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Get Up Stand Up, the ICTU's half baked response to the upcoming PS Paycuts...
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starbelgrade wrote: »I understand your anger, but I feel somewhat that is misdirected. It's not your fellow worker that may have an overpriced mortgage that is responsible for this, it's not your private sector brother that costs us an arm & a leg.. it is the system / systems that have let us down & f*cked us up.. and now is the time to embrace the problems of your brothers, your friends, your sisters & family and direct the anger at the system & to learn from the mistakes, our mistakes & to create a whole new system where this cannot be allowed to happen again.
"The system" is designed to fleece people like you. That's how it's supposed to work because it's a business. Blaming "the system" is the equivalent of a gambler complaining about the casino that took all his money. The key point is not to play the game in the first place when the odds are stacked against you. Nobody forced people to buy houses. They could have just rented for a few years until the bubble burst and prices returned to normal.
People will never learn anything from their mistakes if they don't accept personal responsibility for their actions. They screwed up, and now the rest of us are somehow supposed to bail them out despite the fact that we are broke too, due in no small part to the actions of the people who behaved recklessly. Well that's not fair in the slightest. That's Me Fein taken to a whole new level.0 -
starbelgrade wrote: »I got a letter about this through my door this morning, along with some stickers that the ICTU encouraged me to wear or display. I wonder how many households were targeted by this campaign & how much it cost. It also never mentioned once, anything about the public sector, but seemed to go under the guise of a general protest against the government. I found it a wee bit odd.
Not to mention the nicking of Bob Marley lyrics.
Not to mention that the letter was signed by David Begg, who earns an annual salary of €136,000. A delayed reponse can only be expected when you have the luxury of a financial cushion.
"You can fool some people sometimes,
But you cant fool all the people all the time."
Bob Marley
I got one of these letters this morning and I have to agree with what is said in the letter. I've been saying the exact same thing on this forum for 12 months now, this government has absolutely no strategy whatsoever for the protection of jobs and the creation or new jobs. Billions for the banks but not a red cent for job creation.
It's simply not good enough, I'm all for completely reforming the public sector and if people need to take a pay cut, then so be it, although I think people who are on under 40K are really struggling now.
But the key to getting this right is job creation. We are at absolutely NOTHING without enterprise creation in this country. This is how completely f*cking thick this government actually is... For the last ten years they dragged the likes of Dell over here with a "high tech" identity, whereas in fact all Paddy was doing was putting the computers together, putting the Microsoft stickers on the PC's and putting them into boxes for Dell....
Now the chickens have come home to roost, we have to real indigenious entrepreneurial community in Ireland, so we have no job creation. Whatever enterpreneurship that does exist here, is not supported at any level, so no jobs get created, more jobs get lost, the whole thing at this stage is like a runaway training heading down an incline and the train crash has yet to happen.
When people eventually cop what is going on here, there will be serious civil unrest in this country, I have no doubt of that...0 -
I would like to echo the above comments.
I received the letter this morning also:
The way the letter is presented, it looks like ICTU are standing up against government, protecting both public and private sector, from 'income taxes'.
- It makes no pension of PS pay reductions which presumably is the core issue.
- It talks of extending the timeframe for recovery.
- It informs of a protest on November 6th at Connelly hall in Cork City.
Very misleading imo
(unless ICTU have taken a new position of which I'm not aware??).0 -
Thats not entirely accurate. (Largely it is tho)I got one of these letters this morning and I have to agree with what is said in the letter. I've been saying the exact same thing on this forum for 12 months now, this government has absolutely no strategy whatsoever for the protection of jobs and the creation or new jobs. Billions for the banks but not a red cent for job creation.
ut the key to getting this right is job creation. We are at absolutely NOTHING without enterprise creation in this country. This is how completely f*cking thick this government actually is... For the last ten years they dragged the likes of Dell over here with a "high tech" identity, whereas in fact all Paddy was doing was putting the computers together, putting the Microsoft stickers on the PC's and putting them into boxes for Dell....
Now the chickens have come home to roost, we have to real indigenious entrepreneurial community in Ireland, so we have no job creation. Whatever enterpreneurship that does exist here, is not supported at any level, so no jobs get created, more jobs get lost, the whole thing at this stage is like a runaway training heading down an incline and the train crash has yet to happen.
When people eventually cop what is going on here, there will be serious civil unrest in this country, I have no doubt of that...
There have been employment subsidies under EU State Aid Funds, allowing the subsidy of people in employment by up to €200 per week.
http://www.employmentsubsidy.ie/Default.aspx
The point I'm unsure on, is wheter this money comes from Dublin or Brussels?0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »Thats not entirely accurate. (Largely it is tho)
There have been employment subsidies under EU State Aid Funds, allowing the subsidy of people in employment by up to €200 per week.
http://www.employmentsubsidy.ie/Default.aspx
The point I'm unsure on, is wheter this money comes from Dublin or Brussels?
It's all very well in theory. You go down to your local County Enterprise Board and tell them you want to discuss a business plan that you have drawn up and see the reception you get.
Our problem here is not that we have to make cutbacks in the public sector. This isn't our problem. All other things being equal, that would be just a necessary correction in the natural order of things. Our huge problem here is that after we make those cuts in numbers employed in the public sector, they have no chance whatsoever of getting a job in the private sector.
It goes back to my point and I believe the ICTU have it right on this occasion, there is no focus on job retention and on job creation, none whatsoever, apart from some sh*te talk about "green jobs" and a "knowledge economy"....
As I said, when people finally cop the absolutely frightful situation we are now in, there will be civil unrest I think we will not have seen the likes of since the civil war.0 -
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There is certainly a sense of denial from certain public sector workers. Not alone that but you also still have the regular blurt of 'we didn't do well out of the Tiger'.
Who did? Well the FAS lads, County Managers, Brendan Drumm to name but a few public servants didn't do too bad did they? Is there not also an army of top civil servants on handsome six figure salaries with fancy pensions to look forward to too?
Not alone that but the perks such as mileage etc too.
I also dont think they realise the value of job security in the current climate , fiscal crisis or no fiscal crisis.
Yes we all have financial responsibilites be it mortgages, loans, rent, childcare etc, me I'd rather get hit with a 20% cut knowing that I'm in that job for life.0 -
i consider 45 k a very very good wage , especially for someone with such modest abilitys as are required to be a guard
One modest ability would be ...
Gardaí on traffic duty on the Ossory Road in the North Inner City was shot by a passenger in a stolen car
and a quick google search will show a lot more competencies of a similar nature.0 -
MysticalRain wrote: »"The system" is designed to fleece people like you.
Hey - look, I try the best I can to take an objective stance to all debates. I make no presumptions, or at least, I try my best to keep my predujices at bay, so please allow me the same courtesy.
For all you know, I could be Brian Cowen, the head of an Irish bank, or a homeless person (with wi-fi access).0 -
Our huge problem here is that after we make those cuts in numbers employed in the public sector, they have no chance whatsoever of getting a job in the private sector.
And why? Because private sector is overloaded having to fund the bloated public sector with private taxes. Private sector brings taxes, public sector spends them, not the other way round.0 -
And why? Because private sector is overloaded having to fund the bloated public sector with private taxes. Private sector brings taxes, public sector spends them, not the other way round.
Public sector workers also pay tax and with the taxes that the private sector pays, theses all amount to providing vital services that no country could survive without. No-one's saying that there is wastage, but let's not forget the basics.0 -
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TCP/IP_King wrote: »One modest ability would be ...
Gardaí on traffic duty on the Ossory Road in the North Inner City was shot by a passenger in a stolen car
and a quick google search will show a lot more competencies of a similar nature.
ah , the ol pull at the heartstrings tactic to defend pay , shur why not trebble thier pay seeing that they could still get shot on 150 k a year on average , police are at risk of injury although in this country the risk overall is very small as statistics proove0 -
Yes, the 'Frontline Alliance' are deliberately separating themselves from the rest of the PS. Fostering the heroic myth about themselves. Even the name 'Frontline' is deliberate conjuring up images of them putting themselves out there defending the rest of us. It's utterly cynical. They want us to believe their career choice renders them immune to the realities the rest of us face economically.
Of course I'll be attacked for saying that. Next time I need a Garda or a nurse. I'll change my tune etc etc. I'll get lectured on the dangers of the job and how unpleasant is. The fact of the matter is that they are well paid for the job they do, proportionally better than in many countries. Too much in fact. But apparently they have to be treated differently.
If they were really dedicated to the people of this country as they claim. They will stand alongside the rest of us and take some of the economic pain. Whatever cuts they suffer won't actually impact on them as much as losing their job altogether. Get real.0 -
diverdriver wrote: »Yes, the 'Frontline Alliance' are deliberately separating themselves from the rest of the PS. Fostering the heroic myth about themselves. Even the name 'Frontline' is deliberate conjuring up images of them putting themselves out there defending the rest of us. It's utterly cynical. They want us to believe their career choice renders them immune to the realities the rest of us face economically.
Of course I'll be attacked for saying that. Next time I need a Garda or a nurse. I'll change my tune etc etc. I'll get lectured on the dangers of the job and how unpleasant is. The fact of the matter is that they are well paid for the job they do, proportionally better than in many countries. Too much in fact. But apparently they have to be treated differently.
If they were really dedicated to the people of this country as they claim. They will stand alongside the rest of us and take some of the economic pain. Whatever cuts they suffer won't actually impact on them as much as losing their job altogether. Get real.
+1
no room for any sacred cows0 -
TCP/IP_King wrote: »One modest ability would be ...
Gardaí on traffic duty on the Ossory Road in the North Inner City was shot by a passenger in a stolen car
and a quick google search will show a lot more competencies of a similar nature.
Come off it, that is so far from the norm its ludicrous to even suggest that it is. How much 'danger' money should we be paying them then? A million, two? In case they get shot? Sorry but while they mostly do a good job, they are undoubtedly paid very good wages, and a savage amount of 'o/t' as its fondly known. A mate from school spent 3 years battering down the door for the guards, ONLY for the fringe benefits. Much the same as i applied for the Public service a few years ago.0 -
It would appear that the only people getting shafted in the Public Service are those in the "professions" such as engineers, solicitors, draughtsmen etc.
€91k is the cap for architects, engineers, accountants employed after 1995, however I fail to see anyone underpaid or anywhere near it based on skill levels in the current payscale. 10% could be cut from everyone at administrative level and higher. (€40k+). €40k is a decent salary to start out earning if you have an education and professional qualifications. Most of the people being targetted aren't starting out, the are most likely at the top point on the scale, but the whole scale needs to be radically and swiftly re-adjusted downwards.
This makes for interesting reading
http://www.publicjobs.ie/downloads/Circular_18_2008_payscales_210808.pdf0 -
I got one from Jack O'Connor/David Begg, can't remember which one, but both of them have 6 figure salaries plus expenses. When I get home it'll be getting a return to sender note with FU<K OFF written across it in black marker.Dannyboy83 wrote: »I would like to echo the above comments.
I received the letter this morning also:
The way the letter is presented, it looks like ICTU are standing up against government, protecting both public and private sector, from 'income taxes'.
- It makes no pension of PS pay reductions which presumably is the core issue.
- It talks of extending the timeframe for recovery.
- It informs of a protest on November 6th at Connelly hall in Cork City.
Very misleading imo
(unless ICTU have taken a new position of which I'm not aware??).0 -
Right, now we are getting somewhere... The garda or nurse on 45K here in this country might have a mortgage of anywhere between 1K (if they are lucky), and 2K a month. I think someone on 45K a year would take home after tax, somewhere in the region of 2,700 a month.
Now say Jimmy the Garda, he takes home 2,700 Euro a month, say after a bit of overtime and bits and pieces, allowances or whatever, he clears 3K a month, take home.
Now if Jimmy has a 1.5K-2K a month mortgage, he has 1K-1.5K a month to live on.
It's all very wall comparing Jimmy the Garda to his counterpart in Wales, his counterpart in Wales didn't have to buy a house in a ridiculously overpriced property market. Before we get into the argument, "nobody made Paddy buy the house!!!", I believe it is inherently human to strive towards owning a place of shelter known as a house, for to start a family at some stage and live in the community in peace. I don't think we should be knocking anyone who bought a house to live in, even if they paid over the odds for it.
If we want to cut paddy the Garda's salary, then we should be going to the bank and cutting his mortgage back down to reflect the actual value in the property.
If poor Paddy the Garda can't survive on €1-1.5k a month living expenses AFTER his mortgage is paid, then maybe Paddy the Garda should cut back on the breakfast rolls & nights out in Copperface Jacks.0 -
starbelgrade wrote: »If poor Paddy the Garda can't survive on €1-1.5k a month living expenses AFTER his mortgage is paid, then maybe Paddy the Garda should cut back on the breakfast rolls & nights out in Copperface Jacks.
Ok, well take out 350 Euro for a car repayment maybe, so take the median figure of the pay range that I suggested, which would be 1,250 Euro a month...
Let's put a figure on other expenses...
Car loan: 300 Euro/month.
Monthly bills (ESB, Gas, Vodafone): 300 Euro/month
Food & clothes: 300 Euro/month
We are now 900 Euro into Paddy's 1,250 Euro of disposable income after paying his mortgage. Paddy is a wedding or a car service away from having no money left come the end of the month and he hasn't even gone to Copper's yet???0 -
So spend less on the wedding and ditch the car? Neither are even close to being a neccessity. Neither is 300p/m on bills or food....We are now 900 Euro into Paddy's 1,250 Euro of disposable income after paying his mortgage. Paddy is a wedding or a car service away from having no money left come the end of the month and he hasn't even gone to Copper's yet???0 -
So spend less on the wedding and ditch the car? Neither are even close to being a neccessity. Neither is 300p/m on bills or food....
Well this is where I disagree. If my child goes missing and I have to call the Gardai, or God forbid there is an accident and I need to being one of my family to A & E or call an ambulance, I don't want the person who has decided to be the person who will be looking after my needs, to be living on the breadline.
What you are suggesting is a race to the bottom in terms of income. I fully accept that there are people on 100K and more in the public sector who should be made to take a pay cut. But we should look at those who are providing front line services, and recognise that they are typically not very highly paid. I believe anyone on 40-45K or under should not be made take another pay cut.
At the same time, I accept that there are many people in the PS who need to take a substantial pay cut. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this one...0 -
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Are you seriously calling 45k living on the breadline?Well this is where I disagree. If my child goes missing and I have to call the Gardai, or God forbid there is an accident and I need to being one of my family to A & E or call an ambulance, I don't want the person who has decided to be the person who will be looking after my needs, to be living on the breadline.
My sister's husband works part time and my sister doesn't work, leaving the two of them and their 18 month old kid on a combined income of sub €30k. They aren't even close to being on the breadline and even manage to run a small car and get off on holidays every year. If you are in any way responsible when it comes to money, €45k is pretty easy to live off. Idiots like 'Paddy the Garda' who waste huge amounts of money deserve all the trouble it brings them.0 -
Are you seriously calling 45k living on the breadline?
My sister's husband works part time and my sister doesn't work, leaving the two of them and their 18 month old kid on a combined income of sub €30k. They aren't even close to being on the breadline and even manage to run a small car and get off on holidays every year. If you are in any way responsible when it comes to money, €45k is pretty easy to live off. Idiots like 'Paddy the Garda' who waste huge amounts of money deserve all the trouble it brings them.
Maybe if you are living on your own you will be very comfortable on 45K... I'm listening to Newstalk here and I've just heard an e-mail read out from a Fireman-Paramedic who is the only earner in his house and has 5 kids. I don't know what money he is on but you wouldn't see 45K disappearing in his house.
The example you cite above, I have a single friend who is on 38K...
I think his NET monthly income after tax is around 2,200 Euro/Month...
He has a BIK bill on his company car every month of 380 Euro...
He has a mortage bill every month of 1000 Euro...
He puts 100 Euro aside every week to live on, food, etc, 400 Euro/Month...
He lives in a managed estate and has a bill of around 1500 Euro/Year for estate management fee's, costing him 125 Euro/Month...
We're now into 1,905 Euro of the 2200 Euro NET income after deductions.
He has a 250 Euro/Month credit union loan to repay...
So now we're into 2,155 Euro of a 2,200 income. He still hasn't gone into town or even gone to his local yet.
If he has a problem with his car or some event that happens like a boiler problem and he gets exposed to a hit of 300-400 Euro, he's literally bamboozled!
And that 100 Euro a week has to pay for ESB, Gas, food, clothes, solicialising (if he can afford it which he usually can't)...
It's hard to see how you can claim that 3 people can live very comfortably on 8K less to be honest...0 -
It's not all that hard tbh. Your friend is only paying out 2155 a month of his 2200 because of bad choices, not because he actually has to. For example:Darragh29 wrote:It's hard to see how you can claim that 3 people can live very comfortably on 8K less to be honest...
Second hand car prices have plummeted, yet he bought a new one and is now having to pay for it. Entirely his choice.He has a BIK bill on his company car every month of 380 Euro...
He bought a house in a housing boom? If he was renting, he could be in a 2 bed place for 700p/m.Darragh29 wrote:He has a mortage bill every month of 1000 Euro...
Again, he bought a house in a boom and is now struggling to pay the inevitable bills. The amount he would have to pay back would have been known to him when he bought it, it's his own fault if he bought something more expensive than he can afford.Darragh29 wrote:He lives in a managed estate and has a bill of around 1500 Euro/Year for estate management fee's, costing him 125 Euro/Month...
You borrow money - you have to pay it back. You don't borrow money - you don't have to pay anything back. If you can't afford the repayments for a loan, don't get the loan in the first place.Darragh29 wrote:He has a 250 Euro/Month credit union loan to repay...
Over the course of a year, unpredictable events like car problems are inevitable. Not taking this into account and acquiring outgoing expenses up to the point where you can't afford it when something does go wrong is pretty irresponsible.Darragh29 wrote:If he has a problem with his car or some event that happens like a boiler problem and he gets exposed to a hit of 300-400 Euro, he's literally bamboozled!
p.s. Your friend is on over €10k more than I am, and I've already taken a pay cut (private sector). I'm nowhere near the breadline and am actually saving every month. If your friend was a bit more realistic about what he could/couldn't afford he wouldn't be struggling so much.0 -
It's not all that hard tbh. Your friend is only paying out 2155 a month of his 2200 because of bad choices, not because he actually has to. For example:
Second hand car prices have plummeted, yet he bought a new one and is now having to pay for it. Entirely his choice.
He has absolutely no choice in this whatsoever!!! He has a sales job that means his company give him a company car. The government make him pay BIK on this. The company used to let the reps have their own cars and claim mileage but they did away with that and made every rep take a company car because that way, it worked out cheaper for the company. There is no choice involved here, it's either keep the job (and therefore the company car), or else p*ss off down to the dole office...He bought a house in a housing boom? If he was renting, he could be in a 2 bed place for 700p/m.
Again, he bought a house in a boom and is now struggling to pay the inevitable bills. The amount he would have to pay back would have been known to him when he bought it, it's his own fault if he bought something more expensive than he can afford.
You borrow money - you have to pay it back. You don't borrow money - you don't have to pay anything back. If you can't afford the repayments for a loan, don't get the loan in the first place.
Over the course of a year, unpredictable events like car problems are inevitable. Not taking this into account and acquiring outgoing expenses up to the point where you can't afford it when something does go wrong is pretty irresponsible.
p.s. Your friend is on over €10k more than I am, and I've already taken a pay cut (private sector). I'm nowhere near the breadline and am actually saving every month. If your friend was a bit more realistic about what he could/couldn't afford he wouldn't be struggling so much.
He didn't buy a house in the "peak of the boom" as you suggest... He bought a house in good faith at a time when prices were reasonable enough, (albeit not completely out of control as they were at the end of the boom). He has one house, as I believe is normal and "within expectations" for any person who wants to get on with their life, possibly start a family and live in peace...
He did nothing selfish by buying a house to live in. You sound like you are renting, think about this for a minute:
(1) You have relatively little security of tenure which I accept is not your fault...
(2) The very fu*ckers that have caused this mess, the people with multiple properties, you are now paying their mortgage and assisting them in building up their wealth and their retirement fund. It's these very people I suggest that you ought have a more serious problem with, not the likes of my mate who bought A SINGLE property that he can afford.
The multiple property landlord is the scourge of this country. It fell to the government to regulate and balance the needs of society and the govrnment failed this country and it's people. Our society didn't need people being able to hoover up properties as did happen. What it needed was a more stable market where prices were not driven up by insane speculation but rose in a more stable manner, consistent with people buying houses that they actually intended to live in, as distinct from renting out a load of properties to a load of people who hadn't even arrived in the country yet.
Also, while my mate can afford his mortgage and can survive, he cannot sell his house as he is now in negative equity and would need to come up with around 20-30K to close the mortgage, to bridge the gap between what the property is worth and what he owes on it. So the option of selling up and renting out a property (and subsidising another propety parasite above), is not open to him and even if it was, why should he avail of it???
The right of individuals to get rich by way of property investment, was placed far over the right of honest decent working people to be allowed to buy a home of their own, that's what went wrong and we will spend many years fixing it.
Your philosophy suggests that we need more parasite property landlords so that more of us can be kept under the heel of wealthy speculators.0 -
I don't have a problem with him at all, he's made his decisions and is now living with the consequences. That's a fundamental part of life. I am pointing out however that if he can't live on €38k when single however, it's not due to it being impossible, it's due to the lifestyle he is living.(2) The very fu*ckers that have caused this mess, the people with multiple properties, you are now paying their mortgage and assisting them in building up their wealth and their retirement fund. It's these very people I suggest that you ought have a more serious problem with, not the likes of my mate who bought A SINGLE property that he can afford.
Also, while my mate can afford his mortgage and can survive, he cannot sell his house as he is now in negative equity and would need to come up with around 20-30K to close the mortgage, to bridge the gap between what the property is worth and what he owes on it. So the option of selling up and renting out a property (and subsidising another propety parasite above), is not open to him and even if it was, why should he avail of it???
All this ties back to the topic which we've wandered off, in that having a lower bound of €40-€45k below which PS workers wouldn't take a pay cut because they can't afford it doesn't make sense. If the private sector workers on salarys lower than that can and have survived cuts, why shouldn't the public sector?0 -
Nobody put a gun to his/her head and said have 5 kids. In this day and age that's too many really but if you have them make sure you can afford them.Maybe if you are living on your own you will be very comfortable on 45K... I'm listening to Newstalk here and I've just heard an e-mail read out from a Fireman-Paramedic who is the only earner in his house and has 5 kids. I don't know what money he is on but you wouldn't see 45K disappearing in his house.0 -
I don't have a problem with him at all, he's made his decisions and is now living with the consequences. That's a fundamental part of life. I am pointing out however that if he can't live on €38k when single however, it's not due to it being impossible, it's due to the lifestyle he is living.
All this ties back to the topic which we've wandered off, in that having a lower bound of €40-€45k below which PS workers wouldn't take a pay cut because they can't afford it doesn't make sense. If the private sector workers on salarys lower than that can and have survived cuts, why shouldn't the public sector?
You are implying that there is something overtly flashy about wanting to buy a house and live in peace. This is the one thing that gets on my nerves these days, is the constant smugness issued by anyone who decided they didn't want to buy a house and is now either:
(A) In their 30's and still living with their Mammy, or...
(B) Who has contributed to the serious economic problem we are now in, by, (possibly not by any fault of their own), tolerating a situation whereby they were completely priced out of the property market and had no alternative but to pay rent and by doing so, paying the mortgage of a property parasite/investor.Nobody put a gun to his/her head and said have 5 kids. In this day and age that's too many really but if you have them make sure you can afford them.
I don't think it's anyone's place to tell another person how many kids you should or should not have. If you have a stable secure income and you decide to have a family that you can support basd upon that income and then your employer comes along and wants to cut your income by up to 20% in a 2 year period, what do you suggest the guy should do, hand up 3/5th of his kids to the state???
My only point is that we should strive to live in a country where there is nothing abnormal or extravagant about owning your own property. We should strive to live in a country where, whether you be a private or public sector worker, you have a minimum standard of living, after you have finished education or a trade or whatever.
We seem to have a major problem in this country with defining our expectations, or where we have expectations, they only seem to extend to an individual. We should be seeking I think to set a line under which no person or family should be allowed to fall, and all the time striving to see as many people living over that line of survival by their own means...
I think this is where the conversation needs to start...0 -
Darragh29 I believe you used to talk a fair bit of sense from what I have seen on these forums, but in this thread I believe you appear to have lost the plot.
Your argument is that certain people's salary should not be cut since they may have a large mortgage or they may have a large family ?
You even bring in car repayments & BIK into the discussion.
BTW BIK should not be that much if he was using the car a lot, but it is crippling if he is not doing the mileage.
You appear then to target people that didn't run out and buy an over priced property, thus signing up for long term large repayments that can become crippping if they suffer loss in income or interest rates rise massively.
You claim the non buyers are the reason for the landlords and speculators that helped drive up property prices :mad:
The reason for the speculators/multi proeprty landlords is the government inaction or rather postive actions to allow them operate.
People have to take personal responsibility for their actions and if you decided to pay huge amount for a house, didn't properly stress test repayment capbilities, bought new car(s) or decided to have half a dozen kids, then don't expect the rest of us who didn't to compensate you for doing so. :mad:
Why should we all, through our taxes, subsidise someone's lifestyle and life decisions ?
Your friend decided to buy a property, a property in a managed estate, did he work out how he would manage his repayments if interest rates went up a lot or if he had hit in income ?
It appears from what you say about his situation, he didn't truly stress test his capability to repay.
Did he buy all new furniture straight away for his property ?
What is the credit union loan for ?
Sorry, but as other posters have stated if you live beyond your means then it is your own fault.I am not allowed discuss …
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It would appear that the only people getting shafted in the Public Service are those in the "professions" such as engineers, solicitors, draughtsmen etc.
€91k is the cap for architects, engineers, accountants employed after 1995, however I fail to see anyone underpaid or anywhere near it based on skill levels in the current payscale. 10% could be cut from everyone at administrative level and higher. (€40k+). €40k is a decent salary to start out earning if you have an education and professional qualifications. Most of the people being targetted aren't starting out, the are most likely at the top point on the scale, but the whole scale needs to be radically and swiftly re-adjusted downwards.
This makes for interesting reading
http://www.publicjobs.ie/downloads/Circular_18_2008_payscales_210808.pdf
Whats interesting about that? or have I missed something.0 -
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No, I'm saying that if you can afford a house, then go ahead. If you can't really afford it, then not buying makes more sense than being stuck with a mortgage that'll cause you to struggle financially. It's nothing to do with smugness, it's just common sense. If you did go out and get the mortgage, it's not really anyone elses fault but your own if you're finding it hard to make ends meet.You are implying that there is something overtly flashy about wanting to buy a house and live in peace. This is the one thing that gets on my nerves these days, is the constant smugness issued by anyone who decided they didn't want to buy a house and is now either:
p.s. I don't own a house, yet I don't fall into either your (A) or (B) category.0
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