Archaic German vocab help

Amtmann

Hi, I've started translating a VERY old document from the region around Wuerzburg. I realise that many of the words that follow below are archaic, or maybe even extinct, but I'm hoping some native speaker will recognise at least a few. I've checked dictionaries and it's hard to find one that has words from the 1500s - so, who knows, maybe boards.ie is the right place to go!

stemptlich

entporhung

Zuerwucken

khuntlich

furgetrucktem

unablessig

beylegung (probably beilegung if spelt in the modern way)

"aufstehen zuhaben benohlen"

Spelling wasn't consistent in the period I'm looking at, so be aware that words might be spelt phonetically.

Thanks for reading...

Terodil

Furet wrote: »

Hi, I've started translating a VERY old document from the region around Wuerzburg. I realise that many of the words that follow below are archaic, or maybe even extinct, but I'm hoping some native speaker will recognise at least a few. I've checked dictionaries and it's hard to find one that has words from the 1500s - so, who knows, maybe boards.ie is the right place to go!

Uh... I'm a native speaker but by no means an expert in medieval German, which is vastly different from German today. I'll still take a stab at it but please take it with a grain of salt and check if it fits into the context (which would have been great to include tbh, makes it easier).

stemptlich
good start - no idea

entporhung
maybe today's 'Empörung' - outrage?

Zuerwucken
another blank

khuntlich
probably today's 'kundlich' - written, explicit, known

furgetrucktem
something to do with print? maybe 'Vorgedrucktem' -- what was said/printed previously?

unablessig
today's 'unablässig' - incessant(ly)

beylegung (probably beilegung if spelt in the modern way)
indeed - in the context of disputes, a settlement. Maybe also a variation to 'Beisetzung' = funeral? context?

"aufstehen zuhaben benohlen"
'benohlen' rings absolutely no bell. Maybe misprint of 'befohlen'?

Eirien

Hi Furet,

some context would be quite helpful, otherwise all we will be able to come up with is guesswork at best. It seems to me that the manuscript (?) was perhaps not quite easily readable - for example, is there a typo somewhere in

- stemptlich
?
which reminds me of semptlich, an old spelling for sämtlich (= all of them)

Amtmann

Thanks very much! The context is quite uncertain I'm afraid, and it's difficult to determine not least because of the lack of punctuation. But: It is a letter by the Prince-Bishop of Wuerzburg to the citizens of a nearby town, and it was written shortly after the Bauernkrieg. The letter is quite short and refers to the uprising. I have just shown the transcription to two native German speakers and they cannot understand it, though they do get an ocasional sense of it.

Some of it reads thus:

Wir Conrad von Gottes....entpieten allen und jeden unnsern unnd unnseres stiffts underthanen unnd verwanten unnsern grus Liebe getrewe, wie wol ir [Ihr] unns als wir euch vergange Jares nach Baurischen auffruhr widerumb zu gnaden, ungnaden, unnd newer erbhu(e)ldung angenome stemptlich unnd sonderlich gelobt und geschworn, auch des in ewren versigelten unns ubergebene briefen solcher brief ist wider gegebe und gehadt [?]...in dem gewalt.

So far, I have:

We Conrad of God, Gracious Bishop of Würzburg and Duke of Franconia, bid one and all in our Land, vassals and relatives, Our greetings and faithful[1] love, as you well know. When We to you in the past year after the peasant uprising, to grace, ungrace, and new tributes[2]accepted [stemptlich?] and especially praised and swore, also that in your seal hand over[3]to us letters which letter is again given and

[1] Getreu – faithful, exact, true

[2] Erbhuldigung, synonymous with ‘huldigung’.

[3] Hand over?

Now obviously it's a useless translation as it stands (I've yet to make it intelligible in English; so far I'm doing a literal translation). But I don't know whether to be happy or sad that native Germans find it hard! At the moment I'm thinking, "if they can't do it, then how the heck can I??" I think it's just a question of perseverence and hard graft...I only started a few hours ago after all.

Terodil

Well in fairness, we (native speakers) are only slightly ahead of you in that we know modern German and can draw on similarities. You would probably be better off asking a real Germanist.

Anyway, from what I read up there I'm not quite happy with your translation after the first sentence. I would come up with something like this:

Furet wrote: »

Wir Conrad von Gottes....entpieten allen und jeden unnsern unnd unnseres stiffts underthanen unnd verwanten unnsern grus Liebe getrewe,
wie wol ir [Ihr] unns
als wir euch vergange Jares nach Baurischen auffruhr widerumb zu gnaden, ungnaden, unnd newer erbhu(e)ldung angenome stemptlich unnd sonderlich gelobt und geschworn, auch des in ewren versigelten unns ubergebene briefen solcher brief ist wider gegebe und gehadt [?]...in dem gewalt.

We, Conrad, by God's grace Bishop of Würzburg and Duke of Franconia, bid one and all in our land, vassals and relatives, our greetings and faithful love, just like you did us, when we accepted you back after the peasant uprising of last year, whether in grace or not or for (Erbhueldung??? rebuilding grace?), as you specifically promised and vowed, also in your sealed letters handed over to us. Such a letter is reproduced and kept in our possession.

Amtmann

Terodil wrote: »

Anyway, from what I read up there I'm not quite happy with your translation after the first sentence. I would come up with something like this:
We, Conrad, by God's grace Bishop of Würzburg and Duke of Franconia, bid one and all in our land, vassals and relatives, our greetings and faithful love, just like you did us, when we accepted you back after the peasant uprising of last year, whether in grace or not or for (Erbhueldung??? rebuilding grace?), as you specifically promised and vowed, also in your sealed letters handed over to us and such a letter is reproduced and kept in our possession.

That sounds perfect, and it makes excellent sense given what I know about the town under investigation. It also helps me with the rest of the document...
All of the documents I have to work with are like this. By the end of the next three years I would hope to be something of a Germanist myself

Once again, thank you very much for your help and effort, Terodil.

palaver

You have to remember that in the old times everyone wrote just as they spoke and that mostly in the local dialect, in this case "fränkisch" obviously. Dictionaries were only invented centuries later. And spelling was miserable.
The best way to understand a little is to read the original text aloud so that you can get a feeling how it sounds and might mean. Don't stick to the actual spelling.
If you have a dictionary for Mittelhochdeutsch look at similar words which might fit the context.

Some ideas though:

stemptlich unnd sonderlich = samt und sonders, ganz und gar = all and sundry, completely

entpohrung = Empörung, Aufstand = uprising, rebellion

kunthlich = offenbar = obvious, known

Zuerwucken - context?

furgetrucktem - context?

beylegung = beilegung = settlement

benohlen = befohlen = ordered

Erbhuldigung = Huldigung = Attornment, acknowledgement of a new sovereign by the Estates

This might be of help:
http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/mittelhochdeutscheswoerterbuch/mhdwbhin.html

Good luck!

Eirien

You did quite a good job on this difficult text, Furet! I would yet come up with something different in parts, e.g.

Liebe getrewe,
is the addressing line, so would translate
Dear faithful (trusty) followers

allen und jeden unnsern unnd unnseres stiffts underthanen
The "stifft" is missing in your translations, so: ... our and our monastry's subjects

wie wol, modern spelling wiewohl = although
solcher brief ist wider gegebe
It is true that "wiedergeben" can be a synonym for "reproduce" in modern German, but I am far from certain that it was already used in this sense in the 1500s - I would take it here quite literally as "returned": such a letter was returned and had in our (?) possession (Why is there an ellipsis before "... Gewalt"?)

furgetrucktem is a similar case - it does not necessarily have to refer to printing (which was already in use at the time, but rather for book printing than for letters), but can also mean vorrücken, vorwärts drücken = progress, advance, press on

For the rest I'd agree with palaver: we would need some context to be able to determine what is meant.

Amtmann

Hi there Eirien,

The elipsis is there because in the manuscript the word has been smudged and damaged by time, and I cannot make it out. By the way, in this context, I believe that Stifft refers to a diocese or a bishopric, as the document was written on behalf of the Prince-Bishop of the Hochstift Wuerzburg. After the term "in dem gewalt" comes

"vorschriben unnd vorpflichtet habt euch hynfuer bey andren briefe In entpohrung oder aufruhr nit mehr zugeben, unnd wo sich eyner oder mehr undter euch kamff tiger [could this be kampftiger?] zeyt in ungehorsams oder entporhung einzulassen, unnd also newe aufruer zumachen unterstuende oder vorhette den oder diselbigen so bald ir oder ayner [einer] aus euch solchs erfarn [erfahren] oder innen werdet, unns oder unnser benelhabern bey ewren pflichten anzuzeigen, und sie zuordient straff prengen [bringen?] zuhelffen, So vzb[unknown contraction] --[word difficult to discern] doch Izunt staetlich an, wie etliche auss euch verbedachtet Irer gethanen pflichten, sich heymlichen hyn und wider newe mentterey Zuerwucken, unnd dann etliche auss unnserm Stiffte an frembde ort zulauffen sich wider Kay. M. [I believe this is an abbreviation for Kaiser Maximilian) unser aller gnedigsten Herren den Loeblichen Bundt zu Schwaben [reference obviously to the Swabian League], unnd des verwandte zugeprauchen[brauchen] umb[unsure if my transcription of 'umb' is correct here]"....

and it goes on for another 15 lines or so. Since this is the first such text I've tried to translate I don't feel too bad in asking for help. I can read the documents quite well now, even though they are composed in a very unfamiliar script and hand. So, I've made good progress with my palaeographical skills thusfar. But I feel no shame in saying that I find the language very difficult to understand at the moment. I can recognise each word and can visualise how they would appear if spelt in the conventional way, but the syntax is very strange (for me at any rate). Still, it is kind of fun! And by the way, I will be PMing each of you for your proper names (if you wish to give them), as you all deserve some acknowledgement in whatever publication I eventually produce.

palaver

Ah, no, a slap on the back will do...:D

It's actually quite fun to help you out. I am a translator but just from boring English to German. Trying to translate from the language of my ancestors is quite interesting and challenging and a welcome change.

I'll try my luck with the text you posted. Now I'm hooked.

Eirien

I'm fully with you on this, palaver, this is actually fun!

The first part of the new section is rather clear, I even venture to make a guess at

kamff tiger [could this be kampftiger?] zeyt
- maybe misspelt (or misread?) for kümfftiger = künftiger, so: künftiger Zeit (= henceforward)

zuordient = maybe zu verdient (? at least it would fit in here)

but I cannot make head or tail of

vzb[unknown contraction] --[word difficult to discern]

or the "mentterey Zuerwucken" part - so my idea is, Furet, could you scan the manuscript as it is and post it here, or upload it somewhere for us to have a look at the writing? Maybe we will be able to find out something more from the original.

Amtmann

Here it is! I've not transcribed the bit the scribe crossed out at the top. The very first words on the top left of the page are "in entporhueng".

peasant

yeah ..the original manuscript really helps ...not.

Can only "read" it because i know what it is supposed to mean already.

Anyhow ...my guess is that "mentterey" actually means meutterey = Meuterei = mutiny

Amtmann

peasant wrote: »

yeah ..the original manuscript really helps ...not.

Can only "read" it because i know what it is supposed to mean already.

Anyhow ...my guess is that "mentterey" actually means meutterey = Meuterei = mutiny

Perfect. The "n" is a "u". My transcription isn't 100% perfect; just 99%

Thanks peasant!

Freyfechter

Furet wrote: »

Hi there Eirien,

The elipsis is there because in the manuscript the word has been smudged and damaged by time, and I cannot make it out. By the way, in this context, I believe that Stifft refers to a diocese or a bishopric, as the document was written on behalf of the Prince-Bishop of the Hochstift Wuerzburg. After the term "in dem gewalt" comes

"vorschriben unnd vorpflichtet habt euch hynfuer bey andren briefe In entpohrung oder aufruhr nit mehr zugeben, unnd wo sich eyner oder mehr undter euch kamff tiger [could this be kampftiger?] zeyt in ungehorsams oder entporhung einzulassen, unnd also newe aufruer zumachen unterstuende oder vorhette den oder diselbigen so bald ir oder ayner [einer] aus euch solchs erfarn [erfahren] oder innen werdet, unns oder unnser benelhabern bey ewren pflichten anzuzeigen, und sie zuordient straff prengen [bringen?] zuhelffen, So vzb[unknown contraction] --[word difficult to discern] doch Izunt staetlich an, wie etliche auss euch verbedachtet Irer gethanen pflichten, sich heymlichen hyn und wider newe mentterey Zuerwucken, unnd dann etliche auss unnserm Stiffte an frembde ort zulauffen sich wider Kay. M. [I believe this is an abbreviation for Kaiser Maximilian) unser aller gnedigsten Herren den Loeblichen Bundt zu Schwaben [reference obviously to the Swabian League], unnd des verwandte zugeprauchen[brauchen] umb[unsure if my transcription of 'umb' is correct here]"....

and it goes on for another 15 lines or so. Since this is the first such text I've tried to translate I don't feel too bad in asking for help. I can read the documents quite well now, even though they are composed in a very unfamiliar script and hand. So, I've made good progress with my palaeographical skills thusfar. But I feel no shame in saying that I find the language very difficult to understand at the moment. I can recognise each word and can visualise how they would appear if spelt in the conventional way, but the syntax is very strange (for me at any rate). Still, it is kind of fun! And by the way, I will be PMing each of you for your proper names (if you wish to give them), as you all deserve some acknowledgement in whatever publication I eventually produce.

I believe the KM may mean Kaiserlich Majestat, or Kingly Majesty, No?
I muddle through the various fechtbucher of the late 16th century, especially one. by Christoph Roesner, 1589 Dresden If someone could help me out here please i am banging my head trying to figure out the this last important part:

Und solt er alles rechnen/was in der kunst
mag sein/ Sein Kopff mocht er zerbrechen/ Er
trinckt gerne Wein/ Er Bitt die Edelen Fechter
woln ihm nicht fur ubel han/Ob er ihn nicht
thet rechte/dann er nicht tichten kan.

I have no idea what Tichten means it is similar to Trachten?
Also, Sein Kopf mocht er zerbrechen/ does that mean to Rack one Brains, As in thinking?

Cool site here, i love this. Thanks
Kevin M.

Cheshire Cat

Could "tichten" be "dichten" i.e. rhyme? He can't rhyme, is no poet?!?

CC

Amtmann

Hi Freyfechter, this is a great resource if you haven't already come across it: http://www.germanstudies.org.uk/enhg_dic/enhg_dicdt.htm
Tichten might mean 'to compose' if it's a verb, or 'arrangement' if it's a noun.