The Public Sector is sick

Warfi

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The above is one of the first things to stun me in a while.
There really is no question as to why we have such an appalling health service in this country, with stuff like the above.
I wonder what other boards this stretches into.
It seems every week there is another scandal or controversy in the PS, I've almost come to expect it at this stage.
No doubt there will be HSE people trying to defend the above.

How can this type of thing be tackled?
Perhaps Quinn Health Insurance could set up a publicly funded NGO to monitor this type of wasteful spending?

Seriously, get Michael O Leary in there, god knows how much money we can save by cleaning up the Health services and Education alone, we mightn't need to touch the Public Sector wages. Maybe this is the reform that Cowen was talking about.
Why was it allowed to go on the first place?

It is shocking to read things like that. Michael O'Leary would clean up the mess and no doubt about it, but what we'd end up with is a privatised government, giving us services we have to pay for* (we've started paying for water and waste!). No social welfare, no illness benefit, no maternity leave, no free education*, no free health* (yes I know about the waiting lists...we're turning into America with our private health insurance!) no nothing. Any money this privatised government gets would be plowed straight back into the rich men's pockets*.

There's no easy way to deal with the government and it's handling of issues. I've often thought about what it would be like to actually deal with the type of work the government deals with, and I can honestly say I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole!!


*On a side note: Just reading back over that, it looks like our government is already on the way to selling out to the highest bidder:(.

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

Michael O'Leary would clean up the mess and no doubt about it

Maybe the sooner the better someone like that starts, as the mess is growing by a staggering 500 million of borrowed money a week.;)

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

Maybe the sooner the better someone like that starts, as the mess is growing by a staggering 500 million of borrowed money a week.;)

Which pays people's wages and social welfare. The wheel has to keep turning somehow. If nobody has any money, there's no economy.

And if we've no money, we'll realise we don't need that nest of tables from Ikea. We'll spend our lives nurturing our environments and the people in them, instead of chasing after a human invention designed to keep our physical wants, needs and desires in check. Living hell, I tellsya!;)

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going off to put flowers in my hair and wander around town naked, as nature intended :pac:

Stark

Warfi wrote: »

And if we've no money, we'll realise we don't need that nest of tables from Ikea. We'll spend our lives nurturing our environments and the people in them, instead of chasing after a human invention designed to keep our physical wants, needs and desires in check. Living hell, I tellsya!;)

That or take to burgling old ladies in order to get money. Given human nature, I reckon I know which scenario is more likely.

Warfi

Stark wrote: »

That or take to burgling old ladies in order to get money. Given human nature, I reckon I know which scenario is more likely.

Old men get burgled too you know. Or are you saying that women are far better at managing their finances?

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

Which pays people's wages and social welfare. The wheel has to keep turning somehow. If nobody has any money, there's no economy.

There is a big difference between the current situation of borrowing 500 million + week and the government squandering it on public expenditure the way it does, and an economy / country where " nobody has any money ".;)

Now, back to the original posters point :

"The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee."

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

There is a big difference between the current situation of borrowing 500 million + week and the government squandering it on public expenditure the way it does, and an economy / country where " nobody has any money ".;)

Now, back to the original posters point :

"The average woman working in state departments was absent 14 days, while the average man was off for eight days, almost double the rate of absence in the private sector. By contrast the latest survey of absenteeism in the private sector shows an average rate of just six days per employee."

You're on the dole aren't you? What are you going to do if the government stop 'squandering' money on public expenditure?
Nothing wrong with being on the dole, everyone's entitled to it, but public expenditure encompasses social welfare. When there's talk about money being squandered, it usually means that money is being 'squandered' by paying people for the job they're doing.

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

You're on the dole aren't you?

No I most certainly am not. Not that its any of your business if I was.
Now please go for the ball, not the player.

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

No I most certainly am not. Not that its any of your business if I was.
Now please go for the ball, not the player.

It's your business if you think it's embarrassing to be on the dole. It's also your business if you thought I was going for the player and not the ball.

I notice you like to refer to the topic of the thread when it suits you, otherwise you're usually ranting against the public sector.

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

It's your business if you think it's embarrassing to be on the dole. It's also your business if you thought I was going for the player and not the ball..

I never said if it was embarassing or not to be on the dole. I am not on the dole and it has little to do with me, except some of the taxes I pay go to support those on welfare. I have also said on this board that social welfare inc the dole needs to be cut : it is unsustainable that our dole is nearly three times that in the UK for example. I do think you should discuss the matter in hand, rather than act like a child and ( wrongly ) accuse another poster of being on the dole.

Warfi wrote: »

I notice you like to refer to the topic of the thread when it suits you, otherwise you're usually ranting against the public sector.

I discuss the thread in question, not go accusing other posters of being on the dole, which you have.

97i9y3941

give jim is due he is correct about the dole,it is the most generious in europe,even in england you woundnt get that much benefits,the dole does go to some wasters who refuse to get a job who even during the good times stayed on it,not surprised about child benefit been cut,as for o leary,he would tell alot of them unions to go to f#ck and hire more workers..

there was a good letter in the irish independent yesterday about the retired teachers who have lovely pensions but yet went back to do sub work,which basically allowed them in a legal way to commit social welfare fraud..

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

I never said if it was embarassing or not to be on the dole. I am not on the dole and it has little to do with me, except some of the taxes I pay go to support those on welfare. I have also said on this board that social welfare inc the dole needs to be cut : it is unsustainable that our dole is nearly three times that in the UK for example. I do think you should discuss the matter in hand, rather than act like a child and ( wrongly ) accuse another poster of being on the dole.



I discuss the thread in question, not go accusing other posters of being on the dole, which you have.

No you don't....you rant about the public sector.

It's a bit late to pretend that you're a mature debater at this stage. I would happily debate with anyone about the public sector, as long as they're not blindly ranting against it.

I'd take a pay cut (if I had a job that is), but if I had to take it to cries of 'It's not fair/they're on sixty grand a year/they get six months holidays a year/they only work half days/I once saw a teacher spell a word incorrectly/public servants use the internet at work, shock horror/I saw a garda parking on a double yellow line or any other massaged 'evidence' argument well then I'm afraid I'd tell you to get stuffed.

Is there anyone here who would take a pay cut listening to that tripe day in day out?
Has anyone here who's quoted pay in the public sector actually gone and done a job in the public sector? How would you feel if you were getting paid average wages/didn't have a job, and read in the daily media how much more you're getting paid than the average joe in the private sector?

It really isn't rocket science...putting out guff that the public sector earns twenty five percent more than the private sector just raises hackles. All so the government can rally their foot soldiers in the 'fight' against the public sector.

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

How would you feel if you were getting paid average wages/didn't have a job, and read in the daily media how much more you're getting paid than the average joe in the private sector?

Two questions there, mixed up .

If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year, then I would accept and argue for a pay cut, considering it is 40% more than the EC public sector average ( Eurostat figures ) , and the country is borrowing 25 billion a year just to keep paying as it is. I would prefer lose 20% now than 60% in 2 or 3 years time.

If I "didn't have a job", I would still think it unsustainable my dole would be nearly three times what it would be across the border in N. Ireland.

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

Two questions there, mixed up .

If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year, then I would accept and argue for a pay cut, considering it is 40% more than the EC public sector average ( Eurostat figures ) , and the country is borrowing 25 billion a year just to keep paying as it is. I would prefer lose 20% now than 60% in 2 or 3 years time.

If I "didn't have a job", I would still think it unsustainable my dole would be nearly three times what it would be across the border in N. Ireland.

So you've never worked in the public sector? Yet you know you would be getting 50,000 a year if you did? Once again, out with the massaged statistics to suit your argument. You didn't answer the question of how you would feel if you actually worked in the public sector and listened to that tripe day in day out. I'm asking you now, with that in mind, would you take a pay cut?

By the way, I'm not on the dole if "didn't have a job" was aimed at me. Also, I don't have a job due to cutbacks in the public sector. Don't go around demanding cutbacks, and then look down on people who might have to get the dole to survive in an economy where the prices of everything are through the roof

P. Breathnach

Warfi wrote: »

... I'd take a pay cut (if I had a job that is), but if I had to take it to cries of 'It's not fair/they're on sixty grand a year/they get six months holidays a year/they only work half days/I once saw a teacher spell a word incorrectly/public servants use the internet at work, shock horror/I saw a garda parking on a double yellow line or any other massaged 'evidence' argument well then I'm afraid I'd tell you to get stuffed.

Is there anyone here who would take a pay cut listening to that tripe day in day out?...

You have put your finger on a real problem. There is a cohort out there who attack everything about the public service and the people who work in it. That provokes a defensive reaction from public servants and their allies. Then people dig in and conduct trench warfare.

If there were a method for measuring the nastiness factor in posts, many of those which discuss the public sector would score very high on such an index. Nastiness tends to distort discussion.

Warfi

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have put your finger on a real problem. There is a cohort out there who attack everything about the public service and the people who work in it. That provokes a defensive reaction from public servants and their allies. Then people dig in and conduct trench warfare.

If there were a method for measuring the nastiness factor in posts, many of those which discuss the public sector would score very high on such an index. Nastiness tends to distort discussion.

It doesn't seem to matter that there are actually people in all walks of life in serious trouble with mortgages and other payments. Never fear though.....our friendly statistics will cover over the cracks of a family falling apart due to insane financial pressure :rolleyes:

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

So you've never worked in the public sector?

I have never worked in the public sector,nor did I ever claim to.

Warfi wrote: »

Yet you know you would be getting 50,000 a year if you did?

No, I said "If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year...."

Warfi wrote: »

Once again, out with the massaged statistics to suit your argument. You didn't answer the question of how you would feel if you actually worked in the public sector and listened to that tripe day in day out. I'm asking you now, with that in mind, would you take a pay cut?

Certainly. Like some public sectors eg the half a dozen in the 2 page article in the Indo a few weeks ago - I would advocate / welcome pay cuts, as current public sector pay is unsustainable, and very damaging to our countries finances. The "tripe" I hear comes from the people who think Irish public sector wages should remain the highest in the known world.

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

I have never worked in the public sector,nor did I ever claim to.



No, I said "If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year...."



Certainly. Like some public sectors eg the half a dozen in the 2 page article in the Indo a few weeks ago - I would advocate / welcome pay cuts, as current public sector pay is unsustainable, and very damaging to our countries finances. The "tripe" I hear comes from the people who think Irish public sector wages should remain the highest in the known world.

You've never worked in the public sector, yet you know you would get 50,000 a year. That's all I can see.

You're hearing different tripe to me. What do people who 'think Irish public sector wages should remain the highest in the known world' actually say? Do they use those exact words?

Or maybe they might say 'I can't meet my mortgage payments and can't afford a pay cut?' I wouldn't call that tripe. And personally I think that's what anyone facing a pay cut would say, private or public.

ardmacha

There is substantial variation in sickness etc in the different parts of the public sector. This variation arises not because of unions or lazy workers but primarily because of lame management in many parts of the PS. This management has its origin in the board of the PS, i.e. the government, which as posters here never tire of reminding us is elected mainly by people in the private sector.

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

You've never worked in the public sector, yet you know you would get 50,000 a year. That's all I can see.

That says more about your ability to see than it says about me. As pointed out to you already, I wrote " "If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year....". Not an unreasonable statement for me to make, given you asked me ( in your previous post of 13.05 pm ) how would I feel if I was a public servant "getting paid average wages"

Warfi wrote: »

You're hearing different tripe to me. What do people who 'think Irish public sector wages should remain the highest in the known world' actually say? Do they use those exact words? .

Words to that effect. See the two page article in the Indo a few Saturdays ago for quotes from some public sector workers about Irish pay.

Warfi wrote: »

Or maybe they might say 'I can't meet my mortgage payments and can't afford a pay cut?' I wouldn't call that tripe. And personally I think that's what anyone facing a pay cut would say, private or public.

Mortgage payments / interest rates are historically low, and no I have not heard anyone from the public sector say " 'I can't meet my mortgage payments ". There was the famous teacher on the Joe Duffy show about six months ago, who caused much hilarity at the time when she whinged about the lot of the public servant - she was finding it difficult ( she said ) keeping up the payments on her holiday home in Croatia.

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

That says more about your ability to see than it says about me. As pointed out to you already, I wrote " "If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year....". Not an unreasonable statement for me to make, given you asked me ( in your previous post of 13.05 pm ) how would I feel if I was a public servant "getting paid average wages"





Words to that effect. See the two page article in the Indo a few Saturdays ago for quotes from some public sector workers about Irish pay.



Mortgage payments / interest rates are historically low, and no I have not heard anyone from the public sector say " 'I can't meet my mortgage payments ". There was the famous teacher on the Joe Duffy show about six months ago, who caused much hilarity at the time when she whinged about the lot of the public servant - she was finding it difficult ( she said ) keeping up the payments on her holiday home in Croatia.

It still doesn't change the fact that you are going around saying that public sector workers get 50,000 a year.

And oh to see that famous Croatia quote that's trotted out at every opportunity.

Words to that effect? I asked what exact words would they use?

On a side note, I'm surprised you've made time to speak to anyone in the public sector, given your obvious dislike of them. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that conversation.

MaceFace

jimmmy wrote: »

That says more about your ability to see than it says about me. As pointed out to you already, I wrote " "If I was a public sector worker getting average p.s. wages of the 50,000 a year....". Not an unreasonable statement for me to make, given you asked me ( in your previous post of 13.05 pm ) how would I feel if I was a public servant "getting paid average wages"





Words to that effect. See the two page article in the Indo a few Saturdays ago for quotes from some public sector workers about Irish pay.



Mortgage payments / interest rates are historically low, and no I have not heard anyone from the public sector say " 'I can't meet my mortgage payments ". There was the famous teacher on the Joe Duffy show about six months ago, who caused much hilarity at the time when she whinged about the lot of the public servant - she was finding it difficult ( she said ) keeping up the payments on her holiday home in Croatia.

I was speaking to an ex-teacher a while back who has a holiday home in Spain. He goes there every so often to play golf.
I wonder how many Spanish teachers have holiday homes in Ireland?

nice_guy80

is it his fault he was able to save his money well and invest it in a holiday home? fair play to him

Warfi

MaceFace wrote: »

I was speaking to an ex-teacher a while back who has a holiday home in Spain. He goes there every so often to play golf.
I wonder how many Spanish teachers have holiday homes in Ireland?

So an ex teacher? Has probably worked all his life?
and you're begrudging him a holiday home?
Does nobody in the private sector have holiday homes?

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

It still doesn't change the fact that you are going around saying that public sector workers get 50,000 a year.

I never said ALL public sector workers get fifty grand a year. I merely quote the statistic provided by the Central Statistics office, for average public sector pay. www.cso.ie

Warfi wrote: »

On a side note, I'm surprised you've made time to speak to anyone in the public sector, given your obvious dislike of them. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that conversation.

Be surprised if you like. Most of them are fine people and fine workers.

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

I never said ALL public sector workers get fifty grand a year. I merely quote the statistic provided by the Central Statistics office, for average public sector pay. www.cso.ie



Be surprised if you like. Most of them are fine people and fine workers.

I'm glad to see that you know that ALL public sector workers don't get paid 50,000 a year. That's all I wanted to see.

Also, thank you for the compliment

jimmmy

Warfi wrote: »

Does nobody in the private sector have holiday homes?

Ask any auctioneer who has years of experience in selling holiday homes what group is out of proportion among those who purchase holiday homes

Warfi

jimmmy wrote: »

Ask any auctioneer who has years of experience in selling holiday homes what group is out of proportion among those who purchase holiday homes

I dunno....he/she'd probably say people who've worked to earn their money?

jimmmy

Some auctioneers have specialised in selling holiday homes. Find one sometime, and ask him / her to give you an honest, off the record assessment of their opinion who buys most holiday homes, in proportion to their numbers : private or public sector. Do not ask me, ask them.

Stark

Not "poorly paid" people anyway.