The Public Sector is sick

P. Breathnach · 29-10-2009 3:33pm

MaceFace wrote: »

I was speaking to an ex-teacher a while back who has a holiday home in Spain. He goes there every so often to play golf.
I wonder how many Spanish teachers have holiday homes in Ireland?

You want anecdotes? I have a friend who made money as a property developer. He has a holiday home in Spain. He goes there every so often to play golf.

Single instances like that prove nothing useful.

P. Breathnach · 29-10-2009 3:36pm

jimmmy wrote: »

I never said ALL public sector workers get fifty grand a year. I merely quote the statistic provided by the Central Statistics office, for average public sector pay. www.cso.ie

Is there any reason why you don't link the relevant pages? It seems to be apart of a pattern of failing to give useful citations.

marmalade3 · 29-10-2009 3:37pm

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 3:45pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is there any reason why you don't link the relevant pages? It seems to be apart of a pattern of failing to give useful citations.

It was done, many times, in different threads. It has even been repeated in the media many times - even as I am typing this, I hear them on RTE radio one talking about it and it was mentioned.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 3:58pm

marmalade3 wrote: »

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

Interesting. I can honestly say I had heard that from other auctioneers as well, that it was teachers, Gardai, college lecturers, a librarian, hospital workers, civil servants and other public servants who were the bulk of purchasers, definitely way out of proportion to their percentage of the overall labour force.

Riskymove · 29-10-2009 4:04pm

jimmmy wrote: »

It was done, many times, in different threads.

the figure jimmmy loves so much is now €973

its not exactly the average wage for the public service but its the nearest we have

It does however, include everything, i.e. all sorts of overtime and allowances which many parts of the public sector dont get etc

I read through the most recent publication and found a few interesting things

1. the data does not include the Health sector but does not say why

2. TDs have decided to include their data in a special category called "Others in the Public Sector" which shows the lowest average wages of just €656! thats because the others include student gardai and temporary CSO field staff! a sly move

3. there are a number of areas that earn on average above this €973; garda, prison officers, second and third level education

4. There are a number of areas that earn on average, below this €973 figure; civil service, primary education , local authorities

5. there are over 3,000 less public servants than same time last year

Shea O'Meara · 29-10-2009 4:09pm

I was a Public Servant for a couple of years. Job security, great. Pension, decent. Wages, dire. The lowest paid job I've had in that line of work. I quit because of it. I do not own any property abroad. If you reach the higher ranks the money improves, but the vast majority of front line workers are paid poorly. I know this because we all worked on scales based on position and time served. You may recall the wage agreement where raises were put in line with inflation, I got a euro a week extra when the dust settled.

P. Breathnach · 29-10-2009 4:28pm

jimmmy wrote: »

It was done, many times, in different threads...

Not by you. Your standard reference is www.cso.ie. You do not provide relevant links.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 4:33pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not by you. Your standard reference is www.cso.ie. You do not provide relevant links.

Yes I did, in the thread on average public sector pay, a long long time ago. So long ago, the cso said then it was 966 a week. I believe its ninehundred and seventy something now

ardmacha · 29-10-2009 4:39pm

I'm an ex estate agent's office worker

Estate agents did more to wreck the country than any public service worker below the Financial Regulator.

I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

it doesn't surprise me that teachers might go for holiday homes, as they have longer holidays than other people. What does this prove exactly? One teacher I know bought a modest property in France, which was much cheaper than any sort of property in Ireland so having it is not proof of great wealth.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 4:45pm

ardmacha wrote: »

it doesn't surprise me that teachers might go for holiday homes, as they have longer holidays than other people. What does this prove exactly? One teacher I know bought a modest property in France, which was much cheaper than any sort of property in Ireland so having it is not proof of great wealth.

"One teacher" does not prove anything, look at the disposable income of the majority ...

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 4:46pm

marmalade3 wrote: »

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

Do many continental public servants / teachers buy holiday homes I wonder ? I doubt it.

Riskymove · 29-10-2009 4:53pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Do many continental public servants / teachers buy holiday homes I wonder ? I doubt it.

why would they need to? they have the climate.....

MaceFace · 29-10-2009 4:55pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Some auctioneers have specialised in selling holiday homes. Find one sometime, and ask him / her to give you an honest, off the record assessment of their opinion who buys most holiday homes, in proportion to their numbers : private or public sector. Do not ask me, ask them.

I find it amazing that an ex-teacher can afford a holiday home and jet off to this home to play golf in their retirement.

Seriously, what kind of country do we live in when someone has had a job where they can not be fired, their official hours are 8.30-3.30 for about 180 days a year can live this lifestyle? (yes, I know they put in extra hours for course planning)

The ONLY people who should be doing this are the rich and a teacher should never be rich (at least not from their salary).

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 4:57pm

Riskymove wrote: »

why would they need to? they have the climate.....

Say those from the northern part of the continent ? They do not have the climate ? Besides, go to any of the seaside resorts in Ireland + ask any auctioneer who bought a lot of the property / holiday homes there

P. Breathnach · 29-10-2009 5:07pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Do many continental public servants / teachers buy holiday homes I wonder ? I doubt it.

I was in France recently, visiting friends. Some of those friends work (or, before their retirement, used to work) in the French public service. Quite a few of them own holiday homes in France -- so many that it is considered unremarkable.

[Anecdotal evidence, of course.]

MrMicra · 29-10-2009 5:11pm

MaceFace wrote: »

Seriously, what kind of country do we live in when someone has had a job where they can not be fired, their official hours are 8.30-3.30 for about 180 days a year can live this lifestyle?

A rich country and one with what now in a depression looks like a rather cosseted public sector.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 5:11pm

marmalade3 wrote: »

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

The rest of the holiday homes there were purchased by Mr. Breathnachs friends, even though the average public sector pay in the EC is 40% less than average Irish public sector pay ( Eurostat figures ).;)

P. Breathnach · 29-10-2009 5:22pm

jimmmy wrote: »

The rest of the holiday homes there were purchased by Mr. Breathnachs friends, even though the average public sector pay in the EC is 40% less than average Irish public sector pay ( Eurostat figures ).;)

Cut out the cheap shots.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 5:44pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Quite a few of them own holiday homes in France -- so many that it is considered unremarkable.

The problem is what may seem remarkable to some people is remarkable to others.

14 days "sickies" a year is unremarkable to some people - to others its remarkable.

Average public sector pay of 50k is unremarkable to some people - to others its remarkable.

735 hours work a year is is unremarkable to some people ( Irish teachers ) - to others ( eg teachers in UK, who work close to 1300 hours ) its remarkable.
A gold plated pension + 18 months tax free lump sum is unremarkable to some people - to others its remarkable.

ardmacha · 29-10-2009 5:47pm

"One teacher" does not prove anything,

true enough, Jimmmy, hopefully you will stop citing individual examples too. But somehow I doubt it.

A teacher might jointly inherit a house in 2005 and sell it and buy a place in the Med, this would say nothing about the proper level of PS salary.

jimmmy · 29-10-2009 6:01pm

marmalade3 wrote: »

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

All the Guards, teachers, public servants cannot all "have jointly inherited a house in 2005" ?

Warfi · 29-10-2009 6:36pm

marmalade3 wrote: »

Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got.

Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers.

Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague.

So you didn't sell any properties to public sector workers because you found it disgusting that they earned so much?

Or did you sell properties to publics sector workers and get a big fat commission to boot? (which you're entitled to by the way, I don't work in the private sector so I'm not jealous of what other people earn).

All I'm pointing out is you were doing your job, just like public sector workers do their jobs. You were earning your wage, and you spent it how you felt you should spend it, just like public sector workers spend their money. The only difference between you and a public sector worker is you don't have to account for the money you spent, or you don't have to feel guilty for going on holidays. Count your lucky stars the way you spend/spent your money isn't raked over in the media on a daily basis.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm away to scare off Kevin Myers who's currently rooting through my bin (....gets shotgun)

MrMicra · 29-10-2009 8:34pm

Warfi wrote: »

So you didn't sell any properties to public sector workers because you found it disgusting that they earned so much?

Or did you sell properties to publics sector workers and get a big fat commission to boot? (which you're entitled to by the way, I don't work in the private sector so I'm not jealous of what other people earn).

she said that she was a secretary in an estate agent's not an estate agent. I am not jealous of what you earn by the way I just can't afford to keep you. Or rather I'd rather let you go than reduce my own take home pay. If this seems abrasive read your own posting again.

Warfi · 29-10-2009 8:50pm

MrMicra wrote: »

she said that she was a secretary in an estate agent's not an estate agent. I am not jealous of what you earn by the way I just can't afford to keep you. Or rather I'd rather let you go than reduce my own take home pay. If this seems abrasive read your own posting again.

If you were being questioned how you spent your money, would you not get a tad upset? Seeing as you've worked very hard for it? Hence my questions in the post. Questioning how people spend their hard earned money is so far below the belt as to be not believed.

I have to say that at least you're being honest, I wouldn't think you're being abrasive. If I was in your position, I would rather keep my job than pay for someone else's too. It's basic human nature to hold onto what you have. The media/public sector bashing threads seem to have taken on a holier than thou attitude however. It seems that everyone in media land is willing to take a pay cut without fighting it. Which goes against anything I know about human nature.

Dannyboy83 · 30-10-2009 2:40am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

You have put your finger on a real problem. There is a cohort out there who attack everything about the public service and the people who work in it. That provokes a defensive reaction from public servants and their allies. Then people dig in and conduct trench warfare.

If there were a method for measuring the nastiness factor in posts, many of those which discuss the public sector would score very high on such an index. Nastiness tends to distort discussion.

This is a fair comment.
On the other hand, many in the PS are equally guilty of it, which is why it arises. I don't think I've actually seen someone against PS reductions actually discuss the reasons why since the whole thing kicked off.

I've tried to discuss the issue with PS workers here in a sensible manner, and simply had things thrown at me like: You Private sectors workers were cleaning up during the boom earning 30,000 a month, You guys get massive X-mas bonuses, yadayadayada and various other untruths. This doesn't traumatize me personally, but it doesn't lend much support to their debate either.

Some of my family are in the PS so I have discussed the issue with them in a sensible manner.
I was of the opinion initially (some time ago) that PS workers workers shouldn't have pay cuts, just pay freezes and perhaps some pension reform, in the meantime we should do our best to reduce our deficit through eliminating wasteful spending from the start (there seems to be ample room for maneuver through badly needed reform according to one relative in Health)

At this stage however, I'm of the opinion that the PS will have to take pay cuts.
They refuse to discuss the issue at every turn. Every answer is an attack. (I do not include you in this btw as I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts and find them very informative and besides you are retired).

In summary:
You cannot perform delicate surgery to remove the gangrene on a patient who refuses to sit still. This leaves little choice other than to wildly amputate. This causes otherwise unnecessary trauma. Some of the gangerine may remain. There is little chance for reconstructive surgery in the future. You slice through vital nerves and arteries. But you know failure to act will ultimately be fatal. So you take the lesser of two evils.

Debating with PS workers (on this issue) on this forum is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork. This seems to be entirely reflective of reality with the unions.

Ultimately, all the measures are painful. To those who serve, and those who are served.
The problem is, their refusal to discuss means they are insisting on taking the most painful route. (And those who are served do not have a say in the matter regardless)

For any PS worker who read through that, just remember, most of you guys have the least to lose by opening up for discussion and the most to lose by refusing to discuss. Based on the stats, the lower paid workers should be taken a proportionately smaller reduction, if any at all.
It is the people on top who are manipulating you guys who have the most to lose.
The admirals never take the bullets, just the foot soldiers.

First we collectively bailed out the banksters, builders etc.
Now you are going to privately bail out the union bosses, the overpaid consulants and the dead weight etc.
Is this really the best option you guys have available? I don't think so.
Personally, that would infuriate me far more.

Remember, you are dealing with Fianna Fail, so you are guaranteed an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

lily lou · 30-10-2009 3:24am

It has to be rememembered that to get an average you add everyones wages/ sick leave together and then divide by the amount of people therefore if you take into account people on long term sick leave you have a much higher "average" sick leave than if you were to take the most frequent amount of sick leave taken by public servants and the same with wages, the top of my pay scale is around €38k and after 10 years in my job I am earning around €32500 the paycut they're talking about is going to bring my pay down below €30k, now if I was on the "average pay" I'd happily take a pay cut, but I'm never going to get anywhere near the €50k mark.

irish_bob · 30-10-2009 10:59am

lily lou wrote: »

It has to be rememembered that to get an average you add everyones wages/ sick leave together and then divide by the amount of people therefore if you take into account people on long term sick leave you have a much higher "average" sick leave than if you were to take the most frequent amount of sick leave taken by public servants and the same with wages, the top of my pay scale is around €38k and after 10 years in my job I am earning around €32500 the paycut they're talking about is going to bring my pay down below €30k, now if I was on the "average pay" I'd happily take a pay cut, but I'm never going to get anywhere near the €50k mark.

most likely you would be earning far less in the private sector , a clerical officer for example cannot realistically expect to ever earn 50 k so its pointless to bring such a figure into the debate

ps , im not saying you personally are a clerical officer

P. Breathnach · 30-10-2009 11:21am

Dannyboy83, thank you for your thoughtful response.

I should make it clear that I think there is nastiness on both sides of this debate, so I am not accusing one side more than the other. I will add that there is also a great deal of ignorance on both sides, in many cases with an apparent unwillingness to learn.

Personally, I'm in a different position from most people. I have disclosed that I am a public service pensioner, and one or two people have used that as a basis for presuming that I oppose public service pay reduction -- yet I have never said that I do, and I have advocated a new round of benchmarking as a good way to proceed. That is tantamount to saying that I accept that pay cuts are on the agenda, and my concern is that they be decided in the fairest way possible.

Having spent most (not all) of my career in the public service, and also because of strong family associations, I can say that I have a public service mindset. I don't think that is either good or bad: it's just they way I am, an example of individual difference. The builder I employed this summer comes from a family with a tradition of building, and he has a building mindset -- good thing, too, as I was happy with his work. So when the public service is attacked in an intemperate way, I feel offended: it is an attack on something that I consider to be part of myself. I have no problem with considered criticism, but there seems to be a shortage of that.

On the other side, I think some who purport to defend the interests of public servants are also off the mark. Most public servants have reasonable-to-high pay, fairly good job security, and a very good pension scheme (I said most; there are some exceptions). It is inaccurate to suggest otherwise, and it gets right up the nose of many people.

On many questions, those who occupy the middle ground are often closest to being right. Large numbers of protagonists here will not accept the possibility of there being a middle ground.

Yet here I stand, and there are not many people nearby.

jimmmy · 30-10-2009 12:00pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I will add that there is also a great deal of ignorance on both sides.

I would not accept that. Certainly from the private sector perspective, most people have family, friends, sports colleagues, old school classmates, neighbours etc who are in the public service. Certainly in smaller cities / towns / communities, people know well what goes on. Its been well talked about in many different circles. Certainly reporting in the media and statistics on public sector pay just confirms what people already know.
eg another poster wrote : "Hi - I'm an ex estate agent's office worker - just got laid off there a couple of weeks ago, 1 month's pay and a sad wave goodbye was all I got. Re your discussion on private sector vs. public sector people who bought holiday homes abroad during "the boom" - I have to inform you public sector people win hands down - mostly teachers married to other teachers. Mostly purchased in Spain/Canaries/Portugal. Some in Bulgaria and Prague."

Not everyone in the public sector is well paid but most people know the score, as regards average pay, hours worked, sickies, pension, stress levels, job security etc.

We all know Gaurds with multiple buy to let properties, but if you have any contacts in different circles at all you will know which group in society is best off, out of proportion to their numbers. eg in a marina I know, most of the cruisers are owned by people paid by the government one way or another eg hospital consultants, college lecturers, Gardai, Fas worker etc.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

On many questions, those who occupy the middle ground are often closest to being right. Large numbers of protagonists here will not accept the possibility of there being a middle ground.

Its difficult for anyone to justify our public service being the highest paid in the known world, giving the country is having to borrow so much to ensure that is currently the case. Benchmarking could take a year or two, given the different interest groups etc + their reluctance to accept a meaningful pay cut, by which time we will be a further 30 or 50 billion in debt. If looking for a middle ground, would you think that should be say a 20% cut in public sector wages ( seeing as they are 40% above the EC average ( source : Eurostat )?

The Public Sector is sick

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