Best Car Of 2009

thegoth

In responce to a debate on a thread here, I have decided to conduct a simple pole. What team had the best overall car package for 2009. Take into account 1 lap speed and race distance performance

amacachi

Over the entire year? Brawn, can't believe anyone would dispute that.

Who had the fastest car at any point? Red Bull, since cars are at their fastest at the end of the season.

Grim.

voted brawn for overall package but when redbull got things right their cars were in a different league

Chopper888

Brawn has to be the car of the year in terms of pace and reliability. Force India should get a mention too for the way they produced a car capable of competing and achieving pole positions at low downforce circuits namely spa and monza.

Slutmonkey57b

Brawn for overall reliability and general package. Red Bull for speed. McLaren for most improvement (in fact the car is probably ahead of the Brawns over the past few races). The Ferrari is evidently a nightmare. Toyota might have a good car or might not.

While this seems like a clean sweep for Brawn, you have to remember that the cars have been seperated by 1-1.5 seconds from front to back most of the year. That's phenomenal.

I think Red Bull have had the fastest car overall, sometimes by quite a large margin. Even when they were at a performance deficit at the start of the year, it wasn't as much as was made out to be. But it also appears to have been made by British Leyland, with bits falling off and the electrics cutting out at random.

Next year's season should be fascinating. I think Brawn have more in the way of headroom when it comes to improving their car than Red Bull do. McLaren I think will be very very strong. Probably better than Brawn or RB. Ferrari I predict will create another dog of a car. I just don't get the impression they know where to go.

thegoth

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Brawn for overall reliability and general package. Red Bull for speed. McLaren for most improvement (in fact the car is probably ahead of the Brawns over the past few races). The Ferrari is evidently a nightmare. Toyota might have a good car or might not.

Bearing in mind your quote below which can be found here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055715554&page=6 it seems like you voted for Red Bull ?

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I think I covered my point of view on Button in the other thread, but what I'll state here covers it:
The argument "He's no good really, he can only win in the fastest car on the grid" is easily counteracted by pointing out that since race 8, Red Bull have had the fastest car on the grid - and did not win the races.

So what car got your vote ? Mine went to Brawn

PLEASE PLEASE DONT TURN THIS INTO A BUTTON THREAD. ITS ABOUT THE CARS

Slutmonkey57b

IF Red Bull had been able to sort their reliability issues, they'd have won this poll. As it is, Brawn are Constructor's champions and have the best car overall. What's most interesting about the Brawn cars is just how tight and compromised they are. Six inches sawed off the back of the car, gearbox, engine, and exhausts in the wrong place, cooling system not working properly, only 3 chassis for the whole year, can't move the ballast around as much as other teams, it's amazing that the car is as good as it is. Brawn have been pretty quiet on upgrades the last half of the year, but the revealing comment from Ross is that their 2010 team has been working since the start of the year, and they haven't had to divert resources. So the argument that "this year's car got a full year, next year's won't be as good" is looking shakey.

smooch71

Brawn I guess, one of the nicest looking cars too.

As a longtime Ferrari fan I'm ashamed to say that they shouldn't even feature on this poll.

Cookie_Monster

Red Bull with a merc engine would have been the best. Its a pity (not really though:)) the renault engine was so unreliable

amacachi

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So the argument that "this year's car got a full year, next year's won't be as good" is looking shakey.

Depends on exactly how he has the team running though, I'd say it was hard for him to bring in the people he wanted to improve the team while letting a coupla hundred people go.

projectmayhem

smooch71 wrote: »

Brawn I guess, one of the nicest looking cars too.

As a longtime Ferrari fan I'm ashamed to say that they shouldn't even feature on this poll.

Same here. I've been a Ferrari fan since I was a young kid and this years car was a shambles compared to what they should be producing.

It'd take a hard man to vote against Brawn's car this year. The car was solid over the whole year. For a new team to come in and clean up the honours in one year is impressive...

Vegeta

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Red Bull with a merc engine would have been the best. Its a pity (not really though:)) the renault engine was so unreliable

You know I'd nearly agree with this

But in terms of the poll its Brawn all the way.

EvilMonkey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Red Bull with a merc engine would have been the best. Its a pity (not really though:)) the renault engine was so unreliable

That's why they want it next year, and why McLaren don't want them to get it

thegoth

So anyone going to admit voting for Red Bull ? Slutmonkey57b ? Someone did

frostie500

EvilMonkey wrote: »

That's why they want it next year, and why McLaren don't want them to get it

McLaren has no say in who Mercedes supply engines to. They previously had an exclusive deal but in 2004(I think) they decided to give this clause up in their contract hence the other teams with Mercedes engines.

The only thing that McLaren have a say in at present is Mercedes buying an interest in another team. Until 2012 this clause is in effect and as a result the purchase of shares in Brawn is being done by an investment bank owned by Daimler Chrysler and not Mercedes. Once 2012 comes and this clause is not in effect then Mercedes will take over the ownership of these shares.

EvilMonkey

Helmut Marko has confirmed that McLaren is vetoing Red Bull Racing's preferred switch to Mercedes power in 2010.

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/formula-1/f1-red-bull-has-to-wait-for-mclaren-to-solve-engine-issues?artid=112467

smooch71

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Good idea for a thread, anybody who votes anything other than the Brawn needs their head checked. A vote for the Mclaren will result in a instant ban

You don't think this is putting people under pressure at all do you?

I've never seen such a clear cut poll in my life!

thegoth

I just started this pole, as I had a debate on another thread with someone who said

"since race 8, Red Bull have had the fastest car on the grid - and did not win the races."

Just wanted to get other peoples views to see if other people shared this view as I dont

Firewalkwithme

thegoth wrote: »

So anyone going to admit voting for Red Bull ? Slutmonkey57b ? Someone did

Brawn was obviously the best car - nobody would seriously dispute that but since you were trying to prove some kind of point by posting up this poll I just thought I'd mess with your head a bit by voting for Red Bull and wait for you to assume Slutmonkey had voted for them.

I love it when a plan comes together

smooch71

thegoth wrote: »

So anyone going to admit voting for Red Bull ? Slutmonkey57b ? Someone did

I reckon it was Cookie Monster

Vegeta

thegoth wrote: »

I just started this pole, as I had a debate on another thread with someone who said

"since race 8, Red Bull have had the fastest car on the grid - and did not win the races."

Just wanted to get other peoples views to see if other people shared this view as I dont

Well in the last 8 races a Red Bull car set the fastest lap in 5.

In the last 2 races Brazil and Japan, Weber set the fastest and Vettel was second fastest.

I cant really argue that the car was not one of the fastest in the last 8 races, if not the fastest.

Mark had 3 of those fastest laps and Vettel had 2

Slutmonkey57b

Nice one Cartoon Head.

Maybe DC was posting here under an alias?

Anyway, despite the clear cut nature of the poll, Brawn having the best car overall, over the course of the season, doesn't change whether or not the Red Bull was on average the fastest in the last 8 races, does it?

Like I said in my post, I think that Red Bull don't lose this poll because they're slower than Brawn, but because they're less reliable. There is more than just pure speed that makes the "best car". Of course, if Vettel and Webber hadn't binned their cars so often, we'd have a clearer picture.

Cookie_Monster

smooch71 wrote: »

I reckon it was Cookie Monster

not guilty.

I voted brawn but thought I should make the arguement against it also. There was a vote for RBR before I voted

thegoth

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Anyway, despite the clear cut nature of the poll, Brawn having the best car overall, over the course of the season, doesn't change whether or not the Red Bull was on average the fastest in the last 8 races, does it?

If Red Bull had the fastest car for 8 races, then that makes Red Bull the fastest car for the season !!

16 races gone. At spa Ferrari and Force India were fastest. That only leaves 7 races at most that Brawn could be fastest !!

8 is greater than 7

Therefore RedBull is fastest by that logic

EvilMonkey

Fastest dose not necessarily mean best.

Slutmonkey57b

Exactly my point. Brawn had the best total car package, taking into account speed, reliability, adaptiveness, stability over the course of the whole year. Red Bull beat them on some counts and lost on others. McLaren currently have a much faster, and equally reliable car to Brawn, but didn't at the start of the season, so lose out.

Anyone hoping this thread was going to prove a point in another thread I think will end up being disappointed.

Kersh

Brawn all the way.

the renault engine was so unreliable

Only in (usually) Vettels Red Bull, did Renault F1 actually blow one up, I cant recall? I dont think they did.

Slutmonkey57b

Very true. Much has been made of the Renault's "problems", but it only has problems on one car.

Iron Hide

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Very true. Much has been made of the Renault's "problems", but it only has problems on one car.

Aye that tells more of a story about Vettel rather than the actual engine.The Brawn car gets my vote here, great chassis, great engine and a pretty damn good-looking car too... Force India deserve an honourable mention for Spa and Monza though..

EvilMonkey

Red Storm wrote: »

Aye that tells more of a story about Vettel rather than the actual engine.The Brawn car gets my vote here, great chassis, great engine and a pretty damn good-looking car too... Force India deserve an honourable mention for Spa and Monza though..

Or the Renault engineers in charge of Vettel's engines

Slutmonkey57b

Either way, the fact remains that the engine itself is not inherently to blame. If it was, then other drivers would have had big problems with it, and they didn't.

Iron Hide

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Or the Renault engineers in charge of Vettel's engines

Aye i didn't think of that actually good point.. If Red Bull's car is as quick next year and if its got a more reliable (Mercedes) powerplant i reckon Vettel will have a serious shot at the title.... Hope to god that Ferrari get their arses in gear with next years car too.. For Massa's sake rather than Alonso tbh..

Slutmonkey57b

You're missing the point though - everyone is bandwagon-hopping and stating "the renault engine" is unreliable, and the Mercedes is better. Only one driver had problems with "the renault engine", and he was driving a car that fell to bits mid race and switched itself off going over corners!

"The renault engine" had bulletproof reliability when it wasn't in Vettel's car.

thegoth

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You're missing the point though - everyone is bandwagon-hopping and stating "the renault engine" is unreliable, and the Mercedes is better. Only one driver had problems with "the renault engine", and he was driving a car that fell to bits mid race and switched itself off going over corners!

"The renault engine" had bulletproof reliability when it wasn't in Vettel's car.

100% Agree. The only issue is what is the cause. Its either the driver or as Martin Brundle suspects, an installation issue, which would mean its an engineer(s) fault. All anyone here can do is guess at this. Its worth noting that Renaulty have not come out saying that its Vettels fault even when they know Red Bull are looking for another engine supplier