Get Up Stand Up, the ICTU's half baked response to the upcoming PS Paycuts...

TCP/IP_King

Blowfish wrote: »

....If you did go out and get the mortgage, it's not really anyone elses fault but your own if you're finding it hard to make ends meet.

You're obviously a single person with no family. Unfortunately in Ireland your only real option for family security is a place of your own. I was renting several years ago and moved twice with two young kids, fortunately not of school age, and that was a nightmare.

Landlords in Ireland have managed to evade, for example , the depressingly pro-tenant security of tenure of Germany so far.

irish_bob

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well this is where I disagree. If my child goes missing and I have to call the Gardai, or God forbid there is an accident and I need to being one of my family to A & E or call an ambulance, I don't want the person who has decided to be the person who will be looking after my needs, to be living on the breadline.

What you are suggesting is a race to the bottom in terms of income. I fully accept that there are people on 100K and more in the public sector who should be made to take a pay cut. But we should look at those who are providing front line services, and recognise that they are typically not very highly paid. I believe anyone on 40-45K or under should not be made take another pay cut.

At the same time, I accept that there are many people in the PS who need to take a substantial pay cut. But we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this one...

the only guards , nurses or teachers on under 45 k are those who are freshmen or just into the job, the average guard earns 1200 quid a week , the average teacher and nurse in or around a grand a week , im sick of the pull at the heartstrings tactic employed by the so called FRONTLINE workers , are the challenges for police and nurses any different in the uk where police and nurses earn at least a third less than here

TCP/IP_King

irish_bob wrote: »

....the average guard earns 1200 quid a week , the average teacher and nurse in or around a grand a week .

They earn a bit more than that ...

A breakdown of the earnings figures showed that weekly earnings in the civil service rose at an annual rate of 4.7%, while the increase in defence was 4.3%. But the average for Gardaí fell 3.1% to €1,208.50 a week. When overtime was excluded, however, there was an average increase of 0.6% to €1,099.25 for Gardaí.

the point being their wages fell by 3.1% so far

starbelgrade

The average public sector wage is €50k compared to €38k in the private sector & the unions are calling on a round the board series of tax increases? GET OUT OF IT! They've got their pensions, job security & benchmarking on top of that - GET OUT! Then you have the unions trying to fool people into thinking that their national day of protest is for the good of the country.. GET THE F*CK OUT OF IT!

For some interesting reading and research on the public sector pay, Ronan Lyons has a good article here....

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

TCP/IP_King

starbelgrade wrote: »

....
For some interesting reading and research on the public sector pay, Ronan Lyons has a good article here.... http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

I hope you read the commentary - kind of waters down the writers original argument.

starbelgrade

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

I hope you read the commentary - kind of waters down the writers original argument.

I didn't before, but now after having read some, I see what you mean! If only we could find that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

Still annoyed though at the ICTU trying to hoodwink the general public.

victor11

i'm browned off with all this talk of frontlnie workers... Yes I respect the firefighters, nurses, army??, gardai, teachers (& all those that hold a belief that their job is more valuable than others.......not) but i also have as much respect for the clerical workers, dog wardens, bin collectors, child protection social workers, litter wardens, parks attendants, etc.... im sick of the so called 'frontline workers' hogging the debate.. surely all public service workers are essential??? the fact is that the 'frontline workers' are the most highly paid (bar the senior grades) in Europe - FACT. Now please please stop using the 'we're lying our lives on the line every day' & we're over worked & we've paid enough... You chose that career for a reason!! (not as a 'calling').... the clerical worker on working the hatch gets as much (if not more) abuse than the 'frontline workers'....

irish_bob

victor11 wrote: »

i'm browned off with all this talk of frontlnie workers... Yes I respect the firefighters, nurses, army??, gardai, teachers (& all those that hold a belief that their job is more valuable than others.......not) but i also have as much respect for the clerical workers, dog wardens, bin collectors, child protection social workers, litter wardens, parks attendants, etc.... im sick of the so called 'frontline workers' hogging the debate.. surely all public service workers are essential??? the fact is that the 'frontline workers' are the most highly paid (bar the senior grades) in Europe - FACT. Now please please stop using the 'we're lying our lives on the line every day' & we're over worked & we've paid enough... You chose that career for a reason!! (not as a 'calling').... the clerical worker on working the hatch gets as much (if not more) abuse than the 'frontline workers'....

placing the so called FRONTLINE alliance out front and centre is just typical of the cynical tactics employed by the unions , by having nuses and guards at the forefront of thier campagin against cuts , they are banking on the public to fall for this pull at the heartstrings exercise , the reality is that thier can be no sacred cows , no area can be exempt from cuts , especially when our nurses and guards are so incredibly well paid in the 1st place

TCP/IP_King

irish_bob wrote: »

... they are banking on the public to fall for this pull at the heartstrings exercise , the reality is that thier can be no sacred cows ...

Take a trip north or south of the Liffey around 10pm this Saturday evening, head up to James' hospital around 2am on Sunday morning, then come back and edit that post.

TCP/IP_King

starbelgrade wrote: »

... Still annoyed though at the ICTU trying to hoodwink the general public.

There's hoodwinking on both sides.

For the export sector to prosper, the relative cost of doing business in Ireland has to fall. While this must include efforts to reduce the cost of domestic inputs (energy, business services), the central component in cost reduction inevitably requires a reduction in the level of domestic wages across the economy.

Crack the biggest group first, then pick off the rest.

Divide et impera.

victor11

I've been norht & south of the liffey and yes... it's a hard place and tough work...I've also been in James' as a casualty of random violence (in UCD) at 2am.. but the argument remains - nurses, guards, & the 'frontline woorkers' chose thier respective careers... if it's that bad - go find another job!

irish_bob

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Take a trip north or south of the Liffey around 10pm this Saturday evening, head up to James' hospital around 2am on Sunday morning, then come back and edit that post.

a predictable response yet one which is entirely bogus , so your baschically saying that nurses and guards are worth any money , that we should hand them a blank cheque , let me ask you something , do police in downtown london or amsterdam or nurses in machester or rotterdam not face the same challenged as nurses or guards do in ireland

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

Darragh29 I believe you used to talk a fair bit of sense from what I have seen on these forums, but in this thread I believe you appear to have lost the plot.

Your argument is that certain people's salary should not be cut since they may have a large mortgage or they may have a large family ?
You even bring in car repayments & BIK into the discussion.
BTW BIK should not be that much if he was using the car a lot, but it is crippling if he is not doing the mileage.

You appear then to target people that didn't run out and buy an over priced property, thus signing up for long term large repayments that can become crippping if they suffer loss in income or interest rates rise massively.
You claim the non buyers are the reason for the landlords and speculators that helped drive up property prices :mad:
The reason for the speculators/multi proeprty landlords is the government inaction or rather postive actions to allow them operate.

People have to take personal responsibility for their actions and if you decided to pay huge amount for a house, didn't properly stress test repayment capbilities, bought new car(s) or decided to have half a dozen kids, then don't expect the rest of us who didn't to compensate you for doing so. :mad:
Why should we all, through our taxes, subsidise someone's lifestyle and life decisions ?

Your friend decided to buy a property, a property in a managed estate, did he work out how he would manage his repayments if interest rates went up a lot or if he had hit in income ?
It appears from what you say about his situation, he didn't truly stress test his capability to repay.
Did he buy all new furniture straight away for his property ?
What is the credit union loan for ?
Sorry, but as other posters have stated if you live beyond your means then it is your own fault.

He is able to pay his mortgage, he is able to pay his bills, but he is clearly one of the "coping class", and he is one of hundreds of thousands of people in this country who I would consider are just running to stand still. If you start taking more money out of these people's pockets, it will just result in less spending on things like going out the odd time, which will result in more job losses.

There is this notion that emerges on this forum very regularly that anyone who bought a property in the last ten years and might be finding things difficult now, has been, or still is, clearly living beyond their means.

There is nothing more human I think than acting on the desire to own your own place, possibly start a family and live in peace. Even animals that we are apparently more complicated and advanced than, pick a spot that they will call their own, where other animals are not welcome and which they will fight to protect.

In the case of humans, where entities like a government, a cohort of developers and a corrupt banking system conspire to deprive a person of the ability to buy a place that they can call their own, then I think that there is no more a human reaction than to try to overcome those obstacles and continue on your way.

This is what people who might have struggled to buy a house in the last few years are gulilty of, acting on an inherently human or not even human instinct but an instinct than exists within most intelligent life on this planet.

This instinct served us well for most of our existance on earth, but all of a sudden, it was hijacked by vested interests and now a few people who through a completely different set of circumstances didn't buy a house, are now all very smug because by a funny coincidence, they find themselves outside the problem, not through wisdom or insight as many of them now like to claim...

mloc

Darragh29 wrote: »

This instinct served us well for most of our existance on earth, but all of a sudden, it was hijacked by vested interests and now a few people who through a completely different set of circumstances didn't buy a house, are now all very smug because by a funny coincidence, they find themselves outside the problem, not through wisdom or insight as many of them now like to claim...

How anyone could have taken out huge mortgages (some even 100% + of house value) in what was clearly a massively inflated housing market without doing serious research into what that entailed is beyond me.

victor11

BTW - If u walk north or south of the Liffey at 2200hrs.... u'll b as safe as anywhere else in IR - as there'll be no Guards to be seen arressting the drunken layabouts & heroin dealers/addicts plying their trade on the liffey boardwalk. what about the 6 'members' posted to O'Connell St fulltime????? What are they doing?

TCP/IP_King wrote: »

Take a trip north or south of the Liffey around 10pm this Saturday evening, head up to James' hospital around 2am on Sunday morning, then come back and edit that post.

starbelgrade

mloc wrote: »

How anyone could have taken out huge mortgages (some even 100% + of house value) in what was clearly a massively inflated housing market without doing serious research into what that entailed is beyond me.

I agree entirely with Darragh on this one - I mean, who the f*ck does "serious research" or indeed market analysis when buying a home? Some, but not a lot (clearly).

Most people are, or were, at the time, too busy working to provide for themselves & their families to even have time to think about these things. Not everyone is David McWilliams, not everyone understands economics & not everyone has Eddie Hobbs as a personal monetary advisor. People are people.

irish_bob

victor11 wrote: »

BTW - If u walk north or south of the Liffey at 2200hrs.... u'll b as safe as anywhere else in IR - as there'll be no Guards to be seen arressting the drunken layabouts & heroin dealers/addicts plying their trade on the liffey boardwalk. what about the 6 'members' posted to O'Connell St fulltime????? What are they doing?

thier on the M50 or the navan road pulling for no tax displayed

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

There is this notion that emerges on this forum very regularly that anyone who bought a property in the last ten years and might be finding things difficult now, has been, or still is, clearly living beyond their means.

There is nothing more human I think than acting on the desire to own your own place, possibly start a family and live in peace. Even animals that we are apparently more complicated and advanced than, pick a spot that they will call their own, where other animals are not welcome and which they will fight to protect.

There were a hell of a lot of people who jumped on the property ladder in the last 10 years, who did it solely on borrowing, with zero savings behind them.
Then they immediately borrowed more to fully furnish the place and then they borrowed for their multiple holdiays and new cars.
And saying otherwise is completly ignoring what with on.
These people were living beyond their means 7/8 years ago.
Of course the cheap credit merry go round allowed them to do this, but when that disappeared they are the ones left with no jocks on.

BS, it is not an inherently human thing, it is an inherently IRISH and BRITISH thing to do.
Lots of nations have very low house owning populations.
Granted they have authorities that actaully look after tenant rights unlike ours who look after no ones rights.

Darragh29 wrote: »

In the case of humans, where entities like a government, a cohort of developers and a corrupt banking system conspire to deprive a person of the ability to buy a place that they can call their own, then I think that there is no more a human reaction than to try to overcome those obstacles and continue on your way.

This is what people who might have struggled to buy a house in the last few years are gulilty of, acting on an inherently human or not even human instinct but an instinct than exists within most intelligent life on this planet.

This instinct served us well for most of our existance on earth, but all of a sudden, it was hijacked by vested interests and now a few people who through a completely different set of circumstances didn't buy a house, are now all very smug because by a funny coincidence, they find themselves outside the problem, not through wisdom or insight as many of them now like to claim...

They made us do it is your whole argument.

How come many humans round the world don't own property.
Perhaps you should broaden your perspective and visit say Germany or Sweden.
There are little things called choice and susbequent to that responsibility.
The latter word is bandied about these days and even rarer does anyone take any for their actions.
A lot of people saw their mates, relatives etc doing well out of property and wanted a piece of the action, another bunch blindly belived the myth that property would always increase and they had to get on the ladder.
The only ones I have pity for that ones who really had to buy a house, because of growing family or specific family needs e.g disbaility, etc.

It is a bit rich labelling the non buyers as smug, when for the preceeding 10 years it was the ones on the mythical property ladder who were the smug ones and it was often thrown in the non owners faces about how we were losers because we weren't on the ladder.
Jeeze you were often viewed as a dead end loser because you didn't own somewhere and conversly you were woreshipped as a king if you had a few places, even better if some were abroad.

starbelgrade wrote: »

I agree entirely with Darragh on this one - I mean, who the f*ck does "serious research" or indeed market analysis when buying a home? Some, but not a lot (clearly).

Most people are, or were, at the time, too busy working to provide for themselves & their families to even have time to think about these things. Not everyone is David McWilliams, not everyone understands economics & not everyone has Eddie Hobbs as a personal monetary advisor. People are people.

Complete BS.
Some I bet spent more time picking out a car than checking out a property.
Some people frigged off to Florida or Bulgaria for a weekend and bought property.
It is not bloody economics of the EU, it is working out whether I can afford to pay the bloody mortgage if interests rates go up a few points or if my salary drops. :mad:
People were gullible in believing what mortgage lenders and estate agents told them becuase it suited them to believe it.

Also it is a thing called common sense to wonder if it is a bit daft paying 400,000 for a townhouse outside some town 50 miles form Dublin when the only real work is in Dublin and that same money would buy you house in Greater London :rolleyes:

These same people who couldn't be ars*d working out what would happen to their repayments if their circumstances changed drastically are propably also the ones that voted bertie back in I bet.

I'd agree with jmayo..except to say hindsight always makes great foresight and greed except for the sensibly clever blacks out most foresight when it gets the wind under it.
I'm of the view that people are inherently greedy and I'd agree that in Britain and Ireland we seem to excell at it.

Playing a blame game is futile when you understand that - because basically everybody is to blame.

bangersandmash

starbelgrade wrote: »

I agree entirely with Darragh on this one - I mean, who the f*ck does "serious research" or indeed market analysis when buying a home? Some, but not a lot (clearly).

Most people are, or were, at the time, too busy working to provide for themselves & their families to even have time to think about these things.

Darragh definitely has a point about blame here. But do you think it's unusual to invest some serious time to research a decision that is going to affect the rest of your life? Any major financial decision should be taken with caution.

And is time really the key obstacle? As Jmayo points out, unfortunately many people seem to put more thought into choosing a car or spend years planning an elaborate wedding. It's a question of priorities - a decision like taking out a large mortgage will have massive implications for people's ability to provide for themselves & their families.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd agree with jmayo..except to say hindsight always makes great foresight and greed except for the sensibly clever blacks out most foresight when it gets the wind under it.
I'm of the view that people are inherently greedy and I'd agree that in Britain and Ireland we seem to excell at it.

Playing a blame game is futile when you understand that - because basically everybody is to blame.

Agree about the greed, but don't start going down the avenue that pat carey tried to do on Marian Finucane Show the other day when he said that hindsight was great.
It wasn't hindsight, enough people saw it and they were ignored, ridiculed even by the leader of our country, that sleeveen gob***e bertie.

For once Marian actually was copped on enough to say it wasn't hindsight, that lots of people, including the subject of the conversation David McWilliams, had foreseen the mess and the housing bubble.
Thus what carey was mouthing was wrong.

If they boll***s aren't pulled up on it they will keep mouthing this sh**e about how no one saw this coming.

I, and a couple of friends, as far back as 2002 were claiming Irish house prices were too high.
I was told by developer friend that if it was up to people like me and my supposed hero/mentor McWilliams nothing would ever be done and we were downplaying the market and holding back progress.
Sound familiar to what bertie labelled the whingers as he called them.

Not all of us are to blame and that opinion pi**es me off :mad::mad:

We do need to blame people and I am not talking about the eejits that signed up for huge mortgages and maxed their credit cards, but the people who created the mess.
We still have the same government ministers, almost the same incestous bankers and shag all major changes in regulation.
We still have the same Dept of Finance officals who couldn't forecast a surplus and the same central bank.
Yeah a couple of heads walked with bulging payoffs.

If we do not have a clearout it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth for those of us footing the bill.

A great example of how things are still the same is how richie boucher is head of BOI, a state backed enterprise now, when he was in charge of lending during the boom time when the bank was sunk ?

AIB want to pull the same stunt.
How dare they, how f***ing dare they dictate anything, bar grovel at the ministers feet, and by extension the taxpayers, in gratitude for the fact that they aren't bankrupt and closed like any normal enterprise would be if they acted so wrecklessly. :mad:

If we do not kick these people out, jail a few and possibly formulate a new law on the statute books which deems anything that endangers the economic viability of the state a criminal offence.
Ah but here comes the refrain we need to see due process.

If we can't be bothered dealing with rapists and child molestors, I can't wait to see what will happen to fitzpatrick, drumm, fingelton and the board/executives of IL&P. :rolleyes: