Halve Dole for Under 24s

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 10:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you think rent allowance is? it's paying someones mortgage :rolleyes:

how many long term unemployed get rent allowance for any length of time? they eventually get council hosing or can avail of affordable housing

just because someone was the bigger fool for buying into housing at peak of boom doesnt mean we have to help them out

bad enough billions are being stolen for NAMA

rents have fallen and are still falling across the board

seriously how about people learn to face up to bad financial decisions they made?

if they dont like it here that can emigrate and avail of the better welfare in other countries... oh wait :eek:

hahahahaha

23-10-2009 11:04am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

how many long term unemployed get rent allowance for any length of time? they eventually get council hosing or can avail of affordable housing

Have you got evidence to back this up? I know people who have been receiving rent allowance for years and years and told that because they are living in suitable accommodation they are unlikely to ever get a council house.

And when did we start talking about long term unemployed? people who are actively looking for jobs and may be unemployed for a year or so will not get a council house. And by the way, your tax is paying for these council houses

And when did we only start referring to people who bought a house during the boom? You decided to ignore my previous point on this.

Also

You can't get affordable housing if you are unemployed.

see affordable housing is still a mortgage see :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 11:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you got evidence to back this up? I know people who have been receiving rent allowance for years and years and told that because they are living in suitable accommodation they are unlikely to ever get a council house.

And when did we start talking about long term unemployed? people who are actively looking for jobs and may be unemployed for a year or so will not get a council house. And by the way, your tax is paying for these council houses

And when did we only start referring to people who bought a house during the boom? You decided to ignore my previous point on this.

Also

You can't get affordable housing if you are unemployed.

see affordable housing is still a mortgage see :rolleyes:

once again theres this thing called mortgage insurance

you loose your job you get money from insurance

no need to get the taxpayer involved

if you are buying a house, its a luxury since renting is cheaper, one should consider their finances and job security before getting a mortgage

oh i forgot, alot of people didnt, relying on the welfare system to fund your gaf is sickeningly wrong

well ooopsie do, hand back keys and declare bankrputcy

let the bank take the hit, they shouldn't have given a mortgage like that in first place

we should introduce a welfare system here like in other countries, where first year unemployed you get welfare == amount your last salary and then it halves every year after that

anonymous_joe · 23-10-2009 11:17am

I know lots of people living at home who've been entitled to the dole. The 200 quid is definitely more than enough for them.

I'd be worried about people under-24 with kids and stuff though.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 11:32am

This post has been deleted.

tallaght01 · 23-10-2009 11:33am

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I know lots of people living at home who've been entitled to the dole. The 200 quid is definitely more than enough for them.

I'd be worried about people under-24 with kids and stuff though.

It's only loads because their folks are paying the mortgage and for food etc. That was fine during the good times, but less people can afford to keep their 23 year old kids for free now.
It's not fair on their families.

fifth · 23-10-2009 11:44am

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where did you see this? Interesting. I'm not on the dole, but I think it should be means tested more stringently. People who need it are going to be hurt here, not the people who don't need it.

23-10-2009 11:46am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

once again theres this thing called mortgage insurance

you loose your job you get money from insurance

no need to get the taxpayer involved

if you are buying a house, its a luxury since renting is cheaper, one should consider their finances and job security before getting a mortgage

oh i forgot, alot of people didnt, relying on the welfare system to fund your gaf is sickeningly wrong

well ooopsie do, hand back keys and declare bankrputcy

let the bank take the hit, they shouldn't have given a mortgage like that in first place

we should introduce a welfare system here like in other countries, where first year unemployed you get welfare == amount your last salary and then it halves every year after that

You keep going on about rent being cheaper than a mortgage but no backup for this argument?

I'm not advocating that anyone's mortgage be paid by the state I am just arguing your ridiculous point that it would be better for the country for anyone who loses their jobs to hand back their house and claim rent allowance instead. It's nonsensical.

I do like your last point though, regarding lowering your social welfare allowances the longer you are unemployed. I agree with this one. Just a pity the government didn't implement this years ago, the country might be in a slightly better state.

Raskolnikov · 23-10-2009 11:48am

eoinbn wrote: »

Repeat after me:

"The dole is not suppose to pay my mortgage".

Rubbish.

If you've built up your PRSI payments, you're entitled to your dole and if you wanted to blow it up your nose, it's no one's business.

Peanut · 23-10-2009 11:50am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

...
if you are buying a house, its a luxury since renting is cheaper, one should consider their finances and job security before getting a mortgage

oh i forgot, alot of people didnt, relying on the welfare system to fund your gaf is sickeningly wrong

There's definitely something very dodgy about the idea of relying on social welfare to pay your mortage, at least in the long term.

I can't help but think that this would seem outrageous to many people in other European countries at least.

You can say that you're free to choose to spend your dole money however you wish, but let's not forget the original intent of the system. Which is to provide a social safety net for people, not to provide them with the means for a long term investment/gamble.

Permabear · 23-10-2009 11:54am

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 12:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You keep going on about rent being cheaper than a mortgage but no backup for this argument?

I'm not advocating that anyone's mortgage be paid by the state I am just arguing your ridiculous point that it would be better for the country for anyone who loses their jobs to hand back their house and claim rent allowance instead. It's nonsensical.

I do like your last point though, regarding lowering your social welfare allowances the longer you are unemployed. I agree with this one. Just a pity the government didn't implement this years ago, the country might be in a slightly better state.

fine

heres some facts for you

house prices q3 2009 (latest)
http://www.daft.ie/report/Daft-House-Price-Report-Q3-2009.pdf

rental q2 2009 (latest)
http://www.daft.ie/report/Daft-Rental-Report-Q2-2009.pdf

average houseprice €253,000, now there are no 100% mortgages nowadays but we can get close, and that deposit money needs to be raised anyways

so according to http://www.drcalculator.com/mortgage/ie/ a 250k mortgage (alot of people have mortgages much larger than this thanks to the bubble) over 30 years at a conservative 5% (god help if rates go up to their norms)

is €1350 a month

the average rent now is €800 a month

€1350 is a larger number than €800

hence renting is alot cheaper

Q.E.D

thebman · 23-10-2009 12:22pm

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Rubbish.

If you've built up your PRSI payments, you're entitled to your dole and if you wanted to blow it up your nose, it's no one's business.

True but no point coming out and saying the dole should be enough to pay your mortgage. You can spend what you get on servicing your mortgage if you want but thats up to you.

jonsnow · 23-10-2009 12:39pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

once again theres this thing called mortgage insurance

you loose your job you get money from insurance

Yeah for a while, then the mortgage insurance payments often run out.Especially if you are unemployed for a number of years.Its not the silver bullet you seem to think.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if you are buying a house, its a luxury since renting is cheaper,

At the moment it is.But over the lifetime of a person whos to say that this statement is true.I know my parents were far better off buying a house thirty years ago than they would have been if they had rented for that entire time and they could be evicted tomorrow.This isn,t Holland this is Ireland-our legal system isn,t exactly set up to protect people and their families who plan to rent for the rest of their natural lives

ei.sdraob wrote: »

one should consider their finances and job security before getting a mortgage

Yeah all those stupid solicitors,engineers,architects,quantity surveyors,stockbrokers and all the other white collar professionals that have been hit should have seen the biggest economic meltdown since the great depression coming.

murphaph · 23-10-2009 12:48pm

skearon wrote: »

Excellent idea, welfare was designed to be a safety net, somehow it became an entitlement, and now the chosen way of life for many people!

Idea should be extended to any healthy person on job seekers allowance for more than three years, while at the same time increasing job seekers benefit to 70% of previous years salary and extending it to 2 years

This is approaching the German system-70% of previous salary for one year then it gets reduced further in year 2. In year three you fall down to ArbeitslosengeldII (HartzIV) and that's a flat €351 per month plus rent paid in a small apartment (no more than 45 square metres for a single person) and health insurance paid by the state.

I would strongly advocate this system for Ireland too. Welfare needs to be seen as a very bad option which just about pays for the essentials. It should REALLY encourage you to look for a job, any job.

thebman · 23-10-2009 12:48pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah all those stupid solicitors,engineers,architects,quantity surveyors,stockbrokers and all the other white collar professionals that have been hit should have seen the biggest economic meltdown since the great depression coming.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that record levels of growth may not stay at that level for the next 40 years.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 12:50pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah for a while, then the mortgage insurance payments often run out.Especially if you are unemployed for a number of years.Its not the silver bullet you seem to think.
.

if you think you are gonna be unemployed for a number of years or job is risky dont get a mortgage

its such a simple concept its not funny

as i said im in process of building house with no mortgage, it can be done, just requires sound financial thinking, and yes i can loose my income in under 24 hours notice

hence why i turn down mortgage offers as recently as 2 weeks ago, a little bit of cop on and financial sense would do alot of people alot of good in this country

most people on the continent have no issues renting their whole lives, its just here we have this crazy must own home mentality which lead us into this bust

and lets not forget them hundreds of thousand who didnt bother getting a job at the peak, even when there were jobs everywhere, jobs that we had to import people to do

anonymous_joe · 23-10-2009 12:54pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ah that's ok then.

Halve away. ^^

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's only loads because their folks are paying the mortgage and for food etc. That was fine during the good times, but less people can afford to keep their 23 year old kids for free now.
It's not fair on their families.

True, but I mean, fcuk it. I live at home. (Student)

Were I on the dole, I could live on a 100 quid a week easily. (Not luxuriously, but easily.)

Were I not living at home it'd certainly be tougher though.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 12:54pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah all those stupid solicitors,engineers,architects,quantity surveyors,stockbrokers and all the other white collar professionals that have been hit should have seen the biggest economic meltdown since the great depression coming.

they will all regain jobs once the economy picks up

if they rented they could have easily moved/emigrated and got jobs elsewhere

its called mobility

getting a mortgage is a huge commitment, people need to understand that

expecting to be bailed out by the welfare system is just wrong

jonsnow · 23-10-2009 1:12pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if you think you are gonna be unemployed for a number of years or job is risky dont get a mortgage

Thats my point many people whos jobs would have been seen as pretty risk adverse such as accountants or solicitors have been caught in an unprecedented white collar recession.I,m sure they didn,t plan on being unemployed when they took out their mortgage.Most people don,t.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

most people on the continent have no issues renting their whole lives, its just here we have this crazy must own home mentality which lead us into this bust

Heh I agree with you here to a certain extent.But people can only operate within the logic of the system or society they live in.We do not have the legal or societal framework that the continental countries do to realistically give the security and rights to people who want to rent for their entire lives.Until we do it is not reasonable to expect people to live their entire lives and raise families in rented accomodation.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 1:18pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Thats my point many people whos jobs would have been seen as pretty risk adverse such as accountants or solicitors have been caught in an unprecedented white collar recession.I,m sure they didn,t plan on being unemployed when they took out their mortgage.Most people don,t.

.

it happens people need to learn to save for a bad day

savings rate was almost inexistent while people piled on debt in last few years

germany and china have a population who save alot and now both countries are out of recessions and getting on with more growth

btw our neigbours who also got themselves into alot of debt are in for more bad news today > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8321970.stm

theres a lesson for people in all of this "be careful with credit, and save for a bad day",

if its not learned will be back to square #1 soon again

jonsnow wrote: »

Heh I agree with you here to a certain extent.But people can only operate within the logic of the system or society they live in.We do not have the legal or societal framework that the continental countries do to realistically give the security and rights to people who want to rent for their entire lives.Until we do it is not reasonable to expect people to live their entire lives and raise families in rented accomodation.

why dont we have the legal framework in place? someone in Dail not doing their job? or vested interests preventing such legislation

/

jonsnow · 23-10-2009 1:21pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they will all regain jobs once the economy picks up

Yeah in about 7 years.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if they rented they could have easily moved/emigrated and got jobs elsewhere

its called mobility

A huge chunk of Irish people are married to/partnered with people working in the Public sector.They,re not going anywhere.That is a reality of Irish society.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

getting a mortgage is a huge commitment, people need to understand that

To be fair most people do.But you expect people to have seen into the crystal ball a little bit too much.

ei.sdraob · 23-10-2009 1:25pm

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah in about 7 years.

other countries are doing ok even on the continent, theres a freedom of movement of people in EU, no need to be trapped here

jonsnow wrote: »

A huge chunk of Irish people are married to/partnered with people working in the Public sector.They,re not going anywhere.That is a reality of Irish society.
.

good for them, then they are guaranteed a job and shouldnt have a problem paying off a mortgage, when was last time someone got fired from PS?

whats average monthly wage for PS? keep in mind average mortgage payment of 1300 / month ....

jonsnow wrote: »

To be fair most people do.But you expect people to have seen into the crystal ball a little bit too much.

if most people did they wouldnt be in this situation now, and as for crystal ball the writing was on the wall in huge letters "warning do not buy this house!"

anyways were talking about under 24s

how many u24s would honestly and realistically would buy a house a that age?

dvpower · 23-10-2009 1:29pm

amacachi wrote: »

Disgraceful if they do it. Surely a bloody 5% cut across the board would save more (and I think 5% is on the low side too)? I know plenty of people in their early 20s who've done more honest work than 40 and 50 year olds already but because of their age they're being penalised? It's a total bull****. Just another "**** you" to the young in this country who haven't been perfect up til now.

Absolutely nothing wrong with this proposal. They only take a cut if they don't take up a training place.

Mary Hanafin wrote:

It has actually been very successful. Not that we’re trying to just give less money to younger people but it has encouraged them into education and training – and remember if they take up an education or training opportunity they get the full rate. So its a good incentive for them to do it. And its something I would seriously look at.

jonsnow · 23-10-2009 1:33pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it happens people need to learn to save for a bad day

savings rate was almost inexistent while people piled on debt in last few years

germany and china have a population who save alot and now both countries are out of recessions and getting on with more growth

btw our neigbours who also got themselves into alot of debt are in for more bad news today > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8321970.stm

theres a lesson for people in all of this "be careful with credit, and save for a bad day",

if its not learned will be back to square #1 soon again

Look I agree with a lot of what you,re saying.The Irish debt levels were crazy and I,m not defending them.People were buying houses just to flip them and buying houses way beyond their means.Most thinking people realised a crash was inevitable at the end of the celtic tiger boom.But its the depth and severity of the crash which was unforeseen.

I know prudent reasonable couples in their early thirties who didn,t buy crazy houses at crazy prices and they,ve worked in professional jobs and have both been let go.Up until two years ago their career paths would have been firmly on track.Even in an earlier recession like the 80,s they,d have been ok.But instead they,re screwed.Mortages,kids and back to square one in their early thirties.I don,t think they were stupid I just think they were unlucky.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why dont we have the legal framework in place? someone in Dail not doing their job? or vested interests preventing such legislation

/

Yes and also historical legacies.Every society is formed in a different way.This homeowning mentality and system has been formed over hundreds of years.You can,t just overturn it overnight.Its ingrained in the Irish psyche.

thebman · 23-10-2009 1:33pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

how many u24s would honestly and realistically would buy a house a that age?

Many just out of college or not even out of college. The rest are tradesmen or working unskilled jobs.

brian076 · 23-10-2009 1:36pm

Fol20 wrote: »

This comment is complete discrimination..im irish but hate people who discriminate against eastern eu people who come here to work..they did the jobs that irish people didnt want to do a few years ago and thats the thanks they get..Sure the irish did the exact same thing 20 years ago when the immigrated to usa

Surely cutting the dole for under-24s is "complete discrimination" too.

jonsnow · 23-10-2009 1:42pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

other countries are doing ok even on the continent, theres a freedom of movement of people in EU, no need to be trapped here

They,re doing better than us-they,re not exactly booming and some of those labour markets are notoriously hard to break into.On top of which how many Irish people are fluent german,dutch,french speakers.

People aren,t just economic entities.They have ties to Irish society.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyways were talking about under 24s

how many u24s would honestly and realistically would buy a house a that age?

Fair enough.I,ve definetly gone a bit off topic .But then as we all know that tends to happen on boards:D

thebman · 23-10-2009 1:48pm

brian076 wrote: »

Surely cutting the dole for under-24s is "complete discrimination" too.

Not really, the majority are young, single with few financial obligations and require less money.

Its like saying insurance being higher for under 25's is discrimination when insurance companies have the facts to back up that they crash more.

Its not discrimination if you can show your not doing it because of the thing you are accused of discriminating against.

They aren't cutting it because your under 25 but because you have less financial obligations.

Klingon Hamlet · 23-10-2009 1:57pm

This is yet another step in the wrong direction for our misguided state.

We want to save money so we pick on those of our society we deem to be less worthy of protection and support.

First the older generation with the medical card cutback--- a move that was part-reversed only when the entire state was furious about it.

Then education and health get disembowelled slowly with each budget. (Ah sure, it's only our kids' minds and bodies at risk. Sure that'll have no effect on our state's future! Wait...)

Now: under-24s. F8ck you Hanafin. I work fulltime. I work hard. I see dole queues. I see many lazy sh!ts on those queues. I see many more who deserveour state's support. I know for a fact that just as many unworthies are well over the 24 age limit as under. I know amany under-24s whose family deserted them or are monsters and these under-24s are ekeing out an existence with whatever welfare they get...and now, they're truly screwed.

The overriding myth that under-24s are living in family homes and can survive on their parents' spare income is ridiculous. Many who do live at home have parents who got wage cuts or lost jobs. So look at us: cutting repeatedly at the blue-collars, the victims of our selfish, desperate mission to save as many pennies as possible.

And for what/ Where does the money we save go? Into the Money Pit. Unvouched expenses are the luxury of the Upper Crust monsters that are dragging us to hell, the very same beasts who are blatantly victimising every facet of the very society they falsely claim to be trying to p[rotect and save.

People, don't let this happen. There are many fruadsters living off our welfare. target them. STOP USING CLERKS TO FIND THESE THIEVES. Stop wasting money on chancers.

Immigrants making claims on non-existant children. Natives getting cash in hand and getting the dole. Mums getting child support but accidentally forgetting to mention this on their welfare claims. Unwed couples pretending to live apart to get the One Parent Family Payment. Countless others!

Leave the ageism aside. Stop targetting easy sections of society. Take repsonsibility for your position Hanafin. Get real. Ger grounded. Roam the post offices. Check the bank statements. SEE THE FRAUIDS. leave the under-24s be---many have enough troubles as it is. Get the money back from all who stole from this country.

And take a look in the mirror, Hanafin, you and your cronies steal from this state and claim it's all perk of the job. Unvouched expenses, overpriced hotels and luxury limos. Helicopters to f7cking football matches. Come on!

Halve Dole for Under 24s

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