IMPACT backs strike action over pay cuts

Taxipete29

This whole public vs private argument is starting to really piss me off. When is everyone going to wake up to the fact that we are all in this together.

Private sector got the rewards in the good times and can now take the pain in the bad. Public sector got pay increases due to a greater tax take, that is no longer the case, so you can take a pay cut.

Both sides have huge mortgages, both sides have seen a drop in real terms in their take home pay. Private sector cant operate without the public sector and vice versa.

It was not the ordinary worker who caused this mess. People on social welfare did not create this mess. The person who runs an SME did not cause this mess.

The Banks through irresponsible lending practices and corrupt behaviour caused this mess.
Developers who exploited the working person through infalted house prices caused this mess.
The Government through a lack of regulation and lack of fiscal responsibility caused this mess.
The Government through benchmarking, tax breaks for developers, irresponsible spending of state agencies caused this mess

Why the hell are the working people of this country turning on each other instead of those who brought us to the brink of bankruptcy as a nation. I am not calling for workers to revolt and overthrow the evil capitalist oppressors but we do need to join together and get ourselves out of this mess and make damm sure that we never allow another Government to engage in the kind failed economic policy that this one has for the last 12 years.

AARRRGH

Taxipete29 wrote: »

This whole public vs private argument is starting to really piss me off. When is everyone going to wake up to the fact that we are all in this together.

That's the problem. The private sector workers are doing their bit (redundancies, pay cuts) but the public sector workers aren't willing to take any pain. Don't try to spoof me into believing the pension levy is a pay cut, it's not. (I appreciate it seems similar to a pay cut though).

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The Banks through irresponsible lending practices and corrupt behaviour caused this mess.
Developers who exploited the working person through infalted house prices caused this mess.
The Government through a lack of regulation and lack of fiscal responsibility caused this mess.
The Government through benchmarking, tax breaks for developers, irresponsible spending of state agencies caused this mess

You forgot to mention the #1 culprit (by a long mile) in this mess: the average dumbo who took out a massive loan for an overpriced property.

bridgitt

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Private sector got the rewards in the good times

nothing like as good as the public sector got, per hour worked. Plus many cannot retire.

jmayo

orourkeda wrote: »

Who's to blame?

Is it the unions for being unrealistic and attempting to justifying their existence?
YES they are to blame for continuing to look for increments, pay rises and even continuing conditions that can't be met anymore since there is no longer any F***ING money.


Is it the government for poor economic management?
YES because they pandered to every dept, union etc when they wanted more of the gravy train that has come of the rails.
Worse still they set up the gravy train to benefit their friends who hapopened to be the station builders

Is it the general public for irresponsible borrowing?
No not really unless they happen to be speculators or multi property landlords.


Is it the bank for irresponsible lending?
YES because they are now bankrupt and need government cash, they lent too much to allow a housing bubble, which caused increases in house prices and salaries demands, and allowed eejits in government to take their eyes off the real economy.


The thing is you can answer yes to all the above questions but will anyone take a step back and accept their share of the blame? The answer is no


Ah yes it is all our fault. Spread the blame or better still blame the foreigners for coming here to work, to lend or just for being foriegners :rolleyes:

Slow Motion wrote: »

So if all the public sector workers go on strike will anyone notice the drop in productivity?

Productivity will probably go up in certain areas, after all less traffic on phone lines, broadband links and the few working will be bored so they will actually work.

Diana Blue Sealskin wrote: »

I won't take the blame, I only owe a few grand for my college loan

Anyway, who is on strike? I might write their HR dept a letter:
...

You will find that the hr department is the first one out on strike. :rolleyes:

Degsy wrote: »

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?
When has the government every said "Its time to tax the wealthy,not people with mortages on 30k a year".
This is all a conspiracy to set both sides against each other so we lose sight of who really caused this mess..

Why should the public sector be targetted ?
Because the public sector are paid by the government, i.e. the state, and the state hasn't the fu**ing money it had a few years ago when the public sector spending was covered by huge stamp duty and vat receipts.
Not even mentioning the income tax lost and increased unemployment benefit hit on the other side of the equation.

As regards public sector spending, it was hugely increased by an inept government who pandered to public sector dominated unions.

Public sector workers demanded and got benchmarking awards, because private sector workers in certain areas (originally IT and technology and later construction) were making very good money.
BTW it was firstly down to a thing call being in demand and second these sectors had rapdi increases in output.

We heard public sector people claim they wanted to share in the celtic tiger.
Teachers claimed it was due to them because they taught the celtic tiger engineers etc.
Well now they can fu**ing accept a pay reduction, because they also taught the banking eejits, the estate agents, the regulators, etc that have driven this country into the mire.

We all know who created the mess, government, bankers, developers and a few public sector workers in areas such as bank regulation.
That still doesn't help us though, because at the end of the day we are spending too much.

You can say tax the wealthy, but does anyone seriously think that they can squeeze 20 billion a year out of the wealthy ?

Taxipete29

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's the problem. The private sector workers are doing their bit (redundancies, pay cuts) but the public sector workers aren't willing to take any pain. Don't try to spoof me into believing the pension levy is a pay cut, it's not. (I appreciate it seems similar to a pay cut though).




You forgot to mention the #1 culprit (by a long mile) in this mess: the average dumbo who took out a massive loan for an overpriced property.

If it looks like a pay cut and smells like a pay cut and you have less money at the end of the month then the chances are its a pay cut.

dvpower

Zzippy wrote: »

You're comparing the public service to a private firm, as if it competes in the marketplace and has competition, therefore can't raise more revenue. That's a fallacious argument. The public service is a public necessity, that everyone, private sector and public, pays for through our taxes. You can't decide to stop paying tax and avail of alternative government, or public services. Well, you can, if you want to emigrate. But all workers have the responsibility to pay for public services through paying tax.

If the government is broke, it can do two things - cut costs or raise revenue. Or it can do both. It has already cut costs, and is planning more cuts. Fair enough. But why should it not raise more revenue too, through additional tax? The only reason against doing that in your analogy with a private firm is that in a private firm, raising costs would mean losing business to competitors. But the government is the only firm in the business - there are no competitors providing an alternative public service. So raising tax is another viable means of funding the shortfall.

I have a similar experience to another poster here - lots of private sector friends, none of whom have lost their job or taken a pay cut. The private sector have provided no statistics on what percentage have taken pay cuts, yet consistently insist it is "large" or "huge". The same commentators are happy to jump on any stats about the PS as evidence that PS workers are better off.
When I see reliable stats on pay cuts in the private sector I'll believe those commentators. Until then I remain skeptical. A small increase in tax for everyone is fairer than 2 pay cuts for PS staff and none for a lot of private sector staff. We all use public services, we all have to pay for it.

One of the first things that the government done was to raise taxes; a VAT increase, a travel tax, PRSI levies and a pension levy (a tax in all but name).

Have a look at the size of the deficit. Its not nearly pluggable by increased taxes. Sure the government could raise more taxes, but not nearly enough to plug the 4bn gap that it needs to plug this year, never mind the structural 20bn gap. The only way to plug this is by cutting costs in a fairly big way and by economic growth. The government has come to the conclusion that raising taxes further would be damaging to potential growth.

I agree with you that we need our public services. I don't want to see less nurses, teachers or gaurds, but wishing for a different reality doesn't produce it. I can't see how we can dig our way out of the hole we are in without dramatically cutting our public services. Perhaps you can?

The whole public/private row taking place here and elsewhere is a bit of a sideshow. It doesn't really matter if public servants deserve a pay cut or not or if a construction worker deserves to be laid off. Fairness doesn't come into it. Reality bites.

Taxipete29

bridgitt wrote: »

nothing like as good as the public sector got, per hour worked. Plus many cannot retire.

Source??

.

AARRRGH

Taxipete29 wrote: »

If it looks like a pay cut and smells like a pay cut and you have less money at the end of the month then the chances are its a pay cut.

I agree it looks like a pay cut and smells like a pay cut and you have less money at the end of the month, but if you consider what you get in return (an extraordinarily generous guaranteed pension), it is not a pay cut. If anything it's an investment; the problem is the government delayed charging for the investment until a couple of months ago.

I'd happily pay a pension levy for a public sector pension.

gazzer

Idbatterim wrote: »

look if any of my family were in the PS and had to take a pay cut, I couldnt care less, its not like their losing their job or having to work any harder! They need a reality check!

3 staff in my section (out of 10) have taken early retirement. Another staff member is on maternity leave. Another staff member was moved to a different section. So that leave 5 people doing the work of 10. We are run off our feet in work so yes we are working harder. A lot harder.

Idbatterim

the tax increases have been for the most part a disaster, vat increase, travel tax etc, spending cuts are the only way to go for the most part. We are just so screwed with the high cost of doing business here!

Taxipete29

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree it looks like a pay cut and smells like a pay cut and you have less money at the end of the month, but if you consider what you get in return (an extraordinarily generous guaranteed pension), it is not a pay cut. If anything it's an investment; the problem is the government delayed charging for the investment until a couple of months ago.

I'd happily pay a pension levy for a public sector pension.

Most people would, if they had any sense anyway.

I agree, failed government policy has led us down this path. We can hardly blame the PS for wanting to protect what they have. They will take the cuts, everyone knows this. They need to engage in some posturing first.

cyclopath2001

AARRRGH wrote: »

but if you consider what you get in return (an extraordinarily generous guaranteed pension),

OK, if it's not a pay cut, it's a special tax on public sector workers.

The legislation explicitly states that the levy confers no entitlment to anything at all. As in nothing, rien, nada, null....

As for the 'guaranteed pension', that guarantee is worth as much as the next piece of emergency legislation.

Idbatterim

giving is very easy, taking back is very hard as has been proven!

harsea8

Its sad that these threads always descent into a tit-for-tat battle about who had the best boom and who is having the worst recession. Ultimately, as a few posters have pointed out already, whether it is fair that the public sector gets lumped with a pay cut is irrelevant. Unfortunately, the public sectors employer (ie, the country) is broke, so pay cuts and job losses are inevitable. As for raising more by taxing the rich, this will get no where near plugging the hole (although as a nod towards making everyone pay, they should introduce a third tax band for high earners IMO).

Its no different in private sector...for example, my company is doing OK, so I'm still employed and no pay cut for me yet. However, several members of my wife's family have lost jobs or taken pay cuts because the company they work for is in trouble....Is this fair? No. Is this sh*te for those affected? Yes. Is this life? Yes, unfortunately.

Noreen1

AARRRGH wrote: »

You forgot to mention the #1 culprit (by a long mile) in this mess: the average dumbo who took out a massive loan for an overpriced property.

Please explain where you get the impression that so many people are "average dumbos"?

Here's a reality check:

No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

So, explain how someone who believed they had a secure job could have foreseen the kind of unemployment we now face?
Or how a couple who both happen to work in the Public service could have foreseen the severity of the pension levy, much less that it would probably be followed by pay cuts?

Not everyone who now has difficulty paying their mortgage necessarily bought their house at an inflated price, and those who did didn't set the prices, either!

The reality is that the majority of private sector workers wouldn't refuse a pay rise if it were offered to them, so there is no point in scapegoating the Public sector because they were offered that pay rise.

For the record, my personal opinion is that Public service workers will be forced to take a pay cut, as will those on Social Welfare, and the Private sector. I firmly believe the Unions are aware of this fact, and engaging in the type of posturing that both parties engage in prior to negotiations. It is a standard negotiating tactic, and both parties are well aware of that fact.

Whether the type of massive spending cuts being proposed achieves its purpose, or causes the country to implode remains to be seen.

What is certain, however, is that accusing all homeowners who now find themselves in difficulty of being "Dumbos" will not change the fact that the people who are now expected to take pay or welfare cuts are not the ones who are primarily responsible for the mess we now find ourselves in.

Name-calling and public sector vs. private sector bickering is only adding insult to injury.
It also has the rather undesirable effect of focusing attention away from Government policies, and we really wouldn't want to encourage such a lack of responsibility or accountability, now would we?

Noreen

nellumr

Noreen1 wrote: »

Please explain where you get the impression that so many people are "average dumbos"?

Here's a reality check:

No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

So, explain how someone who believed they had a secure job could have foreseen the kind of unemployment we now face?
Or how a couple who both happen to work in the Public service could have foreseen the severity of the pension levy, much less that it would probably be followed by pay cuts?

Not everyone who now has difficulty paying their mortgage necessarily bought their house at an inflated price, and those who did didn't set the prices, either!

The reality is that the majority of private sector workers wouldn't refuse a pay rise if it were offered to them, so there is no point in scapegoating the Public sector because they were offered that pay rise.

For the record, my personal opinion is that Public service workers will be forced to take a pay cut, as will those on Social Welfare, and the Private sector. I firmly believe the Unions are aware of this fact, and engaging in the type of posturing that both parties engage in prior to negotiations. It is a standard negotiating tactic, and both parties are well aware of that fact.

Whether the type of massive spending cuts being proposed achieves its purpose, or causes the country to implode remains to be seen.

What is certain, however, is that accusing all homeowners who now find themselves in difficulty of being "Dumbos" will not change the fact that the people who are now expected to take pay or welfare cuts are not the ones who are primarily responsible for the mess we now find ourselves in.

Name-calling and public sector vs. private sector bickering is only adding insult to injury.
It also has the rather undesirable effect of focusing attention away from Government policies, and we really wouldn't want to encourage such a lack of responsibility or accountability, now would we?

Noreen

Good point but some people made ridiculous rash decisions when it came to buying houses.
Also alot of the noise about the public service is coming from the same place that never questioned the celtic credit tiger.
Only a fool would say that there isn't faults in the public service but it's not the silver bullet that will solve all problems. What's happening now is a culmination of the joke that is Irish politics; the neoptism, gombeenism, apathy and lack of foresight has shown Ireland for what it is, a basket case with no credible leadership or anyone with experience or competence to do anything about it.
For too long the public service was a gravy train for alot of people, how many positions were filled because a td done someone a favour etc
For people getting hysterical now you're a bit late in the day, the government who people want crowds with pitchforks to overthrow were voted in because too many people thought their bloated credit fuelled lifestyle was sustainable, most of the information available today was available then.
By all means have an overhaul of the public service but it's just the beginning.

MysticalRain

Noreen1 wrote: »

Please explain where you get the impression that
No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

Er, plenty of people did. But like every other average dumbo, you just weren't listening. I seem to recall Bertie Ahern labeling the pessimists as communists and telling them to commit suicide. Of course this being Ireland, people just couldn't see past the mentality of "property values can only go upwards" and "if you don't get on the property ladder now, you never will". Like moths to a flame, they just couldn't help themselves and the bankers, builders, and corrupt FF government were happy to facilitate their downfall so the could make a profit out of it. Of course what really gets my goat up is that many of these average dumbo's will still be voting FF after this is all over.

It also doesn't surprise me one bit that many civil servants didn't see this one coming. When you're trapped in your own insular little world, it can be difficult to see the reality outside.

eoinbn

Noreen1 wrote: »

Please explain where you get the impression that so many people are "average dumbos"?

Here's a reality check:

No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

So, explain how someone who believed they had a secure job could have foreseen the kind of unemployment we now face?
Or how a couple who both happen to work in the Public service could have foreseen the severity of the pension levy, much less that it would probably be followed by pay cuts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

Check external debt by % of GDP.

You just need to know where to look. If all you do is listen to economists that work for banks, stockbrokers or government then you are unlikely to hear anything but BS. The amount we were borrowing was pretty much doubling each year for the last 7-8.
When house prices rise by double digits, or anything more than a few %, year after year then it's a bubble and there will be a crash- it's always been like that.

dresden8

Lexus1976 wrote: »

Everybody is taking a cut,.

This is simply not true.

Several people are receiving pay rises and bonuses.

murphaph

Noreen1 wrote: »

No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

gerry28

I agree it looks like a pay cut and smells like a pay cut and you have less money at the end of the month, but if you consider what you get in return (an extraordinarily generous guaranteed pension), it is not a pay cut. If anything it's an investment; the problem is the government delayed charging for the investment until a couple of months ago.

I'd happily pay a pension levy for a public sector pension.

Pension levy is a pay cut. Its extra money coming out of my wages that was not coming out last year yet my pension stays the same in the end.

Its more of a, 'come on lads yous are getting a great pension there... pay a bit more towards it will ya... there's a good lad!!!

ceret

Degsy wrote: »

Why should the public sector be scapegoated for the governments mismanagement and stupidity?
When has the government every said "Its time to tax the wealthy,not people with mortages on 30k a year".

According to IMPACT, two thirds of public sector workers get €40,000 per year (or more). (source)

nellumr

gerry28 wrote: »

Pension levy is a pay cut. Its extra money coming out of my wages that was not coming out last year yet my pension stays the same in the end.

Its more of a, 'come on lads yous are getting a great pension there... pay a bit more towards it will ya... there's a good lad!!!

In fairness if it's a defined benefit pension it is great, and bloody expensive.

bangersandmash

Noreen1 wrote: »

Here's a reality check:

No-one foresaw the Banking Crises, and the "experts" were all denying that there would be a property crash - as late as July '08.

To be fair that's not the reality I remember. Most of those "experts" you're referring to were estate agents, bank economists, CIF members, and property supplement pundits. This is akin to complaining about car salesmen denying that it's a bad time to buy a car.

Some experts did foresee trouble ahead, but they were dismissed as doom-mongers and begrudgers.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2006/1228/1166138534016.html

mikemac

ceret wrote: »

According to IMPACT, two thirds of public sector workers get €40,000 per year (or more). (source)

€40,000 is a very, very decent salary.
And they claim the 33% below that are somehow underpaid or at least better not get a paycut?

OK, members pay union subs and want their union to be active and protect them.
But this looks like an own goal, better take that statement down and put up something else.

cyclopath2001

nellumr wrote: »

In fairness if it's a defined benefit pension it is great, and bloody expensive.

For most, it's about equal in value to the Contributory Social Welfare pension with adult dependent, free fuel, telephone and TV license and medical card enjoyed by the majority of private sector workers.

That's also quite expensive too & not fully paid for by their contributions.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Yes he was predicting it in 2001..I remember that.


If you say something often enough...

thatsa spicy

jmayo wrote: »

You can say tax the wealthy, but does anyone seriously think that they can squeeze 20 billion a year out of the wealthy ?

Exactly. Further taxing the very small cohort of very wealthy people in this country (people on incomes over 150,000, say) isn't likely to do much to help bridge the massive hole in the public coffers. That said, though, they might aswel be taxed at a slightly higher rate anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing the new figures for the number of millionaires in this country now!

mrgaa1

let them strike - they don't get paid for going on strike and when they are into their 2nd and 3rd weeks and the media eventually get round to talking about the war chest that the unions have and the fact they are not giving it out, coupled with the fact that there is no pay coming in and christmas isn't far away they'll be back working - realising that those on the dole can't go back.
Smash the unions!!!!!!!!!

Taxipete29

The figures were announced tonight.

1.3 Billion from PS pay
1.3 Billion from Social Welfare
1.4 Billion from cutting public services.

The devil will as always be in the detail. It works out for PS workers if it is a blanket cut, almost 7% pay reduction. We will have to wait I think till nearer the budget to see exactly how they are making the cuts and what services will be affected.