Asked to be Confirmation Sponsor

Irlandese

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Your site, your rules. You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to. Of course, there's always the ignore button (incidentally, a lot of your friends have succumbed to mine already).

Dogswhatever,
Robindch says it for all of us.
However, sorry lad, those who talk about manhandling people without first having a look at our CVs and our physical capacities are usually scared little girly types ( with apologies to women who I do not intend to tar with the same brush as dodswhatever here) hiding behind anonymous script. I read your type like a book. A sad, ugly and inadequate and very little book..............
Please use the ignore button on all of us. In fact, use it on the human race, we do not need your prattle.............

Irlandese

Dades wrote: »

Don't mistake this as defending the church - but your vitriol is a little too acute for our tastes here.
Tone down your approach if you want to stick around.

okay, both points taken.
Still keep that eye on "dogswhatever" too!

Dades

^^ Keep your own house in order - Robin and I will look after this one.
And put Lefty on ignore if it will stop you from getting personal in your ripostes to him.

Antbert

I'm a bit torn on this... On the one hand I would agree with Zillah's point of looking at the net result. And the net result is basically that you can annoy and upset a kid who wants to have a fun day with her friends, or you can just go along with it as it means nothing to you either way. On the other hand... Well I know I wouldn't do it. I just really hate the idea of humouring the whole stupid confirmation tradition way too much.

Then again, you did say that when you were religious you agreed to be her godfather so you and I are in different situations as I'd never have agreed to be her godmother. In which case maybe just go back to Zillah's point...

But then that's like saying "Well I changed my mind, but no one can know because it's too shameful".

Argh.

I don't know!

I'm sorry. The absolute opposite to help.

Daftendirekt

I'd just go along with it to be honest.

It's not like you're helping to indoctrinate her into being a good little Catholic, and by the sounds of it, you can rest easy knowing the parents aren't either.

If I remember correctly, all the sponsor does is go up to the altar with the child, rest a hand on one shoulder, mumble some nonsense about rejecting Satan and then go out for the meal or drinks or whatever comes after.

The kid has a fun day, gets a bunch of presents, you and the parents have a fun day, some photographs get taken, no harm done.

allisbleak

Antbert wrote: »

I'm a bit torn on this... On the one hand I would agree with Zillah's point of looking at the net result. And the net result is basically that you can annoy and upset a kid who wants to have a fun day with her friends, or you can just go along with it as it means nothing to you either way. On the other hand... Well I know I wouldn't do it. I just really hate the idea of humouring the whole stupid confirmation tradition way too much.

My nephew is making his communion, I have made sure he is aware that there are thousands of religions and gods. They have these religion books now that are pitifull to read. How is a child supposed to differentiate between the drivel in these books and reality?

Rb wrote: »

I don't understand the laissez faire attitude towards the church from those who realise the dangers it presents (and the ignorance that comes with it). You may say that one man in one ceremony in one parish can't make a difference, but it has to start somewhere, does it not?

Yes it does. I have been invited to 2 religious things in the next 2 months. I shall bring a good book with me for the church part and sit in my car reading. I voice my disdain for religion anytime another person mentions religion to me.

allisbleak

Daftendirekt wrote: »

I'd just go along with it to be honest.

It's not like you're helping to indoctrinate her into being a good little Catholic, and by the sounds of it, you can rest easy knowing the parents aren't either.

If I remember correctly, all the sponsor does is go up to the altar with the child, rest a hand on one shoulder, mumble some nonsense about rejecting Satan and then go out for the meal or drinks or whatever comes after.

The kid has a fun day, gets a bunch of presents, you and the parents have a fun day, some photographs get taken, no harm done.

How can you say no harm done. It gives the church more power. These repetitive rituals are its basis for indoctrination. If all atheists have your attitude then we are doing nothing to get rid of the cancerous church, and rescuing the deluded from its nonsense.

Stargazer7

Hi OP. I'm just gonna give my 2 cents on your predicament as I'm not really sure which way to advise you on the whole thing. Apologies for the length of the post but maybe it'll give you a better insight into how the little one feels about the thing.

I was brought up a catholic in a not particularly religious family-mom is, dad is sort of and brother definitely isn't believing.

So as a kid and a teen I was pretty torn about the whole thing because as I started attending mass with my mum I found myself thinking-"hey, i'm not sure if I agree with everything that's being said here." Besides the faith and belief aspect of it, even as a kid, I just didn't like many of the churches teachings. When I reached confirmation age I was still pretty confused-in fact I was all the way up to college age. I think my brother influenced me a lot growing up, as I always wondered why he didn't say the prayers in mass and was generally quiet about the whole thing. He also fed my insatiable hunger at the time for popular science books, particulary on genetics and physics...and my first Dawkins book.

The point is, by the time I was confirmation age I took the thing quite seriously-and I disagreed with the emphasis on money and buying presents for the day. I was baffled by the cards from people I didn't know with money in them. I do remember, however, on the day feeling particularly "holy". I don't know what I was but I got sucked into the whole thing and it felt special. So what I'm saying is I think it depends on the child. How much is she questioning at this age? Does she want answers or at least a discussion on the thing. Because I always appreciated having my brother around to talk about it openly with me. No-one ever forced me to believe or not to believe but thankfully I got to hear about the latter's point of view which I decided was right for me-eventually:o

It used to always bug me as a child the amount of people that were clearly going to mass to, for as I see it, "buy" their way into heaven or social acceptance. I really tried as a teen to give it a go as I said it would be wrong to be a member of a church but not believe or not agree with it's teachings. So I did my best (to the point of taking the commandments so seriously that I stopped "taking the lords name in vain" and replacing it with silly sounding swear words.And I bought a bible but after several attempts at trying to read it I just gave up as I totally disagreed with so much of it. Thank the flying spagetti monster I gave that one up.:D Even hearing my mum complaining about how boring the priest was pIssed me off as I was thinking "hey, you're supposedly the holy one, aren't you supposed to accept the church and not bItch about it?" Though in fairness, she has a wonderful way of making it seem like the church's bigotry isn't a big deal or in some way isn't their fault.

Anyways, back to the point. Perhaps she hasn't thought about it. And seeing as her parents don't seem to be indoctrinating her to too much an extent (though making her go through the ceremony is sorta doing that) perhaps she'll end up like me, make up her own mind in her own time, regardless of how other people think she should live her life.

It's a big issue and I think too many people go the way of "ah sure it doesn't mean anything to me so I'll go through with it for X's sake" because that just indicates that you're ok with the whole thing and are almost actively encouraging it. I have felt the same in other cases with the exception of funerals as it is not the time or place to even think about stuff like that. It is a matter of closure, routine and comfort-though the way the church control proceedings pisses me off as does the priest's false attempt at pretending to know the deceased (I'm aware that in some cases he may but in a lot he doesn't-at my grandfather's funeral the priest kept calling my grandmother by my mom's name and it was so upsetting).

Maybe ask the girl how she feels and why she asked you to be her godfather. Just be open and honest with her.

Hope I didn't bore you to death!

Ickle Magoo

allisbleak wrote: »

How can you say no harm done. It gives the church more power. These repetitive rituals are its basis for indoctrination. If all atheists have your attitude then we are doing nothing to get rid of the cancerous church, and rescuing the deluded from its nonsense.

It really doesn't give the church MORE power. I presume the confirmation would go ahead anyway. Even if every atheist in Ireland today refused from this day forth to partake of religious ceremonies it would barely make a dent in the overall numbers taking place, change has to come from within.

The OP refusing to be his nieces sponsor having already agreed to be her godfather, while I understand the reasoning, is just a bit pointless and isn't really of benefit to anyone bar the OP. I think the they could feel worse for refusing to be the nieces sponsor than they'd feel just going through the motions for her. Maybe try to gauge how she'd feel about you saying no?

Antbert

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The OP refusing to be his nieces sponsor having already agreed to be her godfather, while I understand the reasoning, is just a bit pointless and isn't really of benefit to anyone bar the OP. I think the they could feel worse for refusing to be the nieces sponsor than they'd feel just going through the motions for her. Maybe try to gauge how she'd feel about you saying no?

See I thought it was a bit different because he'd already agreed to be her godfather, but then that is a bit like saying you're not allowed to change your mind.

I'm not massively overzealous on the issue, but I do have a kind of "on principle it's a bad thing" feeling at the back of mind...

allisbleak

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It really doesn't give the church MORE power. I presume the confirmation would go ahead anyway. Even if every atheist in Ireland today refused from this day forth to partake of religious ceremonies it would barely make a dent in the overall numbers taking place, change has to come from within.

The OP refusing to be his nieces sponsor having already agreed to be her godfather, while I understand the reasoning, is just a bit pointless and isn't really of benefit to anyone bar the OP. I think the they could feel worse for refusing to be the nieces sponsor than they'd feel just going through the motions for her. Maybe try to gauge how she'd feel about you saying no?

I disagree. OP stick with what you believe, make sure you tell the family why and maybe you will open a few eyes, most probably people will just get annoyed with you and your l"lack of respect for the occasion", but ignore them, they are delusional not you.

THE Catholic Church, the best at what it does in so many areas.

No 1. (largest paedophile network in the world)
No 1. (largest and most valuable art collection in the world)
No 1. (Vatican, largest private state in the world)
No 1. (stealing children and selling them to the highest bidder)
No 1. (getting away with murder)

Ickle Magoo

Antbert wrote: »

See I thought it was a bit different because he'd already agreed to be her godfather, but then that is a bit like saying you're not allowed to change your mind.

I'm not massively overzealous on the issue, but I do have a kind of "on principle it's a bad thing" feeling at the back of mind...

Yeah, I agree and I get that feeling too. I just tried putting myself in the OP's position and despite having a lot of reservations, I think what would swing it for me would be how my niece would feel. So, I think the OP's first port of call is his niece. If she doesn't really care one way or the other then bowing out is no biggy, if she does care then knowing she is upset and refusing to do it anyway because of a point of principle is his his call, I guess.

Antbert

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yeah, I agree and I get that feeling too. I just tried putting myself in the OP's position and despite having a lot of reservations, I think what would swing it for me would be how my niece would feel. So, I think the OP's first port of call is his niece. If she doesn't really care one way or the other then bowing out is no biggy, if she does care then knowing she is upset and refusing to do it anyway because of a point of principle is his his call, I guess.

I think we're in agreement. Mostly.

Except I'd probably be slightly less humouring than you. I think. Maybe.

Daftendirekt

allisbleak wrote: »

How can you say no harm done. It gives the church more power. These repetitive rituals are its basis for indoctrination. If all atheists have your attitude then we are doing nothing to get rid of the cancerous church, and rescuing the deluded from its nonsense.

Oh please. The confirmation will go ahead with or without the OP. He won't be striking a blow for secularism by letting down his niece, he'll just be letting down his niece.

Also, no atheists are under any obligation to try and get rid of the church or 'rescue' anybody. Freedom of religion and all that.

robindch

allisbleak wrote: »

THE Catholic Church, the best at what it does in so many areas. [...] No 1. (largest paedophile network in the world)

Just FYI allisbleak -- while you're welcome to post your views here (though I suspect that nobody shares them), we don't need off-topic rants, especially if they're copied verbatim to other threads.

thanks.