take it over. Free range to make whatever changes they feel are necessary bar wholesale closures of routes that rural communities rely on as their only link.

jasonbourme.cs

defo agree with OP's suggestions . we need fresh faces in irish public transport people who actually know how to run a public transport system would be a good start .

but not sure if there if there is a fix that could be implemented by anyone brought in to replace the existing management due to current economic climate but sorting some of the below would be a good start :



you just need to look at the last few years to see how badly things are going
weekend services suspended for almost a year so they can extend platforms and still most of the darts are too short to fit commuters in without them effectively being cattle carts ( suggestion : more carriages on trains )

the new automatic ticket checking machines , great in big stations like connolly and tara street . rubbish in grand canal dock ! try getting out of that place if 2 darts come in at the same time :mad:hope your not in any rush !!! ( scarp this rediculas waste of money and invest properly )

express commuter trains from rosslare to dublin( and vice versa ) , generally full after kilcoole (or pearse if your going the other way) because on a regular basis there only 3-4 carriages long instead of " as Irishrail insist 5-6 carriages long " ( same suggestion as first point : more carriages on trains )


the Dart "Cops" , generally seen swanning about or flirting with young women , cant say I've ever seen one of these guys remove someone from a train , be it scumbag , junkie or drunken yob ( suggestion : do your jobs ! )

RadioCity

I know little about the railways so can't really comment but have long observed the bus operation in Ireland. Many valid points have already been raised. Some of my suggestions now follow:

One transport authority for the entire country overseeing all transport issues; for example licensing, ticketing, timekeeping targets, vehicle standards, timetabling with any interested parties on board

Review the express services and increase their attractiveness by not serving every town and village end to end. Use motorways as much as possible. By all means serve main towns and have reliable services feeding to and from them. Feeder services could also apply to the railways.

The OP suggested all operators on a route to serve the same stop- fair point, if this is not possible then an agreed street/s in the affected town's centres.

Have each City's services including run by one part of the company each with their own branding on the same base livery, for example that county's own colours and renamed Cork Bus, Limerick Bus, Sligo Bus and so on. Review what services can become part of Dublin Bus (for example Ashbourne even if is an express between the M50 and the City Centre).

That leaves Express and Local/Commuter routes. These should be operated by another group of drivers with buses liveried appropriately for either Express or Local Commuter.

Ensure there is a place for private operators, although I'm not really in favour of two operators traversing the same route.

serfboard

RadioCity wrote: »

I'm not really in favour of two operators traversing the same route.

I disagree with you on this. There is now, and there certainly will be when the motorways are built, more than enough business for more than one operator. In fact, the more competition on these routes the better for passengers. (Galway->Dublin, for example, currently has 3 competing services, Galway->Shannon and Galway->Limerick/Cork has 2).

A certain Mr McCarthy, you may recall, has advocated flogging off Bus Eireann expressway. I don't think this will happen, but if it did, it would want to be done properly, so that you didn't get monopolies on certain routes jacking up prices.

BTW OP, I don't think you will get many changes in CIE without there being changes in the mentality in the Department of Transport. My number one proposal there is:

Make everybody in the Department, from the Minister down, come to work on Public Transport.

You'll find that this will focus minds fairly fast.

kingshankly

Nostradamus wrote: »

Reading over some of the damning information coming to light about how out of control the Beast of Tara Street really is - I would like to open a thread which we can all make suggestions to end the disaster known as CIE.

1) Split it into 3 companies dealing with Railways, Dublin Bus, Urban Bus Services (all other cities and towns), Provicial Bus Services. All completly independent public service providers answering directly to the a new Public Transport Agency which will cordinate all services and intergration, performance targets between all public transport operators.

2) Have all bus operators in all towns share the same bus stop. The sitution here in Tubbercurry whereby the CIE bus serves the centre of the town and the independent bus companies banished to the margins and backroads is common in many towns and this has to end. There is one priviso; They all have their timetables posted at the bus stop - NOT JUST THE ex-CIE SERVICES. In many provincial towns the number of bus services would double and triple at the main bus stops if this simple measure was undertaken. It would be a simple form of intergration which would cost nothing except making a handful of CIE fruitcake fanatics huffy.

3) Create a Statutory Public Transport Users group made up of commuters and not directors of companies, senators, bankers and TCD professors.


OK your turn.

change the record for christs sake

gally74

good to see a sligo man starting a post,

quite simply drop them, provide rular transport through support to private bus operators, and let someone take over irish rail,

for instance if i travel from galway to dublin
1. if i fly with aer arann the govt are subsiding it,
2. if i go with bus eireann the govt are subsiding it,
3. if i go on the train the gov aresub......

4. i could go with citylink and have free wifi!!

now 4 is where i am,

nuts to be subsidinh travel cometing with each other

KC61

gally74 wrote: »

good to see a sligo man starting a post,

quite simply drop them, provide rular transport through support to private bus operators, and let someone take over irish rail,

for instance if i travel from galway to dublin
1. if i fly with aer arann the govt are subsiding it,
2. if i go with bus eireann the govt are subsiding it,
3. if i go on the train the gov aresub......

4. i could go with citylink and have free wifi!!

now 4 is where i am,

nuts to be subsidinh travel cometing with each other

BE is not subsidised for its Expressway services but for the local services.

The level of service on the route is unsustainable in the long run and one or other of the operators will give way eventually - there are currently 60 return bus journeys per day, 30 non-stop and 30 stopping.

KC61

I think that the OP is being a little unfair here. Certainly the principal problem in the case of the buses is not primarily either CIE, Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann but rather the Department of Transport and its archaic licensing regime which has delayed many service improvements, and also political interference which left heavily loss making bus routes still operating carrying thin air over the years.

Bus Eireann came out of the recent Deloitte study as being efficient and on a par with other major operators, which would leave you to believe that by and large they are getting it right, while Dublin Bus is now embarking on an eighteen month route network and timetable overhaul that will hopefully see a far more customer minded service develop. This has already started with the rollout of routes such as the 128, 140, 145 and 151 that are direct and high frequency. A new network spider map is in the pipeline and the rollout of new bus stops in the city centre with better information is continuing.

HydeRoad

KC61 wrote: »

...Dublin Bus is now embarking on an eighteen month route network and timetable overhaul that will hopefully see a far more customer minded service develop. This has already started with the rollout of routes such as the 128, 140, 145 and 151 that are direct and high frequency. A new network spider map is in the pipeline and the rollout of new bus stops in the city centre with better information is continuing.

It's all for nothing if they don't get rid of this ridiculous, archaic, time consuming business of buses sitting at busy, congested bus stops for five or six minutes conducting endless revenue collection. Buses should pull in, all doors open, disgorge, load instantly, and pull out, in an average of 15 seconds, and a maximum of 30 seconds. That would do wonders for their efficiency, and the traffic flow of the whole city. I don't care how they collect their revenue, that is the kind of target they need to set themselves, and reorganise their revenue collection accordingly.

If they won't tackle that, then they are not getting the benefit of rescheduling buses and introducing new timetables. All they are doing is moving the deckchairs. This revenue collection FARCE is the single biggest anachronism in the company, contributing more to their inefficiency, to delays, to fleet size, to extra staff requirements, to costs, to loss of potential patronage, than anything else in the whole system. Why can't they seem to realise this? And before you mention the word, this should apply across the board to private operators too.

Heart

Fare collection methods are a good point, but in order for any proper changes to take place in this regard, I would be of the opinion that cash fare collection & prepaid ticket control must be under one decision maker, not split between the Dept. of Transport & Dublin Bus... either full control or no control.

H

crocro

Most of these suggestions are either in last year's Dublin Transport Authority act or this year's Public Transport Regulation Bill which has passed all stages in the Oireachtas and is awaiting the president's signature.

Nostradamus wrote: »

1) Split it into 3 companies dealing with Railways, Dublin Bus, Urban Bus Services (all other cities and towns), Provicial Bus Services. All completely independent public service providers answering directly to the a new Public Transport Agency which will cordinate all services and intergration, performance targets between all public transport operators.

Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are already split and reporting to one authority - CIE. Obviously it's not working and the new system will have all organisations under the National Transport Authority which will be separate from the Department of Transport. All transport companies including the state dinosaurs will in future have to compete with private operators for licences to operate on all routes. The incumbents get 2 years grace but after that anybody can bid for and then run anything as far as I can see.

2) Have all bus operators in all towns share the same bus stop. The sitution here in Tubbercurry whereby the CIE bus serves the centre of the town and the independent bus companies banished to the margins and backroads is common in many towns and this has to end. There is one priviso; They all have their timetables posted at the bus stop - NOT JUST THE ex-CIE SERVICES. In many provincial towns the number of bus services would double and triple at the main bus stops if this simple measure was undertaken. It would be a simple form of intergration which would cost nothing except making a handful of CIE fruitcake fanatics huffy.

This makes sense and is in section 62 of the DTA Act 2008

3) Create a Statutory Public Transport Users group made up of commuters and not directors of companies, senators, bankers and TCD professors.

The Transport authority council provides for 4 representatives (out of 24). Those representatives are drawn from recommendations of transport user groups. It's not great - for example ICTU and business people get 4 reps between them - but it's a start and better than nothing.

IE and Dublin Bus and BE have not failed because they are evil organisations run by wasters. They have failed because they have been set up to as companies owned by the minister with a permanent licence to operate regardless of service level. They are rewarded for meeting the short terms aims of politicians rather than serving the public. The management get the same pay for running a good or a bad service. They are only really penalised for politically embarrassing their minister. SO naturally their efforts are focused on avoiding strikes and running disused services in amrginal constituencies.

This is how we end up with a 100 seater bus with one door for exit and entry and this is how we end up with rude staff and abysmal reliability.

I am optimistic that in the future, the DTA may hand over a lucrative route like the 46A to a company that makes a better bid promising for example to give change to customers or to provide buses with 3 doors or to improve on the reliability of the previous operator. I hope the old incumbents will then be sold off or allowed to wither away.

Nostradamus

crocro wrote: »

Most of these suggestions are either in last year's Dublin Transport Authority act or this year's Public Transport Regulation Bill which has passed all stages in the Oireachtas and is awaiting the president's signature. Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are already split and reporting to one authority - CIE. Obviously it's not working and the new system will have all organisations under the National Transport Authority which will be separate from the Department of Transport. All transport companies including the state dinosaurs will in future have to compete with private operators for licences to operate on all routes. The incumbents get 2 years grace but after that anybody can bid for and then run anything as far as I can see.

This makes sense and is in section 62 of the DTA Act 2008

Tops! Delighted to see this finally happening. The only thing is WILL it happen.

Nostradamus

kingshankly wrote: »

change the record for christs sake

What happened? Did the CIE canteen run out of Crunchie bars and you could only get 6 of the 10 shop stewards to agree to an all out naional transport strike until the issues was resolved?

kingshankly

Nostradamus wrote: »

What happened? Did the CIE canteen run out of Crunchie bars and you could only get 6 of the 10 shop stewards to agree to an all out naional transport strike until the issues was resolved?

it was seven shop stewards by the way;)

DWCommuter

crocro wrote: »

Most of these suggestions are either in last year's Dublin Transport Authority act or this year's Public Transport Regulation Bill which has passed all stages in the Oireachtas and is awaiting the president's signature. Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail are already split and reporting to one authority - CIE. Obviously it's not working and the new system will have all organisations under the National Transport Authority which will be separate from the Department of Transport. All transport companies including the state dinosaurs will in future have to compete with private operators for licences to operate on all routes. The incumbents get 2 years grace but after that anybody can bid for and then run anything as far as I can see.

This makes sense and is in section 62 of the DTA Act 2008

The Transport authority council provides for 4 representatives (out of 24). Those representatives are drawn from recommendations of transport user groups. It's not great - for example ICTU and business people get 4 reps between them - but it's a start and better than nothing.

IE and Dublin Bus and BE have not failed because they are evil organisations run by wasters. They have failed because they have been set up to as companies owned by the minister with a permanent licence to operate regardless of service level. They are rewarded for meeting the short terms aims of politicians rather than serving the public. The management get the same pay for running a good or a bad service. They are only really penalised for politically embarrassing their minister. SO naturally their efforts are focused on avoiding strikes and running disused services in amrginal constituencies.

This is how we end up with a 100 seater bus with one door for exit and entry and this is how we end up with rude staff and abysmal reliability.

I am optimistic that in the future, the DTA may hand over a lucrative route like the 46A to a company that makes a better bid promising for example to give change to customers or to provide buses with 3 doors or to improve on the reliability of the previous operator. I hope the old incumbents will then be sold off or allowed to wither away.

I don't share your optimism.

For a start, while DB, BE and IE are 3 seperate companies, they must receive approval from the CIE board, hence John Lynch popping up to discuss rail and bus issues. The DTA bill does not provide for the abolition of CIE. This was most recently announced by the late Seamus Brennan in 2003, The result? All out warfare from the CIE group. Since then, nothing. The questions that need to be asked are why are CIE companies and their unions so protective of CIE as an entity? What purpose does John Lynch and his board fulfill?

As for public representation on the DTA, the council idea has already failed in the selection process. The guidelines for inclusion specifically called for a recognised qualification or experience in public transport. This means that it will be dominated by quango and agenda filled reps from organisations that have no direct link to everyday users. While in my submission to the DTA bill, I outlined the importance of having public representative bodies included in the decision making process, I believe the actual incarnation is far too diluted to deliver anything groundbreaking. Realistically the Dublin Cycling Campaign and Rail Users Ireland (formerly Platform 11), as two examples, should have a seat at the table. I doubt they will. I was invited to apply, but since I no longer work with RUI, I deemed it pointless, assuming they would nominate an existing committee member.

Add to the mix, the recently stated "national" aspect of this authority and its hard to be positive. My bottom line lies with CIE and its utterly pointless existance.

Judgement Day

Derek - at least you were invited to apply - I guess my invite went astray in the post.

AlekSmart

This is how we end up with a 100 seater bus with one door for exit and entry and this is how we end up with rude staff and abysmal reliability.

I am optimistic that in the future, the DTA may hand over a lucrative route like the 46A to a company that makes a better bid promising for example to give change to customers or to provide buses with 3 doors or to improve on the reliability of the previous operator. I hope the old incumbents will then be sold off or allowed to wither away.

CroCro was flying in thst post until the bit about change.....:o

Huge and very valid point regarding the single door issue,although to be fair to Bus Atha Cliath,their single door specification was arrived at after much consideration of alternatives.

One of the greatest sources of complaint in the UK during the initial phase of the "Accessible" Low-Floor Bus was the lack of seating in the lower saloon on the "London Standard" Bus Types.

In some cases the UK models could only manage 12-16 seats for the many older,infirm but NOT disabled customers and this resulted in a very poor initial impression of the Low-Floor concept.

Bus Atha Cliath`s reasoning was to maximise the seating capacity in the lower saloon whilst retaining the Wheelchair Space as required by the various accessibility leglislation acts.

The single door also maximises Driver monitoring of fare tendering and ticket use.
Whilst I would strongly agree with a multi-door policy,that can only be realized IF we move to completely cash-free operations a la London Central Zone.

There is NO place for continuing or propagating any expansion of cash transactions.
Yet again here we see the Department of Transport spending some €30 Million on an Integrated Ticketing Project which after some 4 years has yet to produce a single example of a functional product.

This accounts for the piecemeal introduction of the Bus Atha Cliath "Smartcard" which really does need some hard marketing,but which remains deliberately low-key as the required Departmental sanction for "New" products is not yet forthcoming.

Basically as it stands,Bus Atha Cliath may not introduce any SmartCard enabled New Product,but instead may only supplement or replace a pre-existing Magnetic Strip product.

Even then,the travelling public can be remarkably reluctant to adopt "New Fangled" stuff.....

I have often pointed out to customers who regularly queue to fumble and pay a €2.20 cash fare morning and evening that bthey can make that same journey for €1.80,IF they purchase a Travel90,which then can also be used several times within the 90 min window....but an incredible amount simply shrug their shoulders and say..."ah sure I`d keep losing it" or "ah sure them yokes never work..."

Public Transport options in Dublin HAVE become far better in the past decade but we have failed to keep that momentum going and to develop our options at a fast enough pace.

Now,with the slide into a deep depression we see Public Transport now being focused on as an area in which cuts can be made...talk about short-sightedness....another strongpoint of Irish Public Administration !!

At some point the Minister for Transport and his Departmental clique needed to be given a very firm "Boot up the Transom" in relation to making real change possible...it never came and most likely now,never will.

Mycroft H

Double tracks to sligo. Why on earth wasnt this implemented on the transport 21 scheme, I dont know. A single line to sligo is just not good enough. It was fine when there was only 3 trains a day to sligo, but tring to cram 8 intercitys a day plus many more commuter trains to longford is just not going to work. 40 minute delays are not unusual on this route. The sligo line is the poor relation to all the other dublin lines, its well time that was fixed

Judgement Day

The town of Sligo has a population of approx 20,000 - hardly a city - and there is no earthly way that you could justify doubling the line on that basis. You're lucky to still have a railway to Sligo at all and you might not have had it had some of us not kicked up a fuss about it in the 1990s when closure looked possible. I still have fond memories of marching from Connolly to the Dail behind a pipe band to protest and, yes, we travelled up by train not car! A proper train of MkII carriages with decent seating, large tables and even a buffet car! If you want to improve the Sligo rail service you want to improve the rolling stock not double the track.

KC61

While doubling the entire line would be overkill, a few dynamic loops (in other words extended passing loops) on the Sligo, Galway, Mayo and Waterford lines would not go amiss in order to minimise delays caused by trains running late.

Nostradamus

kingshankly wrote: »

it was seven shop stewards by the way;)

What happened the others? Another SIPTU/NBRU golfing forthnight "The Jim Larkin Gold Cup Classic" being held in Bali this year?

Nostradamus

landyman wrote: »

Double tracks to sligo. Why on earth wasnt this implemented on the transport 21 scheme, I dont know. A single line to sligo is just not good enough. It was fine when there was only 3 trains a day to sligo, but tring to cram 8 intercitys a day plus many more commuter trains to longford is just not going to work. 40 minute delays are not unusual on this route. The sligo line is the poor relation to all the other dublin lines, its well time that was fixed

The Sligo line beyond Maynooth is a poor passenger puller - it carries no more passengers than a British rural branch line. The double track to Maynooth is fine.

You can get up to 20 trains going in both directions an hour if you have the right signalling and 2 passing loops and train drivers not terrified of normal operational speeds and work. The Swiss do this all the time.

The lack of frequency of services on our mostly single track network is down to two technical issues:

• Irish Rail Managers and Technical Staff are living in 1930's Uganda
• Irish Rail Unions think they are living in 1917 St Petersburg.

Nothing to do with infrastructure and everthing to do with the title of this thread.

crocro

DWCommuter wrote: »

...All out warfare from the CIE group. Since then, nothing.

As we are now up the creek, the power of the unions is greatly weakened. There will be little public sympathy and the government will face them down.

The questions that need to be asked are why are CIE companies and their unions so protective of CIE as an entity? What purpose does John Lynch and his board fulfill?

Unions are naturally conservative and wouldn't want job losses or even changed working arrangements in any of the government owned transport companies. The unions are doing what they should do: maximising benefits for their members. They can't be expected to bat for the passenger - that's not their job.

CIE is caught between a rock and a hard place. They're meant to run the service efficiently for the customers, but they are under constant pressure from their sole shareholder, the minister, to run the service for politicial expediency. The solution is some form of separation of powers.

As for public representation on the DTA, the council idea has already failed in the selection process. The guidelines for inclusion specifically called for a recognised qualification or experience in public transport. This means that it will be dominated by quango and agenda filled reps from organisations that have no direct link to everyday users. While in my submission to the DTA bill, I outlined the importance of having public representative bodies included in the decision making process, I believe the actual incarnation is far too diluted to deliver anything groundbreaking. Realistically the Dublin Cycling Campaign and Rail Users Ireland (formerly Platform 11), as two examples, should have a seat at the table. I doubt they will. I was invited to apply, but since I no longer work with RUI, I deemed it pointless, assuming they would nominate an existing committee member.

I'm also disappointed by the make up of the council. Particularly there is no need for worker or employer side cartel made men from IBEC or ICTU. But is still better than what went before. RUI and DCC are tiny groups little known to most passengers or cyclists so I don't know that handing them all the representation is right. A better approach might be to randomly select a jury from the list of those with annual travel passes - the average guy or girl who uses public transport every day.

Add to the mix, the recently stated "national" aspect of this authority and its hard to be positive. My bottom line lies with CIE and its utterly pointless existance.

What's wrong with a national authority? Bus services in the towns outside Dublin are very poor and often forgotten. As for CIE, they will have to compete for their subsidies in future against private operators and will have to reform or die.

AlekSmart wrote: »

In some cases the UK models could only manage 12-16 seats for the many older,infirm but NOT disabled customers and this resulted in a very poor initial impression of the Low-Floor concept.

Is 12-16 seats for the infirm not plenty? A decent bus service would attract the general public rather than just the old, the sick, the infirm. Able-bodied people can go upstairs or stand. Lots of other cities have multi-door buses.

The single door also maximises Driver monitoring of fare tendering and ticket use.

Clearly asking the driver to issue tickets and change and catch fare dodgers slows the service up enormously. Imagine if every luas passenger had to squeeze through one door and have a chat with the driver on the way in. Yet often a bus carries more passengers than a luas. Put a ticket machine at every second stop, more doors, more inspectors, end of problem.

Yet again here we see the Department of Transport spending some €30 Million on an Integrated Ticketing Project which after some 4 years has yet to produce a single example of a functional product.

There are contactless cards in use on bus tram and soon on the train. So I think it's going somewhere. Other posters in this forum have outlined how a lot of the problem with integrated ticketing is getting separate transport companies to agree how to divvy up the fare revenue. I hope in future that agreeing to revenue sharing will be a prerequisite for getting your transport licence renewed.

Even then,the travelling public can be remarkably reluctant to adopt "New Fangled" stuff.....

I have often pointed out to customers who regularly queue to fumble and pay a €2.20 cash fare morning and evening that bthey can make that same journey for €1.80,IF they purchase a Travel90,which then can also be used several times within the 90 min window....but an incredible amount simply shrug their shoulders and say..."ah sure I`d keep losing it" or "ah sure them yokes never work..."

If there was an option to pay the luas driver double fair for cash rather than use the machine you can bet the tram would be delayed all day by lonely people who prefer to deal face to face. The answer is to take away the option.

Now,with the slide into a deep depression we see Public Transport now being focused on as an area in which cuts can be made...talk about short-sightedness....another strongpoint of Irish Public Administration !!

A recession may be the only chance to get reforms made to public transport. I see this time as a golden opportunity for change. Cutting expenditure on a public transport may improve the service to the general public. A lot of the money in the past has been spent on running disused empty buses and trains or on paying Dart drivers 60 grand to push a button or on allowing layers of staff to build up and slow everything down. This tends to happen in all organisations but in state owned companies it's usually politically impossible for reform.

Nostradamus

crocro wrote: »

What's wrong with a national authority?

Because this is Ireland and we'll absolutely end up with a priest from Mayo demanding a TGV to Knock at the expense of something as basic as proper bus-rail integration within the East Leinster region.

graduate

I hope in future that agreeing to revenue sharing will be a prerequisite for getting your transport licence renewed.

Absolutely. All licensed services should be required to take rambler tickets and the like.

antoinolachtnai

On the Swords Express, we were very anxious to take rambler tickets and other types of Dublin Bus tickets, but Dublin Bus (in conjunction with the Department of Transport, it seems) would not countenance any arrangement.

patrickbrophy18

Judgement Day wrote: »

The town of Sligo has a population of approx 20,000 - hardly a city - and there is no earthly way that you could justify doubling the line on that basis. You're lucky to still have a railway to Sligo at all and you might not have had it had some of us not kicked up a fuss about it in the 1990s when closure looked possible.

It is attitudes like this which really annoy me. The standard of public transport in this country is a shambles. As for the closure of certain lines, this is a disgrace when you consider the transportation systems of other countries. In the last century many new lines have been built in other countries and cities while in this backward country we have buried and dismantled lines.

Judgement Day

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It is attitudes like this which really annoy me. The standard of public transport in this country is a shambles. As for the closure of certain lines, this is a disgrace when you consider the transportation systems of other countries. In the last century many new lines have been built in other countries and cities while in this backward country we have buried and dismantled lines.

Sorry - could you be more specific? If you examine any of my previous posts on these boards you will not find anybody more in favour of sensible rail development. For instance I would consider reopening Inny Junction/Cavan to be a much more worthwhile project than doubling Maynooth/Sligo.:)

Nostradamus

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It is attitudes like this which really annoy me. The standard of public transport in this country is a shambles. As for the closure of certain lines, this is a disgrace when you consider the transportation systems of other countries. In the last century many new lines have been built in other countries and cities while in this backward country we have buried and dismantled lines.

For the love of God you are not paying attention to what the man is saying and what most people on this board are trying to express.

The reason why we have a public transport system in Ireland which is a "shambles" is because CIE and their Consorts in the DoT do not know the difference between providing public transport as a tokenist concept (neither do you it would seem), and providing PUBLIC TRANSPORT SERVICES.

It is akin to a dairy producing liter sized milk bottles with only a few spoonfuls of milk in each bottle and then claiming the only way they can get more milk in the bottle is by getting more delivery trucks. That's how distorted the CIE concept of public transport services is, and how people like you have bought into the same crap. It's not about more kit and new tracks and trains - it's about making the stuff (which is 90% world class and modern) they already have be maximised to its full potential, and the unions/managers in CIE - DO THEIR BLOODY JOBS WE PAY THEM TO DO.

The very idea of double the track on the Sligo line past Maynooth is absolutely psychotic beyond even the lunacy of the Western Rail Corridor and the fact that you can't see this shows that the so called ones demanding world class public transport in Ireland are just as clueless as the culprits they point the finger at. They have extra platforms recently built at Mullingar and they do not even use that. Complete waste of taxpayers money. A platform which is unused is not public transport...it is an unused platform. Fill it with trains and commuters and it is a SERVICE. Do you see how that works?

Sligo is a small town of about 19,000 people and it is already serviced by a completely adequet and world class, state-of-the-art infrastructure and rolling stock. The Sligo line would be the envy of the Swiss network in terms of its modernisation. The only difference is any Swiss rail operater would have it filled with Inter-City, regional and Commuter shuttles with connecting buses, and freight trains would be using it late at night. Here it lies idle most of the day the CIE buses do not connect with it and The Lynch Mob and the rest of them are rattling the poor box down at Kildare Street so they can build skyscrapers above Tara Street and you cannot drive a train for CIE unless your mother was impregnated by a CIE train driver and you have at least 50% CIE DNA in you.

CIE is the problem, always has been, always will be. The Beast Must be Destroyed.

parsi

One good start would be if our transport providers didn't have to kow-tow to every parish pump politician.

Nostradamus

parsi wrote: »

One good start would be if our transport providers didn't have to kow-tow to every parish pump politician.

I agree 100% with this.

However, nobody is forcing CIE to build a skyscraper on the top of Tara Street during a global collaspe in the commercial property sector while at the same time they are culling public transport services in order to save money.

No one and nothing other than CIE is responsible for this carry on. They can only take the parish pump excuse so far.

CIE have also used the parish pump (and especially trainspotters rural locosexual fantasies) when it suited them. For years now they have used the WRC as a means to not develop integrated bus services in the West. They were perfectly happy to allow and encourage the collective dellusion of a Sligo - Limerick rail "corridor" which they knew was technically impossible and would never happen.

Stop making excuses for that malignant dinosaur. CIE and its symbiotic cancers of Management and Unions have to die if public transport in Ireland is to flourish.

There is no other option. They have had 75 years to get it right and prove they could deliver public transport and they failed miserably. Goodbye and good riddence.

Heisenberg1

Nostradamus wrote: »

I agree 100% with this.

However, nobody is forcing CIE to build a skyscraper on the top of Tara Street during a global collaspe in the commercial property sector while at the same time they are culling public transport services in order to save money.

No one and nothing other than CIE is responsible for this carry on. They can only take the parish pump excuse so far.

CIE have also used the parish pump (and especially trainspotters rural locosexual fantasies) when it suited them. For years now they have used the WRC as a means to not develop integrated bus services in the West. They were perfectly happy to allow and encourage the collective dellusion of a Sligo - Limerick rail "corridor" which they knew was technically impossible and would never happen.

Stop making excuses for that malignant dinosaur. CIE and its symbiotic cancers of Management and Unions have to die if public transport in Ireland is to flourish.

There is no other option. They have had 75 years to get it right and prove they could deliver public transport and they failed miserably. Goodbye and good riddence.

Broken record comes to mind for this post

dermo88

It may be a broken record, but it cannot be worse than the broken CIE, with its corrupt management and unbroken unions.

Frankly, CIE needs to be smashed. The Unions there need to be emasculated in a bloody strike that will enable a proper functional system to arise like a Phoenix from the ashes.

corktina

the worst in Europe? No I wont have it......

..theres a transport company in Eastbourne....

bazzer

Thank you, Major!

Judgement Day

Bring back the Cravens and everything will be alright! I love steam heating....!!

AlekSmart

Bring back the Cravens and everything will be alright! I love steam heating....!

Be careful what you wish for,in the current economic climate ANYTHING is possible...and the steam would be self-generated by the passengers !!!

Nostradamus

The property developers are fighting back...

Iarnród Eireann not 'rife with fraud' - Lynch

Tuesday, 27 October 2009 16:02
The Chairman of CIE, Dr John Lynch, has denied that Iarnród Eireann is 'rife with backhanders and fraud'.
Mr Lynch told the Oireachtas Committee on Transport that three individuals had been sacked because of fraudulent activity.
The Chief Executive of Iarnród Eireann, Dick Fearn, said the fraudulent activity had cost the company €665,807, of which €100,000 had been repaid.
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He said €271,000 related to collusion with a contractor, €363,000 to the illegal sale of railway equipment such as sleepers, and €30,000 to invoices for work not done.
An investigation of procurement and internal controls at Iarnród Eireann identified an actual loss of €2.4m, including the €665,807 in fraudulent activity and losses incurred on procurement.
Senator Shane Ross pointed out that at one point the consultants carrying out the investigation had used a figure of €8.7m in a draft report when estimated historical losses were included.
Mr Fearn said this was a 'guesstimate' of what might have happened, not a firm figure of actual loss.
Senator Ross said it was 'a very serious estimate of historic loss'.

Anyone know who the three individuals were? Was the Garda involved?

If they were quietly spirited away then that's not good enough.

woodsl

abolish cie / national transport authority. why do we have these as well as a department of transport? (buck passing / jobs for the boys?)

privatise operation of all services (like the luas is now). oversight and regulation to be done by dept of transport, responsible to the accounts committee.

private operator contracts to be awarded through the tendering process.

some sort of passenger rating system to be implemented (have a crap journey, give a crap rating). private operator must achieve a certain satisfaction level or contract is lost.

by doing that, you reduce the cost of operation, you put the passenger's needs first and you replace the "i couldn't give a sh!te" attitude shown to ireland's commuters with a "how can we make your journey better" one.

dowlingm

Whilst I would strongly agree with a multi-door policy,that can only be realized IF we move to completely cash-free operations a la London Central Zone.

The least that could be done is an exit-only rear door. Here in Toronto the rear open-outward doors are operated by departing passengers pushing on a handle, so that exiting passengers don't impede boarding/paying customers. While I'm sure a skanger or two has managed to get in before they spring closed, I've never seen it personally.

dub_commuter

Did anyone see today's Article in the evening herald singing the praises of CIE who attempts to justify the recent fraud investigation because after all CIE have done so much for everyone and that somehow seems to make fraud acceptable from what the writer is trying to convey.

It's also interesting to see the article claims that CIE passenger numbers are not dropping despite the fact we already know they are by their own admission . It then totally loses credibility when it claims Dublin Bus have a fleet of over 1,200 vehicles, conveniently forgetting the 200 which were withdrawn recently which mean the fleet is now around 1050.

Now I'm not the biggest critic of CIE, they have done some good things during their time, but when I read this article I got the distinct impression it was a result of some PR work somewhere down the line rather than someones view.

Not that I read the Herald reguarly bu I thought some here might like to see it.

Television news viewers would have seen the Oireachtas Transport Committee take CIE to task for a fraud which had cost the company €665,000.

What the TDs and senators failed to acknowledge was the huge improvement in the quality of bus and rail services over the past decade.

Chairman Dr John Lynch told the Oireachtas TransportCommittee that its Irish Rail subsidiary had fired three employees after discovering a €665,000 fraud.

When other losses, such as EU grants which had been approved but couldn't be drawn down were added, the total cost of the affair rose to €2.6m.

Quite apart from the fact that it was Irish Rail itself which discovered the scam and notified gardai, the controversy being generated by the affair means that we are in danger of missing the wood for the trees at CIE.

As someone who travels by rail I can personally testify to the massive improvement in the quality of the service sinceLynch took over as CIE chairman in 2000.

The DART and other commuter rail routes serving Dublin have also been massively upgraded with the increase from four to six-carriage trains.

Skimpy schedules on antique rolling stock have given way to much higher service frequencies on modern carriages and locomotives. Irish Rail has met the challenge posed by cheap air fares and better roads head on.

This hasn't come cheap. In the six years to the end of 2008 almost €1.9bn was spent upgrading the railways. After decades of under-investment money poured into the railways.

Scrutiny

Even a €2.6m loss to fraud represents less than one euro in every 700 spent on the railways over the past six years. It would be interesting to see how well the multi-billion euro roadbuilding budget would stand up to a similar level of scrutiny.

The improved quality of rail services on offer rapidly fed through into higher passenger numbers, which increased by almost a third from 35.5 million passengers in 2003 to 45.5m million passengers in 2007, the highest number of rail passengers carried since CIE was founded 60 years ago.

While Irish passenger numbers fell by almost 5pc last year, they are still more than a fifth higher than they were earlier this decade.

There has also been major investment at Dublin Bus. Since 2003 more than €210m has been spent on new buses and other related transport equipment for Dublin Bus.

Despite the opening of the Luas light rail system in 2005, most of whose 28 million passengers a year were previously Dublin Bus customers, it has managed to maintain passenger numbers.

With over 1,200 modern buses servicing 193 routes, many of them travelling on quality bus corridors, today's Dublin Bus is light years ahead of bus services endured by Dubliners even a decade ago.

Unfortunately for him, Lynch's achievement in dragging CIE and its subsidiary companies kicking and screaming into the 21st century has never been adequately recognised.

Instead his straight-from-the-hip, take-no-prisoners style has made him many enemies in political and administrative circles. While there is much that remains to be done at Irish Rail and Dublin Bus - integrated ticketing is long overdue - there is no denying the enormous progress recorded at both companies under Lynch's leadership.

CIE and its subsidiary companies are in much better shape now than they were at the beginning of the decade when Lynch moved into the CIE hotseat. When he was appointed to the position over nine years ago there were many people, myself included, who genuinely believed that the job was an impossible one. Instead through dint of hard work Lynch has managed to haul CIE back from the brink.

This is something that Lynch's critics would do well to bear in mind the next time they choose to haul him over the coals.

CIE is no FAS. There is absolutely no comparison between the two -- with CIE being turned from a basket case company with constant strikes into a modern transport company.

Indeed there is a lot to be said for putting Luas under the ambit of Lynch and providing a truly integrated transport system for Dublin.

Nostradamus

What the TDs and senators failed to acknowledge was the huge improvement in the quality of bus and rail services over the past decade.

Which CIE were forced kicking and screaming to undertake. The Maynooth Suburban project they fought tooth and nail not to undertake and even when it started they tried everything from crappy rolling stock to bizzare "commuter" services times to kill it off.

Quite apart from the fact that it was Irish Rail itself which discovered the scam and notified gardai, the controversy being generated by the affair means that we are in danger of missing the wood for the trees at CIE.

Don't you just love this logic. Is the Herald implying that companies should turn a blind eye to fraud and let it continue!

What next, mothers should be congradulated for changing their babies nappies?

As someone who travels by rail I can personally testify to the massive improvement in the quality of the service sinceLynch took over as CIE chairman in 2000.

Yes, he had staggering sums of cash to do this miracle. So he is a hero for spending other people's money on what he was paid a huge salary to do. At what point will the Herald be nominating Dr Lynch to the Vatica for sainthood...:rolleyes:

The DART and other commuter rail routes serving Dublin have also been massively upgraded with the increase from four to six-carriage trains.

Which was done in the most disrupted fashion possible and took years to do because of CIE union work pratices.

Skimpy schedules on antique rolling stock have given way to much higher service frequencies on modern carriages and locomotives. Irish Rail has met the challenge posed by cheap air fares and better roads head on.

Money again. Lots of it.

This hasn't come cheap. In the six years to the end of 2008 almost €1.9bn was spent upgrading the railways. After decades of under-investment money poured into the railways.

Wow, you don't say...

Even a €2.6m loss to fraud represents less than one euro in every 700 spent on the railways over the past six years. It would be interesting to see how well the multi-billion euro roadbuilding budget would stand up to a similar level of scrutiny.

Fair point. But CIE has wasted way more than 2.6 million in the last 10 years. How much did the MK 4s cost?

The improved quality of rail services on offer rapidly fed through into higher passenger numbers, which increased by almost a third from 35.5 million passengers in 2003 to 45.5m million passengers in 2007, the highest number of rail passengers carried since CIE was founded 60 years ago.

That's because the economy was triving, the population boomed and more Irish people were on the move more than ever. Put it this way, IE gaining huge increases in ridership in the last 10 years was completely due to external factors impacting on the economy. It was not due to them being snazzy salesmen. If that was the case explain the Lim-Waterford "service". That's a far more telling example of that company than them picking up the benefits of the Celtic Tiger by being the only game in town.

While Irish passenger numbers fell by almost 5pc last year, they are still more than a fifth higher than they were earlier this decade.

This is moronic beyond belief.

There has also been major investment at Dublin Bus. Since 2003 more than €210m has been spent on new buses and other related transport equipment for Dublin Bus.

Spending other people's money is easy.

Despite the opening of the Luas light rail system in 2005, most of whose 28 million passengers a year were previously Dublin Bus customers, it has managed to maintain passenger numbers.

No, they were previously car commuters who never took Dublin Bus.

With over 1,200 modern buses servicing 193 routes, many of them travelling on quality bus corridors, today's Dublin Bus is light years ahead of bus services endured by Dubliners even a decade ago.

Money again.

Unfortunately for him, Lynch's achievement in dragging CIE and its subsidiary companies kicking and screaming into the 21st century has never been adequately recognised.

He landed in the job when the money was flowing. Could of been anyone in that position during this timeframe and the results would of been the same.

Instead his straight-from-the-hip, take-no-prisoners style has made him many enemies in political and administrative circles. While there is much that remains to be done at Irish Rail and Dublin Bus - integrated ticketing is long overdue - there is no denying the enormous progress recorded at both companies under Lynch's leadership.

This is just weird for a newspaper to print!

CIE and its subsidiary companies are in much better shape now than they were at the beginning of the decade when Lynch moved into the CIE hotseat. When he was appointed to the position over nine years ago there were many people, myself included, who genuinely believed that the job was an impossible one. Instead through dint of hard work Lynch has managed to haul CIE back from the brink.

Other people's money.

This is something that Lynch's critics would do well to bear in mind the next time they choose to haul him over the coals.

This is WEst on Track type stuff! LOL.

CIE is no FAS.

The Herald is no Wall Street Journal.

There is absolutely no comparison between the two -- with CIE being turned from a basket case company with constant strikes into a modern transport company.

OK, who can tell me what's wrong with this paragraph?

Indeed there is a lot to be said for putting Luas under the ambit of Lynch and providing a truly integrated transport system for Dublin.

Priceless.

Judgement Day

You got that right the Herald is no Wall Street Journal and like the Sunday Indo I wouldn't wrap chips in it. Who wrote the article Barry Kenny or someone from the Irish Railway Record Society?

HydeRoad

CIE and it's constituent companies are one of the last great anachronisms in this country. They contribute nothing to the travelling public only delay and hassle and expense and inefficiency and waste. I have no respect for people or agencies who are granted taxpayer's money by the bucketload, and absolutely no accountability for how they spend it.

Hungerford

This is like shooting fish in a barrel:

Even a €2.6m loss to fraud represents less than one euro in every 700 spent on the railways over the past six years. It would be interesting to see how well the multi-billion euro roadbuilding budget would stand up to a similar level of scrutiny.

See lads - it's only a bit of old fraud. It's not like staff have been nicking cariogenic railway sleepers and selling them onto the public.

CIE is no FAS. There is absolutely no comparison between the two -- with CIE being turned from a basket case company with constant strikes into a modern transport company.

Hang on, what was the organisation being run by Lynch before he went to CIE? The one that gave him a massive pension bonus that he wasn't entitled to. FAS, wasn't it?

DWCommuter

Unfortunately for him, Lynch's achievement in dragging CIE and its subsidiary companies kicking and screaming into the 21st century has never been adequately recognised.

Lynch's achievement????

First of all CIE as an entity has done damn all in terms of the 21st century and industrial relations are still a bone of contention. Of course their "fantastic" property deal at Spencer Dock is worth discussion.:D

The subsidiary companies are run by the respective CEOs etc.

As recently as 2007 Lynch was a mystery. He didn't do interviews and never answered any correspondence. It was only when the money really started to flow that he popped his head up over the ledge and started to claim credit or get involved in issues. Albeit, this was after a lot of criticism from certain folk.;) Criticism that now sees him "walk" around the city instead of using the car provided.

Still waiting to see him on a bus or train without a politician though. Berk!

Met him in Cork in 2006 and found him to be a foul mouthed, clueless git. It's not surprising to hear that FAS held a party after he left despite their own ineptitude.

HydeRoad

Can someone please explain to me, how, HOW, do these kind of people get promoted to such a high and influential level? God, how I would love to have one tenth of the influence of somebody like Lynch. I'd have to do an awful lot very quickly, as I would upset so many people in the political establishment, I'd be quickly got rid of, but at least I'd bloody earn the pension I'd walk away with, I'd make damned sure.

Nostradamus

HydeRoad wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me, how, HOW, do these kind of people get promoted to such a high and influential level?

Political connections, private golfclubs, posh tennis clubs, rugby clubs, Freemasonic Temples, Rotary Clubs, Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, the right private school ties and many so called chartity organisations which are fronts for old boy networks?

If anyone else can give me an alternative scenario I am willing to hear it.

Nostradamus

DWCommuter wrote: »

Still waiting to see him on a bus or train without a politician

Or a camera crew.

Judgement Day

HydeRoad wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me, how, HOW, do these kind of people get promoted to such a high and influential level? God, how I would love to have one tenth of the influence of somebody like Lynch. I'd have to do an awful lot very quickly, as I would upset so many people in the political establishment, I'd be quickly got rid of, but at least I'd bloody earn the pension I'd walk away with, I'd make damned sure.

They are friends of Bertie's and, of course, the gouger from Clara, our illustrious leader and they are appointed purely on merit!!

Talking of property deals and CIE - don't forget the Horgan's Quay fiasco in Cork....didn't Lowry have some input there as well - another establishment pillock! Ben Dunne built his house for him because he was a fine fellow and sure didn't Ben drop CJ in a bag of money and he never he met the man....I could go on but the weekend, Guinness and rugby are more important considerations....:D