Halve Dole for Under 24s

Shea O'Meara

Public sector pay increases and social wefare rates are set to reflect the cost of living, not how well or bad off the economy is doing.
If the cost of living has dropped dramatically in the past year or so, I could see an argument for freezing or reducing wages in the public sector, cuting welfare.

If people spent money they didn't have or made investments in shares or property which didn't pan out, that's unfortunate. But that's the nature of such activities.

murphaph

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Public sector pay increases and social wefare rates are set to reflect the cost of living, not how well or bad off the economy is doing.
If the cost of living has dropped dramatically in the past year or so, I could see an argument for freezing or reducing wages in the public sector, cuting welfare.

If people spent money they didn't have or made investments in shares or property which didn't pan out, that's unfortunate. But that's the nature of such activities.

The cost of living is falling (see CSO figures) and will/would fall even faster if public sector wages and social welfare were cut too. Retailers would have no option but to cut prices further and put more pressure on their (mostly) UK suppliers to do the same.

In any case, the tax receipts simply aren't there to keep paying out such sums and we know from (bitter) experience that we can't tax our way out of a recession, so the only other option is cuts in expenditure.

stepbar

Economy 101. The private sector creates the wealth the public sector spends it. The private sector tax take is down and therefore some thing has to give. It's either paycuts in the public sector or job losses (which would cost more money). Something has to give.

Jemmy

old boy wrote: »

jemmy, the question every one would like answered is where is the feckin JOB.

I know the jobs are few and far between, but I'm talking about the people who wouldn't even bother and haven't bothered when jobs have and doo appear. There are ppl out there quite happy living off the dole because they are getting enough to have a comfortable life.

murphaph

stevewr1 wrote: »

Where are the ****ing jobs u speak of..eh?

They'd be created with a cut in the minimum wage to match the cut in welfare. Not point in cutting one without the other.

_Kooli_

Jemmy wrote: »

I know the jobs are few and far between, but I'm talking about the people who wouldn't even bother and haven't bothered when jobs have and doo appear. There are ppl out there quite happy living off the dole because they are getting enough to have a comfortable life.

Nearly €1000 a month plus rent allowance and medical card. All tax free.

irish_bob

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Public sector pay increases and social wefare rates are set to reflect the cost of living, not how well or bad off the economy is doing.
If the cost of living has dropped dramatically in the past year or so, I could see an argument for freezing or reducing wages in the public sector, cuting welfare.

If people spent money they didn't have or made investments in shares or property which didn't pan out, that's unfortunate. But that's the nature of such activities.

hold on a minute , the cost of living is the same for people in the private sector yet they earn on average 30% less than those in the public sector and that is based on 2007 figures btw

murphaph

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Nearly €1000 a month plus rent allowance and medical card. All tax free.

...plus other benefits like free travel etc. It all adds up to a sum we simply can't afford anymore.

The dole should be about scraping by, not living comfortably or even close to it I'm afraid.

thebman

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Public sector pay increases and social wefare rates are set to reflect the cost of living, not how well or bad off the economy is doing.
If the cost of living has dropped dramatically in the past year or so, I could see an argument for freezing or reducing wages in the public sector, cuting welfare.

If people spent money they didn't have or made investments in shares or property which didn't pan out, that's unfortunate. But that's the nature of such activities.

The cost of living has fallen in the past year.

rents are down, mortgage repayments are down, cost of most foods is down etc...

About the only thing that has gone up in price are things that are run by the government or due to tax increases.

and the cost of living follows the average wage overall of an Irish person and demand so these prices are dropping due to employment loss, wage reductions and fall in demand due to people watching what they spend more and other factors for things like interest rates on mortgages etc...

So public sector wages should fall based on the cost of living and I'm sure once the spiral starts of public sector earning less leading to a fall in the price of services again then the public sector will be screaming to have their pay cut :pac:

Seriously you don't care if the cost of living goes down, you just don't want a pay cut. At least be honest about it. The government have no choice however as they will most likely have missed the target of being 20 billion in the red by 10 billion and be 30 billion in the red. Living in the clouds if you think that level of spending can continue. Its wage cuts or job losses in the public sector to make up that kind of money and reduction in services and a reduction in social welfare and bringing more people into the tax net and we will still be in the red after that all that I imagine. Wake up to the depth of the hole the country is in.

jojobrad

Long Onion wrote: »

No problem with it - there are jobs there for those who want them problem is that they are not attractive due to the rates paid by the welfare - give a real incentive to find work. I would be in favour of keeping the benefit higher for those who return to education though.

On behalf of the job seekers of Ireland, Where exactly are these jobs you're talking about ?

thebman

jojobrad wrote: »

On behalf of the job seekers of Ireland, Where exactly are these jobs you're talking about ?

There are feck all of them, anybody saying otherwise hasn't been unemployed recently.

It is ridiculous to suggest there are enough jobs out there for the unemployed but the reality is we are 30 billion in debt (well, we will make it to 30 before year end most likely) and welfare takes a lot of that money so it will have to come down.

At current rates there are some jobs not worth doing because of welfare pay rates but there aren't many of them around and there are still people willing to do them just to get out of the house.

murphaph

...which is why we need a cut in the minimum wage to at least the Eurozone average (preferably lower) to CREATE jobs.

thebman

murphaph wrote: »

...which is why we need a cut in the minimum wage to at least the Eurozone average (preferably lower) to CREATE jobs.

That is another point already. Some business could do with more staff but can't afford the wages and if minimum wage was lowered they could hire another person but dole has to come down with minimum wage or you'll make more on welfare than on minimum wage.

Then you have the almost 30 billion in debt thing

The name of this thread conflicts with the cost of living coming down, in my opinion, though.


Cutting 50% of the dole for everyone 24 and under just seems more like an attack to that age group in my eyes.


I'm sure everyone will happily agree that 20-24 year olds aren't exactly a majority in the country. Therefore, aren't out spending more money than people who are 25 and upwards.


It would seem to me that in order to help the cost of living in general come down, then a percentage should be decided upon (we'll say 10% for arguments sake), and 10% should be reduced from JSB, JSA, All the public sector related payments, minimum wage, etc. so the cost of everyday items would be forced down, too.


If you were a retailer, would you start to cut down on your prices because a small fraction of your customers can't afford to shop there anymore?

Not likely.

However, if a vast majority of your customer base couldn't afford to shop there any more, i don't think you'd be left with much choice but to deal with your pricing.

Slashing the income of your 20-24 year olds won't achieve all that much in my opinion. As i've said before, i believe the "better, fairer way" (as they say) is to pick a percentage (they can use a random number generator for all i care) and apply that percentage to everyone. If you kick everyone's ass at the same time, in the same way, then products and services have to fall in line, too, and everyone's still in the same boat, so there's no "how come I get this, and they get that" kind of argument.

Picking on a small number of people won't affect the whole country, and in turn, instead of everything eventually balancing out, it just puts that age group under more pressure.

That's my opinion anyway (and don't get me wrong, I'm well aware there are oh so many scumbags of all descriptions that fall into that age category that blow their money on drink and drugs, but there are also a decent few, too).

poppet84

There are jobs...it's just that every job that is advertised has thousands of applicants.Therefore you have to be the first one with the cv in!!I've applied to everything and anything even though I went to college for 5 years!I worked for 6.5 solid years throughout college and school.

People who are not unemployed don't understand and presume the younger people are wasters or not bothered to get a job.Having no job to focus on has been the worst time of my life,especially after killing myself working in college for all that time.So don't say there are jobs and that we don't want them because of our whooping 204euro a week!!!

I am 24,turn 25 in December so I don't think I will be affected but I feel so much for the people who will be.Not all under 24's are living with mammy and daddy and going out every weekend and blowing the dole!!!
One age group should not be targeted!!I'd rather they took a smaller amount off everyone else.

Before you start presuming certain characteristics of the jobseekers in this country....put yourself in their position!

cleveroli

looks to me like their (gov) trying to force all the youth to emigrate - why else would they pick on that age group?? Why not reduce the old age pension by a tenner a week? they still be getting over 200 a week - Im not being ageist( i hope to be old myself one day:rolleyes:) but when you hit 65 chances are you have the mortgage paid off - have savings - only have yourself and spouse to support - and if your town is anything like mine youll see that the hairdressers and cafes are full of the grey brigade as they are the only ones who have money to spend. It doesnt make sense that younger people who probably have a lot more committments are being targeted. Ive also noticed that there are lads going into get dole in the post office and they are driving vans and jeeps which have their company business on the sides ( I thought if you were self employed you cant get the dole?????) Im not on the dole myself, and I feel sorry for those who are and dont want to be - maybe the gov should set up a town task force who go into the post offices see whos in there - and weed out the ones who are screwing the system and then maybe there would be money for those who need it?

irish_bob

cleveroli wrote: »

looks to me like their (gov) trying to force all the youth to emigrate - why else would they pick on that age group?? Why not reduce the old age pension by a tenner a week? they still be getting over 200 a week - Im not being ageist( i hope to be old myself one day:rolleyes:) but when you hit 65 chances are you have the mortgage paid off - have savings - only have yourself and spouse to support - and if your town is anything like mine youll see that the hairdressers and cafes are full of the grey brigade as they are the only ones who have money to spend. It doesnt make sense that younger people who probably have a lot more committments are being targeted. Ive also noticed that there are lads going into get dole in the post office and they are driving vans and jeeps which have their company business on the sides ( I thought if you were self employed you cant get the dole?????) Im not on the dole myself, and I feel sorry for those who are and dont want to be - maybe the gov should set up a town task force who go into the post offices see whos in there - and weed out the ones who are screwing the system and then maybe there would be money for those who need it?

OAP,s in this country are of course redicolously spoiled , 232 per week which is trebble what they recieve in the uk , more or less free electricity , fuel allowance , medical card , free phone , free travel , that said , they are the most reliable voting bloc that fianna fail has and are twice as likely to vote as the under 24,s so i wouldnt blame even this goverment for not touching the old age pension with a barge pole , remember , you risk incurring the wrath of more than the grannys and grandads , as witnessed by the medical card public outcry last year , most of theese oldies have middle aged children who have thier eye on mammy and daddys inherritance and dont want it spent on pills or doctor bills or anything else for that matter

_Kooli_

irish_bob wrote: »

OAP,s in this country are of course redicolously spoiled , 232 per week which is trebble what they recieve in the uk , more or less free electricity , fuel allowance , medical card , free phone , free travel , that said , they are the most reliable voting bloc that fianna fail has and are twice as likely to vote as the under 24,s so i wouldnt blame even this goverment for not touching the old age pension with a barge pole , remember , you risk incurring the wrath of more than the grannys and grandads , as witnessed by the medical card public outcry last year , most of theese oldies have middle aged children who have thier eye on mammy and daddys inherritance and dont want it spent on pills or doctor bills or anything else for that matter

OAPs are not spoiled. I would bet most of them have more psri payments than you or i or anyone else in here. They have put in more hard graft in their lives than anyone in this thread.
Its time we looked after OAPs here instead of treating them like a liability once they stop working.

thebman

irish_bob wrote: »

OAP,s in this country are of course redicolously spoiled , 232 per week which is trebble what they recieve in the uk , more or less free electricity , fuel allowance , medical card , free phone , free travel , that said , they are the most reliable voting bloc that fianna fail has and are twice as likely to vote as the under 24,s so i wouldnt blame even this goverment for not touching the old age pension with a barge pole , remember , you risk incurring the wrath of more than the grannys and grandads , as witnessed by the medical card public outcry last year , most of theese oldies have middle aged children who have thier eye on mammy and daddys inherritance and dont want it spent on pills or doctor bills or anything else for that matter

Could be that they actually care about them too and don't just have their eye on inheritance.

It kind of hurts your point. Not everyone is that cold, I imagine most people aren't.

cleveroli

_Kooli_ wrote: »

OAPs are not spoiled. I would bet most of them have more psri payments than you or i or anyone else in here. They have put in more hard graft in their lives than anyone in this thread.
Its time we looked after OAPs here instead of treating them like a liability once they stop working.

No one is suggesting taking the pension off them - just maybe a tenner!!!

My brother lost his job in March - he worked for 22 years his company is relocating to eastern europe. He has 3 kids all under 12 his wife gave up her job 4 years ago as the wage she got was less than she was paying in childcare - how much does he get from his stamps - 204 euro!!!!!!!! Yes for 5 people - hes entitled to nothing for his wife and kids cos in 2007 they bought a 2 bed cottage to do up and move into when they retired - its seen as an asset!!! even though its a wreck! he cant afford to do it up/ cant sell it/ has two mortgages and when he asked how his family is supposed to live on 204 a week he was told its the policy meanwhile his neighbour who is 71 has never worked a day in her life(not her fault, she stayed at home while the hubby worked), has free medical card/free fuel/free electricity/free phone/free travel - no mortgage and is getting more money than a family of five! My brother is heading to Manchester next week to see if he can get a job over there leavin his wife and kids behind - tell me whats fair about that - old age pensioners have to get something from the government thats not being debated by me- but if their medical costs heating costs electric and phone costs and travel are all covered that just leaves food and socialising costs - do they
need 230 a week for that?? If yes fine... but if all their doing is putting excess money into a savings account to be inherited then I can think of a better use for it...namely investing it back into job creation so my brother doesnt have to leave 3 kids without a father - and just to prove im not picking on the pensioners, I think its a bloody disgrace that the teachers are going on strike when they have the best jobs in the country(After TD's!!) All the holidays they get and they are still not happy - course they will be able to do a bit of Xmas shopping with the day off!! AM I BITTER - YOU BET YOUR AR*E:mad:

By the way if anyone has any suggestions re the situation my brother is in then please let me know - Ive rung citizens advice for him and they said there is nothing he can do - if he doesnt get the job in england i dont know whats goin to happen.:(

_Kooli_

cleveroli wrote: »

No one is suggesting taking the pension off them - just maybe a tenner!!!

My brother lost his job in March - he worked for 22 years his company is relocating to eastern europe. He has 3 kids all under 12 his wife gave up her job 4 years ago as the wage she got was less than she was paying in childcare - how much does he get from his stamps - 204 euro!!!!!!!! Yes for 5 people - hes entitled to nothing for his wife and kids cos in 2007 they bought a 2 bed cottage to do up and move into when they retired - its seen as an asset!!! even though its a wreck! he cant afford to do it up/ cant sell it/ has two mortgages and when he asked how his family is supposed to live on 204 a week he was told its the policy meanwhile his neighbour who is 71 has never worked a day in her life(not her fault, she stayed at home while the hubby worked), has free medical card/free fuel/free electricity/free phone/free travel - no mortgage and is getting more money than a family of five! My brother is heading to Manchester next week to see if he can get a job over there leavin his wife and kids behind - tell me whats fair about that - old age pensioners have to get something from the government thats not being debated by me- but if their medical costs heating costs electric and phone costs and travel are all covered that just leaves food and socialising costs - do they
need 230 a week for that?? If yes fine... but if all their doing is putting excess money into a savings account to be inherited then I can think of a better use for it...namely investing it back into job creation so my brother doesnt have to leave 3 kids without a father - and just to prove im not picking on the pensioners, I think its a bloody disgrace that the teachers are going on strike when they have the best jobs in the country(After TD's!!) All the holidays they get and they are still not happy - course they will be able to do a bit of Xmas shopping with the day off!! AM I BITTER - YOU BET YOUR AR*E:mad:

By the way if anyone has any suggestions re the situation my brother is in then please let me know - Ive rung citizens advice for him and they said there is nothing he can do - if he doesnt get the job in england i dont know whats goin to happen.:(

Why not take that tenner you want to steal from the OAPs out of the dole from those who havent paid at least 5 years PRSI.
Or what about taking it out of all those childrens allowance payments that people are getting, who dont need it.

I dont believe your story about your brother at all.
Nobody with a wife and 3 young kids, even if they were working would be forced to live on €204 a week. You are being a bit liberal with your info here. For example, you never mentioned childrens allowance. Im sure they get about €530 a month for that. Thats about €1430 a month tax free they get. Plus whatever else you left out.

If his SECOND house is seen as an asset then its worth more than he owes on it. SELL IT. If he has the right asking price of course he will be able to sell it.

Cleveroli, though I'm on welfare, and would obviously love for it to not be touched, I have a very difficult time believing your story.

In my knowledge, the only people who get it really hard off Welfare, are those who were/are self employed.


I agree with Kooli's post.

irish_bob

_Kooli_ wrote: »

OAPs are not spoiled. I would bet most of them have more psri payments than you or i or anyone else in here. They have put in more hard graft in their lives than anyone in this thread.
Its time we looked after OAPs here instead of treating them like a liability once they stop working.

we have a situation right now where a retired public servant beit a guard or a teacher or a civil servant of some kind can have a pension of up to 700 per week while still having access to a medical card , this to me is immoral when you have couples in thier thirties mortaged to thier eyes with young kids who have to pay 45 - 60 euro for visits to thier GP

_Kooli_

irish_bob wrote: »

we have a situation right now where a retired public servant beit a guard or a teacher or a civil servant of some kind can have a pension of up to 700 per week while still having access to a medical card , this to me is immoral when you have couples in thier thirties mortaged to thier eyes with young kids who have to pay 45 - 60 euro for visits to thier GP

Dont touch OAPs pensions. They have given their lives work to us, leave them in peace. Means test the medical card.

And i agree that GPs prices are excessive. Blame Mary Hearney.
I recently changed to another GP who charges €45 - from one who charged €60 and charged you twice if you had 2 different ailments in the one 15 minute visit.

irish_bob

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Dont touch OAPs pensions. They have given their lives work to us, leave them in peace. Means test the medical card.

And i agree that GPs prices are excessive. Blame Mary Hearney.
I recently changed to another GP who charges €45 - from one who charged €60 and charged you twice if you had 2 different ailments in the one 15 minute visit.

they tried to means test it a year ago , the country went nuts

_Kooli_

irish_bob wrote: »

they tried to means test it a year ago , the country went nuts

Its easily done.
Anyone with over x amount gets no medical card. Simple. Let the country go nuts. The medical card is cut or everyone, not picking on pensioners.

Now reducing their pension is specifically picking on pensioners.

murphaph

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Dont touch OAPs pensions. They have given their lives work to us

Bit OTT, no?

My mum is an OAP (she'd kill me for saying that) who still works full time and gets the full state pension. She says it herself it's a fcukin joke giving a full pension to someone who still works full time! She also says that even when she quits work the state pension is more than enough to live on as she has no mortgage. Just a few bills (all small, and even then they get assistance to pay them) to pay. It needs cutting. OAPs are just people too, nothing special about them.

_Kooli_

murphaph wrote: »

Bit OTT, no?

My mum is an OAP (she'd kill me for saying that) who still works full time and gets the full state pension. She says it herself it's a fcukin joke giving a full pension to someone who still works full time! She also says that even when she quits work the state pension is more than enough to live on as she has no mortgage. Just a few bills (all small, and even then they get assistance to pay them) to pay. It needs cutting. OAPs are just people too, nothing special about them.

So let her give what she feels she doesnt need to charity then.
If she does that you can believe her

cleveroli

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Why not take that tenner you want to steal from the OAPs out of the dole from those who havent paid at least 5 years PRSI.
Or what about taking it out of all those childrens allowance payments that people are getting, who dont need it.

I dont believe your story about your brother at all.
Nobody with a wife and 3 young kids, even if they were working would be forced to live on €204 a week. You are being a bit liberal with your info here. For example, you never mentioned childrens allowance. Im sure they get about €530 a month for that. Thats about €1430 a month tax free they get. Plus whatever else you left out.

If his SECOND house is seen as an asset then its worth more than he owes on it. SELL IT. If he has the right asking price of course he will be able to sell it.

Firstly, I dont steal from anyone :mad:- interesting though that youd rather take money from a child!! Secondly Im not a liar :mad:- I wish to god it wasnt true - yes they get childrens allowence but the mortgages on the two houses are 1800 a month so you do the maths - ALL HE GETS IS 204 AMONTH NO MEDICAL CARD OR ANYTHING ELSE - as you seem to have a lot of time on your hands check it out and then you can apologise (id also like to point out he worked for 22 years and his wife for 14 so they have paid their fair share of tax)- He bought the house in 2007 which was the top of the market -dont know what planet your living on but heres a newsflash - the housing market has collasped, his house is now worth 50,000 LESS than he paid for it and on top of that there are at least 2 housing estates in the area of NEW houses which have had their prices slashed what do you think buyers would choose - 2 bedroomed wreck or 3/4 bedroom new house???:rolleyes: They bought the house for their use NOT as an investment and at the time never thought hed lose a job he had for 22yrs! do you not think that he hasnt gone through all the options? Next time do your research before you accuse someone of lying - you have no bloody idea of what he and his family are going through and you obviously have no idea of what the social welfare dept is like - he'd have been better off drinking and smoking his wages instead of trying to better himself then he'd have the full rate and god knows what else handed to him.

cleveroli

_Kooli_ wrote: »

Its easily done.
Anyone with over x amount gets no medical card. Simple. Let the country go nuts. The medical card is cut or everyone, not picking on pensioners.

Now reducing their pension is specifically picking on pensioners.

But its ok to pick on mothers and kids with the childrens allowence, and on people in their 20's by halving their payments???? you need to get your priorities right!!! those kids and 20 somethings will hopefully get jobs that will pay towards YOUR pension....unless your already getting it?:rolleyes: