Halve Dole for Under 24s

introspective85

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so if they paid prsi for years and worked at ****ty jobs

they dont deserve social insurance



so its ok to pay welfare to an irish person who hasnt worked, living with mammy and daddy but not ok to someone from EU who did work and most likely at ****ty jobs the Irish wont take? this thread is really descending into a joke now

tho i suppose racists like you dont get jobs in other countries and dont expect to get welfare if they ever endup loosing a job in another EU country, go crawl back under a rock you



you managed to use the words "NWO" and "sheeple" in same xenophobic post, conspiracy forum is this way >>>

First and foremost, i stated my belief that non-nationals should be targetted first in any cuts, i would have no problem with them recieving time limited prsi related social insurance.
If i lost a job, while working abroad, i'd return home like most non-bottom feeders.

I also said that i believe in social welfare reform, i'd actually favour its replacement with workfare programs in the long term, but not while we have an EU puppet administration in power.

"you managed to use the words "NWO" and "sheeple" in same xenophobic post, conspiracy forum is this way"
so you revert to strawman tactics, what more can i expect from an intellectual lightweight such as yourself.:D

major bill

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so if they paid prsi for years and worked at ****ty jobs

they dont deserve social insurance



so its ok to pay welfare to an irish person who hasnt worked, living with mammy and daddy but not ok to someone from EU who did work and most likely at ****ty jobs the Irish wont take? this thread is really descending into a joke now

tho i suppose racists like you dont get jobs in other countries and dont expect to get welfare if they ever endup loosing a job in another EU country, go crawl back under a rock you



you managed to use the words "NWO" and "sheeple" in same xenophobic post, conspiracy forum is this way >>>

how is he a racist?:rolleyes: im not getting into a race debate but if there's 40,000 non nationals on the dole then this means the government are paying out 424,320,000 a year to a group of people of which half dont plan on staying in ireland.thats a fairly big sum to be paying out.

introspective85

jodaw wrote: »

Does anyone remember the "Game Of Life". I think there would be a good market out there for a newer version called "The Real Game Of Life". To educate in the real way that our financial system in set up ...

The deck is stacked against the ordinary person throughout their lives with ultimate goal to keep them essentially enslaved to their wages and unable to progress. The skyrocketing house prices have killed the dreams of mutiple generations of young Irish people and made the older generations "paper rich" ...

Fractional Reserve banking has caused the whole world to be in the position it is in at this moment. It is one of the biggest crimes ever to be imposed on humanity. What makes me laugh is how this crime is somehow magically shielded from people. The Secret ??? bahhhhh ... the real secret is benifitting from this crime. Sadly only a priviledged few benefit from eroding the wealth of many ...

Really saddens me

Boom, Bust, Bailout to infinity ... all the time the screw being tightened on the average person

Right on the money!!!!
My advice, Take what you can from this illegal statelet.

bonkey

A bit more calm and respect for fellow posters wouldn't go astray on this thread...

dvpower

Under 24s who want to avoid the proposed cut can simply take up a place in education or training. No big deal.

major bill wrote: »

is a big deal if your already qualified and have already been there done that!!!

If your under 24 and qualified but can't find any job in the economy, then you really need to look at your qualifications and consider augmenting them.

introspective85

dvpower wrote: »

If your under 24 and qualified but can't find any job in the economy, then you really need to look at your qualifications and consider augmenting them.

I agree in theory with that statement, but we need to ask ourselves why do we have these bust and boom cycles that create over saturation of particular skill sets and labour shortages in other areas???

once again Fractional reserve banking is the root of the problem. If we had an honest banking system that didnt inflate our economy with artificial debt money, and was restricted to its deposits, our economy would be far more sustainable with alot less of the extremes of oversupply and shortages.

My point is dont scapegoat the unemployed who through no fault of their own(in most cases) have ended up on the dole. We have bigger fish to fry!!!!!:mad:

dvpower

introspective85 wrote: »

I agree in theory with that statement, but we need to ask ourselves why do we have these bust and boom cycles that create over saturation of particular skill sets and labour shortages in other areas???

once again Fractional reserve banking is the root of the problem. If we had an honest banking system that didnt inflate our economy with artificial debt money, and was restricted to its deposits, our economy would be far more sustainable with alot less of the extremes of oversupply and shortages.

My point is dont scapegoat the unemployed who through no fault of their own(in most cases) have ended up on the dole. We have bigger fish to fry!!!!!:mad:

And it seems that the preferred solution to the crisis is to pump even more money into the system. Anyhoo, the young unemployed can mull over these questions at their leisure (or do a free training course and retain their full benefits).

introspective85

dvpower wrote: »

And it seems that the preferred solution to the crisis is to pump even more money into the system. Anyhoo, the young unemployed can mull over these questions at their leisure (or do a free training course and retain their full benefits).

While of course those of us lucky enough to keep our jobs direct our anger at this group while the bankers walk away scot free!!!!!
Its classic divide and conquer. The eurocrats love this as it makes us even more indebted to the ECB, With most Taxes going towards the repayments of the interest on these loans!!!!!!
All the while us little people are at each others throats, oblivious to the fact that we are losing our freedom by stealth, and becoming debt slaves to international finance.:mad:

HollyB

If the government wants to introduce two different tiers of payments for the dole, they should base it on years paying PRSI, not on age. Somebody under 24 might have been working and paying PRSI since they were 16, and somebody aged 24 or over might have been working and paying PRSI for two years before claiming, or not working at all if they're claiming Jobseeker's Allowance.

Not everybody is going to have the option of returning to live with their parents. In some cases, the parents may have downsized once their children were old enough to move out and be unable to have their adult child living with them, or there may be difficulties within the family that mean that parents are unwilling to have their adult children living at home again. If exceptions are made, what's to stop people fraudulently claiming that they can't move back home so that they can get full dole and rent allowance? The alternative would be to legally oblige parents to house their under 24 year old offspring if said offspring is claiming the dole.

What about assessing payments based on PRSI payments over the five years prior to the claim; if the claimant was paying PRSI for four or five out of five years, they're paid at full rate, three out of five years and they're paid 80% of the full rate and if they paid for two years in the past five, they get 60% of the full rate? At the end of the first year, if the person is still unemployed, next year's entitlement will count back five years so they'll move down the scale as they go. Somebody who worked and paid PRSI from 2005-2009 would be entitled to full payment in 2010 and 2011, 80% in 2012 and 60% in 2013.

Considering the present economic climate, however, I think that there should be some leeway to stop people being bumped down from the 100% and 80% payment rates if it can be certified that they made every effort to secure a job but that they couldn't get any employment. This certification shouldn't just be a rubber stamp thing, given for the asking, the requirements would have to be stringent enough to ensure that only those who were applying for all or almost all jobs they were qualified for so turning your nose up at a job at McDonalds or Tesco isn't an option.

dvpower

Didn't we used to have a Pay Related Benefit at some point in the past, so for a short period you got a percentage of what you were earning before dropping down to the standard rate? Anyone?

SLUSK

Nodin wrote: »

So your implication is that because he lost his job, he should become homeless?

Are you telling me now it is the job of the taxpayer to pay a man's mortgage while he is unemployed? Why not give a house to everyone for free while your at it?

introspective85

SLUSK wrote: »

Are you telling me now it is the job of the taxpayer to pay a man's mortgage while he is unemployed? Why not give a house to everyone for free while your at it?

so is it the job of the tax payer to bail out criminal bankers and property developers who got us into this mess in the first place?

I'd agree with you, but i'd hope you're consistant and object to NAMA also, otherwise you're just scapegoating your fellow citizens who are the victims of this scam!!!!!

introspective85

Nodin wrote: »

So your implication is that because he lost his job, he should become homeless?

I'd have a better idea than mortgage relief. The state could refuse to enforce the eviction orders, so that people could become mortgage squatters, still living in their houses without fear of becoming homeless And could then continue with the repayments when they find employment, without fear of penalties.

Of course This would only apply to people with families, and under no circumstances to Parasitic property spectulators and landlords, who contributed to the property bubble.

bangersandmash

introspective85 wrote: »

I'd have a better idea than mortgage relief. The state could refuse to enforce the eviction orders, so that people could become mortgage squatters, still living in their houses without fear of becoming homeless And could then continue with the repayments when they find employment, without fear of penalties.

Of course This would only apply to people with families, and under no circumstances to Parasitic property spectulators and landlords, who contributed to the property bubble.

All of the people you mentioned above contributed to the bubble in their own way, both those who were willing to pay an over-inflated price for a family home and the spectulators (sic).

ei.sdraob

major bill wrote: »

how is he a racist?.

go look up a definition sir

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or get preferential treatment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

The Muppet

It has been said a couple of times in this and other threads that €204 euro is good pocket money for people still living at home.

I have a problem with this as it infers that it is the parents responsibility to keep them. At the age of 24 I had been keeping myself for 6 years, I would never have contemplated sponging off my parents.

I feel it's grossly unfair on both the dole recepient and their parents to put them in this position.

dearg lady

The Muppet wrote: »

It has been said a couple of times in this and other threads that €204 euro is good pocket money for people still living at home.

I have a problem with this as it infers that it is the parents responsibility to keep them. At the age of 24 I had been keeping myself for 6 years, I would never have contemplated sponging off my parents.

I feel it's grossly unfair on both the dole recepient and their parents to put them in this position.

See there's always gonna be people who take the p*ss, that's the problem, I know when I was 24 most of my friends were living a home, handing up a token amount to parents and therefore pretty much living rent free, never mind the cost of food and all that. Very few people living at home would pay out to their parents something equivalent to market rent. When I lived at home I was paying all my own expenses in terms of food, clothes etc, but what I was giving my parents towards keep was paltry compared to cost of rent, electricity, waste charges etc etc

Unfortunately decisions are based on the majority and not on the minority, though I agree halving it seems harsh.

Dev 17

hobochris wrote: »

This statement IMO is a cop out.

FYI I am referring to computer sci which is one of the sci area's with the lack of course interest.

I know so many young people who pursued these courses only to qualify go out into the job market recently And find no work for them. The reason being is that many companies either have hire freezes on or do not want grads, they want experienced people, which there is a lack of.

These companies then go complain to government bodies about the lack of IT people while the qualified grads end up signing on.

The government should be encouraging these companies to take on grads and give them the experience that that these companies are looking for.


Fair enough if that's what he chooses to spend his allowance on, BUT he should not receive any extra benefits over someone who chose not to purchase.

The problem with computer science grads is many are mediocre and simply drag their asses through university achieving grades barely above the pass mark. Many learn a smattering of Java and C and expect red carpet treatment when they leave.

Employers have no need for the hum drum they don't necessarily want experienced workers just workers who are good and have a capacity and willingness to learn.

My old class graduated this year from TCD with 13/20 achieving a first. Some stayed on for MSc and pHDs those who went into the workforce had little problem finding work despite the recession.

Also there is the put up and shut up attitude that is needed that many don't seem to have. Computer science is one of the few fields you can become self employed quite easily. Write a worthwhile program that is needed and sell it.

It is at this point many realize they don't have the skills to do this. Hence why employers don't want them.

All this talk of the gov needs to do this, employers need to do that mostly is nonsense because it puts the burden where it shouldn't be.

The Muppet

dearg lady wrote: »

Unfortunately decisions are based on the majority and not on the minority, though I agree halving it seems harsh.

Not in a caring civilised society they're not.

Let#s be honest if paying market price rent, heating, light, food and clothing yourself you're not going to be living the high life on whats left out of €204 at the end of the week.

ntlbell

The Muppet wrote: »

Not in a caring civilised society they're not.

Let#s be honest if paying market price rent, heating, light, food and clothing yourself you're not going to be living the high life on whats left out of €204 at the end of the week.

but most people on the social are not paying market price for rent they pay a relatively small amount and in some cases none at all.

i think now it's been reduced they might have to top it up a bit depending on where they live but as the rental market falls this should adjust itself.

so if you're a single person who doesn't drink and smoke after bills you are left with a fairly large amount of disposable income in the majority of cases more than a lot of people on minuum to avg ind wage circa 35k depending on their outgoings

i think people forget what the money is for, it's so you can _survive_ while waiting on work in the case of jobseekers

this means any sort of roof and 3 square meals a day (or at least should)

do the math yourself on a tight budget and you will be suprised how much disposable income a month one could be left with

thebman

Yeah my rent is 800 a month for the house I'm in, 3 people in the house so 800/3 (although single room person pays less, other two rooms are double rooms) and you end up with feck all rent being paid.

If someone was living here on the dole, they'd have a stupid amount of money after bills TBH. Easily enough to live on. I worked it out and if I was on the dole, I'd probably have a few hundred euro to mess around with.

Now in some cases people are in different situations so should be able to get the additional rent allowance if they need it IMO but some people don't need this much cash and if people can be assessed for what they need sound.

I do think the government should be aware of the situation that people may end up in which is that they need extra cash after rules come in but social welfare are too busy to be able to deal with their case.

Anyway people should consider moving to places with lower rent if they can't afford their current accommodation or negotiating with landlords.

introspective85

ei.sdraob wrote: »

go look up a definition sir




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

I dont want to go off ona tangent, but the term "racism" didnt even exist until 1917. It was first coined and defined by leon bronstein(trotsky), In order to demonise the opposition and destroy any sense of ethnic or cultural identity and to make way for cultural marxism. Basically its an abstract term with no real meaning other than a smear word used against nationalists and racially aware people.

These days the liberals and internationalists who have adopted many of the cultural and social aspects of marxism in combination with capitalist economics, throw the word around like confetti, completely ignorant of its origins and abstract meaninglessness.

sceptre

introspective85 wrote: »

I dont want to go off ona tangent

Not that you're the first in this thread. But let's not go off on a tangent so. The thread is about the notion of halving the dole for those under 24.

introspective85

sceptre wrote: »

Not that you're the first in this thread. But let's not go off on a tangent so. The thread is about the notion of halving the dole for those under 24.

Sorry, I was adressing a poster who labelled me a racist for suggesting that the dole cuts should focus on non-nationals first, and to prioritise the needs of irish people.

I might start a seperate thread tommorow, non-inflammatory of course relating specifically to non-nationals on the dole and whether they should first be the target of dole cuts.

Hopefully it wont be removed.

wolfpawnat

ntlbell wrote: »

but most people on the social are not paying market price for rent they pay a relatively small amount and in some cases none at all.

i think now it's been reduced they might have to top it up a bit depending on where they live but as the rental market falls this should adjust itself.

so if you're a single person who doesn't drink and smoke after bills you are left with a fairly large amount of disposable income in the majority of cases more than a lot of people on minuum to avg ind wage circa 35k depending on their outgoings

i think people forget what the money is for, it's so you can _survive_ while waiting on work in the case of jobseekers

this means any sort of roof and 3 square meals a day (or at least should)

do the math yourself on a tight budget and you will be suprised how much disposable income a month one could be left with

I am a non-smoker and I rarely if ever even go to a pub, and even more seldomly drink! But having a child really drains on the dole. Also I do get rent allowance I will admit it, and I still pay €50 of my dole towards my rent each week, (thankfully not too bad), but I also have loans to pay off and bills to pay.

I am trying to find work, and I would take almost anything that came my way at this time (the only jobs I wouldnt take are things like a late night bar jobs, as the creches are not open at the times I would need them).

If you were as tight as a ducks arse, you could be wealthy, but as much as I try to be tight, I can't save more than a tenner a week into mine and my sons credit union accounts.

skearon

PaulieD wrote: »

So what? A 23 year old Irish citizen who has worked since they were 17 will receive half the payment that a 24 year old foreigner, who is here for two years would.

Disgraceful.

I agree, your racist comments are indeed disgraceful.

The proposed measure applies equally to ALL EU citizens, so a 24 year old EU citizen would get half the amount a 25 year old EU citizen would.

Plus I believe it is proposed to cut job seekers allowance, not job seekers benefit, so someone under 25 who has worked and paid PRSI would get the full rate of JB.

introspective85

skearon wrote: »

I agree, your racist comments are indeed disgraceful.

The proposed measure applies equally to ALL EU citizens, so a 24 year old EU citizen would get half the amount a 25 year old EU citizen would.

Plus I believe it is proposed to cut job seekers allowance, not job seekers benefit, so someone under 25 who has worked and paid PRSI would get the full rate of JB.

Racist???? Anyone who uses that term has already lost the debate, how is this person racist by suggesting that non-citizens with no ties to this country should be targeted first in any cuts before irish youth?

Whats wrong with putting our own people first? Im sick and tired of the politically correct thought police smearing people with that meaningless word, "racist". I suppose you're another one of the Yes to lisbon heads,who sold out this nations sovereignty.Traitors dont deserve respect for their opinion!!!!!! :mad:

Also i would like to refer you to my post about 'racism' a few comments up, were i expose the abstractness and meaningless of that term.

skearon

murphaph wrote: »

This is approaching the German system-70% of previous salary for one year then it gets reduced further in year 2. In year three you fall down to ArbeitslosengeldII (HartzIV) and that's a flat €351 per month plus rent paid in a small apartment (no more than 45 square metres for a single person) and health insurance paid by the state.

I would strongly advocate this system for Ireland too. Welfare needs to be seen as a very bad option which just about pays for the essentials. It should REALLY encourage you to look for a job, any job.

I totally agree, we need to reform welfare, with one based on the Hartz system. It protects people who have lost their jobs, whilst at the same discourages those who want to live on welfare for life.

skearon

introspective85 wrote: »

In other words come december the people on this thread supporting the cut may well be eating their words, when they see riots that make the o'connell street riot in feb 06, seem insignificant in comparison!!!!!!

I'll be taking to the streets to protest, although i dont endorse violence in any way.

You might as join the march organised by the economic illiterates leading the public service unions.

This country simply cannot continue to borrow €500m a week, we either implement cuts ourselves, or become insolvent and have the IMF do it for us.

Civic spirit and a willingness to take short term cuts for long term is gain is what is needed, not marchs for bankruptcy.

skearon

major bill wrote: »

how is he a racist?:rolleyes: im not getting into a race debate but if there's 40,000 non nationals on the dole then this means the government are paying out 424,320,000 a year to a group of people of which half dont plan on staying in ireland.thats a fairly big sum to be paying out.

Sure lets throw out all the foreigners, shall we start with Intel and the other foreign companies who provide 150+K well paid jobs?

Grow up, or go to the UK and join the BNP ffs