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Average sick in the Irish Civil Service is comparable to other countries

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    #32
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    dvpower wrote: »
    That's a generous analysis :rolleyes:
    One of our more attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our generousity and goodwill towards others. The quality of life that this kind of attitude brings has attracted foreign companies to set up business here.


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    #33
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    One of our more attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our generousity and goodwill towards others. The quality of life that this kind of attitude brings has attracted foreign companies to set up business here.

    I could be generous but I'm too sceptical


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    #34
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    One of our less attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our tollerance of chancers and freeloaders .

    fixed that for ya


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    #35
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    irish_bob wrote: »
    fixed that for ya
    You mean 'cute hoors'?


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    #36
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    Diarmuid wrote: »
    Interesting how they gave the average sick days for UK and Northern Ireland (9.3 and 12.9) but I didn't see it for Republic. How can we compare if they don't quote the figure?

    EDIT: From here

    Still no average figure.
    See, the problem isn't the public sector. It's WIMMIN! :mad:


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    #37
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,040 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    dvpower wrote: »
    Irish_civil-service-sick-leave_oct232009.jpg

    So its not work related stress thats causing it.

    There are 7 days in a week. If you fall sick on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday morning, your sick absence will start on... Monday. So 3/7ths of sick absences can be expected to start on a Monday.


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    #38
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    The Saint wrote: »
    But ...Also, over 30% of these uncertified sick days happened to fall on a monday. Not implying anything. Just saying.
    Public servants are also entitled to around seven days paid uncertified sick leave.....

    Thats strange anywhere I've worked private or public mondays or fridays can't be taken as uncertified. Has to be a certified day. I'd have assumed everywhere else is the same.


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    #39
    johnathan woss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭johnathan woss


    irish_bob wrote: »
    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    One of our less attractive traits as people, in Ireland, is our tollerance of chancers and freeloaders .

    fixed that for ya

    bob what's your job, as a matter of interest ?

    Do you work ?


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    #40
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    BostonB wrote: »
    Thats strange anywhere I've worked private or public mondays or fridays can't be taken as uncertified. Has to be a certified day. I'd have assumed everywhere else is the same.
    Most of the sick leave that is taken (90%) is certified sick leave.

    This means that a member of the private sector (a GP) has personally examined the public sector worker and signed a certificate that the person is unfit for work at that time.

    Perhaps they should be required to report to Independent Newspapers for a second examination?


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    #41
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    johnathan woss wrote: »
    bob what's your job, as a matter of interest ?

    Do you work ?

    i am not working fulltime at the moment , i had a bad accident two years ago , i suffer from chronic pain as a result ( on a lot of medication , have had proceedures to try and relieve pain ) but as i live in rural ireland , i do help out on my brothers farm in anyway i can , doing machinery work , work that doesnt require much physicality , he pays me a decent wage all things considered

    ps , i am not drawing disability


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    #42
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    ninja900 wrote: »
    There are 7 days in a week. If you fall sick on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday morning, your sick absence will start on... Monday. So 3/7ths of sick absences can be expected to start on a Monday.

    Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work. So there goes your excuse why so many Mondays get taken off.

    Ask how many farmers or self employed people if they get sick on a Saturday , will still be off work on a Monday.;) Some I know have not taken 3 days off in their life, they can not afford to.


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    #43
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work. So there goes your excuse why so many Mondays get taken off.

    I didn't get that either. The odds of being sick should be the same for any day. Fact less people should take sick on a monday, as its usually requires a cert, and the cost of a doctors visit, which would deter a lot of people.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Ask how many farmers or self employed people if they get sick on a Saturday , will still be off work on a Monday.;) Some I know have not taken 3 days off in their life, they can not afford to.

    Thats such a useless and meaningless comparision. Paid sick leave is a perk. Its not a legal entitlement. You don't get in low paid jobs, or doing a paper round, or working in many jobs.

    But if you are genuinely sick and unable to work, you are not going to be able to ignore it. Of course you can, and make yourself much sicker. I know someone who did that, got Pneumonia, got hospitalised, got MRSA then died. Other I know of had a hernia, when back working too early ripped all the stitches, ended back in hospital and took twice as long to get over it as it should. Also you might be able to work if you are isolated away from other people, or close to home. Like working on a farm. But it makes no sense to make half your office sick. Or your clients. or be geing sick on a train or bus to work. Whereas if you were working from home you might be able to manage. Thats not to say its not abused, just that it can be valid. Some industries have more sick people than others. If you are sitting on your butt all day instead of out wdoing physical labour, or if your industry has an older age profile, or more families with young kids, theres going to more people sick. Thats just life. However none of that is really the issue. Its just noise distracting from the really arguments. If its being abused then its not being managed properly. But even thats not the issue.

    If we can't afford it, then it has to go. But thats going to be a hard sell if you are giving people huge bonuses and golden handshakes.

    You either had to get the unions on board, or stand up to them. So far the Govt has not managed either.


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    #44
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Poor logic. Many sicknesses do not last 3 days. Many sicknesses occuring on a Saturday should not necessitate taking Monday off work.
    The workers have been medically examined by a doctor, what makes you think you know better? Are you a doctor jimmmy?


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    #45
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    senara wrote: »
    "On average, 59% of all staff employed in that year availed of sick leave and the average employee was absent for just over eleven days."

    This implies an overall average of 6.49 days

    The report implies otherwise.


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    #46
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Most of the sick leave that is taken (90%) is certified sick leave.

    This means that a member of the private sector (a GP) has personally examined the public sector worker and signed a certificate that the person is unfit for work at that time.

    Perhaps they should be required to report to Independent Newspapers for a second examination?

    Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.


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    #47
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.
    And that kind of sick leave, say for a heavy cold or minor food poisoning, constitutes less than 10% of all sick leave taken.


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    #48
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.
    Well given that the statistics say that the average civil servant takes about 11 days sick leave a year, and less than one in ten of those sick days are uncertified, that works out at civil servants taking an average of one uncertified sick day per year.


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    #49
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    It does'nt matter when almost no doctors will refuse a client a sick cert for a day or two if they go with a cold / backache or whatever.
    Why are over 30% of instances of sick leave on a Monday ?


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    #50
    evercloserunion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭evercloserunion


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It does'nt matter when almost no doctors will refuse a client a sick cert for a day or two if they go with a cold / backache or whatever.
    Why are over 30% of instances of sick leave on a Monday ?
    I imagine because a lot of illnessed which arise at the weekend spill over into Monday.

    (Or because the public sector eats babies, whichever one suits yourself)


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    #51
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    i hear now that sickdays in the HSE are measured in years :D

    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/euro11m-paid-to-hse-staff-on-longterm-sick-leave-1925608.html


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    #52
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Civil servants do not have to produce a cert for the first seven days per year, provided that any absence does not span more than two days in succesion.

    I'm surprised its doesn't exclude mon/fri as most do. Anyone I know in the Public sector has this. Is the CS different?


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    #53
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    I imagine because a lot of illnessed which arise at the weekend spill over into Monday.
    Even allowing for that its much higher on a Monday than it should be.


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    #54
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Even allowing for that its much higher on a Monday than it should be.

    How high should it be?


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    #55
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    It does'nt matter when almost no doctors will refuse a client a sick cert for a day or two if they go with a cold / backache or whatever.

    are you a GP now too jimmmy?

    just keep moving the goalposts...
    Why are over 30% of instances of sick leave on a Monday ?

    some public servants work shifts and weekends, many work Mon-Frid, many work part-time; is 30% for any particular day that outrageous


    in addition:

    if you work a Mon-Fri and are sick on both a Friday and the following Monday, it counts as 4 days sick even though you would not have been in
    work...there is obviously a certain amount of this contained in the figures

    the average may be 11 days but I know of some people put a long-time due to serious illness...this obviously skews the figures

    I have had one incident of sick-leave (4 days) in about the last 6 years or so that I can recall and I am sure there are many that have not taken any...i think I saw a figure of 59% of public servants taking some sort of sick leave in the year...this means 41% did not (based on 330,000) around 135,000 or over a third dont take any sick leave


    The problems:

    in some cases its a complete joke; there are some parts (very few) where sick leave is treated as annual leave and this is completely wrong and inexcusable

    people (see posts on this thread) treat it as if all this sick leave is for people not actually sick and simply taking days off.....people get sick, plain and simple..I am sure that some are taking it for other reasons......there is a system in place for people who take too much uncertified leave to be challenged and can result in not getting increment, going on official record etc

    ....the Public service also includes a high proportion of women (in part due to its family-friendly policies) and therefore, imo, would incur a higher level of pregnancy-related illness


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    #56
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Even allowing for that its much higher on a Monday than it should be.

    Theres a 'Gold standard' for illness now? Does this factor in risk of contraction, mental complaints, stress etc for each specific job? Please do enlighten us, Jimmy.


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    #57
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »

    some public servants work shifts and weekends, many work Mon-Frid, many work part-time; is 30% for any particular day that outrageous

    The graph just covered Monday - Friday, so presumably applied just to those who had Monday - Friday jobs ? 32% of the sick leave was taken on a Monday. Just over a third of that - about 11 or 12 % - was taken on a Friday. Why was Monday practically three times more likely to be taken as a " sickie " compared to a Friday ? Nothing strike you as unusual about that ?


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    #58
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    The graph just covered Monday - Friday, so presumably applied just to those who had Monday - Friday jobs ?

    well then it left out a lot of staff....how can it claim to be for the public service....is it only for a specific sector?

    32% of the sick leave was taken on a Monday. Just over a third of that - about 11 or 12 % - was taken on a Friday. Why was Monday practically three times more likely to be taken as a " sickie " compared to a Friday ? Nothing strike you as unusual about that ?

    I (and every one else I am sure) have no doubt as to why Monday is higher and I'd imagine Monday is also the day most used for Annual Leave and flexi-leave

    where there is any abuse of sick leave (for sore heads or whatever) its likely to be Monday


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    #59
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    I have realised that this info relates to the Civil Service only

    so we are only talking about 10% or so of the Public service

    of that 10%, 6% have taken some sick leave (i.e. from 1 day up)

    and 4% did not take any at all

    if this is the case does it not suggest that its not as bad as the averages portray?

    i.e. what % only took 1 or 2 days etc

    I think from those figurees the vast majority of the leave is likely to be taken by quite a small number


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    #60
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I (and every one else I am sure) have no doubt as to why Monday is higher and I'd imagine Monday is also the day most used for Annual Leave and flexi-leave

    where there is any abuse of sick leave (for sore heads or whatever) its likely to be Monday

    Fair enough, at least we can agree on something.


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    #61
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I have realised that this info relates to the Civil Service only

    so we are only talking about 10% or so of the Public service

    Lets talk about the broader public service so . In the words of another poster
    " The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee."
    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...r-1922474.html

    If absenteeism was the same in the public sector as in the private sector then surely the taxpayer would save millions, and waiting lists shorter etc


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