Get Up Stand Up, the ICTU's half baked response to the upcoming PS Paycuts...

Diarmuid

Eileens wrote: »

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

The government is racking up huge deficits, companies are going bust, and tens of thousands of employees are being let go as part of a huge conspiracy to drive down wages. Right. :rolleyes:

herya

Eileens wrote: »

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

This has already happened and will continue to happen whether PS wages are slashed or not. But if they stay at such an elevated level they'll only contribute to bankrupting the country.

diverdriver

Eileens that's fantasy that keeps being trotted out by ICTU and others. Tax the rich. Well by all means except there are not enough rich people to raise the €4 billion.

The simple reality is that there isn't enough tax been generated to run the public service. So €400 million a week has to be borrowed just to pay the bills. Do you really think there are enough rich people to raise that much tax a week from them?

And it's only going to get worse as more and more private sector people lose their jobs and go on the dole.

At this point it really doesn't matter who caused it. Who cares who steered the ship into the iceberg. We either stop it sinking by everyone baling it out or most of us go down with the ship because there aren't enough lifeboats.

While you're slagging off big business, remember this; your job depends on it. All taxes come from the private sector, ALL of it.

As for cutting private sector pay, there is little scope for it. It was always lower than everyone thought. One of the real myths of the boom years was that private sector were on huge money. It was never true for the ordinary workers who worked long hours for low pay. I had ordinary jobs in mulitnationals for years. The most money I ever earned in a year was about €26K and that was for a 24/7 shift job, days and nights. The shift allowance brought it up. I received low payrises of the order of 2% because apparently I was at the top of my scale. My last job started at €360 a week in 2005. By the time I left I was on an incredible €450 a week. That for you info is €23400 pa. They were considered a good employer. Most employees had second jobs to make ends meet. This year I'll be lucky to take home €20k before tax because I'm self employed now. So when I hear unions and PS workers bleating about their low pay it makes my blood boil.

They don't know the meaning of the word.

This country is in deep, deep trouble but apparently many people still think they can sail along as if nothing needs to change. Two years from now, we'll be lucky if we aren't depending on aid from our EU partners to stop people starving in the streets.

eoinbn

Darragh, can you tell me what you think happens in a recession? Some numbers go up, some numbers go down but nothing bad happens and we all come out of it smelling of roses?

For God's sake cop on - the only reason the government, media and those rich right wing economists want to cut public sector wages is so that they can let employers in the private sector then cut wages there.

Employers in the private sector can do whatever they feel like, and right now they feel like moving out of Ireland because it's too expensive to do business here. They don't chase, or follow, public sector wages.

Darragh29

herya wrote: »

So you don't mind if people are let go - what about the repossessions you're so afraid of then? - but you do mind 5-10% cuts very much. I don't follow your logic, surely there will be repossessions guaranteed if you let them go.

Let me explain this because I can see the point you are making. At the end of the day, we need teachers, we need nurses, we need emergency service workers, we need vital public services. I believe people engaged by the state in the provision of those services should be renumerated in a way that is consistent with the provision of a decent standard of living. These people have decided to make a career out of serving the rest of us and I think they should be properly renumerated in line with their qualifications and experience, which allow them to serve us better.

Now what I'm looking at here in the public sector, I see a lot of waste, I see a lot of duplication of work, I see a lack of deployment of information technology that can cut down on admin work, I see a lack of flexibility...

Any jobs that are not involved in providing a service to the public, need to be taken out of the system. Then we need to find private sector jobs for these people. There is no point in cutting everyone's salary in the public sector and leaving the public sector unreformed and inefficient.

The only people working in the public sector should be those that are necessary to provide the necessary services to the public. Spin doctors, media consultants, career opportunists, unnecessary paper pushers, political advisors, politicians secretaries, should be rounded up in a van and dropped off at the nearest social welfare office.

I accept these people will end up out of work and maybe facing repossesion, but at the end of the day they are not necessary for the provision of the common good so we need to revisit the wrong decision that was made to place these people into public sector positions of employment.

If our government was in any way capable, this culling of the public sector would not be an issue because we could create jobs in the private sector to offset the necessary adjustment. Unfortunately this government has managed to stand over the loss of 500,000 jobs in the last 2 years.

Cutting the salaries of firemen, nurses, etc, and leaving a mountain of quangos and state bodies that do only Jasus know's what, is like slashing your own wrists...

Darragh29

eoinbn wrote: »

Darragh, can you tell me what you think happens in a recession? Some numbers go up, some numbers go down but nothing bad happens and we all come out of it smelling of roses?

First of all, we are now in a depression in this country, it's no longer a recession in my eyes. What should happen is that jobs get created (I'm one of the people creating them at the moment), due to new and innovative ideas that emerge during harsher times, businesses can use the occasion to improve.

What happens here is that our first instinct is to sit down and p*ss ourselves because the foreign smart money that we needed to create jobs is departing. We can't create jobs because we have it in our heads that it's someone else's job to come here and create the jobs for us. That's our problem here, we are afraid to put the graft in that is necessary to create jobs for ourselves...

I used to work for a US multinational in this country and every morning, a private bus put on for free by the company used to come at my door and pick me up for work and every evening the same bus used to collect me at work and drive me back to my door. I mean short of opening my front door and coming up the stairs to wake me up with a fry and a cup of tea, they completely mollycoddled me and everyone else who got on that bus.

It's no wonder we are down 500K jobs now when this is what we have gotten used to... There are loads of opportunities out there if you are prepared to work hard to create them, Irish people just refuse to see them...

Think about this for a minute, we are 2 years into this, has anyone seen any atttempt whatsoever to help people create jobs in this country???

glaston

We seriously need to change the early retirement entitlement of some of the PS jobs.

A Garda I know retired the other day, he was 50.
Fookin 50!
I couldnt believe it. He is completely fit and healthy and capable of doing his job for several years more.

Rest of us will to be paying his guaranteed pension for 30 years or so.

eoinbn

Darragh29 wrote: »

First of all, we are now in a depression in this country, it's no longer a recession in my eyes. What should happen is that jobs get created (I'm one of the people creating them at the moment), due to new and innovative ideas that emerge during harsher times, businesses can use the occasion to improve.

What happens here is that our first instinct is to sit down and p*ss ourselves because the foreign smart money that we needed to create jobs is departing. We can't create jobs because we have it in our heads that it's someone else's job to come here and create the jobs for us. That's our problem here, we are afraid to put the graft in that is necessary to create jobs for ourselves...

I used to work for a US multinational in this country and every morning, a private bus put on for free by the company used to come at my door and pick me up for work and every evening the same bus used to collect me at work and drive me back to my door. I mean short of opening my front door and coming up the stairs to wake me up with a fry and a cup of tea, they completely mollycoddled me and everyone else who got on that bus.

It's no wonder we are down 500K jobs now when this is what we have gotten used to... There are loads of opportunities out there if you are prepared to work hard to create them, Irish people just refuse to see them...

Think about this for a minute, we are 2 years into this, has anyone seen any atttempt whatsoever to help people create jobs in this country???

You are probably right, it's a depression.
You didn't really answer my question. A recession/depression is always a correction of mistakes that have ALREADY happened, not necessarily because of mistakes that are currently been made. It's not just some random event that can be countered by magically creating jobs. As this worldwide recession has been caused by people getting into too much debt people need to pay back some of that debt before they get back spending which leads to more demand which leads to jobs.

givyjoe81

Darragh29 wrote: »

I'm just going to pick a salary figure out of my head here, say 45K. Is someone who is on 45K highly paid??? I wouldn't say that they are, someone who possibly has child and maybe a spouse who is unemployed and they themselves are on 45K and have bought ONE house over the last few years, in my opinion has a possible serious income problem...

What I'd like to know is, are those here who want to see public sector salaries cut, believe that a public sector worker on 45K a year should have their salary cut???

To my mind, a 45K salary is not a lot to live on if you are the sole bread winner in the house, I fully agree that there are people in the public sector on mad money and that this needs to be dealt with but 45K to me is not a lot if you have a mortgage and a spouse who is not working...

Am I being realistic when I think that gardai, nurses, teachers and civil servants after maybe 5 years on the job are still on 45K a year???

Your having en effin laugh aren't you?! 45k not overpaid?! Thats an excellent salary, and i would bite your hand off to take that right now. My last position was 34k before i went back to college and i though that was an excellent salary too.

Sorry but anyone who cant live comfortably on that is living way beyond their means, evidenced by the fact that they will now be 'struggling' if they are slapped with a 7-10% paycut, ever heard of the saying 'planning for a rainy day'? Surely such 'low paid' sole bread winners should have accounting, for a long time now, that their other half could lose their job. No one forced them to buy an majorly overinflated priced house either.

Lets also be clear, thats a salary, never mind OT. Friend from school earning 60k after salary and OT, thats a crazy amount of money to be paying a PS worker on the job less than 3 years (fireman incidentally). I also believe they do a good job mind you and see some terrible things, which millions of euro isnt enough to compensate for. However, we have to pay them a reasonable wage, benchmarked against countries of similar size and wealth, and that kind of money is neither realistic or sustainable.

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Right, now we are getting somewhere... The garda or nurse on 45K here in this country might have a mortgage of anywhere between 1K (if they are lucky), and 2K a month. I think someone on 45K a year would take home after tax, somewhere in the region of 2,700 a month.

Now say Jimmy the Garda, he takes home 2,700 Euro a month, say after a bit of overtime and bits and pieces, allowances or whatever, he clears 3K a month, take home.

Now if Jimmy has a 1.5K-2K a month mortgage, he has 1K-1.5K a month to live on.

It's all very wall comparing Jimmy the Garda to his counterpart in Wales, his counterpart in Wales didn't have to buy a house in a ridiculously overpriced property market. Before we get into the argument, "nobody made Paddy buy the house!!!", I believe it is inherently human to strive towards owning a place of shelter known as a house, for to start a family at some stage and live in the community in peace. I don't think we should be knocking anyone who bought a house to live in, even if they paid over the odds for it.

If we want to cut paddy the Garda's salary, then we should be going to the bank and cutting his mortgage back down to reflect the actual value in the property.

do you know of any private sector worker who managed to hold on to thier job or even fend off a pay cut based on thier ability to plead inability to meet mortgage repayments

irish_bob

diverdriver wrote: »

Just got their stupid leaflet in the door, complete with stupid stickers. It went straight into the bin along with yesterday's leaflet from IMPACT. Both seem to have plenty for money printing leaflets.

But I'm worried with this day of action or protest or whatever it's supposed to be. It seems to me to be a very dangerous thing and could lead to serious trouble in the streets. Comments have already been made by European politicians and others that it's surprising the Irish haven't been rioting on the streets by now. Begg even said it yesterday.

It seems to me that there is an agenda here to create the right conditions for riots. I always suspect the motives of union leaders. They aren't exactly noted for the right wing viewpoint or their commonsense. It's glaringly evident that cuts are needed. Yet all they can offer is a rejection of any cuts for their members, knowing full well that unless it happens this country goes bankrupt and soon.

But then maybe that's what the want. The collapse of the current, admittedly corrupt and failed regime and a it's replacement with their version of a socialist paradise.

If you have any sense stay off the streets on the day of the protest. There will be an attempt to stir trouble.

the unions led by jack o connor are licking thier lips at the prospect of strikes , for the likes of o,connor , this is about much more than reduced garda or nurses wages , the man is involved in a much broader idealogical war , he has suffered through twenty years of relative prosperity globally since the fall of the berlin wall and he is not going to miss his chance

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Hang on, 400K was the average cost of a family home in this country until very recently. People aspire to things and one thing at the very bottom level of the pyramid of human needs is shelter. If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There are many many people out there who just bought to put a roof over their heads, they bought somewhere with a modest front and back garden to maybe raise a family in and now they are being treated like they caused the whole problem and they have to suffer pay cuts from what is not that much above the average industrial wage???

Bollox to that I say, I don't want the cop who I might need to call or the nurse who might be looking after my child, to be completely run into the ground, underpaid and living from hand to mouth.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

The facts are that we have people in this country with high mortgages, they were not "investors" or speculators", they bought a house to put a roof over their head for themselves and their family. Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

I couldn't be more convinced that this government haven't a clue what they are doing, it's gotten to the stage where it is like 3 blind people trying to drive a car at this stage...

I don't sign up to the smugness of some people lately who are still living with their mammies in their 30's saying, "Oh I knew it was all going to fall apart, I didn't get a mortgage, I didn't get caught up in all of that, I don't feel at all sorry now for anyone with a high mortgage"... Yeah you're almost in your 40's and still single and living with your parents, get over yourself...

the average cost of a home peaked at 345 k nationally some time around november 2006 , the cost in dublin was about 90k higher

lmimmfn

Darragh29 wrote: »

Hang on, 400K was the average cost of a family home in this country until very recently. People aspire to things and one thing at the very bottom level of the pyramid of human needs is shelter. If someone decided to buy a house to live in and it was over priced, what should they have done, stayed in their parents for another ten years???

There are many many people out there who just bought to put a roof over their heads, they bought somewhere with a modest front and back garden to maybe raise a family in and now they are being treated like they caused the whole problem and they have to suffer pay cuts from what is not that much above the average industrial wage???

Bollox to that I say, I don't want the cop who I might need to call or the nurse who might be looking after my child, to be completely run into the ground, underpaid and living from hand to mouth.

If you want to cut the income of these people, then you need to look at their liabilities before doing so. This cutting the salaries of working people who are not highly paid is a race to the bottom, it is a knee jerk reaction to a very complex problem and it is just going to cause more job losses and a deeper depression than we already have.

The facts are that we have people in this country with high mortgages, they were not "investors" or speculators", they bought a house to put a roof over their head for themselves and their family. Those mortgages have to be repaid and this government is completely and entirely out of touch with the fact that people earning 40-50K a year are struggling to stay on top of their mortgages.

I couldn't be more convinced that this government haven't a clue what they are doing, it's gotten to the stage where it is like 3 blind people trying to drive a car at this stage...

I don't sign up to the smugness of some people lately who are still living with their mammies in their 30's saying, "Oh I knew it was all going to fall apart, I didn't get a mortgage, I didn't get caught up in all of that, I don't feel at all sorry now for anyone with a high mortgage"... Yeah you're almost in your 40's and still single and living with your parents, get over yourself...

never heard of renting then? :rolleyes:

Anyone who spent stupid money on a house should live with it, the whole thing was bloody nuts in 2002 never mind 2006/7 when it reached the peak.

And on the point of the frontline staff who we all owe our lives to well thats all fine and dandy throwing all those guys a wad of cash to make sure they do their job( last i heard thats what the private sector was about and doing your job is what you get paid for ), but in a few years time when most of us in the private sector lose our jobs where will we get the wads of cash then.

People need a bloody reality check.

starbelgrade

I got a letter about this through my door this morning, along with some stickers that the ICTU encouraged me to wear or display. I wonder how many households were targeted by this campaign & how much it cost. It also never mentioned once, anything about the public sector, but seemed to go under the guise of a general protest against the government. I found it a wee bit odd.

Not to mention the nicking of Bob Marley lyrics.

Not to mention that the letter was signed by David Begg, who earns an annual salary of €136,000. A delayed reponse can only be expected when you have the luxury of a financial cushion.

"You can fool some people sometimes,
But you cant fool all the people all the time."

Bob Marley

starbelgrade

lmimmfn wrote: »

never heard of renting then? :rolleyes:

Renting? Yep - heard of it. As far as I know, it means paying someone else's 2nd/ 3rd/ 4th (etc) mortgage off.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

Renting? Yep - heard of it. As far as I know, it means paying someone else's 2nd/ 3rd/ 4th (etc) mortgage off.

So rather than being happy and having a nice cosy/safe place to stay whereby you dont have to pay upkeep and have easy mobility you begrudge someone possibly using your rent money to pay for the property?

Those same people are up to their eyeballs in debt now, justice eh?

Im more than happy having been renting property for the past 16 years, i would have needed my head examined if i was going to take a mortgage on the extortionate prices of the past 10 years.

bobbyjoe

When Cowen etc start earning less than Obama come back to me about sharing the pain. In the meantime fight to keep what you have.

starbelgrade

lmimmfn wrote: »

So rather than being happy and having a nice cosy/safe place to stay whereby you dont have to pay upkeep and have easy mobility you begrudge someone possibly using your rent money to pay for the property?

Those same people are up to their eyeballs in debt now, justice eh?

Im more than happy having been renting property for the past 16 years, i would have needed my head examined if i was going to take a mortgage on the extortionate prices of the past 10 years.

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

fair enough, but you have to admit, everyone in a property trap made a conscious decision when they took a mortgage, a 15-35 year risk, with possible outcomes that we're completely understood.

For gods sake anyone who couldnt perceive that property prices might drop below what they originally paid during the 35 year mortgage or whatever needs their head examined, especially when its been known for years it would crash, by then end of that 35 years it will be back up again.

MysticalRain

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone. It's not my style.

I'm glad that you're happy out.. that's cool.. but I'm also concerned for people who got caught in the property trap.

They can have my sympathies, but not my money....what little I have left of it.

The fact is some people bet on a glorified pyramid scheme known as "the property market" and lost badly. It was their own decision, they should face up to the consequences and not come complaining to the rest of us asking for a bailout. Of course we're still paying for other their greed and shortsightedness anyway given the pay cuts the private sector has had to suffer.

starbelgrade

I can only guess that the next party voted into government will not be FF, FG, Labour, or Sinn Fein, but Me Fein.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I can only guess that the next party voted into government will not be FF, FG, Labour, or Sinn Fein, but Me Fein.

and that means? or do you think those of us who had 0 contribution to this problem should pay taxes to bail out everyone that bought houses, reducing our yearly income and any potential whatsoever to buy any property to help out the greedy ba*tards that created this situation.

If they were dumb enough to pay stupid money for a house they shouldnt have it in the first place.

Besides WTF is wrong with losing a house you cant afford, rent FFS like the rest of us.

The only me feiners here are the tossers looking for sympathy for situations they created themselves.

starbelgrade

lmimmfn wrote: »

and that means? or do you think those of us who had 0 contribution to this problem should pay taxes to bail out everyone that bought houses, reducing our yearly income and any potential whatsoever to buy any property to help out the greedy ba*tards that created this situation.

If they were dumb enough to pay stupid money for a house they shouldnt have it in the first place.

Besides WTF is wrong with losing a house you cant afford, rent FFS like the rest of us.

The only me feiners here are the tossers looking for sympathy for situations they created themselves.

I understand your anger, but I feel somewhat that is misdirected. It's not your fellow worker that may have an overpriced mortgage that is responsible for this, it's not your private sector brother that costs us an arm & a leg.. it is the system / systems that have let us down & f*cked us up.. and now is the time to embrace the problems of your brothers, your friends, your sisters & family and direct the anger at the system & to learn from the mistakes, our mistakes & to create a whole new system where this cannot be allowed to happen again.

lmimmfn

starbelgrade wrote: »

I understand your anger, but I feel somewhat that is misdirected. It's not your fellow worker that may have an overpriced mortgage that is responsible for this, it's not your private sector brother that costs us an arm & a leg.. it is the system / systems that have let us down & f*cked us up.. and now is the time to embrace the problems of your brothers, your friends, your sisters & family and direct the anger at the system & to learn from the mistakes, our mistakes & to create a whole new system where this cannot be allowed to happen again.

Honestly i cant help it, i really am outraged at all the factions of society in this country and the me fein attitude regardless of the consequences. Im half way between hoping it gets worse a lot worse, loads of PS on strike over long periods which will make me hate the place enough to leave soon or thinking that people might actually pull together and see the common good.

Youre right though and its what i want, but even reading the posts here over the past few months with idiotic "what about me and my hamster" posts and the likes an loads not giving a crap whatsoever about the common good.

- Nama outrages me.
- The banks & government outrage me.
- The idea of taxing those of us who decided against buying due to the fact that property had to fall to pay for those who now have homes but are struggling to pay, preventing those of us who rented during the good times to not be able to afford a home long-term outrages me.
- People who overspent/got too many loans to spend on crap outrages me.
- Public Sector( especially those on the frontline who said theyre planning to have the worst strikes this country has ever seen ) just because they lose a bit of cash outrages me.
- Dole heads moaning about their potential cuts and the bloody idea posted here of them having a union outrages me.

I just wish this country would cop to fcuk on and try and get through this in a logical way and without segregating people but coming together in a common good. It'll never happen, there are far to many self centred people in the country with their own goals and greed, its unfortunate that we've come to this.

On the bright side though its becoming more and more of an incentive to leave

Zambia

lmimmfn wrote: »

So rather than being happy and having a nice cosy/safe place to stay whereby you dont have to pay upkeep and have easy mobility you begrudge someone possibly using your rent money to pay for the property?

Those same people are up to their eyeballs in debt now, justice eh?

Im more than happy having been renting property for the past 16 years, i would have needed my head examined if i was going to take a mortgage on the extortionate prices of the past 10 years.

In 1999 a mate of mine bought a property on a road in Dublin for £130,000 in 2002 I bought the same type of property on the same road for £183,000
.In 2006 Nov A mate sold a same type property on the road for €395,000.
The advertised prices of these propertys now is €300,000. I doubt they will slide back to pre 2004 Levels.

So if you indeed bought 10 years ago your head examination would have been positive! Life mate is what happens while you are making plans, don't begrudge someone buying a house in the times they live in.

lmimmfn

Zambia232 wrote: »

In 1999 a mate of mine bought a property on a road in Dublin for £130,000 in 2002 I bought the same type of property on the same road for £183,000
.In 2006 Nov A mate sold a same type property on the road for €395,000.
The advertised prices of these propertys now is €300,000. I doubt they will slide back to pre 2004 Levels.

So if you indeed bought 10 years ago your head examination would have been positive! Life mate is what happens while you are making plans, don't begrudge someone buying a house in the times they live in.

No, sorry i was a bit ambiguous, i was stating 11 years as the point at which property started increasing in value at insane growth and further fueled when we joined the Euro and very low interest rates/cheap money. I only started working 11 years ago, there is no way in hell that i could buy a property until at least 2002/2003. I do not in any way begrudge those that own property, in fact in the good times i always commended those who decided to take the plunge, i do however begrudge me having to pay tax to pay for any of those private properties( outside of Nama, if there was no Nama i couldnt care less tbh ).

Again i am very very happy for those who own their own homes as long as i dont get taxed to pay for them( which is a bit of a joke if you stayed away from the market because of the insane prices and doubly bad when it will severely impact the non owners to even buy a place in the future lol )

herya

Zambia232 wrote: »

In 1999 a mate of mine bought a property on a road in Dublin for £130,000 in 2002 I bought the same type of property on the same road for £183,000
.In 2006 Nov A mate sold a same type property on the road for €395,000.
The advertised prices of these propertys now is €300,000. I doubt they will slide back to pre 2004 Levels.

So if you indeed bought 10 years ago your head examination would have been positive! Life mate is what happens while you are making plans, don't begrudge someone buying a house in the times they live in.

If someone bought at such prices they wouldn't have any problem paying off their mortgage now. It's the folks who shelled out €400k they didn't have who are in trouble now.

mloc

Sigh.

All this argument is completely missing the point. There is no money left in the economy. Everybody, from the average house owner to the government, is in debt.

If you don't cut government spending DRASTICALLY the country ends up bankrupt. Public service wages have to drop, and realistically, 30% of public service jobs need to go. It is a painful adjustment the country must make to heal the wound left by the artificial affluence brought by the so called Celtic Tiger.

All this talk about big business being out to get everyone... who do you think employs people, brings money into the country and pushes forward Ireland's economy? Some idiot pushing paper around a Dept. of the Environment office? Get real.

As for what happened in the banking industry, there is no need to over complicate the situation. If people broke the law, put them in a court. If no laws were broken, look into what went wrong and if necessary, enact legislation to prevent it happening again. The constant "make the bankers pay for it" rheotoric understates a total lack of understanding of situation; no one group of people can fill the hole we are in. We don't need to look back, we need to look forward, as far as rebuilding our economy is concerned.

dan_d

mloc. Thank God somebody here has the sense to say it as it is.

WE NO LONGER HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THESE WAGES.

I have been listening to this debate for the last few weeks. I was listening to a certain radio station's phone in show one evening this week where they discussed this. All the callers bar one were public servants.ALL of them(so- called lower paid), whinged and whined and moaned about their pension levy and cuts and "I can't survive if they take any more from me".
Can I point out that they were earning as much as me (take home pay) for working a 4 day week....And I've been paying my pension since I started work. And I'm working 5 days a week for min of 50 hrs.

I am not public service bashing here.Fair play to you if that's where you work. Couldn't care less. But equally, there seems to be an attitude of "we have to save the country - oh but you can't take my money. You can't expect ME to change my lifestyle to help".

Public service wages must and will be cut.It HAS to come from the top down.There has to be some sort of sliding scale.But it's got to happen all the way down.. They seriously need to cut at least a third of the staff too. And the social welfare.

Yes I know I sound drastic.But the cost of living will fall. The adjustment period will be very painful, however it' s got to happen. Why do you think it's so cheap to live in Europe?Because Europeans get paid less than Irish people. Therefore goods are cheaper. It's all relative.

On the subject of property - look, there has to be some sort of plan put in place to help those with huge mortgages and less wages. There is just no point in the world in yapping about how nobody forced people to buy houses and it's their own fault they have these mortgages. Firstly hindsight is 20-20. Secondly, it doesn't solve the problem, nor does it contribute to the argument helpfully. We are where we are.People are entitled to their opinion, however it is a pointless argument. We have this problem, and we've got to solve it.End of story.

So to end this rant - - - - no I won't be joining their protest. I think the unions are a disgrace and they are just trying to show the Gov and the people they won't be stood on.In the end they are going to lose. How badly I don't know, but pay will be cut, because it has to be.

Just to say, I have a big mortgage and I was told this week I'm taking a paycut from Jan. No negotiation, no unions, no strikes - just a quick chat with the guy in charge and a letter in jan to everyone in the company. I'm private sector. It's got to be done. BUt yes - I get really annoyed hearing the likes of David Beggs and Jack O'Connor talking as if this is something that could be avoided.It can't be and the sooner they accept that the better.

irish_bob

mloc wrote: »

Sigh.

All this argument is completely missing the point. There is no money left in the economy. Everybody, from the average house owner to the government, is in debt.

If you don't cut government spending DRASTICALLY the country ends up bankrupt. Public service wages have to drop, and realistically, 30% of public service jobs need to go. It is a painful adjustment the country must make to heal the wound left by the artificial affluence brought by the so called Celtic Tiger.

All this talk about big business being out to get everyone... who do you think employs people, brings money into the country and pushes forward Ireland's economy? Some idiot pushing paper around a Dept. of the Environment office? Get real.

As for what happened in the banking industry, there is no need to over complicate the situation. If people broke the law, put them in a court. If no laws were broken, look into what went wrong and if necessary, enact legislation to prevent it happening again. The constant "make the bankers pay for it" rheotoric understates a total lack of understanding of situation; no one group of people can fill the hole we are in. We don't need to look back, we need to look forward, as far as rebuilding our economy is concerned.

not only do we need a 30% cull of public sector staff , we need on average a 30% cut in wages over three years , 50% for consultants , judges and politicians , 30% for guards , teachers , nurses and 15% for clerical officers etc , this would bring us in line with european countries which are about as wealthy as us , this country is going to get a whole lot poorer