who should replace Rafa?

Mr Alan

£19,050,000 this season.

£45,900,000 last season.

-£1.25m the season before.

=63.7m.

Mr Alan

true.

lets take the spend talk to the relevant thread.

The Muppet

daithijjj wrote: »

I was kinda liking reading this thread until 'spends' came into it. Pretty sure the jist of the OP was to avoid such chatter.

I only responded to false claims, I understand that the majority are tired of it at this stage but it's not right to leave false claims uncorrected IMO.

<Edit> Just saw mr als post. I,m happy to do that.</Edit>

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

that soccer base site is a farce, doesnt even list Torres as a purchase. i must have dreamt that :rolleyes:

He's in their 06/07 page.


The racing post in the Uk own that site afaik.

JPA

soccerbase.com is rubbish. If a fee is undisclosed they just say signed and have no fee.

Fromvert

**** me more transfer fee talk. Is your head not melted yet from discussing it.


With the money we would have to pay Rafa it would be stupid to sack him even if G and H wanted to. I can't see Rafa walking and I don't want him to.

Only managers I would take (very unrealistic)

Fergie
Wenger
Jose
Capello
Hiddink
Steve Bruce
Martin Jol (maybe) (probably the most realistic)

Mr Alan

Steve Bruce or Martin Jol?!?!??!?!?

flahavaj

What would you say to Redknapp Alan?

Mr Alan

he's not the same calibre as Rafa to be honest, not near, he'd wanna consistantly break into the top 4 year on year before even thinking about it.

Headshot

I got a good one for ya Alan

del Bosque

JPA

Mr Alan wrote: »

he's not the same calibre as Rafa to be honest, not near, he'd wanna consistantly break into the top 4 year on year before even thinking about it.

He'd want to be breaking into the top 4 year on year at SPURS before you even THINK about it? Sure if he could do that he might as well stay there.

Mr Alan

i'd view that as the criteria for any manager coming to Liverpool.

they have to be near able to assure top 4, the way the loans etc are structured at our club means it'd be near catastrophic if we didn't make it.

JPA

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd view that as the criteria for any manager coming to Liverpool.

they have to be near able to assure top 4, the way the loans etc are structured at our club means it'd be near catastrophic if we didn't make it.

Ya but he's at Spurs? How is he going to achieve that? That's completely unrealistic, there is no manager like that in the League, (That Liverpool could get). Anyway Redknapp is too old.

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd view that as the criteria for any manager coming to Liverpool.

they have to be near able to assure top 4, the way the loans etc are structured at our club means it'd be near catastrophic if we didn't make it.

I think Harry would comfortably get ye top 4. And no better man to sniff out a bargain in the transfer, such as Kranjcar for 3 million (would have been a fantastic signing for ye at that price btw).

JPA

Off Topic but if Harry took over my club (Villa), I'd give up football.

Mr Alan

hence the reason the idea of replacing him with the likes of Bruce, Redknapp etc is crazy imo.

they're not near the required level yet.

Mr Alan

flahavaj wrote: »

I think Harry would comfortably get ye top 4. And no better man to sniff out a bargain in the transfer, such as Kranjcar for 3 million (would have been a fantastic signing for ye at that price btw).

again, we didnt have 3m.

niko only became available at the end of the window when we were out of money & pompey were trying to get cash to stay afloat.

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

again, we didnt have 3m.

niko only became available at the end of the window when we were out of money & pompey were trying to get cash to stay afloat.

Oh I know that, but just a sample of the type of thing hes done repeatedly over the years.

Mr Alan

again though, Rafa has been known to pick up a bargain or two!

Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Insua
Aurelio
Benayoun

_blank_

Headshot wrote: »

I got a good one for ya Alan

del Bosque

Post 42 Dr. Slow

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

again though, Rafa has been known to pick up a bargain or two!

Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Insua
Aurelio
Benayoun

This thread is about Rafa's replacement though, not Rafa.

Mr Alan

re: Del Bosque, presume he is gonna be the manager of spain for the forseeable future

_blank_

Mr Alan wrote: »

re: Del Bosque, presume he is gonna be the manager of spain for the forseeable future

He could be tempted to mini-Spain though.

Would you rate him as a potential Rafa replacement?

Mr Alan

is he was available now, and Rafa was to walk, then yea....again though, really don't think we could afford him.

therecklessone

Pighead wrote: »

Think you've got dizzy with all the spinning buddy.

http://www.soccerbase.com/transfers_by_team.sd?teamid=154

Looks like a negative net spend to Pighead.

The Muppet wrote: »

No it doesnt

Players purchased 875000
Players sold 1000000

http://www.soccerbase.com/transfers_by_team.sd?teamid=154



Surprised you though I'd make such a mistake.

Signed:

Nigel Reo-Coker West Ham £ 7500000 05-07-2007

Sold:

Gavin McCann Bolton £ 1000000 08-06-2007
Aaron Hughes Fulham £ 1000000 27-06-2007
Robert Olejnik Falkirk Free 01-07-2007
Steve Davis Fulham Signed 05-07-2007

The BBC says Davis went for "around" £4m, I make that a £1.5m gain, which pushes him just into the realm of positive spend.

Schoolboys...;)

Pighead

therecklessone wrote: »

Signed:

Nigel Reo-Coker West Ham £ 7500000 05-07-2007

Sold:

Gavin McCann Bolton £ 1000000 08-06-2007
Aaron Hughes Fulham £ 1000000 27-06-2007
Robert Olejnik Falkirk Free 01-07-2007
Steve Davis Fulham Signed 05-07-2007

The BBC says Davis went for "around" £4m, I make that a £1.5m gain, which pushes him just into the realm of positive spend.

Schoolboys...;)

Terrible news for you therecklessone but you've made a bit of a dogs dinner of your figures! You've neglected to mention any of the below purchases!

Marlon Harewood West Ham £ 4000000 17-07-2007
Zat Knight Fulham £ 3500000 29-08-2007
Moustapha Salifou Stade Brest Nominal 31-08-2007
Wayne Routledge Tottenham £ 1250000 30-01-2008

Lee Hendrie Sheff Utd Free 19-07-2007
Liam Ridgewell Birmingham £ 2000000 03-08-2007
Gary Cahill Bolton £ 5000000 30-01-2008
Luke Moore West Brom £ 3000000 28-05-2008

Think you'll find the above will ensure that yes indeed O'Neill did have a negative spend in 07/08.

If Pighead's a schoolboy you must be still in the creche!;)

Fromvert

Mr Alan wrote: »

Steve Bruce or Martin Jol?!?!??!?!?

Steve Bruce is a fantastic manger and will be a top manager in time.
Martin Jol, well that would be the level we would have to look at money wise if Rafa was to leave.

el dude

Embarrassment of a thread. Let's wait until he's gone eh?

flanzer

Oh Kenny Kenny... Kenny Kenny Kenny Kenny Cunn-ing-ham Dalglish

Killme00

If Rafa did go , Liverpool would also lose Mascherano, Reina and Torres (regardless of what Mr Alan's sig says)

gosplan

Redknapp?

Are people seriously having a laugh with this.

Replace Rafa with Redknapp??

Redknapp - purchased virtually an entire team wherever he went (and another if he happened to go there again) and for what? Finished 8th one year, won an FA cup when he had the luck to manage the only premiership team left in the semi-final stages. Then promptly jumped ship for Tottenham.

For me, Redknapp is the very definition of a chequebook manager - Buy players with more ability than the lower teams to ensure you beat them and then you'll finish up the table a bit - and really that's all he's ever done.

Guarantee he won't break top four with Spurs.

Plus he's got a twitch.

Zatman

The best manager for Liverpool is based in the city but i dont think Moyes would switch across the city

therecklessone

Pighead wrote: »

Terrible news for you therecklessone but you've made a bit of a dogs dinner of your figures! You've neglected to mention any of the below purchases!

Marlon Harewood West Ham £ 4000000 17-07-2007
Zat Knight Fulham £ 3500000 29-08-2007
Moustapha Salifou Stade Brest Nominal 31-08-2007
Wayne Routledge Tottenham £ 1250000 30-01-2008

Lee Hendrie Sheff Utd Free 19-07-2007
Liam Ridgewell Birmingham £ 2000000 03-08-2007
Gary Cahill Bolton £ 5000000 30-01-2008
Luke Moore West Brom £ 3000000 28-05-2008

Think you'll find the above will ensure that yes indeed O'Neill did have a negative spend in 07/08.

If Pighead's a schoolboy you must be still in the creche!;)

Tut tut Pighead.

Time for maths class methinks...

My figures indicate [£1m+£1m+£4m]-£7.5m = -£1.5m

Your figures indicate [£5m+£3m+£2m]-[£4m+£3.5m+1.25m] = +£1.25m

Which suggests a net loss of £0.25m for season 2007/08.

But wait for it!!! Luke Moore was signed at the end of May 2008, after season 2007/08, so by rights his purchase should only be considered for season 2008/09. That would put the net loss at £3.25m.

For the avoidance of doubt, that means he spent £3.25m more than he recouped through sales for that season.

QED.

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

o neill spent just less than 65m (net) in the last 3 seasons.

£91.9m net since he took over villa

The Rooster

Mr Alan wrote: »

hasn't managed in 10 years & has always been a huge backer of Rafa.

i'd imagine if Rafa left, Kenny would be leaving too.

A huge backer publicly - of course he is. Dalglish never says anything negative about the club, and now that he's employed by them he's going to be positive about everything.

In the unlikely event of Benitez leaving mid-season, its a racing certainty that Dalglish would be placed in temporary charge, probably until the summer when a permanent replacement would be found.

10 years out of management is not helpful, but its not like he's been out of the game for any of that time, he's always been an attender at matches and I'm sure, being the clever guy he is, he's keeping up to date with developments in all areas of the game.

daveyboy_1ie

Mr Alan wrote: »

Mourinho; wouldn't want the job

Shocked at that statement Alan, and as I said I support United. 'Pool are a MASSIVE club, bigger than Inter and Jose is already a rich man so money won't be the issue. I think people are honeslty deluded saying noone will want to go to a club like 'pool, wages are also very nice compartively to rest of Europe.

There are plenty of people who would take over the club and only because of the clubs reluctance to promote outsude the 'boot club' in previous years has there been any issue with foreign managers. After all managers will find taking on a massive club with fcuk all to show for it over the last few years (thus no pressure) easier than taking over a club like United which are only slightly bigger but have had so much success than anything else but instant success will be seen as a failure.

Boggles

If Rafa was to walk which he has a history of. Whoever takes over will have to have a fire sale to get rid of the dross, not an easy thing to do in a world cup year, where players values are normally over inflated.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

If Rafa was to walk which he has a history of. Whoever takes over will have to have a fire sale to get rid of the dross, not an easy thing to do in a world cup year, where players values are normally over inflated.

Not really - Voronin, maybe Babel and a couple of others. It's filling in the gaps in the squad that needs to be a priority, not creating more.

The Muppet

therecklessone wrote: »

But wait for it!!! Luke Moore was signed at the end of May 2008, after season 2007/08, so by rights his purchase should only be considered for season 2008/09. That would put the net loss at £3.25m.

For the avoidance of doubt, that means he spent £3.25m more than he recouped through sales for that season.

QED.

The OP said years not seasons, You said soccerbase proved me wrong, which it didn't, thats all pretty pedantic TBH. The point that was being debated was the comment Re Matin O Neill having a blank check for the last three years which is clearly wrong.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

The OP said years not seasons, You said soccerbase proved me wrong, which it didn't, thats all pretty pedantic TBH. The point that was being debated was the comment Re Matin O Neill having a blank check for the last three years is clearly wrong.

O’Neill has spent more NET in his 4 years or so at Villa than Rafa has in 6 at Anfield.

Not a blank chequebook, but he did spend 50million last summer to take Villa from 6th to 6th.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

O’Neill has spent more NET in his 4 years or so at Villa than Rafa has in 6 at Anfield.

I dont think thats right, Theres not much in it though. What source are you using for those figures?

Going back to the original point, if theres only a couple of million either way between them it can't be right to say one manager had a blank checkbook while the other didn't, can it?

whatawaster wrote: »

Not a blank chequebook, but he did spend 50million last summer to take Villa from 6th to 6th.

The season may not finish that way.

Headshot

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/oct/21/rafael-benitez-10-mistakes-liverpool

Rafael Benítez: 10 mistakes that have cost Liverpool

This summer's transfer strategy

Rafael Benítez has purposely avoided conflict with Liverpool's owners, George Gillett and Tom Hicks, this season but there are signs diplomacy over their budget restrictions is beginning to wane as pressure mounts. "We signed three players and we wanted four," he said before Lyon. The fourth, it is safe to assume, was a forward. Not signing quality cover for Fernando Torres, and being so short of strikers that David Ngog started the critical game against the French and Andriy Voronin was reluctantly brought back from loan at Hertha Berlin, is proving catastrophic


Handling senior players

It is an exaggeration to say Benítez is a completely cold fish with players; sometimes he offers congratulations before pointing out their tactical failings. Even in Istanbul. That detachment is viewed as a positive when results go well, but presented as a weakness when they don't. A request that "senior players take the responsibility and take us forward" after defeat to Aston Villa did not sit well with its intended targets. Outside the dressing room, however, few dispute that Benítez was right


Trusting the owners

Protracted contract negotiations concluded in March with Benítez in control of transfer policy, the youth set-up and being promised around £20m to spend this summer above whatever he raised through sales. Hicks and Gillett had sold their master tactician a dummy. As summer progressed it materialised that the improved contracts given to Steven Gerrard, Torres, Dirk Kuyt, Daniel Agger, Yossi Benayoun and José Reina were coming out of Benítez's transfer budget. Yet another reason for the Spaniard to rue the day David Moores accepted the Americans' higher bid for his majority shareholding


Poor signings

While Benítez has been restrained on some transfers – such as when he discovered he had less than £2m for a new central defender late this summer, hence Sotirios Kyrgiakos – he has squandered plenty. Inexpensive errors such as Josemi, Antonio Núñez and Mauricio Pellegrino were excusable as he overhauled the squad and concentrated resources on Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano or Fernando Torres. But to be six seasons into the job and have a squad utterly reliant on two players, one inherited, while £11m Ryan Babel was left on the bench against Lyon is damning


Control of the youth academy

Martin Kelly was exceptional against Lyon on Tuesday, though not only in the sense of his impressive full debut. It is a rarity to witness a home-grown, local teenager being deemed worthy of consideration under Benítez and the dearth of talent coming through is why the Spaniard copied Arsène Wenger's global recruitment policy. The issue prompted a fallout with Steve Heighway, revered by Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher, but many would argue this summer's radical overhaul of the academy system was long overdue


Distracted by events beyond his control

Gérard Houllier's presence at Anfield on Tuesday served as warning of what can happen to Liverpool managers who lose sight of the bigger picture. Benítez was the refreshing antidote to the stale odour of Houllier's final years when he took charge in 2004. Out went a fixation with statistics or United's greater spending power as a means to defend poor performances and an obsession with ex-Liverpool players turned media pundits. That is creeping back


Too passive over international call-ups

The Liverpool manager frequently complains about international commitments and their repercussions but rarely prevents his players, even those carrying slight injuries, from joining their national teams. Unlike, for example, Manchester United, Liverpool players do not often develop sudden, mysterious problems ahead of an international week. Torres suffered three injuries with Spain last season that may have cost Liverpool the title. Spain and England had qualified for the World Cup before their recent qualifiers, but Gerrard and Torres travelled with slight injuries and returned far worse


The 'list of facts' against Ferguson

Few managers would dispute the truth in Benítez's accusations against "the Ayatollah" in January – just not in public – with the list representing years of simmering frustration and arguably extended by events at Old Trafford this season. It was also a deliberate tactical ploy by the Spaniard, designed to heighten pressure on United ahead of their home game with Chelsea and as Liverpool looked to extend their Premier League lead at Stoke. Results that weekend ensured it backfired badly and Benítez has been hostage to the outburst ever since


Xabi Alonso's transfer

Or, rather, dealing with it. Getting £30m for a player who wanted to join Real Madrid, double what Benítez had been hawking him around Europe for the previous summer following two mediocre campaigns by the Spanish midfielder, was decent business. Replacing him with Alberto Aquilani, an Italy international who may well re-energise Liverpool but has been injured since March, was a risk that has heightened with every defeat. Liverpool could not afford patience this season and Aquilani's absence, coupled with Javier Mascherano's poor form, has brought an overreliance on Lucas Leiva; not the disaster many claim but a squad player all the same


Taking on too many internal battles

It is over five years now of being frustrated with Liverpool's transfer dealings, waiting for new investment, being caught in the middle of a divided regime when it finally came, seeing his job offered to Jürgen Klinsmann, falling out with trusted lieutenant Pako Ayesterán, involved in an internal power struggle with former chief executive Rick Parry and all the while seeing United, Chelsea and now Manchester City improve relentlessly. Many scraps were unavoidable, many were self-inflicted, and it is not alarmist to suggest that Benítez is looking battle-weary

mink_man

john o shea!

Nalz

whatawaster wrote: »

Not a blank chequebook, but he did spend 50million last summer to take Villa from 6th to 6th.

In fairness, Mellberg and Laursen - big shoes to fill... and he got zero return on those. I'm sure he sold a few, maybe he didnt make money back, but he did have to build a team and if you lose you're first choice centre backs you'd know all about it. United without Vidic and Rio, Liverpool without Agger and Carragher etc...

mink_man wrote:

john O shea!

Tayto Crisps salt and vinegar!

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

I dont think thats right, Theres not much in it though. What source are you using for those figures?

Going back to the original point, if theres only a couple of million either way between them it can't be right to say one manager had a blank checkbook while the other didn't, can it?



The season may not finish that way.

Rafa’s I’ve gone over many, many times. His net spend is around 84 million.

For Martin O’Neill:

Season 2009/2010

In: Downing 12m, Delph 6m, Warnock 7m, Collins 5m, Dunne 5m – TOTAL 35M
Out: Barry 12m, Knight 4m - TOTAL 16m

NET +19m

Season 2008/2009

In: Davies 8m, Sidwell 5m, Friedel 2.5m, Shorey 4m, Young 5m, Cuellar 8m, Miller 12m, Guzan 0.5m, Heskey 3,5 – TOTAL 48.5M
Out: Maloney 2.5M - TOTAL 2.5M

NET +46M

Season 2007/2008

In: Marlon Harewood 4m, Knight 3.5, Routledge 1.5m TOTAL: 9M
Out: Ridgewell 2m, Cahill 5m, Moore 3m: TOTAL: 10M

NET -1M

Season 2006/2007

In: Petrov 6.5m, Young 9.75m, Maloney 1m, Reo Coker 7.5m TOTAL 24.75M
Out: Phillips 700K, Whiitingham 300K, McCann 1m, Hughes 1m TOTAL 3M

NET + 21.75M

TOTAL NET SPEND = ~ 85 Million
Over 4 seasons, so average per season is around 21m, compared to around 14m for Rafa.
If O’Neill hasn’t won the league in the next 2 years will he be getting the stick that Rafa is? Will people be calling for his head?

So why don’t I want Martin O’Neill to take over?
Because he’s nowhere near the manager Rafa is.
The 6th to 6th thing I was referring to was last season, which is over.

Boggles

This net spend bollix again.

The only thing it really proves is Rafa is fantastic at selling players, shít at buying them!!!

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

This net spend bollix again.

The only thing it really proves is Rafa is fantastic at selling players, shít at buying them!!!

Yeah Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Agger, Skrtel, Reina are all crap signings.

What it shows is the resources that the managers have at their disposal. You ignore it, as do many others because it doesn’t fit your agenda here, whatever that may be.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Yeah Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Kuyt, Agger, Skrtel, Reina are all crap signings.

What it shows is the resources that the managers have at their disposal. You ignore it, as do many others because it doesn’t fit your agenda here, whatever that may be.

Now list the 50 shít ones.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Now list the 50 shít ones.

In his first season 04/05 – he signed Xabi Alonso, Luis Garcia

05/06 – he signed Reina, Sissoko, Crouch and Agger

06/07 – Aurelio, Kuyt, Arbeloa and Mascherano

07/08 – Torres, Benayoun, Insua and Skrtel

08/09 – Cavalieri, Riera

09/10 – Johnson, Aquilani



The conclusion I’d draw is that year on year he’s added players, usually a few every summer who become vital parts of the team and squad (some of these, unfortunately, aren’t here anymore)
He’s also bought some very average, and some downright bad players (as all managers have) because we had such a weak, thin squad and limited resources that he was forced to take punts on players he wasn’t sure about.
Example: we wouldn’t fork out a couple of million for Alves, so we get Pennant instead eventually (buying nobody and saving the money wasn’t really an option, unfortunately as our CL place was a necessity each year).
Rafa has made plenty of transfer mistakes. But on the whole I think he’s done well.
To have spent a NET of 83 million on players with a value now FAR in excess of that shows SOME shrewdness in the transfer market.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

The 6th to 6th thing I was referring to was last season, which is over.

My Bad, it's only fair to judge this season really as players need time to settle.

I'm not going into the figures here (wrong thread), There's little difference between Rafa and Mon Budgets.