Asked to be Confirmation Sponsor

Skillie

Heres the dealio. My god daughter (who i love dearly shes a star) has asked me to be her sponsor for her confirmation. I said yes instinctively cos shes a kid and its a big deal for her.
BUT i am an atheist and don't wanna stand up there swearing to God and all that that i'll be there for her as a catholic fellow member of the god club and all that.
What does a sponsor actually do/say/swear on the holy bible to?
Should i stand by my own beliefs and pull the plug on this thus dissapointing my niece and not really being able to explain to her why fully. Or do i go ahead with some fake hypocritical oath that i'm against just to keep her happy.
I'm leaning towards the latter as its the easiest choice for everyone i think.

Hellm0

I stood in for my nephew in the same way, I just mumbled incoherently whenever it was my turn to speak. It's essentially what most people do in church anyway.

Zillah

Do you know what a Godparent actually is? Your role is to ensure the child's correct religious upbringing. You were her sponsor at her Christening. Just go along with it, you're already complicit. It would be a bit unfair to try and back out now. As an atheist you should be fully aware that nothing magic happens at such a ceremony and she will, like most of her generation, realise how silly it all is as she grows.

As she gets older you can drops hints to lead her away from the insanity :pac:

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

Your role is to ensure the child's correct religious upbringing.

Now, there's a get-out clause

Zillah

"Well, let's agree upon a definition of correct before we continue, shall we bishop?"

Skillie

thanks guys, i was only 18 and religious when i became her godfather. right now the lesser of 2 evils would seem to be just stand up there and lie to the god that doesn't exist that i'll help raise her "right" etc

bnt

I couldn't do that - be complicit in fostering the illusion that the kid is locked in to a religion for life. "Confirmation" is where the kid says "I'm an adult now, and I choose to be Catholic", but is that honestly the case?I don't think there's any magic there either, but there is a psychological aspect to it, as well as social pressure to conform.

neilk32

I think its fairly obvious the reason most kids look forward to confirmation is all the presents ya get, i know i didn't give a **** about the religious aspects back then.

Zillah

bnt wrote: »

I couldn't do that - be complicit in fostering the illusion that the kid is locked in to a religion for life. "Confirmation" is where the kid says "I'm an adult now, and I choose to be Catholic", but is that honestly the case?I don't think there's any magic there either, but there is a psychological aspect to it, as well as social pressure to conform.

It's a little more complicated than that. What do you expect him to do? Be damned to the child's feelings, the duty he (though naively) accepted and all the practicalities of the situation in the name of some obtuse principle?

The reason she is so excited is probably because she's getting money and she gets to dress up with all her friends. I was confirmed, had a blast, no idea what was happening and look at me now.

Yes, I think confirmation is a bad thing in principle, and I would like to see it, along with all religious indoctrination of children, phased out. But in this particular circumstance I think backing out would be a little immature and pointless.

(Bloody hell, I'm getting mellow in my old age.)

Hellm0

neilk32 wrote: »

I think its fairly obvious the reason most kids look forward to confirmation is all the presents ya get, i know i didn't give a **** about the religious aspects back then.

Ah now, presents aren't the reason kids choose to be confirmed. I did it for the money! At the time, a side benefit was the realization of this also helped me turn aside any religious issues; knowingly lying for cash was a way to confirm my rejection of the churches moralist dogma.

studiorat

Piece of piss, just cross your fingers and you'll be grand...

Dades

A confirmation sponsor? No idea what's involved in that myself - but it seems that unlike being say, a Godparent, there isn't even a token amount of future responsibility expected.

Go for it. You can both laugh about it in 10 years.*


* In HELL

bnt

Of course I'm not saying that the child's feelings should be ignored, but isn't Confirmation basically the mark of "religious maturity"? If so, I think the child deserves to know the truth about her "godfather". Any less, you're telling her "you're not mature enough to handle this" - but she's mature enough to make a public declaration of lifelong Catholicism?

eoin5

bnt wrote: »

Of course I'm not saying that the child's feelings should be ignored, but isn't Confirmation basically the mark of "religious maturity"? If so, I think the child deserves to know the truth about her "godfather". Any less, you're telling her "you're not mature enough to handle this" - but she's mature enough to make a public declaration of lifelong Catholicism?

Its not the mark of anything though really, I'd say on the list of priorities for most confirmationees number 1 would be the dough and second is not making an eejit of yourself (a friend of mine stepped on the bishops hat ). The rest gets lost in the rirá, a bit like christmas.

The Mad Hatter

I was my brother's sponsor, and an atheist at the time (though admittedly I tried to say no - I was about 14 at the time, and only recently became any good at arguing with my parents).

He's an atheist now too. Or at least some kind of agnostic thingy.

Er...not sure if that helps.

Skillie

Gonna speak to her parents and tell them where i'm at, leave it up to them if they want it to be just a social conformity thing as most do and not really concerned about my beliefs i'll do it. like most kids these days she sees the inside of a church on occassion and when the schools bring them. Her parents wouldn't know i'm an Atheist as i'm never "come out" with a big declaration. they go to mass on xmas and easter and they'd have no idea of my comings or goings with regard to church. i've been kinda agnostic for years and then fully fledged Atheist for maybe 2 at most. I'll chat with my bro and if he wants me to go ahead i will i still think she is too young to try and explain it to and back out.

Dades

Let us know how you get on.

ArthurDent

Skillie wrote: »

. I'll chat with my bro and if he wants me to go ahead i will i still think she is too young to try and explain it to and back out.

why do you think she couldn't handle your explanation at 12 - imo most 12 year olds are pretty good at sussing things out if given a chance

Skillie

Spoke to my brother and he said he couldn’t care less. Told him I’m an atheist now and don’t believe in all that stuff but would do it still to keep her happy if that’s what he wanted. He said that’s cool he doesn’t go to mass any more and has no interest in it so they are not staunch catholics themselves and its not like he’d expect me to be marching her off to mass even if I was a believer. So all in all we’re all gonna be hypocritical social conformists and go along with the charade!! The kid will know no different it makes no odds to her anyway and I’ll grin and bare it

NothingMan

In a somewhat related question, I too am a Godfather to one of my many many nieces, but I recently defected from the Catholic Church. Does that mean she no longer has a Godfather? I never done anything remotely religious with her anyway, but I mean from an official standpoint.

I would be more than happy to keep being her Godfather in a more Corleone context though.

Any ideas or should I ask the C&C guys?

Cactus Col

I think if you're out, you're out. If you turned your back on the Catholic Church, and have no interest in ever returning, then you shouldn't be standing for your niece. If you're worried she'll take it as an insult if you say no, well that's just silliness, as Arthur Dent has said even 12 year olds aren't morons, and can handle these things if given the chance.

Hell, it might even broaden her horizons a little to know that even within her family there are people who don't share the same faith.

I'd also be thinking about the religious implications about having an Atheist stand for her. Does this make the confirmation invalid? Probably doesn't matter to you, or most of the people on here, but down the line, if your niece does become religious it could have a profound effect on her.

If you had any respect for your niece and her beliefs you'd not stand.

Dades

NothingMan wrote: »

In a somewhat related question, I too am a Godfather to one of my many many nieces, but I recently defected from the Catholic Church. Does that mean she no longer has a Godfather?

Since Godparents have no legal standing, they could pretty much disappear off the face of the earth and nothing would change.

The only thing is that tradition has it that you have to buy them gifts and whatnot until aged 21, but that's just an etiquette thing. You not being in the CC should have no bearing on that.

Skillie

Cactus Col wrote: »

I think if you're out, you're out. If you turned your back on the Catholic Church, and have no interest in ever returning, then you shouldn't be standing for your niece. If you're worried she'll take it as an insult if you say no, well that's just silliness, as Arthur Dent has said even 12 year olds aren't morons, and can handle these things if given the chance.

Hell, it might even broaden her horizons a little to know that even within her family there are people who don't share the same faith.

I'd also be thinking about the religious implications about having an Atheist stand for her. Does this make the confirmation invalid? Probably doesn't matter to you, or most of the people on here, but down the line, if your niece does become religious it could have a profound effect on her.

If you had any respect for your niece and her beliefs you'd not stand.

sorry man don't agree at all slightly OTT there. as if my faith could invalidate her catholicism with the god that doesn't exist. its a silly social right of passage in this country. if she turns out to be religious (unfortunately) i doubt the fact that her Godfather's beliefs would have that profound an effect on her. I've never met a kid yet who looked forward to their confer because they wanted to embrace god, it was always just down to a marker for leaving primary school and making a fat loada money

Zillah

Cactus Col wrote: »

Does this make the confirmation invalid?

No. Confirmation is between you and "God" with the Bishop in the middle.

If you had any respect for your niece and her beliefs you'd not stand.

She's 12. Show respect by keeping her happy and letting her enjoy life. She'll have more than enough moments as she gets older where she has to understand the principle behind the actions of people who disappoint/upset/insult her.

I think being a fake sponsor is showing disrespect to the Church, sure, but I can live with that.

Skillie

cheers thats it its showing no respect for the church doing this i've discussed it with her parents and they'd rather i let her be innocent to this and have who she wants there as her sponsor. I'm doing this out of respect for her i hate being inside a church, was at a wedding recently and spent the whole time screaming in my head!! but i'm willing to go through this for her sake. the alternative is to sit her down and give her teh whole, theres no god thing and a copy of the God Delusion!! But at 18 i woulda told an atheist to go to hell. It took me till my mid to late 20's to loose my religion and that was in the face of having a girlfriend who was an atheist. she didn't even convince me i arrived there on my own

Cactus Col

Skillie wrote: »

sorry man don't agree at all slightly OTT there. as if my faith could invalidate her catholicism with the god that doesn't exist. its a silly social right of passage in this country. if she turns out to be religious (unfortunately) i doubt the fact that her Godfather's beliefs would have that profound an effect on her. I've never met a kid yet who looked forward to their confer because they wanted to embrace god, it was always just down to a marker for leaving primary school and making a fat loada money

Sounds like you don't have a problem so.

However, when you stand for someone at confirmation, (as well as accepting the role of godparent) you are acting as a sponsor for the person being confirmed. In the same way, you would not be able to join the Masons, unless a standing member sponsored your initiaton.

It's only a silly social right of passage if you don't believe, however, for those that do it is far more important. You are doing your niece a gross injustice if you assume she's only doing it for monetary gain.

You're also doing her an injustice if you don't think she could handle the reasons for saying no.

It might seem harsh, but I really do think that if you're an atheist, then you should not be participating in religious ceremonies. At the very least it's disrespectful to those others involved in the ceremony.

Skillie

not saying shes only in it for monetary gain shes not calculated just saying kids primarily look forward to it for reasons other than the joys of the catholic church.

shes 12 years old and doesn't need me imposing my beliefs and that on her. her parents wish me to do it. i can't even remember who stood in for me think it was a brother as my godparents are dead. never did that person give me religious council.

i'd much rather not be involved, last night i was 100% convinced i should back out but that was being selfish. As an athesit the last thing i want is to be part in a religious ceremony but these are the cards i've been dealt and i'm just gonna do what i feel is best for her, not the church, the others at the ceremony or myself.

Zillah

Cactus Col wrote: »

However, when you stand for someone at confirmation, (as well as accepting the role of godparent) you are acting as a sponsor for the person being confirmed. In the same way, you would not be able to join the Masons, unless a standing member sponsored your initiaton.

Some might think he's being a sponsor, but to him he is spending a few minutes standing still and saying some words because his niece wants him to be there and he doesn't want to disappoint her. It really is no more complicated than that. You seem to be deliberately trying to inflate the importance of the sponsor's role just so you can make a moral argument.

It's only a silly social right of passage if you don't believe, however, for those that do it is far more important.

Seriously? Do you honestly think there is a danger that ten years from now, she as a devout Catholic will turn around one day and go "You're an atheist! Noooooo! My confirmation is a sham I've been living a lie, nooooo!"

Rondolfus

Skillie wrote: »

Heres the dealio. My god daughter (who i love dearly shes a star) has asked me to be her sponsor for her confirmation. I said yes instinctively cos shes a kid and its a big deal for her.
BUT i am an atheist and don't wanna stand up there swearing to God and all that that i'll be there for her as a catholic fellow member of the god club and all that.
What does a sponsor actually do/say/swear on the holy bible to?
Should i stand by my own beliefs and pull the plug on this thus dissapointing my niece and not really being able to explain to her why fully. Or do i go ahead with some fake hypocritical oath that i'm against just to keep her happy.
I'm leaning towards the latter as its the easiest choice for everyone i think.

Are you serious? Do you not think you're being a bit sanctimonious? Of course you should do it. I know its trendy to be an atheist and all now but come on, no need to be a drama queen about somehting like this. Would you feel the same about helping your nieces or nephews (if you have any) write their letter to Father Christmas?? Would you feel the need to say, " sorry kids, I just don't feel I'm being honest with myself if I help you write your letter to Santa. You see I'm a very deep thinker and have come to the conclusion, through life experience, that Santa doesn't exist. "

If there is one thing I hate more than religious people, its atheists.... This thread has just added fuel to the fire.

Rondolfus

Skillie wrote: »

I'm doing this out of respect for her i hate being inside a church, was at a wedding recently and spent the whole time screaming in my head!! but i'm willing to go through this for her sake.

Wow what a martyr!

I know how you feel, My gf made me watch "PS I love you" last week. I did it for her!!!! But I was screaming in my head dammit!!

Rb

I couldn't/wouldn't do it and personally believe those who are saying to do it, are merely saying so because they have done so themselves. I don't support religion and by part-taking in such rituals, you are supporting it.

There's no point in saying "Ah sure maybe they'll grow out of it", one of the biggest issues is children being labelled things that they don't even understand and this is merely a progression of it.

Zillah

More pedantic principle being favoured over practicalities.

Galvasean

So, while we're here, what exactly is the confirmation for? As a schoolkid I was told it's about rejecting Satan (whic in retrospect, I could do as an atheist). Although the name Confirmation implies that you are confirming yourself as a Christian (Catholic?) - a bit rich to ask an eleven year old to do that.
So, what's it all about then?

*My ignorance of the topic shows you how much I cared about it at the time. sod it, I had bigger things to be concerned about, like the N64 I bought with my confo munies :P

rccaulfield

Zillah wrote: »

Do you know what a Godparent actually is? Your role is to ensure the child's correct religious upbringing. You were her sponsor at her Christening. Just go along with it, you're already complicit. It would be a bit unfair to try and back out now. As an atheist you should be fully aware that nothing magic happens at such a ceremony and she will, like most of her generation, realise how silly it all is as she grows.

As she gets older you can drops hints to lead her away from the insanity :pac:

A godparent is whatever the parents want you to be to the child- The soon to be godfather to my son knows i dont believe in any gods so i said to him what i'm asking him to do is make sure the kid is ok for and education and guidance should anything happen to me amonst other small things. Only reason i'm going ahead with christening is not to offend the grandparents on both sides- They are the last generation that are in any way religious in my line so hopefully my sons generation will be truely free from any pressure to comply with this bronze age nonsense.

Rb

Zillah wrote: »

More pedantic principle being favoured over practicalities.

I do like how you claimed at the beginning that "as an atheist" and went on to imply that atheists should tolerate such ceremonys and "play happy families" on the off-chance that the child may grow out of the religion a few years down the line.

As an atheist one should recognise the problems associated with grouping children together and in doing so leading to an in-group/out-group mentality that comes along with such events. If you choose, as someone who recognises this, to support it then I would question your own principles.

Skillie

Rb wrote: »

As an atheist one should recognise the problems associated with grouping children together and in doing so leading to an in-group/out-group mentality that comes along with such events. If you choose, as someone who recognises this, to support it then I would question your own principles.

i agree in principle but i am not her parent and no matter what i do she will be confirmed. If it was my own daughter we wouldn't be having this conversation. I believe what i believe and don't think i have any right or inclination to become an Atheist missionary/crusader against organised religion. i live my own life and let others live theirs

Making the statement you'd question my own principles makes no sense as i'm hardly faking my own lack of belief now am i?, just because i'm not serving atheism (it ain't a religion) as best as you see fit.

Rb

Skillie wrote: »

i agree in principle but i am not her parent and no matter what i do she will be confirmed. If it was my own daughter we wouldn't be having this conversation. I believe what i believe and don't think i have any right or inclination to become an Atheist missionary/crusader against organised religion. i live my own life and let others live theirs

Making the statement you'd question my own principles makes no sense as i'm hardly faking my own lack of belief now am i?, just because i'm not serving atheism (it ain't a religion) as best as you see fit.

It's not serving atheism but it is serving organised religion/catholicism and everything that comes with it.

At the end of the day, you don't want to upset family, which is understandable but not a route I would personally choose and I think you had your mind made up before you even posted the thread and contiuing from that, had everyone opposed it here you would still see it through.

Just don't forget to stick a few quid in the collection on the day, sure their victims need every cent the church can channel through these days.

Zillah

Rb wrote: »

I do like how you claimed at the beginning that "as an atheist" and went on to imply that atheists should tolerate such ceremonys and "play happy families" on the off-chance that the child may grow out of the religion a few years down the line.

If by "off chance" you mean "almost inevitable", yes. You're really a little out of touch if you think a girl with parents who don't care about religion will end up Catholic because she went through the confirmation ceremony.

As I said, I do disagree with confirmation in principle, but he's not going to bring down the Catholic Church by shunning this one girl's participation in one ceremony in one parish. All he'd do is confuse and upset her. That's it.

Or am I missing something? Be perfectly realistic please, I don't want to hear your obscure principled reasoning, tell me what the net reults would be if he declined to participate.

Blackhorse Slim

Rb wrote: »

I think you had your mind made up before you even posted the thread and contiuing from that, had everyone opposed it here you would still see it through.

Who the hell makes important decisions based on what a bunch of internet geeks think?

:pac:

Rb

Zillah wrote: »

If by "off chance" you mean "almost inevitable", yes. You're really a little out of touch if you think a girl with parents who don't care about religion will end up Catholic because she went through the confirmation ceremony.

As I said, I do disagree with confirmation in principle, but he's not going to bring down the Catholic Church by shunning this one girl's participation in one ceremony in one parish. All he'd do is confuse and upset her. That's it.

Or am I missing something? Be perfectly realistic please, I don't want to hear your obscure principled reasoning, tell me what the net reults would be if he declined to participate.

Almost inevitable? Really? Do you have any form of statistics to show that a significant majority, one that could make such a statement valid, of catholics brought up in non-strictly religious households turn into atheists later in life? Last time I checked the census I believe the non-religious were still quite the minority...or are you making claims based on hearsay and small sample sizes of people you've met?

Regarding your second point, so we should participate in religious ceremonys, as non-religious people, to keep the kids happy? Happy, I should mention, about something they have no understanding of and are being initiated into?

I don't understand the laissez faire attitude towards the church from those who realise the dangers it presents (and the ignorance that comes with it). You may say that one man in one ceremony in one parish can't make a difference, but it has to start somewhere, does it not?

Rb

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

Who the hell makes important decisions based on what a bunch of internet geeks think?

:pac:

Even geekier people on the internet ?!

Sevenspeed

I reckon to go for it, and educate her when she is old enough.

Zillah

Rb wrote: »

Regarding your second point, so we should participate in religious ceremonys, as non-religious people, to keep the kids happy? Happy, I should mention, about something they have no understanding of and are being initiated into?

Did I say that? No, I said in this circumstance he should go along with it.

I don't understand the laissez faire attitude towards the church from those who realise the dangers it presents (and the ignorance that comes with it). You may say that one man in one ceremony in one parish can't make a difference, but it has to start somewhere, does it not?

You didn't answer my very direct question. What would the net result be if this man declined to participate in his niece's confirmation?

fordefitz

I am in a similar position ie. I was joined up to the catholic church as a child cause that's what my heritage was more than my parent's beliefs. I went through the ropes of the sacrements. I now believe in God but cannot see a connection to the catholic church.

I am a godparent and am about to become a sponsor tomorrow. As far as I am aware, my roles in both are to assist and advise these children in their religious lives. I would like to think that if my advise was ever sought I could be open enough to give both sides of the arguments and let the child decide. I will not partake of the browbeating and bully tactics of 'it's this way or the devil, you choose' I've seen too many leaders in this religion bend the rules to suit.

confirmation is about the child confirming in adulthood their devotion to God and the catholic church. this is a crazy notion to expect a 11 or 12 year old to be able to do this. I guarantee if confirmation was changed to 21 or 22 there would be a huge drop in take up. the catholic church are getting these children to confirm their faith before they have realised that they can question things in life. isn't that what we all do in our teens??

my advice - if the child repects you enough to ask you, then stand up there proud. but remember, you are doing it for them not the church. be honest to them when they ask your opinions but not to the extent that they feel your opinion is the be all and end all.

Irlandese

Skillie wrote: »

Heres the dealio. My god daughter (who i love dearly shes a star) has asked me to be her sponsor for her confirmation. I said yes instinctively cos shes a kid and its a big deal for her.
BUT i am an atheist and don't wanna stand up there swearing to God and all that that i'll be there for her as a catholic fellow member of the god club and all that.
What does a sponsor actually do/say/swear on the holy bible to?
Should i stand by my own beliefs and pull the plug on this thus dissapointing my niece and not really being able to explain to her why fully. Or do i go ahead with some fake hypocritical oath that i'm against just to keep her happy.
I'm leaning towards the latter as its the easiest choice for everyone i think.

Yo Skillie,
It boils down to what you want to be in life, buddy, a true person in your own right or just another wally to be used by the RC Church to round up the steers?
So, decide: be a sheep and go along with the flow and accompany your young relative through a farce, where your presence will serve to "sell" the farce and maybe start her on a life of deluded following?
If she gets buggered by the priest in a few years you won't feel just a little bit guilty?
Lets face it, the stats are against her. Kid buggering is standard operating practice for those guys.

Maybe you should tell her the truth? They won't.

DogmaticLefty

Irlandese wrote: »

Yo Skillie,
It boils down to what you want to be in life, buddy, a true person in your own right or just another wally to be used by the RC Church to round up the steers?
So, decide: be a sheep and go along with the flow and accompany your young relative through a farce, where your presence will serve to "sell" the farce and maybe start her on a life of deluded following?
If she gets buggered by the priest in a few years you won't feel just a little bit guilty?
Lets face it, the stats are against her. Kid buggering is standard operating practice for those guys.

Maybe you should tell her the truth? They won't.

You'll have to leave those bigotted views outside the house of God. People like you are the kind of people who will stand up and interrupt proceedings. I once had to man-handle such a person off Church grounds (he appeared to be mentally ill, but really he just read too much Sunday Independent for his own good). And I enjoyed every minute of it!

robindch

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

People like you are the kind of people who will stand up and interrupt proceedings. I once had to man-handle such a person off Church grounds [...] And I enjoyed every minute of it!

Well, standing up and interrupting proceedings seems to be something you enjoy.

Anyhow, as Dades said last night, you're welcome to post here and contribute to the debate. However, your endless posts on how you enjoy "man-handling" people, the exact dimensions of your alpha-manly frame, your latest exam scores, the unsuitability of your Chinese ex-girlfriend's hips for your fine Irish DNA and so on, went from silly to stupid in half an afternoon.

Drop the Münchausen's or you'll be taking a holiday.

DogmaticLefty

robindch wrote: »

Drop the Münchausen's or you'll be taking a holiday.

Your site, your rules. You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to. Of course, there's always the ignore button (incidentally, a lot of your friends have succumbed to mine already).

robindch

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to.

Got it in one.

Dades

Irlandese wrote: »

If she gets buggered by the priest in a few years you won't feel just a little bit guilty?
Lets face it, the stats are against her. Kid buggering is standard operating practice for those guys.

Don't mistake this as defending the church - but your vitriol is a little too acute for our tastes here.
Tone down your approach if you want to stick around.

Tigger

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

You'll have to leave those bigotted views outside the house of God. People like you are the kind of people who will stand up and interrupt proceedings. I once had to man-handle such a person off Church grounds (he appeared to be mentally ill, but really he just read too much Sunday Independent for his own good). And I enjoyed every minute of it!

fine example of christianity

like when the roman came for Jesus and Jesus zapped them with his lightning of wrath, then peter and mark put them in arm locks and threy them into their own prisons