Peaceful co-existence, organisations?

Filan

Is there organisations in Ireland that seek to promote understanding between Islam and Christiantity/Judaism and the secular world,ie those of no faith. Was watching the Islam Channel last night and there is some impressive organisations in the Uk seeking to do such. To assure each side that neither is a threat to the other, in their words to promote peaceful co-existence?. Probably something we could do with here.

wes

I am pretty sure there is some inter faith organization around, don't know too much about them however.

Filan

I am not a friend of Islamic doctrine but I do feel that discussion and interaction is the way forward.....between Islam, other faiths and those of no faith....

hivizman

I came across the following document on the website of the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (NCCRI), which is based in Dublin:

The Muslim Community In Ireland: Challenging Some Of The Myths And Misinformation

The document appears to have been written towards the end of 2006. I found the document through a link from the page on Christian-Muslim relations on the Churches Together in Britain and Ireland website

Filan

Thanks , interesting...think the interaction should include those of 'no faith', look we all share this world, and country, best to engage.

Yusuf Mirza

There is one very peacefull community of Muslims (though there are others) in Ireland that has been here for many decades. They are called THE AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT IN ISLAM. I myself am a menber od this blessed community. Our otto is "LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FOR NONE"

We have two centeres in Ireland. One in Galway and one in Dublin. If you would like any more info you can email me inshallah

irishconvert

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

There is one very peacefull community of Muslims (though there are others) in Ireland that has been here for many decades. They are called THE AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT IN ISLAM. I myself am a menber od this blessed community. Our otto is "LOVE FOR ALL, HATRED FOR NONE"

We have two centeres in Ireland. One in Galway and one in Dublin. If you would like any more info you can email me inshallah

For any non-Muslims reading please note that there are many differences between Ahmadiyyas and mainstream Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

We do not consider Ahmadiyyas to be Muslims.

Filan

Thanks Yusuf, actually remember seeing a stand on Shop St to do with your branch of Islam a few years ago, didn't realise then though that it was distinct from other schools of Islam. Remember the 'love for all, hatred for none' term, must have been one of you?.

It's understandable that people are uncertain about difference, so I think communication could help to promote mutual reassurance and thus harmoniously co-exist.

vHOST

irishconvert wrote: »

For any non-Muslims reading please note that there are many differences between Ahmadiyyas and mainstream Muslims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya
We do not consider Ahmadiyyas to be Muslims.

^ Agree 100%

Yusuf Mirza

AA Brother;

Alhamdoillah you are a convert like me “Irishconvert”. Not a great advert for Islam though are you. Have you been a Muslim a whole week now? And already you are calling people disbeliever. Alhamdoillah I know my Quran and the Alay Sunnah, the Sirat of Razool Karim salalahu alahi wasalam inside and out. Definitely we are the most true Muslims. The Quran says categorically that Jesus is dead and alhamdoillah (and there is no Arab I have ever sat with that can deny this)it speaks of another to come. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Alahi Salam is that very Prophet who was to come under the Khataahmiyyat of the Holy Prophet (SAW).


Narrated Abu Musa: Some people asked Allah's Apostle, "Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good muslim)?" He replied, "One who avoids harming the muslims with his tongue and hands." (Sahi Bukari)


I believe in the Prophets, the Books, the angels, the Decree of Allah and the Last day. I say “there is none worthy of Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger” According to the Quran, Sunnah and The Holy Prophet himself that makes one a Muslim. If you disagree with it then it is from your own heart and not the lips of the Blessed Razool (saw). We believe the Muhammad is the Last Prophet of Shariat and no more can come now because Islam is final. Whether we believe in Isa himself returning as a Prophet or one simply title Isa is not cause for declaring us Kafir.


O ye who believe! when you go forth in the cause of Allah, make proper investigation and say not to anyone who greets you with the greeting of peace, ‘Thou art not a believer.’ You seek the goods of this life, but with Allah are good things in plenty. Such were you before this, but Allah conferred His special favour on you; so do make proper investigation. Surely, Allah is well aware of what you do.
Al-Nisa' Chapter 4 : Verse 95


So according to this verse be very sure if you have any fear of Allah at all in your heart that you are being told the right thing “Irish convert”


How unfortunate you have become that you have met paths with me “Irish Convert”. I can show you what Alay Sunnah is all about Subhan Allah. I implore you to accept the Promised Messiah and Mahdi (as) and come back into the fold of True Islam lest you fall off the edge.

Yusuf Mirza:D

Yusuf Mirza

Death of Isa ibn Miriam according to Qur’an

Part 1

Based on the research of Mulana Ibrahim Ahmad Noonan

اللّٰهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْاَنْفُسَ حِيْنَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِىْ لَمْ تَمُتْ فِىْ مَنَامِهَا*ۚ

Allah takes away the souls of the human beings at the time of their death and during their sleep, of those that are not yet dead…

Surah al Zumar: verse 43

The word Death and the meaning of death takes some different forms and
meanings in the Qur’an Kareem, like spiritual death 6:37 and torment 14:18. In one verse Allah explains two very particular types of death. In Surah al Zumar verse 43 Allah illustrates how he takes away the soul of a person and causes death.

He mentions two types of death here orمُتْ“mout”. Mout means death. It is the
question only of how this word is used and what type of death is being brought about.


The first kind is that death which is when He uses the word هُ يَتَوَفَّى“Tawaaffa”derives from “Wafat” meaning that taking of the soul away which is total death, which is natural, and also that death which comes at the end of a full life. Then He secondly goes on to mention that death which is merely sleep. That when we sleep He takes the souls while of course the body remains alive, and he sends them back and
others he keeps.


The word used here in relation to that “Mout” isَنَامِ“Naim”. Naim means sleep. So we read two types of taking of the soul mentioned here by Allah subahanat’Allah. Death meaning total physical death and death meaning only sleep where the body is alive which is a type of death. In fact Allah goes on to say that as to those who are sleeping, it is a state in which he takes the souls of those “who are not yet dead”. Allah here differentiated clearly between the different meanings of death and who is better to differentiate then Almighty Allah.



So we read: Allah takes away the souls of the human beings at the time of their death (Tawaffah); and during their sleep (Naim) of those that are not yet dead… Can any Muslim say that this verse says that tawaffa here means sleep also so that it would read “Allah makes human beings sleep, at the time of their death in the way which he has decreed not for them to die and during their sleep of those also that are
not yet dead”? Besides the fact that it would not make any sense so also that the verse would say that Allah causes not anyone to die and never has and that they are only sleeping and not physically dead? So does that mean that our dead relatives have been buried alive and that they are physically alive and merely sleeping? No of course not. No Arab dictionary, lexicon or commentator of that has ever translated that word as such in any capacity. Not that there could possibly be any argument against what is clear and apparent. There is no translator in the world who would ever or could ever conceive of this perverted meaning in this verse. Yet when the same word is used in relation to Isa ibn Miriam it magically comes to also mean sleep. There are those that are physically dead and whose souls are brought to Allah and those that are merely sleeping and that that is a type of death. But their bodies are alive and they are not physically dead. Yet Allah takes their souls and sends them back for he has not decreed their death at that time. The difference between Waffat and Naim is the difference between being physically dead and just asleep.

ْ ْ اِذْ قَالَ اللّٰهُ يٰعِيْسٰىۤ اِنِّىْ مُتَوَفِّيْكَ وَرَافِعُكَ اِلَىَّ

Ya Isa inne Mutuwaffeka, was rafi’ukah illayah..


Oh Isa I shall cause you to die and exalt you to myself..


Sural al Imran verse 63

So let us now see what type of “mout” i.e. death is mentioned in Sural al Imran verse 63. هُ يٰعِيْسٰىۤ اِنِّىْ مُتَوَفِّيْكَYa Isa inne Moutawaffika.That O Isa I shall cause your death. And the word Tawaffah here shows that that death is definitely that total and natural death (Waffat) when the life span is completed and not at all sleep. In fact sleep (Naim) is not mentioned at all. Therefore this verse is very clear.



Also Allah is saying here not just that O Isa I shall cause you to die in that way which is natural meaning not forced or untimely, but that, as I have mentioned earlier, that it also means that O Isa I shall complete your life. That Allah is saying that He shall be the one that shall decree his death, the time of his death, the mode of his death, the place of his death. That being the Rab He shall be the deciding factor and not any other person, persons or force but that O Isa I shall cause your death that I shall be the one to cause your death only. This is wholly in keeping with the meaning of Waffat. After all, Allah repeatedly declares in the Qur’an that only he has the power over life and death and that he decrees when one is to die.



Some are at least sensible enough not to refute this because of the ensuing
embarrassment of being exposed as ignorant. Some then try to wiggle out
by saying that this is referring to the future after Isa ibn Miriam returns
to earth and has completed his mission. I also make it clear, the undeniable fact that this verse is relating to the past. Remember ْ اِذْ قَالَ“IdhQaala” that WhenAllah said O Isa.. This is referring to the past that this happened in the past. It has already passed. It is not for the future. Also Allah says that “to me shall be your return” . So if this is the future then Isa has not returned to Allah, which is as you believe what Raf’a is literally. This is what we called shooting ones self in the foot. Either way the argument unravels. Of course I am simply entertaining your benefit in a hope to inject some logic into your mind inshallah on this issue brother. This is fantasy and directly opposed to Al Qur’an.



Lexicons of Arabic tell us that tawaffa Allahu fulan-an, i.e., ‘God did the act of tawaffa to such a one’, means that God took his soul and caused him to die. This is the meaning given in Taj al-‘urus, Al-Qamus, Surah, Asas al-Balaghah, Al-Sihah and Kullyat abi-l-Baqa.





Evidences from Tafsirs and commentaries of the great Imams;
The biggest lie is that the belief in the death of Isa ibn Miriam is a new belief and that the Ahmadiyya Muslims made it up. This actually is the lie. Here are some clear evidences, thought there are many more, that will show you that this is an understanding that goes all the way back to Razool Allah (saw).

Explaining the Quranic verse, "O Jesus, I will cause thee to die (mutawaffi-ka)", Ibn Abbas is recorded as saying: "Ibn Abbas said: mutawaffi-ka means ‘I will cause thee to die(mumitu-ka) ’." (Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, on verse 5:110).

Of Imam Malik, one of the four imams of jurisprudence (fiqh), it is written: "While most people believe that Jesus did not die, Malik said that he died." (Majma al-Bahar, vol. i, p. 286)
"In the ‘Utbiyya it is written that Malik said that Jesus, son of Mary, died." (Ikmal al-ikmal, Sharh of Muslim, vol. i, p. 265)

In the famous Tafsir ibn Kathir it is written that:The Holy Prophet Muhammad said: "Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Al-Yawaqit wal-Jawahir, p. 24; Fath al-Bayan, vol. 2, p. 246;
Tafsir Ibn Kathir: vol 2, pg 245 under verse 81 of Al Imran)




No we must ask that if Ibn Kathir believed absolutely that Isa (as) was alive in heaven then why is it that he has deliberately added this Hadit which clearly states that Isa ibn Miriam was dead by the time of the life of Razool Kareem (saw)?

It means that he believed at least in the possibility that Isa (as) is dead according to the Qur’an and this hadit was found by him so reliable as to add it to his work.


Again on this HadithClassical Scholar Maulana Sayyid Abdud-Da’im Jalali writes:"It is recorded in an authentic hadith that the Holy Prophet Muhammad stated: ‘Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me’." (Tafsir Bayan as-Subhan, on Part 3, p. 349)

Does this mean to you or do you say now that aoozoobillah both he and Ibn Kathir were Kafir because they agreed with this Hadit? Are you more knowledgeable then them? Is it that trough your research you have realised what they did not and found some unreliability in this transition?


Another Classical scholar Imam Ibn Hazm, Amawi Zahiri Qurtabi, writes:
"Jesus, peace be upon him, was neither killed nor crucified, but God caused him to die and then raised him. The Almighty has said: ‘They did not kill him or crucify him’; and ‘I will cause thee to die and exalt thee’; and ‘I (Jesus) was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die Thou wert the Watcher over them’ and ‘Allah takes souls (yatawaffa) at the time of death’. Thus there are two kinds of wafat: sleep and death. Jesus in his words ‘When Thou didst cause me to die (falamma tawaffaita-ni)’ was not referring to sleep, but it is correct that by wafat he meant death."
(Mahalli fil-Fiqh, p. 23)





Abdullah Yusuf Ali, in the first edition of his English translation and commentary of the Holy Quran, rendered verse 3:55 as: "I will take thy soul and raise thee to Myself." In the footnote at this point in the first edition, he wrote:

"Read this along with 4:157 where it is said that the Jews neither crucified nor killed
Jesus, but that another was killed in his likeness. The guilt of the Jews remained. But Jesus completed his life and was when he died taken up to God."

Later it was removed by others after his death. One must ask why?



Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University, Cairo, writes:

i. "There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days."
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

ii. "The Quranic verses in this connection indicate that God had promised Jesus that He would cause him to die at the appointed time, and elevate him to Himself, and protect him from the disbelievers. This promise has been fulfilled. His enemies could not kill him or crucify him; instead, God caused him to die at the end of his appointed term and elevated him to Himself."
(Ibid.)

Meaning of Raf’a

In relation to Rafa this is very simple. That I shall exalt thee to myself. The so called Orthodox Muslims believe this to be physical and not spiritual only. In Arabic the opposite of this pair is Wad’a which means disgrace, degradation, being sent to the furthest away or lowest part. So of course Raf’a means the opposite i.e. Being lifted from one place to another, being brought near, vindication, exaltation. It does not mean one will fly into the clouds physically. In every lexicon, in every commentary and dictionary of Arabic this is always the case. Also whenever this word is used elsewhere in the Qur’an its meaning as exalted.



The only time that it can be used in the literal sense is when something is spoken of
within 4 dimensional space i.e. the temporal world. Because Allah is not to be found in any one specific place as apposed to all others in 4 dimensional space this physical Raf’a can never apply. This is the rule. When ever Allah is the subject and man is the object the only meaning of Raf’a is in the spiritual sense, of exaltation, of raising in stature and honour.

_____________________________________________________________________

In his Quranic commentary, the Shaikh al-Akbar Muhayy-ud-Din Ibn Arabi writes: "The raising (raf‘) of Jesus means that, at the time of separation, his soul was raised from the lower world to the higher world. And his being in the fourth heaven signifies that the source of his soul’s benefit is the spirituality of that sun’s sky which resembles the heart of the world, and towards that is his place of return. That spirituality is a light which illumines that heaven with its love, and the shining of the rays upon his soul is done by its stimulation. And as Jesus’ place of return is towards its real place of rest, and cannot attain its true development, his (Jesus’) descent in the latter days will be in a different body."
_____________________________________________________________________

(Commentary up Shaikh al-Islam Shams-ud-Din Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, known as Hafiz Ibn Qayyim, wrote: "As for what is related about the Messiah that he was raised up to heaven at the age of 33 years, there is no sound authority for this which one could turn to."
(Zad al-Ma‘ad, vol. i, p. 20)

And:

"With the exception of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, a person attains to heaven with his spirit only after death and separation from the body, so the spirits of all prophets went to heaven only after death and separation from the body." (ibid., p. 304) on verse ‘God raised him to Himself’, p. 65)

So above Ibn Qayyim is saying that he does not believe at all that Isa ibn Miriam is alive in heaven. That with the exception of the Holy Prophet (saw) no other can go up to heaven except after death (Waffat)



Allama Juba’i is reported as saying: This verse shows that God caused Jesus to die (amata) and brought about his death (tawaffa-hu), and then raised him (Raf’a) to himself."
(Commentary Majma‘ al-Bayan, vol. i, under verse falamma tawaffaita-ni) (Bahr al-Muhit, vol. iv, p. 4)



Even the enemies of Ahmadiyya Islam agree with us on the death of Isa (as);

Professor Ilyas Barnee, the author of the famous anti-Ahmadiyya book Qadiani Mazhab,states in his book Islam:
"As to the second point, how Christ was raised up to God, it is further explained as below: ‘Behold! God said, O Jesus! I will take thy soul (make thee die) and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of falsehoods of those who blaspheme that they crucified thee is cleared by the Quran)’ — section 6 of sura III Al-e Imran.




Sayyid Abul ‘Ala Maudoodi has written the following upon this topic:
"The Quran does not explicitly state that God raised up Jesus, body and soul, from earth to heaven. Nor does it clearly say that he died a natural death on earth, and that only his soul was raised up. Thus, on the basis of the Quran, neither of these views can be definitely negated or confirmed." (Tahfim al-Quran by Maulana Maudoodi, p. 240)

mcmoustache

I've seen quite a few threads calling Yusuf Mirza a non-muslim. As a non-muslim I find it odd. I know the wahabis don't consider the suffi's to be muslims and they are entitled to if they feel that wahabiism is the only islam. It's the same for suffis who see themselves as the true islam. Every sect in the world sees themselves as the One True Faith(TM). But from the outside it's much harder to differentiate. To me (and no offence intended here), a muslim is a follower of Muhammed. Of course, I also consider a christian to be a follower of Jesus. I think Yusuf Mirza is more of a follower of Muhammed than Jesus and so I would see him as a muslim.

Of course, I am fairly ignorant about Ahmadiyya so perhaps it deserves a discussion in it's own thread?