Average sick in the Irish Civil Service is comparable to other countries

ParkRunner

In anticipation of a further civil service bashing thread:

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1184&CatID=17&StartDate=1+January+2009

Main Findings
The examination found that almost 5% of available working time was lost as a result of sickness absence in 2007, the latest year for which comprehensive data was available. On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days. There was a considerable variation in sick days taken when the pattern of absence by grade, age, gender and work sharing arrangements was analysed. Between departments absence levels varied from 2.4% to 7%.

The examination estimated that the total remuneration cost of Civil Service staff during periods of sickness absence was of the order of €64 million. However, the full cost of sickness absence is likely to be considerably higher when indirect costs are factored in. For instance, it has been estimated in the UK that the true cost of absence is likely to be closer to twice the level of salary costs.

While caution is necessary in making comparisons between jurisdictions the examination found that the average number of days lost in the Irish Civil Service is comparable to that found in similar employments in other countries. For example, in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, the average number of days lost was found to be 12.9 in 2007/08, while in the UK Civil Service it was 9.3 in 2006/07.

The report outlines a set of good practice opportunities which Civil Service departments could deploy to improve their management of sickness absence and promote attendance.

Note, thread title needs slight editing

Diarmuid

EF wrote: »

In anticipation of a further civil service bashing thread:

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1184&CatID=17&StartDate=1+January+2009



Note, thread title needs slight editing

Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?

EDIT: From here

Almost 70% of all sick days were taken by women and the average female worker took almost 14 days sick leave, compared to 8 for the average male employee.

Still no average figure.

The Saint

The Comptroller and Auditor General found that 59% of those employed in the Civil Service in 2007 availed of sick leave and the average total absence was just over 11 days.

From Here

bridgitt

Diarmuid wrote: »

Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?
.

In Rep. of Ireland, " the average number of days taken by Clerical Officers across departments was 16 days. " From Here

spank_inferno

Whether it compares well to other public services its still pretty goddam high!

I've missed 3 days in the last 15 months due to something that had me in hospital.

Does the report clarify how many of those average 11 days were sick days.
vs how many were "hangover" days or "couldnt be bothered" days.

still of course you should get sick days,
But I think a cap of 4 for uncertified absence and mabey 8 for cetrified would be reasonable.

jon1981

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

The Saint

Just for comparison with the private sector:

- Small firms average absenteeism – 6 days.
- Absenteeism from work costs small business €793 million per annum.
- National average is 8 days.
- Small firm average is 6 days.
- Medium firm average is 8 days.
- Large firm average is 10 days.

The national average for absenteeism is 3.5% or 8 working days. For large firms this rises to 4.6% or 10 working days. For small firms the average falls to 2.8% or 6 working days.

Info from the Small Firms Association (2008 est.)

From the Independent 2008 so not sure if people will put much faith in its content:

ALMOST all major public sector employers have higher absenteeism rates than the private sector, an Irish Independent investigation has found.

Of 60 public sector bodies surveyed -- including ministerial departments, county and city councils, the HSE, Fas and RTE -- 47 have higher absenteeism rates than the national average for the private sector.

The average private sector firm loses 3.5pc of its working year to certified and uncertified sick leave.

Linky

Eleven out of 13 Government departments exceed the average for the private sector. A few departments do not surrender to the mysterious ailments that seem to afflict others.

From Here

gazzer

jon1981 wrote: »

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

No it is not an unwritten rule. I have taken 3 sick days in the last 2 years.

cavedave

gazzer

No it is not an unwritten rule. I have taken 3 sick days in the last 2 years.

That is fairly high. Most people I have asked seem to take about about one day every two years.

Actually The Saint has some proper facts and figures so go with those ones.

NewDubliner

jon1981 wrote: »

isnt it an unwritten rule that ps and cs workers use their uncertified sick days as annual leave?

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

RCIRL

It wont be long until they want a big bubble supplied so they can surround themselves in complete "safety". These folks need to wake up, they have lost touch with reality, just like the Government. Benchmarking led them all to believe they are more special than they really are, your nothing special, just mere mortals like the rest of us.

The Government has realized their mistake and over 450,000 people have accepted it, its about time you accepted it too.

I know somebody in the PS and this person has had pay rise's for the most daft things you will ever hear of and frequently visits, the "time out" room after a heavy nights drinking. Hours are spent by many people in these rooms, sleeping on the job, getting paid to do nothing!

Cop on, take the hit like we all have. The more time you spend whinging, the more time its going to take to get over 450.000 of us back into work. If we dont get back into work soon, you wont even have a job!

Arathorn

Who cares if its comparable, just because other countries are ****e doesn't excuse us from it, especially now the country is broke

Anyone working in the private sector knows this is taking the piss

NewDubliner

Arathorn wrote: »

Who cares if its comparable, just because other countries are ****e doesn't excuse us from it, especially now the country is broke...Anyone working in the private sector knows this is taking the piss

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

We should really be asking why it is so unhealthy to work in the civil service?

imme

RCIRL wrote: »

Benchmarking led them all to believe they are more special than they really are, your nothing special, just mere mortals like the rest of us.

The Government has realized their mistake and over 450,000 people have accepted it, its about time you accepted it too.

I know somebody in the PS and this person has had pay rise's for the most daft things you will ever hear of and frequently visits, the "time out" room after a heavy nights drinking. Hours are spent by many people in these rooms, sleeping on the job, getting paid to do nothing!

Cop on, take the hit like we all have. The more time you spend whinging, the more time its going to take to get over 450.000 of us back into work. If we dont get back into work soon, you wont even have a job!

did you question benchmarking at the time it came about?

I don't think the government has realised their mistakes, they'll make more, that's what governments do.

What did they get pay rises for exactly?

"time-out room", what's this exactly?

ardmacha

A few departments do not surrender to the mysterious ailments that seem to afflict others.

This is the way forward. There is significant variation within PS in performance of all sorts . Identify the best office, the best school, the best local authority etc, find out what they do right there and put the person in charge there in charge of the whole State. Since the best example is already in the PS they have a good grasp of how to do things within the system.

sickpuppy

NewDubliner wrote: »

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

We should really be asking why it is so unhealthy to work in the civil service?

Must be the long hours and impossible targets that need reaching:rolleyes:
My house mate wanted 3 days off last year so he rang his mother to get a sick cert off his family doctor which was got for him.
This is of course wrong but happens none the less.

Klingon Hamlet

Absenteeism is a common ailment in most areas of employment. However most employers would eventually discipline and finally fire repeat offenders. Civil service rarely do if ever.

jon1981

NewDubliner wrote: »

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

so 90% of it was genuine certified sickness...thats interesting then

The Saint

NewDubliner wrote: »

Not according to the report - Less than 10% of the sick leave was uncertified. And, 40% of staff took no sick leave at all.

But that uncertified sick leave represented 42% of all instances of absence indicating short term leaves of absence as per below:

Although only 9% of days were taken as uncertified or unauthorised leave, these days accounted for over 40% of all instances of sickness absence as shown in Figure 3.4. The average length of each uncertified absence was 1.3 days

Also, over 30% of these uncertified sick days happened to fall on a monday. Not implying anything. Just saying.
Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.

NewDubliner wrote: »

90% of sick leave was certified by private sector doctors, so this means that there was a genuine illness that meant the staff member could not work or should not.

Where did you get the info that 90% of sick leave was certified by a private sector doctor? Couldn't find it in the report.

irish_bob

spank_inferno wrote: »

Whether it compares well to other public services its still pretty goddam high!

I've missed 3 days in the last 15 months due to something that had me in hospital.

Does the report clarify how many of those average 11 days were sick days.
vs how many were "hangover" days or "couldnt be bothered" days.

still of course you should get sick days,
But I think a cap of 4 for uncertified absence and mabey 8 for cetrified would be reasonable.

indeed , plenty of engaging in semantics in here to try and excuse the fact that many clerical officers take off a month ( 16 work days ) each year through ( SICKNESS)

it would explain why whenever my brother rings the local dept of agri office , brigid or mary are hardly ever in

imme

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

Absenteeism is a common ailment in most areas of employment. However most employers would eventually discipline and finally fire repeat offenders. Civil service rarely do if ever.

what do you mean, like people not turning up at all?

beggars_bush

did they break down the sick leave into certified sick leave, uncertified leave and personal days (baby being born, death in family)??

that might clarify how many days are being taken without an excuse

NewDubliner

The Saint wrote: »

Where did you get the info that 90% of sick leave was certified by a private sector doctor? Couldn't find it in the report.

Normally, you get a cert from your GP, these are normally self-employed.

Medically certified sick leave represents the 90% of sick days taken.

The Saint wrote:

But that uncertified sick leave represented 42% of all instances of absence indicating short term leaves of absence as per below...Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.

Instances, but not the number of days. Technically, the other leave is not 'uncertified', it's self-certified and a signed/written explanation must be given.

Lets get the numbers right? 90% of the sick leave is for genuine medical reasons.

I'd say one possible reason for the medically certified stat being higher than in the private sector would be the length of time it takes to dismiss someone who is too sick to work and has no prospect of returning.

senara

"On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days."

This implies an overall average of 6.49 days

RCIRL

imme wrote: »

did you question benchmarking at the time it came about?

I don't think the government has realised their mistakes, they'll make more, that's what governments do.

What did they get pay rises for exactly?

"time-out room", what's this exactly?

Yes I did question it, as I knew I would'nt work. It works on the simple principle of giving out money for nothing. We all know you can never get money for nothing and now we see the problems its created, its bloated the Governments spending in such a way that they cant cope with it, it has also massaged the PS workers ego, making them out to believe they are special just because of the time served instead of the actual work done/experienced gained.

Its not "they" its a person I know, this person received increases in pay and expenses with out promotion.

The "time out room" is a room you will find in many PS offices/buildings its a room with a bed where a PS employee can take time out from work to lie down should they experience a slight headache, upset stomach or feel in any way poorly while in work, some of these rooms have a doctor or nurse to attend to the poorly employees.

bridgitt

RCIRL wrote: »

The "time out room" is a room you will find in many PS offices/buildings its a room with a bed where a PS employee can take time out from work to lie down should they experience a slight headache, upset stomach or feel in any way poorly while in work, some of these rooms have a doctor or nurse to attend to the poorly employees.

The poor things. Why do they get sick so much? Despite less stress, more holidays and better pay ? 16 days for clerical workers, when clerical workers in the private sector take much less sick leave ? You could excuse the HSE staff for taking 20 days annually ( over a month ) ; well the poor creatures are exposed to more bugs and germs etc . The reason clerical officers in the public service take many more sick days is (a) because almost every doctor will feel they cannot refuse to give one of their customers who requests it a sick cert for a back achc or a bad cold for a few days and (b) its like FAS spending the money - they spent it because it was there to be spent and if they did not use their entitlement one year they may not get it the next. The recent revelations are no suprise to anyone who knows anything about the public sector. We all have siblings, cousins, relations, or friends who work in some part of the public service. Ask any farmer or self-employed person how many sick days they take, or can afford to take, off each year on average;)

dvpower

So its not work related stress thats causing it.

BroomBurner

sickpuppy wrote: »

Must be the long hours and impossible targets that need reaching:rolleyes:
My house mate wanted 3 days off last year so he rang his mother to get a sick cert off his family doctor which was got for him.
This is of course wrong but happens none the less.

Sorry, I don't see the relevance in the emboldened part. That says more about your housemate than their employer. Do you expect every employer, including the PS, to not accept a doctor's cert?

cyclopath2001

dvpower wrote: »

So its not work related stress thats causing it.

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

Staying out of work when ill is a matter of health and safety for the worker and the people he/she works with.

dvpower

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

That's a generous analysis :rolleyes:

mikemac

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's likely that as the weekend approaches, a worker decides to 'soldier on' in the hope of recovering from, say a heavy cold or 'man flu' over the weekend. Then, discovering they're still not fit, get a cert on the Monday.

Staying out of work when ill is a matter of health and safety for the worker and the people he/she works with.

If ever there was thread begging for a :rolleyes:

I'd agree staying out of work when sick is a matter for health & safety.
But Monday being the prime day has probably more to do with Sunday being a weekend night out

I don't blame the workers, they'll push to what they get away with. What are the well paid managers doing to allow such high levels of absenteeism?
Or maybe it's low morale or stress. If I was a social welfare office or prison officer taking abuse from "undesirables" every day, I'd be calling in sick now and again too