The Public Sector is sick

P. Breathnach

murphaph wrote: »

everyone and their dog dreads going to the motor tax office.

Really?

It's a while since I've been there, because the online system works so well.

givyjoe81

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really?

It's a while since I've been there, because the online system works so well.

Yes, but what if do need to go there?! There are still hundreds of people making the trip every week are there not?

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Really?

It's a while since I've been there, because the online system works so well.

How many staff were let go because of the manpower saving brought in by the new online system? Just as a matter of interest. Bearing in mind Aer Lingus have been shedding jobs due to such innovations for a good few years now.

The system is fine. It's a simple online system that should have been brought in long before it was of course.

P. Breathnach

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Yes, but what if do need to go there?! There are still hundreds of people making the trip every week are there not?

I just said that I haven't been there for a while, so there is little point in asking me.

murphaph wrote: »

How many staff were let go because of the manpower saving brought in by the new online system? Just as a matter of interest.

I have no idea. Probably none. I suspect that they were given different work to do, because the local authorities have a wide range of functions, and there are always some areas under pressure.

The system is fine. It's a simple online system that should have been brought in long before it was of course.

There's no pleasing some people.

murphaph

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no idea. Probably none. I suspect that they were given different work to do, because the local authorities have a wide range of functions, and there are always some areas under pressure.

You mean they made up jobs for them. The whole government could be put online and not one civil servant would get the bullet and everyone knows it.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

You mean they made up jobs for them. The whole government could be put online and not one civil servant would get the bullet and everyone knows it.

IT makes it possible to provide better quality services.

IT does not reduce to zero, the number of people involved in running a service. You still need people to manage the IT systems. Online Internet systems can reduce the need for expensive data-entry staff, who are usually outsourced to the private sector.

In the case of Revenue, it's freed up staff for audit & compliance work.

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

IT makes it possible to provide better quality services.

IT does not reduce to zero, the number of people involved in running a service. You still need people to manage the IT systems. Online Internet systems can reduce the need for expensive data-entry staff, who are usually outsourced to the private sector.

In the case of Revenue, it's freed up staff for audit & compliance work.

I'm not stupid. I wasn't attempting to claim that IT could reduce staff numbers to zero and I think you know that.

My point was that no matter how many jobs are replaced with computerisation and automation you won't see any actual cost savings because the necessary redundancies aren't made. Cost savings only come in this regard through attrition (read:retirement).

Compare this to the private sector Aer Lingus: Automation of functions and online systems have directly led to a cull of hundreds of staff and a thousand more are set to go. This sort of cost saving has been required to keep Aer Lingus from going the way of Sabena and Alitalia. Ancient work practices blown out of the water, demarcation a thing of the past. This is what is needed to reform the Irish public sector quite frankly and if a one-time dinosaur like Aer Lingus can change its spots through strong management (leadership) then so could the PS if our government had the balls to do it.

TCP/IP_King

murphaph wrote: »

everyone and their dog dreads going to the motor tax office.

It's been a good 2 years since I had to go to a motor tax office, and then I wasn't looking forward to the queue. When I arrived there was nobody there, got seen to promptly.

NewDubliner

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Iv never been paid extra for working Saturdays or evenings, why should you be?!

The longer the hours of operation where an office has to be kept open, secured, heated, lit and staffed, the more it costs. If you want people to work longer hours, you have to pay them. Simple as.

Most motor tax transactions don't need a face-to-face meeting.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Rant?! Show me the link to the awards the motor tax office has won for 'award winning service'.

Irish Net Visionary Award (e-Government) . Also mentioned here in Silicon republic also Clare Motor Tax Office wins two National 'Excellence' Awards

givyjoe81

NewDubliner wrote: »

The longer the hours of operation where an office has to be kept open, secured, heated, lit and staffed, the more it costs. If you want people to work longer hours, you have to pay them. Simple as.

Most motor tax transactions don't need a face-to-face meeting.


Irish Net Visionary Award (e-Government) . Also mentioned here in Silicon republic also Clare Motor Tax Office wins two National 'Excellence' Awards

God dang it i meant to ask for one that wasn't awarded in effect, to an external web designer, my mistake again! I never mentioned anything about anyone working longer hours. Merely the standard 40 hours with the same number of staff being spread over the longer opening hours. Which would be instead of forcing the public to go in greater numbers between the very short opening hours. Heating and light fair enough, but marginal.

ardmacha

My point was that no matter how many jobs are replaced with computerisation and automation you won't see any actual cost savings because the necessary redundancies aren't made. Cost savings only come in this regard through attrition

You are being disingenuous here. The savings are made by not hiring other people who would be needed for the jobs that people are redirected to. Any employer will redirect staff rather than laying off some and then hiring others.

It seems to me that the Motor Tax online and the like of the Revenue Online are pretty positive developments, which compare favourably with many private sector offerings. If it is not prejudice that is driving these comments than there is much more to criticise in the other sections that have not introduced IT in this way.

seangal

a lot of crap written here
i am a public sector worker for last 9 year and i have take all of 3 sick day in that time that were not certified
it is is quite simple YOU SHOULD NOT GET PAID FOR THE FIRST DAY YOU ARE SICK FROM WORK and for second day you need a cert
End of debate

akaredtop

Jeez, I knew ye had lots of Perks, but Sex days? The gravy train has to stop!

Riskymove

seangal wrote: »

i have take all of 3 sex day

shhhhhhhhhhhhh


they dont seem to know about our mandatory sex days yet

Stark

Can you imagine this person phoning/e-mailing their boss. "Sorry, can't come to work, sex today".

97i9y3941

murphaph wrote: »

How many staff were let go because of the manpower saving brought in by the new online system? Just as a matter of interest./QUOTE]

i doubt if any people got let go,working for gov is a win win situation,great pension,lovely benefits for doing the smallest bit of work,instance the sunday independent published all the benefits people get whilst working,instance you get 20 euros for yourself for opening up goverment building,it also showed there was feck all support from the private sector in the march despite the media saying there was solidarity,probably because the private know they will get taxed to death to make up the wages...

Riskymove

Fred83 wrote: »

instance the sunday independent ..

obviously a well-balanced and fair article I imagine:pac:

97i9y3941

Civil Service 'privilege day' perks escape axe

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/civil-service-privilege-day-perks-escape-axe-1937137.html

Swingeing cuts for public servants won't target 'benefits gravy train'

By MAEVE SHEEHAN
Sunday November 08 2009

CIVIL SERVANTS may be gearing up for swingeing cutbacks in the 2009 Budget but their expensive perks such as extra days off may yet escape the axe.

The Department of Finance said it has not asked civil servants to forego their two privilege days which are believed to cost taxpayers up to €12m a year. The privilege days were originally intended as travel days to allow civil servants from rural areas time to return to Dublin after bank holidays.

During the Celtic Tiger boom the privilege days had become synonymous with shopping days in the run up to Christmas and Easter.

They are not the only perks enjoyed by civil servants.

They also enjoy five days paid leave if they get married, in addition to their annual leave. Civil servants who adopt a baby are entitled to 20 weeks paid leave. If public holidays fall during the period they are off work, the civil servants can then claim them back on their return.

They also receive an allowance of €20.50 a week if their duties include carrying keys to official buildings -- to reflect the "responsibility" attached to the task. In addition, civil servants who are assigned to driving duties on a daily basis are paid an allowance of €30 a week, or €15 a week if their driving services are only occasionally required.

During talks on the allowances, staff negotiators claimed that driving official vehicles had become a "more stressful and demanding duty, especially because of the congested traffic conditions in the Dublin area", according to a circular on the agreement.

They also claimed that, in several cases, "departments had been unable to find services officers willing to carry out this duty because of these circumstances".

There are also perks for civilian drivers for Ministers of State. The drivers usually work on a week-on week-off basis, getting paid for both their on and off weeks. If they have to work on their "off" week -- to fill in for a sick colleague for example -- they get paid for two weeks' work, in addition to their usual salary.

Civil servants are also entitled to paid leave to train with voluntary search and rescue organisations.

While private sector workers generally have to volunteer their services, civil servants get up to 10 days off, with pay, to train with the Royal Coast Guard, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution or Irish Water Safety.

A request for five days' paid leave for civil servants who looked after children from Chernobyl and other troubled areas was rejected in 2002.

Civil service unions also lobbied unsuccessfully in 2006 to increase the 31 days of holidays senior civil servants are entitled to. The unions based their argument on the fact that a director service at Waterford County Council received 34 days' leave; a counterpart in South Tipperary got 36 and the post in Sligo came with 38 days plus two privilege days.

The request for more holidays was rejected on the grounds that the civil servants already had far better holidays than the private sector, where 80 per cent at principal officer salary level in the private sector received 29 days' leave or less.

Civil servants also receive generous benefits to cope with tragedies. They are entitled to take 10 days compassionate leave on the death of a parent, spouse or child, in an agreement negotiated in 2007.

Unions had lobbied to allow staff who suffered a bereavement while on sick leave to get the bereavement leave tagged on to the end of their sick leave. This, the union argued, would help the civil servants cope better with the process of bereavement.

The request was rejected: "Bereavement leave is granted only at the time of the bereavement and not at the end of, or instead of, sick leave," a circular noted.

Riskymove

Stark wrote: »

Can you imagine this person phoning/e-mailing their boss. "Sorry, can't come to work, sex today".

if there were "mandatory sex at work days" there would be a dramatic reduction in absenteism I'd say.....perhaps I should send that idea into the current talks

I could take a pay cut for such a perk

damo

Riskymove wrote: »

if there were "mandatory sex at work days" there would be a dramatic reduction in absenteism I'd say.....perhaps I should send that idea into the current talks

I could take a pay cut for such a perk

I can see it now, a day of protest called for the governments refusal to allow a condom allowance plus double pay for public sector workers mandatory sex days.

Riskymove

Fred83 wrote: »

'benefits gravy train'

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

The Department of Finance said it has not asked civil servants to forego their two privilege days which are believed to cost taxpayers up to €12m a year.

believed? by who?

how can it cost extra money

with shopping days in the run up to Christmas and Easter.

days? I know of a half-day for Christmas

there is no leave for "Easter shopping" FFS!!:rolleyes:

They also enjoy five days paid leave if they get married, in addition to their annual leave. Civil servants who adopt a baby are entitled to 20 weeks paid leave.

adoption leave was brought in to be of some equality with maternity leave

I dont really have a problem with the marriage leave (however there is a slight thing to say here insofar as its only 3 days for some grades i think)

They also receive an allowance of €20.50 a week if their duties include carrying keys to official buildings -- to reflect the "responsibility" attached to the task. In addition, civil servants who are assigned to driving duties on a daily basis are paid an allowance of €30 a week, or €15 a week if their driving services are only occasionally required.

this seem a bit petty alright but hardly a gravy train, I'd guess not too mnay get this anyway

They also claimed that, in several cases, "departments had been unable to find services officers willing to carry out this duty because of these circumstances".

not much a perk so

There are also perks for civilian drivers for Ministers of State. The drivers usually work on a week-on week-off basis, getting paid for both their on and off weeks. If they have to work on their "off" week -- to fill in for a sick colleague for example -- they get paid for two weeks' work, in addition to their usual salary.

ministerial expenses really not civil servants

Civil servants are also entitled to paid leave to train with voluntary search and rescue organisations.

While private sector workers generally have to volunteer their services, civil servants get up to 10 days off, with pay, to train with the Royal Coast Guard, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution or Irish Water Safety.

are we begrudging this concession to very important volunteer services?

Civil servants also receive generous benefits to cope with tragedies. They are entitled to take 10 days compassionate leave on the death of a parent, spouse or child, in an agreement negotiated in 2007.

god forbid we give someone a few days if they lose a child or spouse

perhaps the Indo would be happier if we just killed them off too in order to save some money

P. Breathnach

Riskymove wrote: »

if there were "mandatory sex at work days" there would be a dramatic reduction in absenteism I'd say.....perhaps I should send that idea into the current talks

I could take a pay cut for such a perk

Recalling some of the colleagues I worked with over the years, I can imagine that I would have called in sick on some sex days; other times I might have clocked up overtime, even though I was never in a job that qualified for overtime payment (I nearly called it a position, but we have some strange people reading here, quick to pounce on anything).

Riskymove

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Recalling some of the colleagues I worked with over the years,

thats what would be overlooked if such a thing existed alright

although with some of the posters around here, it would soon become "fact" that all Public servants had colleagues that looked like George Clooney or Angelina Jolie

Tipp Man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Recalling some of the colleagues I worked with over the years, I can imagine that I would have called in sick on some sex days; other times I might have clocked up overtime, even though I was never in a job that qualified for overtime payment (I nearly called it a position, but we have some strange people reading here, quick to pounce on anything).

Haha, cracked me up:)

P. Breathnach

Fred83 wrote: »

Civil Service 'privilege day' perks escape axe...

Aah, privilege days! An old fart reminisces:
Christmas Day and St. Stephen's Day are public holidays, and it is the custom for most people to take the privilege day on the 27th December. But the office where I worked did not formally close on that day, so it was necessary that somebody be in attendance. When I was young and single, I offered to work so that my colleagues could spend their time with wives and families (we're going back a few years: there were no husbands). I could clear some of my cases, and was available to answer the phone and meet with personal callers during the open-to-the-public hours (reception and telephone were not normally my responsibility, but you might be surprised to learn how versatile public servants can be). It was the quietest day's work I ever did: nobody phoned; nobody called in person. I sneaked off home ten minutes early, and it wasn't noticed.

Riskymove

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It was the quietest day's work I ever did: nobody phoned; nobody called in person. I sneaked off home ten minutes early, and it wasn't noticed.

this is also overlooked and if its a public office the same applies to the days between christmas and new years that offices are open...silent and empty

S.L.F

Fred83 wrote: »

If public holidays fall during the period they are off work, the civil servants can then claim them back on their return.

Good God that journalist really is scraping the end of the barrel isn't she.

Public servants are entitled to at least 21 days holidays (assuming they are full time) and are entitled to 11 bank holidays ie 32 days off.

NewDubliner

Riskymove wrote: »

obviously a well-balanced and fair article I imagine:pac:

Yes, she didn't mention that public servants don't have to pay to use the toilets in their offices.

dvpower

The Department of Finance said it has not asked civil servants to forego their two privilege days which are believed to cost taxpayers up to €12m a year. The privilege days were originally intended as travel days to allow civil servants from rural areas time to return to Dublin after bank holidays.

They should probably get rid of them at this stage in the game. CS unions should have negotiated this into standard leave a long time ago.

They also enjoy five days paid leave if they get married, in addition to their annual leave. Civil servants who adopt a baby are entitled to 20 weeks paid leave. If public holidays fall during the period they are off work, the civil servants can then claim them back on their return.

A few days leave on marraige is fairly standard for any good employer. As for the 20 weeks on adoption, how many people benefit from this?; not many, so lets focus on 'real' things.

They also receive an allowance of €20.50 a week if their duties include carrying keys to official buildings -- to reflect the "responsibility" attached to the task.

Seems reasonable to pay something for this. Perhaps a bit excessive. I presume that if there's a fire or break in, you are going to get called in. Does it also mean that you have to 'open the shop'?

In addition, civil servants who are assigned to driving duties on a daily basis are paid an allowance of €30 a week, or €15 a week if their driving services are only occasionally required.

Sounds a bit mad. If your job involves driving, this should be accounted for in the base salary.

There are also perks for civilian drivers for Ministers of State. The drivers usually work on a week-on week-off basis, getting paid for both their on and off weeks. If they have to work on their "off" week -- to fill in for a sick colleague for example -- they get paid for two weeks' work, in addition to their usual salary.

Its this kind of nonsence that gets the public sector a bad name.

Civil servants also receive generous benefits to cope with tragedies. They are entitled to take 10 days compassionate leave on the death of a parent, spouse or child, in an agreement negotiated in 2007.

Seems a bit high. I think 5 days is normal for most good private sector employers.

rebel10

This really pisses me off. I am working in the public sector for the last 5 years after workin my ass off in college for 6 years just so I could spend three years going to job interviews that would advertise as little as 4 hrs a wk. Finally got a job, now after 5 years will have to wait god knows how long to gain permanency in the job. Friend at work there 8 years and still no sign of permanency. I am earning 400 a week, live with my parents because I know i could be let go whenever. To all of you who think we have it easy just remember most of us younger public sector workers don't have the security of those in the job with decades, we have never seen the kind of money that many of my private sector friends have seen. I didn't piss n moan when I couldn't afford holidays, spa weekends, new cars and houses that I saw many of my peers enjoying for the last few years. In fact i never will, the way things are going. By the way I have never taken a sick day, believe it or not. If i'm sick, i'm sick, and just get on with it. Once this country recovers, which it will in time, everything will go back to the way it was, plenty money in certain sectors and not so much in others.