who should replace Rafa?

flahavaj

Didn't everton have 11 players out last night or something ridiculous like that? Imagine the scutter that'd be in the Liverpool line-up with 11 players out.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

how'd Dignity Dave get on last night?

you can't base his tenure as manager on one result Al, come on.

it was with an injury ravaged team (worse than our injury list by far), against a team, away from home, who have been scoring for fun.

i can't believe i'm defending an Everton manager :pac:

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

tbf.....

Torres,Gerrard,Aquilani,Johnson?

who we have been told so many times you beat utd last season without

premierstone

Mr Alan wrote: »

to suggest that O'Neills record at Leicster & Celtic trumps Rafas at Valencia & Liverpool is truely truely truely truely laughable..

Yes it is if one is incapable of thinking beyond stats and bare trophies and takes no consideration into resources available, and squads inherited.

Do you genuinely believe Rafa would be capable of getting Leicster into the top 6 or even getting Celtic to a UEFA cup final where they were only controversially beaten by a team that went on to win the European Cup the following season.

Mr Alan

i'm not basing it on last night only, just pointing out his achievements in Europe have been very poor to date, he'll need to improve in that before he can be considered for a top job imo.

re:O'Neill -vs- Rafa, i'll bow out of that conversation premierstone, you ain't gonna change your tune, but lets just say i think you'll find you are in a minority to think that O'Neill is a better manager than Benitez.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm not basing it on last night only, just pointing out his achievements in Europe have been very poor to date, he'll need to improve in that before he can be considered for a top job imo.

good point tbf.

i still think he'd be worth a go, but European pedigree is definitely ideal for a top, top job.

leninbenjamin

This thread makes for a crazy read. Soccer forum gold

Anywho, my €1.33:

There are very few in England at the moment who one would be confident enough could make the step up to a side with ambitions of winning the league.

of the stronger British managers at the moment I'd narrow it down to:
Bruce
Moyes
Redknapp
O'Neill

Redknapp and O'Neill can be ruled out almost immediately imo. Redknapp is too much a wheeler dealer, his out look tends to be too shot termist imo to win a league. O'Neill would be a bit better in this regard, but i just think his buys suggest he can't assemble a team to win something himself. Too many mediocre buys imo considering the resources he's had at Villa.

Moyes... I dunno. A manager of ups and downs. Has done wonders at times with everton on a shoestring, but then fails to really capitalize on it. I just don't think he has what it takes.

Bruce, a lot will depend on how his season runs out. He's always been fantastic in the transfer market compared to his peers, able to get great performances out of his players and has been very unfortunate at times to have his best players sold all the time. But he's still too much of a gamble at the moment. He needs to prove he can stabilise this current Sunderland team.

So what have I proved with this post? Nothing, other than to suggest Liverpool would be better off sticking onto Rafa. They haven't many options at home, and the managers you'd fancy to make the transition from the continent would be too pricey imo.

Mancini is a strong possibility, and no doubt a good manager, but I just don't fancy him to adapt quick enough. His teams have always done well domestically, but he's been relatively weak in recent times in competing with more intensive British teams imo. I just think he's far too Italian in style at the moment to do well in the Premier League, and you'd be back to square one.

If Benetiz walked tomorrow though, it's a slightly different scenario. I'd actually consider getting in Hodgson. He's a good manager, good at consolidating the resources at his disposal and not too bad in the transfer market. I don't think he'd win a league, but he might be the man to keep Pool ticking over until their finances stabilise. And he's with Fulham so he can't be too expensive to buy out.

whatawaster

premierstone wrote: »

Yes it is if one is incapable of thinking beyond stats and bare trophies and takes no consideration into resources available, and squads inherited.

Do you genuinely believe Rafa would be capable of getting Leicster into the top 6 or even getting Celtic to a UEFA cup final where they were only controversially beaten by a team that went on to win the European Cup the following season.

1. Resources available – O’Neill has spent an average of 21m a season at Villa, Rafa 14m a season at Liverpool.
2. Yes, Rafa inherited a better squad than O’Neill but it was still a very poor squad. One that would struggle to make the top 6 in todays PL
3. Yes I believe Rafa could achieve those things.
4. Looking closer at the squads they inherited and how they changed them:

Aston Villa – in the three years prior to O’Neill taking over they averaged 48 PL points
- in O’Neill’s 3 years they have averaged 57 points.
- If you exclude O’Neill’s first year out of fairness (rebuilding) he’s averaged 61 points.

Liverpool – in the 5 years prior to Rafa when Houllier was manager Liverpool averaged 67 PL points
- Under Rafa in 5 years they have averaged 74 PL points.
- If you exclude Rafa’s first season out of fairness (rebuilding) they’ve averaged 78 points

Now O’Neill has had less time. But he’s had more money. And it’s far easier to jump from the 40 point region to the 50s and 60s, than from the 60 point region to 70s and 80s.

The 78 points that Rafa has averaged in the last 4 years was enough to win the league for Wenger in his first season BTW

premierstone

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'm not basing it on last night only, just pointing out his achievements in Europe have been very poor to date, he'll need to improve in that before he can be considered for a top job imo.

re:O'Neill -vs- Rafa, i'll bow out of that conversation premierstone, you ain't gonna change your tune, but lets just say i think you'll find you are in a minority to think that O'Neill is a better manager than Benitez.

Never said that in fairness Alan, I merely pointed out that the poster who claimed that they were on complettely different levels was wide of the mark and I stand by that

CoachBoone

IF at the end of next season Rafa goes, once the world cup is over, could Hiddink be a genuine contender?

premierstone

whatawaster wrote: »

1. Resources available – O’Neill has spent an average of 21m a season at Villa, Rafa 14m a season at Liverpool.
2. Yes, Rafa inherited a better squad than O’Neill but it was still a very poor squad. One that would struggle to make the top 6 in todays PL
3. Yes I believe Rafa could achieve those things.
4. Looking closer at the squads they inherited and how they changed them:

Aston Villa – in the three years prior to O’Neill taking over they averaged 48 PL points
- in O’Neill’s 3 years they have averaged 57 points.
- If you exclude O’Neill’s first year out of fairness (rebuilding) he’s averaged 61 points.

Liverpool – in the 5 years prior to Rafa when Houllier was manager Liverpool averaged 67 PL points
- Under Rafa in 5 years they have averaged 74 PL points.
- If you exclude Rafa’s first season out of fairness (rebuilding) they’ve averaged 78 points

Now O’Neill has had less time. But he’s had more money. And it’s far easier to jump from the 40 point region to the 50s and 60s, than from the 60 point region to 70s and 80s.

The 78 points that Rafa has averaged in the last 4 years was enough to win the league for Wenger in his first season BTW

Martin O'Neill has managed more than Aston Villa, I was referring to he's achievements with both Leicster and Celtic but you knew that anyway :rolleyes:

JPA

Can I just add that wages are being completely ignored in this thread.
I don't think Villa have a player on over 60k a week max.



Also, Liverpool and Villa are being compared as equals in this thread,even as a Villa fan I wouldn't do that.

Mr Alan

premierstone wrote: »

marks O'Neill as an equal if not better manager than Rafa and imo better.

premierstone wrote: »

Never said that in fairness Alan

?????

JPA, i ain't ignoring wages, i've already said that another reason Rafa has been hampered is his inability to offer top wages to squad players.

5 highest wage bill in the league. 5th most expensive squad. yet expectations far above that.

whatawaster

premierstone wrote: »

Martin O'Neill has managed more than Aston Villa, I was referring to he's achievements with both Leicster and Celtic but you knew that anyway :rolleyes:

Ok and i'm discounting Rafa's far superior achievements at Valencia and you'd do well to keep me doing so.

What do you think of the figures i gave comparing his time at Villa with Rafa's at Liverpool. After all, it's the biggest English job he's had and his most recent, so there they are most comparable.

builttospill

leninbenjamin wrote: »

O'Neill would be a bit better in this regard, but i just think his buys suggest he can't assemble a team to win something himself. Too many mediocre buys imo considering the resources he's had at Villa.

You aren't looking at the bigger picture. Some of Villa's players and signings are regarded as mediocre and O'Neill can't assemble a team that can win something cos they aren't one of the traditional top 4 clubs and they won't be for a long time if ever. What world class players would want to go to Villa or indeed Sunderland? Nobody, cos players will always want to go to the bigger clubs. This is the status quo so the lesser teams, even though they might have millions to spend, will always be scraping the barrel when it comes to spectacular signings. Now Man City are coming out of this hole but their spending is just ridiculous. Villa aren't in the same league. I don't get this whole "O'Neill should be doing better" spiel. How? I'm not a Villa fan by the way.

I think O'Neill's track record with lesser teams has been brilliant and if he walked into one of the big 4 clubs he would easily win trophies.

Bubs101

leninbenjamin wrote: »

This thread makes for a crazy read. Soccer forum gold

Anywho, my €1.33:

There are very few in England at the moment who one would be confident enough could make the step up to a side with ambitions of winning the league.

of the stronger British managers at the moment I'd narrow it down to:
Bruce
Moyes
Redknapp
O'Neill

Redknapp and O'Neill can be ruled out almost immediately imo. Redknapp is too much a wheeler dealer, his out look tends to be too shot termist imo to win a league. O'Neill would be a bit better in this regard, but i just think his buys suggest he can't assemble a team to win something himself. Too many mediocre buys imo considering the resources he's had at Villa.

Moyes... I dunno. A manager of ups and downs. Has done wonders at times with everton on a shoestring, but then fails to really capitalize on it. I just don't think he has what it takes.

Bruce, a lot will depend on how his season runs out. He's always been fantastic in the transfer market compared to his peers, able to get great performances out of his players and has been very unfortunate at times to have his best players sold all the time. But he's still too much of a gamble at the moment. He needs to prove he can stabilise this current Sunderland team.

So what have I proved with this post? Nothing, other than to suggest Liverpool would be better off sticking onto Rafa. They haven't many options at home, and the managers you'd fancy to make the transition from the continent would be too pricey imo.

Mancini is a strong possibility, and no doubt a good manager, but I just don't fancy him to adapt quick enough. His teams have always done well domestically, but he's been relatively weak in recent times in competing with more intensive British teams imo. I just think he's far too Italian in style at the moment to do well in the Premier League, and you'd be back to square one.

If Benetiz walked tomorrow though, it's a slightly different scenario. I'd actually consider getting in Hodgson. He's a good manager, good at consolidating the resources at his disposal and not too bad in the transfer market. I don't think he'd win a league, but he might be the man to keep Pool ticking over until their finances stabilise. And he's with Fulham so he can't be too expensive to buy out.

Yeah but surely Liverpool can't get a manager under contract. if they can't afford any players then how can they shell out for a manager

Bounty Hunter

JPA wrote: »

Can I just add that wages are being completely ignored in this thread.
I don't think Villa have a player on over 60k a week max.



Also, Liverpool and Villa are being compared as equals in this thread,even as a Villa fan I wouldn't do that.

QFT

tbh if Rafa was sacked/walked tommorow i dont think Moyes or O'Neil would take the job would it be offered to them. Who would be a viable candidate that Liverpool fans would accept?

I would suggest Hodgson, iirc his contract with Fulham only runs till the end of this season atm

leninbenjamin

builttospill wrote: »

I think O'Neill's track record with lesser teams has been brilliant and if he walked into one of the big 4 clubs he would easily win trophies.

They're are all fair points. It's not though that I think he isn't doing a good job with Villa, I actually think he's doing very well with them and has added great stability to them.

But the attitude that he can't lure top players because of the status of the club is wrong (to a degree). Now I am not talking about the likes of Ronaldo/Robinho here, but Bruce was able to lure Valencia and Palacios to Wigan before. Redknapp has managed to wonders at Portsmouth as well. O'Neill really doesn't look beyond the box, and his scouting setup seems to be lacking. He should be doing better in this regard imo.

Bubs101 wrote: »

Yeah but surely Liverpool can't get a manager under contract. if they can't afford any players then how can they shell out for a manager

Indeed. I was looking more towards the long term replacement. But as i said initially, if Rafa walks tomorrow Hodgson might be cheap enough to buy out. Fulham don't pay half as much as other clubs iirc.

curry-muff

CoachBoone wrote: »

IF at the end of next season Rafa goes, once the world cup is over, could Hiddink be a genuine contender?

Hiidink did say that he would love to return to the premiership to manage a different team than chelsea at some stage.

Mr Alan

how much is Aston Villas wage bill?

i'd imagine any difference between it & Liverpools would be not that much.

Bounty Hunter

Mr Alan wrote: »

how much is Aston Villas wage bill?

i'd imagine any difference between it & Liverpools would be not that much.

according to this article (which if im totally honest i only found after a 20second google) its £50.4m as apposed to Liverpools which in 2007 according to this article was £69m and i can only imagine its increased in size since then.



*yes both articles could be complete bollix

Mr Alan

i'd actually be of the opinion that Liverpools wage bill has come down in the last couple of years.

kida

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd actually be of the opinion that Liverpools wage bill has come down in the last couple of years.

despite the fact your top earners got increases this summer

premierstone

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd actually be of the opinion that Liverpools wage bill has come down in the last couple of years.

Performance related bonuses sure have anyway

Bounty Hunter

well if those figures are even kinda acurrate there would still be around a 20m difference in the wage bill per year and that is a huge amount of money especially when transfer spending is being compared, but like i said i see no way where MON would replace rafa in the near future anyway so its all kinda moot. Although again I dont see anyone replacing him because i dont expect him to walk (even if he has prior exp of that route) nor fired (cos they cant afford the compo) but if he was replaced id suggest Hodgson as i think he only have several months on his Fulham contract is a top manager with european, international and premiership experience who probably would not have wage demands anywhere near the level of most managers who would be considerd on Liverpools level.

orourkeda

CoachBoone wrote: »

IF at the end of next season Rafa goes, once the world cup is over, could Hiddink be a genuine contender?

Dont flatter yourself.

Guus Hiddink is far too good for Liverpool.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd actually be of the opinion that Liverpools wage bill has come down in the last couple of years.

Nah went up 15% or theres abouts. Mainly because of Rafa, Gerrard, Torres, etc.

orourkeda

Liverpool might do well starting their search for any new manager here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nVrf9YP2-s4/SD2ArRzsHoI/AAAAAAAAAwo/Onztwdhz1hE/s400/front.jpg

whatawaster

orourkeda wrote: »

Liverpool might do well starting their search for any new manager here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nVrf9YP2-s4/SD2ArRzsHoI/AAAAAAAAAwo/Onztwdhz1hE/s400/front.jpg

whatawaster

orourkeda wrote: »

Dont flatter yourself.

Guus Hiddink is far too good for Liverpool.

To be honest I don’t think there’s any manager out there who’s too good for one of the most successful teams in club football history, not to mention one of the most famous, well known and well supported clubs in the world.

builttospill

leninbenjamin wrote: »

They're are all fair points. It's not though that I think he isn't doing a good job with Villa, I actually think he's doing very well with them and has added great stability to them.

But the attitude that he can't lure top players because of the status of the club is wrong (to a degree). Now I am not talking about the likes of Ronaldo/Robinho here, but Bruce was able to lure Valencia and Palacios to Wigan before. Redknapp has managed to wonders at Portsmouth as well. O'Neill really doesn't look beyond the box, and his scouting setup seems to be lacking. He should be doing better in this regard imo.

It's not wrong. You're still missing the point. How did Wigan do with Palacios and Valencia? Sure they punched above their weight but they were still a mid-table team. Palacios and Valencia were unheard of before they came to Wigan. They do well at Wigan and then what happens-they are sold off to bigger clubs. This is what I'm talking about. If one of Villa's players is outstanding for a few seasons they will be snapped up by one of the bigger clubs! This shows that teams like Villa can't upset the status quo and will always struggle to break into the top 4. Look at Barry-Villa's best player when he was there; He nearly went to Liverpool and ended up going to City. Therefore Villa are doing well in my opinion to be where they are. Sure the club may make the odd dodgy signing but every club does. I think the squad they have now is pretty good.

And another thing-You say O'Neill's scouting system is lacking. Do you think it would be a problem getting top class players if he was at one of the top 4 clubs? If O'Neill's scouting system is lacking then Rafa must be getting Phil Babb and Razor Ruddock to hand pick some of his awful signings. Compare Dunne, Milner and Ashley Young to Skrtel, Riera and Babel!

orourkeda

whatawaster wrote: »

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/21102009/58/champions-league-liverpool-slump-lyon.html

Youre only as good as your last result.

orourkeda

whatawaster wrote: »

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/ole-gunner-solskjaer-european-champions-league-cup-final-1999_64660.jpg

orourkeda

whatawaster wrote: »

To be honest I don’t think there’s any manager out there who’s too good for one of the most successful teams in club football history, not to mention one of the most famous, well known and well supported clubs in the world.

Meanwhile back on planet earth........................

kryogen

iregk wrote: »

Yeah because bad managers with no tactics win 6 league titles of which 4 were in a row in two separate countries. 6 domestic cups, 1 UEFA Cup and 1 Champions League.



Yeah he is clearly rubbish isn't he? Tell me, if a bad manager clearly devoid of any tactical nous can win all that, how come your sitting on boards rather than standing at the top of the football world?

eh, you are seriously throwing Porto and Inter up there as great achievements? you would swear Porto had never won the league before he came! and lets forget the fact that Inter had won the league like 3 years in a row before he came, lots of work to do there wasnt there :rolleyes: maybe you can also forget that he is taking Inter backwards?

Chelsea? They have proved that regardless of the manager the squad guarantees they will at least challenge for major honours every season

I like the aggression you showed this morning, but maybe you should think before you spout?

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

Nah went up 15% or theres abouts. Mainly because of Rafa, Gerrard, Torres, etc.

anything to back this up with?

kida wrote: »

despite the fact your top earners got increases this summer

money wise, don't think there was that much of an increase, more than likely just to tie em into longer deals.

orourkeda wrote: »

Dont flatter yourself.

Guus Hiddink is far too good for Liverpool.

????? strange.

orourkeda wrote: »

Youre only as good as your last result.

em, no!?

Helix

flahavaj wrote: »

Didn't everton have 11 players out last night or something ridiculous like that? Imagine the scutter that'd be in the Liverpool line-up with 11 players out.

theyd probably manage to get the match called off

Helix

builttospill wrote: »

If he was to walk into a big club like Liverpool or United then I reckon he would be great

how long do you think the fans would stand for longball football before he was run out of the club?

d22ontour

JPA wrote: »

Can I just add that wages are being completely ignored in this thread.
I don't think Villa have a player on over 60k a week max.



Also, Liverpool and Villa are being compared as equals in this thread,even as a Villa fan I wouldn't do that.

Apprently The lure of signing for Liverpool re Torres is the same as signing Carew for Villa so their prices should be the same.Infact many posters here are comparing Villa/Pool gross/nett spends which is pretty pathethic considering both clubs standings/aspirations...Would Torres have signed for Rafa if he managed Villa ? Like fook he would.The lure of a top club will always outway the aspirations of a club trying to break into the elite.Comparing their nett spends is irrelevent.One is trying to maintain a top 4 place after spending huge amounts gross over the years.The other is trying to break into that elite without the lure of a former great club aura.

builttospill

Helix wrote: »

how long do you think the fans would stand for longball football before he was run out of the club?

Honestly if you're talking about Liverpool then I don't really subscribe to this notion. The only time I've seen Liverpool play really special football under Rafa was in the latter half of last season. Before that they were a long way off the likes of Arsenal and United in terms of excitement. They've always seemed to chug along and everyone knows that Rafa doesn't like buying flair players. He goes for hard working players like Kuyt who don't exactly light up the game. As Dunphy (I think it was him) pointed out, you wouldn't see a player like Deco at Liverpool (bearing in mind that he said this when deco was firing on all cylinders). Also I don't think it's fair to say that Villa play long ball football. I've been watching both teams this season and so far Villa have been playing the better football. Villa are a lesser team, Liverpool are supposed to be world beaters. When you add it all up it doesn't make for a promising future for Liverpool. This is what this thread is about.

Mr Alan

em, no its exactly NOT what this thread is about?

this thread is about possible replacements if Benitez leaves?!

maybe you should start a "regurgitated nonsense that dunphy has spouted" thread?
hard working players like Kuyt who wouldn't light up a game? jesus, must tell that to the likes of Torres,Riera,Benayoun,Johnson, who never light up any game :rolleyes:

monkey9

Jesus Al, i can't believe it's you who started this thread!!! :pac: :pac:

Who would i replace Rafa with? Guus Hiddink!! Could we afford him? Would he come? I don't know. But that would be my replacement.

Anyway, we can't afford to sack Rafa and he won't walk. And i don't want him to.

This is a sh!t period right now, but i trust Rafa to steer us through it!!

Mr Alan

i started it to prove a point, the people who were calling for Rafas head have yet to offer one viable replacement.

d22ontour

You made a thread knowing that no-one could actually be named as a posssible replacement unless you could name managers who could succeed without the need to waste money.

monkey9

d22ontour wrote: »

You made a thread knowing that no-one could actually be named as a posssible replacement unless you could name managers who could succeed without the need to waste money.

How has Rafa wasted money? Seriously, break it down for me!!!

And i want details. Considering who we are, what's expected, the finance of others, how has he wasted money??

dreamers75

monkey9 wrote: »

How has Rafa wasted money? Seriously, break it down for me!!!

And i want details. Considering who we are, what's expected, the finance of others, how has he wasted money??

he bought 80 odd players and has a squad of 26 players.


just a guess really but uh thats minus like 50 where are these 50 players gone

Mr Alan

wrong thread, plus you probably dont even realise the total players bought includes his restructuring of the academy purchasing around 30 or so players for that.

dreamers75

Mr Alan wrote: »

wrong thread, plus you probably dont even realise the total players bought includes his restructuring of the academy purchasing around 30 or so players for that.

Fairly sure that most of the 80 odd players were involved in the 1st team at some point.


Noone can save Liverpool only Rafa and Rafa with money and a satable working enviroment.

hes like a winning Wenger just without the support of the club.

builttospill

Mr Alan wrote: »

em, no its exactly NOT what this thread is about?

this thread is about possible replacements if Benitez leaves?!

maybe you should start a "regurgitated nonsense that dunphy has spouted" thread?
hard working players like Kuyt who wouldn't light up a game? jesus, must tell that to the likes of Torres,Riera,Benayoun,Johnson, who never light up any game :rolleyes:

Roll eyes at what exactly? What is it with you Liverpool fans? I don't even mind the club. I'm a Palace fan myself! The thread is about your club's future is it not? I said it doesn't make for a very promising future while I backed up my points from my previous posts about Martin O'Neill and Villa. So basically you didn't read between the lines and took offence to my wording cos I said something objective about your club. I thought that was the point of a thread like this or is it for biased Liverpool fans only? And then because I quote someone (yes Dunphy can chat an awful load of crap but I think that point about Deco is valid) you tell me that I should start a "regurgitated nonsense that dunphy has spouted" thread!!?? How very reactionary of you. The quote wasn't in any way an integral part of my post.

And as for Liverpool playing exciting football-Like I said, under Rafa the only time I have seen them play exciting football was in the latter half of last season. Being a Liverpool fan you obviously disagree so we'll just have to agree to disagree. If you think Kuyt and Riera are flair players who bring excitement to the game then there isn't much more I can say on the matter. Yes Kuyt is effective but excting he is not. By these standards and seeing as we are comparing Liverpool to Villa I'm sure you must also think that Heskey lights up the game? I mean Capello loves him! Ha. I'm off to the scratcher. Good luck on Sunday.

whatawaster

orourkeda wrote: »

http://www.mediastorehouse.com/image/ole-gunner-solskjaer-european-champions-league-cup-final-1999_64660.jpg

you're a Villa fan, no?

Routinely post pictures of opposing teams lifting trophies? Weird. and kinda pathetic

Unless . . . you weren't trying to wind me up were you?