Halve Dole for Under 24s

erictheviking

How much would halving the dole for under 24's save? I'm sure they would just move out of their parents houses and claim rent allowance and cost the state even more. Its the rent allowance that should be halved. House prices have almost halved why haven't rent allowances? This would surely force landlords to lower rents.
I don't agree with some of the comments on here calling people lazy. OK some people just don't want to work but most do. I can rent in a major City like London for half the price of here.

ei.sdraob

erictheviking wrote: »

I can rent in a major City like London for half the price of here.

off you go so

but you wont get dole half as generous as here there

erictheviking

ei.sdraob wrote: »

off you go so

but you wont get dole half as generous as here there

Thats an intelligent answer.....must be a landlord speaking:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

erictheviking wrote: »

Thats an intelligent answer.....must be a landlord speaking:rolleyes:

me a landlord not at all

just stating the facts

theres a reason why thing are cheaper just about everywhere else

both welfare and income is less just about everywhere else too

both are related


UK would be a good example of above compared to Ireland

Jemmy

amacachi wrote: »

Disgraceful if they do it. Surely a bloody 5% cut across the board would save more (and I think 5% is on the low side too)? I know plenty of people in their early 20s who've done more honest work than 40 and 50 year olds already but because of their age they're being penalised? It's a total bull****. Just another "**** you" to the young in this country who haven't been perfect up til now.

Before I get my head cut off I totally agree with this, I've worked my ass off since I was 16 (24 now) and paid my tax etc, everyone deserves what they are entitled too...

BUT

I know a 22yr old who was living at home with his parents had no debts/bills/rent etc to pay, granted he had no savings but he was getting the full dole each week, 200 or 204 whatever it is. I think for someone in that position there is no push to get up off their ass and get a job when their getting 200 quid a wk for doing nothing. You could VERY easily live off that a week and socialise at the wknds. I understand some people at that age are in different situations etc but I think it should definitely be reviewed in some cases.


*Oh just realised there was 19pages could be totally behind here but giving my 2cents anyway!

Shea O'Meara

It is. It's means tested on a person by person basis. That guy living at home would not be getting the full rate I can assure you. It takes into account who you are living with, you have to prove your outgoings (rent etc.).

SLUSK

I say abolish the dole for all and let people live on their savings instead. If you don't have any savings well tough luck!

major bill

Jemmy wrote: »

Before I get my head cut off I totally agree with this, I've worked my ass off since I was 16 (24 now) and paid my tax etc, everyone deserves what they are entitled too...

BUT

I know a 22yr old who was living at home with his parents had no debts/bills/rent etc to pay, granted he had no savings but he was getting the full dole each week, 200 or 204 whatever it is. I think for someone in that position there is no push to get up off their ass and get a job when their getting 200 quid a wk for doing nothing. You could VERY easily live off that a week and socialise at the wknds. I understand some people at that age are in different situations etc but I think it should definitely be reviewed in some cases.


*Oh just realised there was 19pages could be totally behind here but giving my 2cents anyway!

yea but do you actually realise what sitting on your arse all day with nothing to do does to a person mentally?:eek:

id rather be working!!

Jemmy

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It is. It's means tested on a person by person basis. That guy living at home would not be getting the full rate I can assure you. It takes into account who you are living with, you have to prove your outgoings (rent etc.).

I know it's means tested but not very well, and I can assure you he was getting the full mount.

major bill wrote: »

yea but do you actually realise what sitting on your arse all day with nothing to do does to a person mentally?:eek:

id rather be working!!

Oh I know I was on it myself earlier this year for a short time and I nearly lost the plot!

crossmolinalad

heavy theat here and really gone off topic but want to give my reactions on some things here
im not quoting because its a little hard to find it back


yeahh renting is more expensive than have a mortgage
mine is just 390 eu a month get mortgage interest relief for
it

because were still building / renovate we rent a house to for 100 a week
and yes i get rent allowance for it 80 euro a week

before i got unemployed we have two credit cards one of 5000 eu and one of 10000 eu = was almost paid off
at the moment we live and pay everything with creditcards and pay it off with the full weekly sw payments
so whats wrong with that???
we keep the irish economy rolling
we can go out 2 a month pay all of our bills

yes we made cut backs
internet eircom tel 68 euro to 3 32 eu
2 monthly esb bill from 285 eu to yes 45 eu per 2 months
and more of such things

im for one and a half year unemployed now
live in the west and almost impossible to find a job
im not a lazy **** what some people here suggesting
at the moment here u have more chances to win the lotto then finding a job over here
wish i found one

another thing i ve read in this treat is foreigners
someone suggested if they are unemployed sent them back
stupid because if we should do that why not should other countries doing the same
sent all the unemployed irish from all over europe back to ireland
if they do i think we getting in a really big financial mess

crossmolinalad

ohh forgotten something
i wish they had a sw system like the dutch or french
overthere u get 70% of your last wages and after a year u get
"jsa" 1100 eu per 4 weeks
then i had a lot more then now

Irishrossoblu

crossmolinalad wrote: »

ohh forgotten something
i wish they had a sw system like the dutch or french
overthere u get 70% of your last wages and after a year u get
"jsa" 1100 eu per 4 weeks
then i had a lot more then now

So you were on the dole in Holland and France too? Would you not find a country that has even better SW system and try there next. Norway have a great one, and Ryanair fly direct. Faif point about sending all the Irish unemployed back here. We would be worse off.

Ps. I know times are hard for you, but punctuation is free!

optocynic

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It is. It's means tested on a person by person basis. That guy living at home would not be getting the full rate I can assure you. It takes into account who you are living with, you have to prove your outgoings (rent etc.).

Then it will no doubt be a useless measure! The lazy people it is attempting to target are really quiet resorceful once cornered.. They will weasle their way out of taking a hit, through the usual lies..

Pity they don't show the same conviction in their job seeking!

optocynic

major bill wrote: »

yea but do you actually realise what sitting on your arse all day with nothing to do does to a person mentally?:eek:

id rather be working!!

Well, that is you. And I salute your integrity!
But, it is a fact (disagree if you want), but there are plenty of lazy skangers that love to sit at home doing sweet FA!
They probably have a 40 inch plasma and a Nintendo Wii to play with all day anyway!

Riskymove

SLUSK wrote: »

I say abolish the dole for all and let people live on their savings instead. If you don't have any savings well tough luck!

what about the people who have not got a chance to work like people just finishing school/college and therefroe could not generate any savings?

optocynic

Riskymove wrote: »

what about the people who have not got a chance to work like people just finishing school/college and therefroe could not generate any savings?

I think he is suggesting that we have them executed... or something!
A bit severe..

I do think though, as simplistic as it seems, that if welfare was drastically slashed.. or even better had a half-life... that MORE people would be working.

And more people working, means more spending... more spoending means more wealth... and more wealth means more people working..

Are we starting to see a pattern emerge here?

dan_d

Up north the dole is 76 pounds every 2 weeks.
We haven't a leg to stand on.

mikeym

Non eu nationals should get no hand outs unless they can prove they have been working 3 years or over.

Sort out the long term unemployed people theres some people out there who never worked a day in their life.

Maebh

Really, one should disregard all anecdotal evidence. I could give you plenty of my experiences, but I don't think that things like "I know a bloke who..." or "I heard that..." or "Well, that's not the way it was for me..." should convince anybody in a debate.

The thing is, under-24's are adults. They may not always have the same outgoings as older people do, but they are full, adult citizens of this country and, as such, that entitles them to some protection by the state.

The social welfare in Ireland is not enough to live luxuriously. I don't care what anybody says, if you are legit in your claim, and are trying to find a job, you cannot afford a lot of things. Food, rent, bills, that stretches your limits. Not enough for a car, say buh-bye to a lot of opportunities. Not enough for new clothes, say buh-bye to making a good impression on prospective employers. Not enough to save up and leave the country, thus ridding the state of your burdensome self.

And how is it, tell me, that those at the top layers of society can only be incentivised by giving them bonuses, while those at the bottom can only be incentivised by cutting their pay.

One more thing, has anybody considered the possibility that, when you say "It's not worth working if you're on the dole, therefore lower the dole" that there's another alternative?
A fair society whereby one can work and earn a suitable standard of living. If the dole is too close to minimum wage, that doesn't mean lower the dole, it means the min. wage is an insult.

optocynic

Maebh wrote: »

A fair society whereby one can work and earn a suitable standard of living. If the dole is too close to minimum wage, that doesn't mean lower the dole, it means the min. wage is an insult.

I think our minimum wage is far too high here. Yet another reason why we will not see much more investment in Ireland. We are no longer competitive.

Both welfare and minimum wage need to fall.. as do all salaries... and hence all prices.

Maebh

optocynic wrote: »

I think our minimum wage is far too high here. Yet another reason why we will not see much more investment in Ireland. We are no longer competitive.

Both welfare and minimum wage need to fall.. as do all salaries... and hence all prices.

Investment shouldn't need to rely on min. wage jobs. Investment should be about educating people, about creating well-paid jobs in sectors like broadband, technology, etc. We're not competitive, but we're sure as hell not doing anything to become so.

Cutting welfare and/or min. wage is just not just the wrong way of going about things for economic reasons, I also feel it's morally wrong. Making targets of the less well-off is wrong. But y'know, there's plenty of people here who seem to feel that anybody unemployed deserves no help. I just don't understand that.

optocynic

Maebh wrote: »

Investment shouldn't need to rely on min. wage jobs. Investment should be about educating people, about creating well-paid jobs in sectors like broadband, technology, etc. We're not competitive, but we're sure as hell not doing anything to become so.

Cutting welfare and/or min. wage is just not just the wrong way of going about things for economic reasons, I also feel it's morally wrong. Making targets of the less well-off is wrong. But y'know, there's plenty of people here who seem to feel that anybody unemployed deserves no help. I just don't understand that.

If the minimum wage is high, it causes the 'educated' jobs to be too high also.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

To say that unemployed people deserve no help is wrong. The newly unemployed, due to the crisis, should be protected, and possible paid even more than they are getting.

This is where my arguement for a welfare rate Half-Life comes in. The longer you are unemployed, the less you get.
I would also push for a workfair implementation.

optocynic

optocynic wrote: »

I think our minimum wage is far too high here. Yet another reason why we will not see much more investment in Ireland. We are no longer competitive.

Both welfare and minimum wage need to fall.. as do all salaries... and hence all prices.

What kind of investment would require not only lots of minimum wage people, but people making less than the current minimum wage? Doesn't sound like much of an investment to me unless you're talking about sweatshops or some such.


The JSA NEEDS to be cut for everyone as far as I'm concerned. JSB should stay the same.
If you've paid towards your year on the dole you get the full amount. If you're straight out of college/school and havn't had a job then you should not be entitled to over 200 euro. It's a disgrace that JSA is equal to JSB at the moment.

optocynic

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

What kind of investment would require not only lots of minimum wage people, but people making less than the current minimum wage? Doesn't sound like much of an investment to me unless you're talking about sweatshops or some such.


The JSA NEEDS to be cut for everyone as far as I'm concerned. JSB should stay the same.
If you've paid towards your year on the dole you get the full amount. If you're straight out of college/school and havn't had a job then you should not be entitled to over 200 euro. It's a disgrace that JSA is equal to JSB at the moment.

See my post above on the relationship between an inflated minimum wage and other salaries.

On the Job seekers allowance... I couldn't agree more..

Maebh

optocynic wrote: »

If the minimum wage is high, it causes the 'educated' jobs to be too high also.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

To say that unemployed people deserve no help is wrong. The newly unemployed, due to the crisis, should be protected, and possible paid even more than they are getting.

This is where my arguement for a welfare rate Half-Life comes in. The longer you are unemployed, the less you get.
I would also push for a workfair implementation.

The idea for a welfare half-life is good, sort of. In theory. But the thing is, there are so many people losing their jobs, and so few jobs being created, that there's this huge problem with getting people off the dole. So then you'll have people stuck on welfare being slowly left with less and less money, despite seeking a job.
You're right, investment's needed. So is educating people. So, I reckon, train people. <i>Really</i> train people, not the Fás and level-5 stuff that's already reaching its limits with the sudden influx of people joining schemes. Give people real opportunity to earn money for the country.

optocynic

Maebh wrote: »

The idea for a welfare half-life is good, sort of. In theory. But the thing is, there are so many people losing their jobs, and so few jobs being created, that there's this huge problem with getting people off the dole. So then you'll have people stuck on welfare being slowly left with less and less money, despite seeking a job.
You're right, investment's needed. So is educating people. So, I reckon, train people. <i>Really</i> train people, not the Fás and level-5 stuff that's already reaching its limits with the sudden influx of people joining schemes. Give people real opportunity to earn money for the country.

I agree with the training people. It is a given.
But what does it really mean. Is having free education not what training people is? We want to have a knowledge based economy (and we should have one),

and free(ish) third level was a step in this direction... now we are moving backwards.

If a fire is lit under people with falling welfare... jobs will appear, particularly if wages and costs have reduced, allowing for profit and success. At least, that is what I believe.

Maebh

optocynic wrote: »

I agree with the training people. It is a given.
But what does it really mean. Is having free education not what training people is? We want to have a knowledge based economy (and we should have one),

and free(ish) third level was a step in this direction... now we are moving backwards.

If a fire is lit under people with falling welfare... jobs will appear, particularly if wages and costs have reduced, allowing for profit and success. At least, that is what I believe.

Huzzah! And here we have the crux of the argument! "Jobs will appear"...

Tell me, how will jobs simply appear? They haven't so far, but not because wages are too high...Who in their right mind would invest in Ireland right now?

Oh, and "free" education only goes so far. You have over-trained people fighting for jobs at the moment that previously students would've had, to pay themselves through college, and I know that people have been forced to quit uni from a lack of money.
And there's precious little someone who's already been to college can do if they're unemployed. You go on a scheme, but it's below your academic level. If you're young, they're practically forcing people onto schemes/training which should be there for people who really need it. There are a lot of smart young people out of work at the moment, and the government's practically saying "get out of the country, we don't really need you"...

97i9y3941

cutting the welfare is sick and attacking the vunerable in society,im sorry but if we hear so much insulting about theres no money in the country but there was some found under the carpet to set up nama,people who are on the breadline dont get expensives paid etc,ok there are some generous allowances for anyone who maybe single and have no kids and living on their own,but cutting these sort of things on people who really need them is disgraceful whilst more likely they will tax the oridinary tax payer again to make up the public sector pay,who are already bogged down in work and taking weeks to process welfare entitlements...

thebman

Sorry but people that say the dole needs to be cut aren't doing so because they are cruel.

Look at the countries budget and look at what we spend most on.

One of the largest areas of expenditure is social welfare and even if we removed all social welfare we wouldn't balance our books.

So suggesting we reform it is not cruel, its logical. Suggesting we don't touch it is madness and will result in loss of services/jobs elsewhere.

Maximoo

I applaud this move by the government. I persoanlly know several people under 25 who have never worked a day in their life and are not bothered to get a job but are happy enough to claim the dole. As well as this a guy who works as a builder for my brother in law is getting €120 for a days work, 5 days a week and he is STILL claiming the dole. It annoys me so much I'd be tempted to report him.

My 19 year old brother was let go from his job after a year working for them. Fair enough he had to claim the dole to support himself but he's been on it almost a full year and has not applied for a single job. He has no responsibilities. No rent to pay, no children to support, no bills. The money he gets is spent on nights out, clothes and computer games.

As well as it being cut for under 25s the job seekers allowence should be means tested for sure.

I'm not saying everyone who is on the dole should not be entitled to it or is a waster. A lot of people depend on it just to keep a roof over their and their familys head or to feed the family. But just in my experience, everyone I know that is on the dole is a waster.