The Public Sector is sick

PJW

....twice as sick as Private Sector!

The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.

The report shows three out of five civil servants take leave and the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.

But watch out because....The department said an up-to-date and robust policy to manage sick leave was at an advanced stage of negotiation with the unions......Yeah right, when will it be implemented



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-1922474.html

dodgyme

PJW wrote: »

....twice as sick as Private Sector!

Its the stress of having a confortable secure and pensionable job

The Saint

Already being discussed here

irish_bob

PJW wrote: »

....twice as sick as Private Sector!

The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.

The report shows three out of five civil servants take leave and the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.

But watch out because....The department said an up-to-date and robust policy to manage sick leave was at an advanced stage of negotiation with the unions......Yeah right, when will it be implemented




http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-1922474.html

the astonishing level of absinteeism is just another symptom of the culture that exists within the public sector , its just expected that you take your sick days , those who dont partake in such practices are often ostracised and pressurised into taking them so as to not make others look bad , i know someone who is a nurse and her colleages would comment on the fact that she has not taken that many sick days this year , thier is in many ways a herd mentality and independant reasoning is often scorned

cyclopath2001

PJW wrote: »

the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.

So, public servants are worth double their pay?

tallaght01

Obviously a lot of this anti-public sector forum is just blind anger, which is fair enough. You need someone to be angry at during tough times.

But this issue is a lot more simple than it seems. The public sector get treated fairly when it comes to sick leave. The private sector do not.

1 r 2 weeks of sick leave per year is a reasonable average (and don't forget we'e talking about an average, which is a figure of dubious relevance when the sectors are very different sizes).

The problem is the public sector take their sick leave until they're better. The private sector are often chasing the dollar, so they don't. They just bring their flu into the office, nd further decrease their colleagues' productivity.

Ironically, this all happens under the guise of the romantic notion of high private sector efficiency that the 10 people who post here like to believe.

When I was managing swine flu outbreaks in oz, I dealt a lot with workplace outbreaks. When somewhere like a govt office had an outbreak I sent the sick home for a few days, and the outreak died out.
when it was a private company, people who were mad for promotion would come back while still ill and spread the viral joy. They think they're a martyr, but the company suffers.

This is a pattern in most countries I've worked in. The figures mean nothing unless private sector workers can claim they're not going into work sick.

The Saint

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

So, public servants are worth double their pay?

They get paid for the day they didn't work and that days work still has to be done therefore wasting time/money.

Matthew712

If the total wage bill of the public sector is 20bn and according to you the cost of sick leave is 64m or evan double 126m, this is at worse 128/20000 or .0064% ie less than 1% or less tha 2 days a year. If this upsets you,you'll be very sick yourself, when swine flu throws the stats through the roof.
scenario
Teacher with swine flu (worried about public service sick day stats) comes to work -- spreading infection to 10 kids and coworkers -- result -- Claims against the state, more coworkers sick etc)
Nurse with swine flu (worried about public service sick day stats) comes to work -- spreading infection to 10+ patients and coworkers -- result -- Claims against the state, more patients sick, more coworkers sick etc)
Private sector worker (thoses still working) (worried about their pay) Comes to work -- spreading infection coworkers,and customers -- result - who gives a **** - I git paid

KevinH

PJW wrote: »

....twice as sick as Private Sector!

The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.

The report shows three out of five civil servants take leave and the direct cost of absenteeism is €64m. But the all-in cost to the country is reckoned to be double this amount.

But watch out because....The department said an up-to-date and robust policy to manage sick leave was at an advanced stage of negotiation with the unions......Yeah right, when will it be implemented



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sick-leave-in-public-service-is-twice-the-rate-of-private-sector-1922474.html

So 2/5 civil servants take 0 days a year. Assuming this holds true for women and men it means that the women who do take sick leave average 23.33 days a year and men who do take sick leave average 13.33 days a year.

These figures suggest to me that there is a relatively small number of women and men who absolutely take the p1ss with sick days and drive the average up for everybody.

Arnold Layne

tallaght01 wrote: »

The problem is the public sector take their sick leave until they're better. The private sector are often chasing the dollar, so they don't. They just bring their flu into the office, nd further decrease their colleagues' productivity.

The Public Sector Sector get paid for their sick leave until they feel better for unlimited days, whereas the Private Sector worker does not get paid for sick days after usually over 3 uncertified days a year (if on salary, nothing if on an hourly rate like a production operative); hence "chasing the dollar" as you call it.

Absurdum

Arnold Layne wrote: »

The Public Sector Sector get paid for their sick leave until they feel better for unlimited days

not true

Arnold Layne

Matthew712 wrote: »

Private sector worker (thoses still working) (worried about their pay) Comes to work -- spreading infection coworkers,and customers -- result - who gives a **** - I git paid

In relation to the Public Sector worker who can stay at home and still get paid.

Why doesn't the Government pay Private Sector employees to stay at home if they fill a sniffle coming on in the coming months, especially on a cold, wet Monday morning? After all both sectors have taken paycuts, and I use that term loosely in relation to the Public Sector cuts, and pay the income and health levies!

Absurdum

Arnold Layne wrote: »

In relation to the Public Sector worker who can stay at home and still get paid.

Why doesn't the Government pay Private Sector employees to stay at home if they fill a sniffle coming on in the coming months, especially on a cold, wet Monday morning? After all both sectors have taken paycuts, and I use that term loosely in relation to the Public Sector cuts, and pay the income and health levies!

The Government do pay private sector employees a form of sick pay, it's called Illness Benefit. Why would they pay them anything more? They aren't their employees like public sector workers are.

Details of public sector sick leave are available on http://www.codpearsanra.gov.ie/Search.aspx (search for "sick leave") if you feel like educating yourself on them.

tallaght01

Arnold Layne wrote: »

In relation to the Public Sector worker who can stay at home and still get paid.

Why doesn't the Government pay Private Sector employees to stay at home if they fill a sniffle coming on in the coming months, especially on a cold, wet Monday morning? After all both sectors have taken paycuts, and I use that term loosely in relation to the Public Sector cuts, and pay the income and health levies!

Both SECTORS have taken cuts. BUt am I right in saying not all employees have taken cuts?

The point still stands, though. The private sector puts pressure on it's employees to come in when they're sick.

That's not the public sector's fault. Though I appreciate it's important to blame everything on the public sector.

Arnold Layne

tallaght01 wrote: »

Both SECTORS have taken cuts. BUt am I right in saying not all employees have taken cuts?

The point still stands, though. The private sector puts pressure on it's employees to come in when they're sick.

That's not the public sector's fault. Though I appreciate it's important to blame everything on the public sector.

Not all Private Sector employees have taken paycuts but many are working 3 day weeks especially in SME's. Others in the large multinationals have been forced to take an occasional week off and use up holidays, if no holidays remain, then it is unpaid leave. This practice goes unreported as these people cannot sign on for the week off as it SW payments are initiated a week after unemployment.

It is not the Public Sector's fault, but it is the government's. Certified & Uncertified Sick Days should be the same for both sectors, where was the partnership there?

The same could be said in relation to pensions. If a Public Sector worker does not want to pay the levy for their pension, they should be able to opt out and pay a contribution to their own through the PRSA. I doubt there would be many takers.

Arnold Layne

Absurdum wrote: »

not true

Whats the limit for uncertified sick days?

Matthew712

Because our government for the last 10 years has been more Boston than Berlin when it comes to control and care of its people.
Remember
Greed is good
The Strong survive
The meek will inherit the earth
Why contribute to social welfare? -- I'll never need it.
I don't need a pension -- I'm young-- I'll never age.
I make the wealth -- so it's mind
Sh-it
I made a Loss -- It should be shared
I sold my soul to the devil for bonuses
Now the bonuses are gone -- I want Jesus

johnathan woss

Arnold Layne wrote: »

The same could be said in relation to pensions. If a Public Sector worker does not want to pay the levy for their pension, they should be able to opt out and pay a contribution to their own through the PRSA. I doubt there would be many takers.

You reckon ?

No one is going to see the pension they've paid into.
Where do you think the money is going to magically appear from ?

tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote: »

Both SECTORS have taken cuts. BUt am I right in saying not all employees have taken cuts?

The point still stands, though. The private sector puts pressure on it's employees to come in when they're sick.

That's not the public sector's fault. Though I appreciate it's important to blame everything on the public sector.

Ah ok. It's just being in oz I wasn't so sure. It seemed from this board that all workers have taken pay cuts.

So it's just all public sector workers and some private sector workers who have taken cuts.

And the private sector workers who haven't taken cuts won't be offering to take them. But they want all the public sector workers to take another cut. Got it.

Now the ozzies tell me that the Irish are crazy...but, eh, I don't believe them.

Arnold Layne

tallaght01 wrote: »

Ah ok. It's just being in oz I wasn't so sure. It seemed from this board that all workers have taken pay cuts.

So it's just all public sector workers and some private sector workers who have taken cuts.

And the private sector workers who haven't taken cuts won't be offering to take them. But they want all the public sector workers to take another cut. Got it.

Now the ozzies tell me that the Irish are crazy...but, eh, I don't believe them.

Please explain, since you quoted yourself.

How has Public Sector employee taken a paycut if they have to pay more into their own pension? As I stated, for statistics, a Private Sector worker on a 3 or 4 day week has not necessarily taken a pay cut but "reduced working hours" and a week off is not reported in any media as it does not meet IDA reequirements for grant aid.

There has to be some realism in relation to the whole Public/Private Sector Debate. People are saying the Private Sector benefited from the boom, well only the CEO's and Senior Management did. The Public Sector also benefited from the boom, except it wasn't CEO's but the likes of O'Connor, Begg, McLoone, et al.

It is the normal PAYE Public/Private Sector worker that has been shafted and the top at both`ends have milked it.:mad:

the fella who

Ok, the public sector are going on strike, holding the country to ransom etc...., is there an organisation out there to meet the unions head on?, on the streets, to show private sector anger??? If there is, I am with them

Senna

tallaght01 wrote: »

The problem is the public sector take their sick leave until they're better. The private sector are often chasing the dollar, so they don't. They just bring their flu into the office, nd further decrease their colleagues' productivity.

Matthew712 wrote: »

Private sector worker (thoses still working) (worried about their pay) Comes to work -- spreading infection coworkers,and customers -- result - who gives a **** - I git paid

By those arguments, the private sector workers should be taking more sick days as their co-works spread the sickness rather than take more time off. But the stats say different, funny that?:rolleyes:

herya

tallaght01 wrote: »

So it's just all public sector workers and some private sector workers who have taken cuts.

And the private sector workers who haven't taken cuts won't be offering to take them. But they want all the public sector workers to take another cut. Got it.

Public sector did not take cuts, they got a small pension levy and they kept their jobs. In private sector some workers took real pay cuts, some lost their jobs. Public sector is paid much more for comparable work (plus has a highly valuable bonus of job security) so yes they should be next in line for cuts since the country has no money to pay them so much in these times.

Absurdum

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Whats the limit for uncertified sick days?

From Circular 25/1978:- Sick Leave:

Uncertified sick leave
6. Sick leave for single or two-day absences in total not exceeding seven days in any period of
twelve months may be granted without medical certificate. If the number of days'' absence without
medical certificate in any period of twelve months, reckoning backwards from the date of the latest
absence, exceeds seven in the aggregate, the excess shall be deducted from the annual leave allowance
of the officer for the current leave year and, if that allowance has been exhausted, from the annual leave
allowance of the next succeeding year.

also,

Uncertified sick absence
9. It must be emphasised that the arrangement under which an officer may be granted leave for one
or two days without medical certificate, within a limit of seven days in the aggregate in any period of
twelve months, is not to be regarded as a means of supplementing annual leave. There is reason to think
that a misapprehension on that point has existed. Any case where the facts appear to show that an officer
is resorting to single or two-day absences on that basis will be vigorously pursued.
10. In any case where there appears to be unduly frequent resort to sick absences without medical
certificate, special note will be taken of the days of the week and dates in a month on which such
absences occur and appropriate action will be taken. Where the absences continue to give ground for
suspicion in this respect, special domiciliary visits by a medical officer will be considered and arranged if
considered necessary.

P. Breathnach

Arnold Layne wrote: »

... How has Public Sector employee taken a paycut if they have to pay more into their own pension? ...

They get less money than they used to, and the pension package is the same as it was before. That amounts to a pay cut.

tallaght01

Is only direct cash into your hand "pay".

What about payment in kind? How come we're taxed on non cash payments?

From what I can see as an outsider:

*public sector have all taken paycuts, regardless of how efficient they are.

* private sector have only taken paycuts if they're not efficient enough to maintain profitability.

*We need paycuts across the board to A) decrease expenditure and bring costs down.

* The public sector will, rightly, be taking a cut in the net budget, despite some union posturing.

* The private sector would rather the most vulnerable in society on the social welfare take a cut to drive prices down and to decrease expenditure.

* The private sector who work in any profitable sector will play no part in the above.

Just wanted to get all that straight, as no one in oz believes me lol.

aftermn

Folks

We are being used

The details of this survey are not published.

I.E. does this include maternity leave?

Divide and conquer is an old british device, happily used by our supposedly republican politicians to preserve their position.

AIB got a pay rise. I wonder why. Is it intended as an accelerant in the public v private war?

We are being side-tracked.

johnathan woss

Arnold Layne wrote: »

How has Public Sector employee taken a paycut if they have to pay more into their own pension?

You really need to realise ..... Public Sector employees will simply not receive the pensions that they have paid into.

The money will simply not be there. Unless there's hyperinflation so it's worthless anyway.

So the levy is a PAYCUT.

Also, the contributions that they HAVE to make are also a defacto paycut.

mikemac

tallaght01 wrote: »

* private sector have only taken paycuts if they're not efficient enough to maintain profitability.

* The private sector who work in any profitable sector will play no part in the above.

There are efficent and profitable companies still making pay cuts and changing terms and conditions for their staff

I've never heard "never let a good recession go to waste" but I've read it here a few times

jimmmy

PJW wrote: »

....twice as sick as Private Sector!
The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee.

I think everyone has relations / friends in the public sector who "swing the lead", will stay at home if they have a bit of a sniffle, a bit of a bachache or a sore head. Another public servant on this very board some time ago justified her taking sick days when her child was sick. She said what else was she to do ? Another took sick day to go to the dentist for a check up. Why not take a half day or a days holiday like the rest of us ? The figures support what many in the private sector suspect about the public sector. Imagine if "sickies were" reduced in the public sector to acceptable levels. HSE staff take 19 sickies a year. How many more operations could be carried out / how shorter waiting lists would be if this was reduced ? Not to mention the saving to our govt borrowings.

irish_bob

Matthew712 wrote: »

Because our government for the last 10 years has been more Boston than Berlin when it comes to control and care of its people.
Remember
Greed is good
The Strong survive
The meek will inherit the earth
Why contribute to social welfare? -- I'll never need it.
I don't need a pension -- I'm young-- I'll never age.
I make the wealth -- so it's mind
Sh-it
I made a Loss -- It should be shared
I sold my soul to the devil for bonuses
Now the bonuses are gone -- I want Jesus

hi vincent , browne that is