What is wrong with the LOI? {Mod Note #22}

cson · 23-10-2009 7:59pm #1

I don't wish to start a flame war or anything but I'm genuinely asking what is wrong with the LOI? The latest club near the brink appear to be Derry City, and with having the Cork City saga with Tom Caughlan overhang the league season it would appear there is something inherently wrong with the LOI, or at least its clubs. Now that may appear to a broad shot across the LOI bows but before this there has been the difficulties Shelbourne and Shamrock Rovers have encountered.

I have a very, very small understanding of the League so I could be just ignorant as to a problem that'd be very evident to ardent LOI followers. But why does it seem that LOI clubs are constantly finding themselves in difficulties? Is it paying players too much? (or not at all in some cases) Does the league suffer from the impacts of GAA/Rugby and the fact so many of the population support EPL sides? Are the lack of crowds to blame? Or is it the FAI themselves?

I'm genuinely interested as what's gone wrong with the league.

pablomakaveli · 23-10-2009 8:03pm

cson wrote: »

I don't wish to start a flame war or anything but I'm genuinely asking what is wrong with the LOI? The latest club near the brink appear to be Derry City, and with having the Cork City saga with Tom Caughlan overhang the league season it would appear there is something inherently wrong with the LOI, or at least its clubs. Now that may appear to a broad shot across the LOI bows but before this there has been the difficulties Shelbourne and Shamrock Rovers have encountered.

I have a very, very small understanding of the League so I could be just ignorant as to a problem that'd be very evident to ardent LOI followers. But why does it seem that LOI clubs are constantly finding themselves in difficulties? Is it paying players too much? (or not at all in some cases) Does the league suffer from the impacts of GAA/Rugby and the fact so many of the population support EPL sides? Are the lack of crowds to blame? Or is it the FAI themselves?

I'm genuinely interested as what's gone wrong with the league.

Long story short, it's a mixture of all these.

callaway92 · 23-10-2009 8:06pm

cmon...League of Ireland <<<<< English Premier League

cson · 23-10-2009 8:10pm

callaway92 wrote: »

cmon...League of Ireland <<<<< English Premier League

Right, first off I didn't start the thread to compare leagues because thats a ludicrous proposition and a quite ignorant one too tbqh.

I'm interested in why some clubs at the highest level of domestic football in this country continually find themselves in deep trouble?

whatawaster · 23-10-2009 8:11pm

it's gone beyond a farce at this stage.
The league needs to be disbanded and restarted.
It needs HEAVY regulation, and much stricter wage caps.
It's an embarassment at the moment, unfortunately

Doyler92 · 23-10-2009 8:22pm

Quality.

chopperbyrne · 23-10-2009 8:39pm

It's the catch 22 circle of "The league will only get better when attendances increase." and "I'll start attending when the league is better."

Basically, there is very little money in the LOI and the FAI don't care about it. If all the clubs disbanded, they would just set up an amateur league so that we can still have a national side.

Cork will probably not be punished at all for their faults this year and will be happily given a license next year. This then sends a message to all clubs that it's okay to ignore the finance rules that the FAI have set in place.

Basically though, the lack of money brings a lack of quality and the lack of quality brings a lack of money.

Quint · 23-10-2009 8:55pm

chopperbyrne wrote: »

It's the catch 22 circle of "The league will only get better when attendances increase." and "I'll start attending when the league is better."

Basically, there is very little money in the LOI and the FAI don't care about it. If all the clubs disbanded, they would just set up an amateur league so that we can still have a national side.

Cork will probably not be punished at all for their faults this year and will be happily given a license next year. This then sends a message to all clubs that it's okay to ignore the finance rules that the FAI have set in place.

Basically though, the lack of money brings a lack of quality and the lack of quality brings a lack of money.

That first sentence sums it up. Only problem is, when the quality goes up, the attendence doesn't go up enough! Shelbourne took a gamble at getting to the champions league group stages and it backfired. Thing is, shels were playing quality football for those few years, but the cynical premierleague fan still wouldn't attend. If it's not top 4 premiership quality, no interest! I don't think Ireland will ever have a decent league.

cson · 23-10-2009 9:18pm

Quint wrote: »

That first sentence sums it up. Only problem is, when the quality goes up, the attendence doesn't go up enough! Shelbourne took a gamble at getting to the champions league group stages and it backfired. Thing is, shels were playing quality football for those few years, but the cynical premierleague fan still wouldn't attend. If it's not top 4 premiership quality, no interest! I don't think Ireland will ever have a decent league.

That could be a huge catalyst for the domestic game. If an LOI team could somehow make the Champions League group stages it'd raise awareness hugely - you'd hope some of the extra bandwagoner's might stay on. Then again the amount of money that one club would get could end up with them being league kingpins for x amount of years.

Quint · 23-10-2009 9:22pm

cson wrote: »

That could be a huge catalyst for the domestic game. If an LOI team could somehow make the Champions League group stages it'd raise awareness hugely - you'd hope some of the extra bandwagoner's might stay on. Then again the amount of money that one club would get could end up with them being league kingpins for x amount of years.

Like Rosenberg in Norway. I thing Rovers will dominate the league for the coming years, but at least if they got to a group stage it would bring money in to the whole league. At the moment, as long as england exist, we have no chance.
At least not supporting an english team, I can support whoever they play in the world cup without any guilt!

_blank_ · 23-10-2009 10:25pm

The biggest single problem with the LoI is the way it is run.

The way it is run by

a. The FAI
b. Club owners/chairmen/boards
c. head-in-sand supporters (I am guilty of this myself)
d. the players
e. The gap between schoolboy football and the LoI
f. People simply not caring enough to go to games

The FAI

Quite simply, the FAI are refusing to acknowledge that problems exist. They constantly tell lies. Lies to the effect that they are making the match going fan become more and more cynical about their involvement in the running of the league. Before the FAI took over the running of the league, three or four years ago, these same problems were there too, but the FAI promised changes. They introduced a Licencing Agreement (clubs must adhere to certain rules to gain a "licence" to compete in the league), and it was great. The only problem is that they don't enforce it. They make up rules and punishments as they go along. Nobody trusts them. Shels were denied a Premier League Licence in 2007, and were effectively demoted to the First Division. No other club which has had the same money problems since then has suffered this fate. Drogheda for instance last season, looks like Cork City this season. Furthermore, in recent times the FAI have been giving "dig outs" to clubs to cover up the state of affairs, then coming out and basically saying everything is rosy in the garden.

I could go on on this point, there are far, far more problems in relation to the FAI, but they are the main ones.

Club owners/chairmen/boards

Everyone dreams of "The CL Group Stages", but the fact is that Irish players playing in the LoI aren't good enough to get to that stage. Club Chairmen throwing money at the "best" players, paying them unsustainable wages, sending their clubs to the wall. It's an impossible situation, plunging clubs into debt on the thin dream of going a couple of stages further in Europe. Clubs that have paid top dollar to the cream of the LoI talent have simply not done it to that level, and they don't look like doing it.

Chasing a dream that is seemingly impossible to attain, and chairman after chairman keeps doing it.

head-in-sand supporters (I am guilty of this myself)

When you say to a supporter of Club X that they are living an unsustainable pipe dream you are accused of jealousy and bitterness. I must hold my hands up and admit that I was guilty of that for a number of years. When the shít hit the fan at Shels I learned. But trying imparting that lesson to fans of Cork City and Bohs over the last couple of years and I was called every name under the sun on this MB. "Oh shut up, you're jealous and bitter". The same kind of thing I used to say to Rovers fans. The same thing Drogs fans said to us, and now Cork and Bohs fans are at the same thing. Has to be said, that some Cork supporters are finally realising that they are in trouble. Bohs not so much. But it will happen.

But we go back to the FAI point here. They have given dig outs on numerous occasions to paper over the cracks, and so the troubles disappear for a while, only to come back worse a couple of months later.

the players

Yep, the players take some blame. The wages they have demanded have crippled clubs.

The gap between schoolboy football and the LoI/the talent drain to the UK

These are linked

This is a big thing. The talent drain to England/Scotland. There is literally no link between LoI clubs and Schoolboy Clubs (apart from a few isolated cases, granted). Youngsters should be on a conveyer belt that goes Schoolboy --> Youth/U21 LoI --> Senior Team --> Abroad, but that whole middle part is not there (see Kevin Doyle as one of the only counter examples of this). This would accomplish two things.

1. More talent in the LoI would see a higher standard of football and may encourage crowds

2. Better players stay in the game. I reckon about 90% of people all know a talented fella who went over to England at sixteen or seventeen, and arrived home at twenty two having "not made it", then working in factories or whatever, not playing football. If more players had the "Kevin Doyle" experience, I think the clubs here would benefit from this, and so would the players, and ultimately, the national team.

People simply not caring enough to go to games

Hmm, I don't really want to to post this on this MB because I/we generally get called trolls for it, but it needs to be said.

Irish people, in the main, simply don't care enough. They come up with all types of excuses to not go to games. None of them really good enough.

The facilities
The standard
Can't just start supporting another team
Never went as a kid
etc.

In other countries with "smaller" leagues, people manage to take an interest in the local game AND in the big leagues in Spain and England and wherever.

pablomakaveli · 23-10-2009 10:42pm

Good post Des. Pretty much covers all the leagues problems.

Just a note, i think very few of our fans have their heads buried in the sand at this stage. Those that still do have them buried fairly deep.

CHD · 23-10-2009 10:45pm

How can you admit the LOI has so many problems then moan that people don't go ?

The facilities and standard are good reasons not to go, hardly bad excuses. If you look at the LOI fans on here they mostly support the Dublin sides and Cork i think. They are probably the only clubs worth supporting, (Derry seem to have a good bunch of fans from what i have seen too) every other club is run terribly and the tenner in to watch crap football most weeks simply isn't worth it. If most peoples local clubs were Shels, Rovers, Cork etc etc they would probably turn up, but the majority of teams are terrible and play in terrible facilities. Hardly going to attract people and will eventually put off people who do make the effort to support there team.

The FAI are the only ones who can improve the league by making a effort, unfortunately it probably won't happen.

SligoBrewer · 23-10-2009 11:14pm

CHD wrote: »

How can you admit the LOI has so many problems then moan that people don't go ?

The facilities and standard are good reasons not to go, hardly bad excuses. If you look at the LOI fans on here they mostly support the Dublin sides and Cork i think. They are probably the only clubs worth supporting, .

Dear CHD,
You emipitize what is wrong with the Irish public. The only clubs worth supporting are the good ones, the ones who can win stuff.

We (hopefully) will just about stave off relegation. We haven't won a "good" trophy in 11 years, but yet the emotions and the natural high you get from supporting your club make it so worth it.

When you actually give a **** about the game and not the bloody surroundings you know that it's worth it basically. You get hooked, you don't care about the **** grounds, the **** play or the **** roads to bloody Dundalk/Drogheda because you do anything for the drug that is actually caring about your team and choosing one cause they are "worth following".

I'm just home from the Showgrounds where a rather average game was played. The standard was average, the ground is above average for LOI, but the atmosphere and the feelings you get are outstanding.

Yes, I'll admit there are problems with the LOI. The adminisitration of the structure is shocking, from the clubs up, but do I care honestly?

If I want to find faults, I can find it in everything. I can lost out what is wrong with every bit of my surroundings. From my college, to my accomodation, to every bit of Irish society but do I abandon them? No. I need them, like I need Sligo Rovers. I actually need it. People can't understand that, and I know I'll get slated but meh.

I need Rovers, and they need me. It's like a loving relationship with a ugly woman where you care, in comparision to just shagging someone who looks well but you don't care. We sometimes fall out, but we fall back in love due to dependancy.

I'll admit there are a million things wrong but do I **** care. Neither should anyone tbh. Nor does any LOI fan.

The buzz I got off qualifying for Europe last year, and getting to a cup final in this one is justifiably enough reason for me to continue. The little glimpses of glory make the shot worthwhile.

d22ontour · 23-10-2009 11:16pm

Facilities might be a downer but shouldn't be an issue for a proper fan of a team.

The biggest problem is armchair epl supporters who go to the odd game in England and then whine about the standard of football here which is a joke in itself as almost all leagues in the world have a poor standard of football.I would go as far as to say bar maybe a few teams in Europe the rest play pretty poor football but that doesn't stop the REAL fans turning up to THEIR local teams.As a nation we are pretty shallow football fans and should be ashamed we don't support our local league.I used to go to my local team but out of laziness,stumbleupon,beer etc i dun go as much.:p

Any Utd,pool,chelsea,arsenal,etc fan who comes on and whines about the standard of football i pre-flame you knowing that at some point in yore clubs history they played shíte football and some still do.Am sure the most random country in europes top leagues standard is poor too but the fans still go , i wonder why ???

So in theory the biggest problem with our national league is epl armchair supporters who don't invest in our countries football and then whine why our country plays shíte football.

I have invested but still whine.

Diabhal Beag · 23-10-2009 11:18pm

I think that the clubs had no financial planning. Clubs like Cork City were relying on Europe to provide their bulk income. Other clubs spent too much and now we are suffering for it.

The LOI has been set back another 6 years with all the financial trouble IMO

3hn2givr7mx1sc · 23-10-2009 11:23pm

Out of 8 people I asked to go to a Rovers game with me, two said they would.
The others said the league is shíte and they'll go when it's good. Twats.

OPENROAD · 23-10-2009 11:23pm

d22ontour wrote: »

Facilities might be a downer but shouldn't be an issue for a proper fan of a team.

The biggest problem is armchair epl supporters who go to the odd game in England and then whine about the standard of football here which is a joke in itself as almost all leagues in the world have a poor standard of football.I would go as far as to say bar maybe a few teams in Europe the rest play pretty poor football but that doesn't stop the REAL fans turning up to THEIR local teams.As a nation we are pretty shallow football fans and should be ashamed we don't support our local league.I used to go to my local team but out of laziness,stumbleupon,beer etc i dun go as much.:p

Any Utd,pool,chelsea,arsenal,etc fan who comes on and whines about the standard of football i pre-flame you knowing that at some point in yore clubs history they played shíte football and some still do.Am sure the most random country in europes top leagues standard is poor too but the fans still go , i wonder why ???

So in theory the biggest problem with our national league is epl armchair supporters who don't invest in our countries football and then whine why our country plays shíte football.

I have invested but still whine.

Facilities are a big plus imo, granted when I started supporting Arsenal it did not come into it but as I started going to matches, it got be into the ground earlier and does make for a more enjoyable experience i.e. plenty of bars, clean toilet facilities etc...

d22ontour · 23-10-2009 11:49pm

OPENROAD wrote: »

Facilities are a big plus imo, granted when I started supporting Arsenal it did not come into it but as I started going to matches, it got be into the ground earlier and does make for a more enjoyable experience i.e. plenty of bars, clean toilet facilities etc...

I would expect a top four english club to have half decent facilities but being a REAL fan also equates to going to at least 17+ other grounds that mightn't have such luxurious surroundings.I would imagine that such facilities wouldn't be available without fans investing in their clubs when sub standard toilets were the norm , no ?Why do Wycombe wanderers fans support them so ? Am pretty sure they don't have decent facilities nor decent football to watch but yet they still turn up ?

The answer is we are a pathetic nation of armchair supporters of foreign leagues who know investing in our own league would raise the standard here but chose to invest in foreign corporations because getting a bus to Dalymount/Inchicore is too much hassle.

Guys i got to get up at 4am to the get boat/plane to manchester/liverpool to spend €200 on a game i expect us to win but like all daytrippers will boo the team off if they dont.

:rolleyes:

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 12:39am

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Dear CHD,
You emipitize what is wrong with the Irish public. The only clubs worth supporting are the good ones, the ones who can win stuff.

We (hopefully) will just about stave off relegation. We haven't won a "good" trophy in 11 years, but yet the emotions and the natural high you get from supporting your club make it so worth it.

When you actually give a **** about the game and not the bloody surroundings you know that it's worth it basically. You get hooked, you don't care about the **** grounds, the **** play or the **** roads to bloody Dundalk/Drogheda because you do anything for the drug that is actually caring about your team and choosing one cause they are "worth following".

I'm just home from the Showgrounds where a rather average game was played. The standard was average, the ground is above average for LOI, but the atmosphere and the feelings you get are outstanding.

Yes, I'll admit there are problems with the LOI. The adminisitration of the structure is shocking, from the clubs up, but do I care honestly?

If I want to find faults, I can find it in everything. I can lost out what is wrong with every bit of my surroundings. From my college, to my accomodation, to every bit of Irish society but do I abandon them? No. I need them, like I need Sligo Rovers. I actually need it. People can't understand that, and I know I'll get slated but meh.

I need Rovers, and they need me. It's like a loving relationship with a ugly woman where you care, in comparision to just shagging someone who looks well but you don't care. We sometimes fall out, but we fall back in love due to dependancy.

I'll admit there are a million things wrong but do I **** care. Neither should anyone tbh. Nor does any LOI fan.

The buzz I got off qualifying for Europe last year, and getting to a cup final in this one is justifiably enough reason for me to continue. The little glimpses of glory make the shot worthwhile.

Fvcking brilliant post. It went a bit Ian Hollowayish at times, but good stuff!!

OPENROAD · 24-10-2009 12:44am

monkey9 wrote: »

Fvcking brilliant post. It went a bit Ian Hollowayish at times, but good stuff!!

so it is not possible to get hooked on a premiership team then?

Iago · 24-10-2009 12:46am

if this turns into another circular argument about "real" fans and "barstoolers" and/or anyone starts getting abusive, there will be bans handed out immeadiately. No further warnings will be issued.

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 12:47am

I think facilities are a bit of a bullsh!t excuse, to be honest. Are you going for the match or a night out? If it's a night out, then you probably won't be back anyway. Next week, you'll be at the greyhounds!!!

OPENROAD · 24-10-2009 12:52am

monkey9 wrote: »

I think facilities are a bit of a bullsh!t excuse, to be honest. Are you going for the match or a night out? If it's a night out, then you probably won't be back anyway. Next week, you'll be at the greyhounds!!!

I never offered that as an excuse for myself not supporting loi.

stovelid · 24-10-2009 12:57am

OP - put simply, the clubs are trying desperately to sustain a (largely unworkable) professional setup, decent facilities and attract punters - by foolish means, I might add. Without meaningful or competent help from the national association. And without support, pride or interest from the "football-mad" Irish public. That's not a dig at anybody. Just the way it is.

Add the last decade of easy credit and property speculation to that disastrous mix too.

Personally I think the GAA and Rugby thing is a red herring. It would be a meaningful hypothesis is rugby and GAA support negatively affected interest in Engllish and continental football - which it plainly doesn't.

OPENROAD · 24-10-2009 1:00am

What the LOI need to do is to attract kids and attract them early, that way you have a good chance of them maintaining a long term support for a club.

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 1:03am

OPENROAD wrote: »

so it is not possible to get hooked on a premiership team then?

Of course it is, and i did with Liverpool when i was seven. And i know there are people here on Boards who have season tickets for English clubs and people in 'real life' too.

I'm not gonna get into the barstoolers/real fan debate, because i can geniunely see both sides. All i will say is that the barstoolers shouldn't dismiss the LOI just because of quality, facilities etc. I started going to St Pat's matches the last few seasons. I'm a season ticket holder there and i can genuinely say the times when we beat Elfsborg to qualify for the UEFA Cup 1st round proper or when Declan O' Brien scored the winner against Krylia Sovietov in Inchcore during the summer was up there with Istanbul. Different ends of the scale, i know. But it's that euphoria that you just can't beat!!

I suppose what i'm saying is that the 'barstoolers' don't know what they're missing by not going to actual matches as opposed to watching games on tv.
And there's no reason why you can't support an English club while going to LOI games.

I would never expect anyone to stop supporting an English club if they've been supporting them since they were young!! You just can't do it. Liverpool have been an emotional rollercoaster for me every year for me.

But i love friday nights at Richmond Park..........except this season, cos Pat's could seriously get relegated!!! Bad times!!!!

stovelid · 24-10-2009 1:04am

OPENROAD wrote: »

What the LOI need to do is to attract kids and attract them early, that way you have a good chance of them maintaining a long term support for a club.

That's why you need facilities and a part of the ground that offers a family orientated vibe.

At the minute, the only parents that bring kids are aficionados themselves.

This is where the local authorities (even if only to rubber-stamp and support grant and funding applications) and the FAI have to step in.

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 1:06am

OPENROAD wrote: »

I never offered that as an excuse for myself not supporting loi.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at yourself. It was just a general comment

OPENROAD · 24-10-2009 1:09am

monkey9 wrote: »

Sorry, that wasn't directed at yourself. It was just a general comment

no worries mate, had a feeling it wasn't but wasn't sure

chopperbyrne · 24-10-2009 1:14am

stovelid wrote: »

That's why you need facilities and a part of the ground that offers a family orientated vibe.

At the minute, the only parents that bring kids are aficionados themselves.

This is where the local authorities (even if only to rubber-stamp and support grant and funding applications) and the FAI have to step in.

Which is what Fingal County Council have done with Sporting Fingal, much to the dismay of Shels and Bohs fans.

Fingal could end up being one of the best clubs in Ireland if they can get families in from the start and keep the interest and spread the word that they're a family friendly club.

stovelid · 24-10-2009 1:18am

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Which is what Fingal County Council have done with Sporting Fingal, much to the dismay of Shels and Bohs fans.

Fingal could end up being one of the best clubs in Ireland if they can get families in from the start and keep the interest and spread the word that they're a family friendly club.

Shels or Bohs should have been approached instead of creating a new club from scratch.

CHD · 24-10-2009 1:27am

monkey9 wrote: »

I suppose what i'm saying is that the people who support teams from TV land don't know what they're missing by not going to actual matches as opposed to watching games on tv.

Yes they do and FYP

chopperbyrne · 24-10-2009 1:29am

stovelid wrote: »

Shels or Bohs should have been approached instead of creating a new club from scratch.

Trying to get families to look past the stigma of hooliganism attached to current clubs would be a lot harder than creating a new family friendly club, but I do agree that those clubs having the support of the council would be nice, and preferable.

d22ontour · 24-10-2009 1:29am

monkey9 wrote: »

Of course it is, and i did with Liverpool when i was seven. And i know there are people here on Boards who have season tickets for English clubs and people in 'real life' too.

I would go by posters previous posts think there is at most 2 people on boards who have season tickets to an epl club.

monkey9 wrote: »

I'm not gonna get into the barstoolers/real fan debate, because i can geniunely see both sides. All i will say is that the barstoolers shouldn't dismiss the LOI just because of quality, facilities etc.

That's all they do dismiss though...

monkey9 wrote: »

I started going to St Pat's matches the last few seasons. I'm a season ticket holder there and i can genuinely say the times when we beat Elfsborg to qualify for the UEFA Cup 1st round proper or when Declan O' Brien scored the winner against Krylia Sovietov in Inchcore during the summer was up there with Istanbul.

Achieving something in football is on par with a clubs limitations.

monkey9 wrote: »

Different ends of the scale, i know. But it's that euphoria that you just can't beat!!

This is for me is were your decent post fails tbh.

There is no scale in football, just limitations.You think a cl win for a top 5 european club is on a par with a club making the uefa cup 1st round defying the odds tells me what you really think of irsih football.

monkey9 wrote: »

I suppose what i'm saying is that the 'barstoolers' don't know what they're missing by not going to actual matches as opposed to watching games on tv.
And there's no reason why you can't support an English club while going to LOI games.

Your intentions are not as admirible as i thought.Hi Guyz we have 500 euro a year to waste on football,shall we waste it on sky sports or should we go to invest in local football.

monkey9 wrote: »

I would never expect anyone to stop supporting an English club if they've been supporting them since they were young!! You just can't do it. Liverpool have been an emotional rollercoaster for me every year for me.

But i love friday nights at Richmond Park..........except this season, cos Pat's could seriously get relegated!!! Bad times!!!!

I have spent many an hour in richmond over the years but don't see something to bring my kids to.

stovelid · 24-10-2009 1:31am

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Trying to get families to look past the stigma of hooliganism attached to current clubs would be a lot harder than creating a new family friendly club,

Chelsea (or any of the other big British clubs) don't seem have a problem over here in that regard, do they?

dreamers75 · 24-10-2009 1:37am

d22ontour wrote: »

I have spent many an hour in richmond over the years but don't see something to bring my kids to.

And your last game was?

stovelid wrote: »

Chelsea (or any of the other big British clubs) don't seem have a problem over here in that regard, do they?

What people dont see doesnt hurt.

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 1:57am

CHD wrote: »

Yes they do and FYP

No need to fix my post. It was grand the way it was

They don't know because they don't go!!!

OPENROAD · 24-10-2009 2:09am

dreamers75 wrote: »

And your last game was?

What people dont see doesnt hurt.

By and large hooliganism is virtually gone from a match day at most premiership clubs from my own experience at any rate , of all the years going to Arsenal I have maybe seen one or two minor incidents and fans tend to mix freely around grounds before and after.
Also football in the premiership is now very much family orientated and this has been very well documented.

What is the situation with LOI? Although I don't think this would be an issue for people not going to matches here bringing kids, is it?

monkey9 · 24-10-2009 2:31am

OPENROAD wrote: »

By and large hooliganism is virtually gone from a match day at most premiership clubs from my own experience at any rate , of all the years going to Arsenal I have maybe seen one or two minor incidents and fans tend to mix freely around grounds before and after.
Also football in the premiership is now very much family orientated and this has been very well documented.

What is the situation with LOI? Although I don't think this would be an issue for people not going to matches here bringing kids, is it?

I have to say, within Ireland, it's not really a problem!!! You can get it if you look for it, i'd say. But i have never had a problem going to games!!

To be honest, i'd say it's the same in England. On a greater scale maybe, but if you want to avoiid i think you can.

If you do get caught up in that kind of thing, it's only if you go looking for it!! But you could be caught up in a lot of things in society!!

GLaDOS · 24-10-2009 3:45am

I may get stick for this, but I think the quality of football argument isn't as relative as people think. Look at the premiership, plenty of teams play crap (but effective) football. Look how well Stoke are doing considering they only got promoted last season. There's plenty of "boring as hell" matches in the premiership, yet just as many "heart in your mouth, last minute equaliser" stuff in the LOI. Just becauce Cristiano Ronaldo didn't beat four players and deliver an amazing cross for Benzema to smack it in with a diving header doesn't change the emotion of a winning goal hitting the back of the net in the 89th minute.

Quality doesn't necessarily mean the best entertainment. Ask a rovers fan tonight if they were entertained. Ask a Liverpool fan if they'd take winning the league while playing crap football. Ask a Greek if they're are ashamed of the way they won Euro 2004. Once you get behind the team you take every little piece of success between your teeth and hold onto it.

I'm a Bohs fan, and one of the most entertaining matches of the season was our 2-1 loss at home to Bray. Top of the league and reigning chamions and for the 2nd time in a week we'd been humbled by relation strugglers while simutaniously blowing the title race wide open. But fcuk me it was a match and a half. I was depressed and angry, but at the same time, it was a better 90 minutes than a 0-0 draw.

In the words of my good friend as we celebrated Cork beating Rovers "This league is fcuking crazy".

I know the LOI is riddled with problems, from top to bottom. We may never compete with the best in Europe and play champagne football. But as I learned last year, in my first year following Irish football, it doesn't matter as much as you think

Gavin "shels" · 24-10-2009 4:02am

Pride, Passion and Dedication, whos really gives a f**k about facilities.

DU.LLAHAN · 24-10-2009 9:19am

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Dear CHD,
You emipitize what is wrong with the Irish public. The only clubs worth supporting are the good ones, the ones who can win stuff.

We (hopefully) will just about stave off relegation. We haven't won a "good" trophy in 11 years, but yet the emotions and the natural high you get from supporting your club make it so worth it.

When you actually give a **** about the game and not the bloody surroundings you know that it's worth it basically. You get hooked, you don't care about the **** grounds, the **** play or the **** roads to bloody Dundalk/Drogheda because you do anything for the drug that is actually caring about your team and choosing one cause they are "worth following".

I'm just home from the Showgrounds where a rather average game was played. The standard was average, the ground is above average for LOI, but the atmosphere and the feelings you get are outstanding.

Yes, I'll admit there are problems with the LOI. The adminisitration of the structure is shocking, from the clubs up, but do I care honestly?

If I want to find faults, I can find it in everything. I can lost out what is wrong with every bit of my surroundings. From my college, to my accomodation, to every bit of Irish society but do I abandon them? No. I need them, like I need Sligo Rovers. I actually need it. People can't understand that, and I know I'll get slated but meh.

I need Rovers, and they need me. It's like a loving relationship with a ugly woman where you care, in comparision to just shagging someone who looks well but you don't care. We sometimes fall out, but we fall back in love due to dependancy.

I'll admit there are a million things wrong but do I **** care. Neither should anyone tbh. Nor does any LOI fan.

The buzz I got off qualifying for Europe last year, and getting to a cup final in this one is justifiably enough reason for me to continue. The little glimpses of glory make the shot worthwhile.

Exactally brill post

Pure Cork · 24-10-2009 9:20am

Des wrote: »

Club owners/chairmen/boards

Everyone dreams of "The CL Group Stages", but the fact is that Irish players playing in the LoI aren't good enough to get to that stage. Club Chairmen throwing money at the "best" players, paying them unsustainable wages, sending their clubs to the wall. It's an impossible situation, plunging clubs into debt on the thin dream of going a couple of stages further in Europe. Clubs that have paid top dollar to the cream of the LoI talent have simply not done it to that level, and they don't look like doing it.

Chasing a dream that is seemingly impossible to attain, and chairman after chairman keeps doing it.

You forgot to mention club owners/chairmen/boards who show utter comtempt for the club, fans, players and staff, who are using clubs for their own personal gain.

Des wrote: »

head-in-sand supporters (I am guilty of this myself)

When you say to a supporter of Club X that they are living an unsustainable pipe dream you are accused of jealousy and bitterness. I must hold my hands up and admit that I was guilty of that for a number of years. When the shít hit the fan at Shels I learned. But trying imparting that lesson to fans of Cork City and Bohs over the last couple of years and I was called every name under the sun on this MB. "Oh shut up, you're jealous and bitter". The same kind of thing I used to say to Rovers fans. The same thing Drogs fans said to us, and now Cork and Bohs fans are at the same thing. Has to be said, that some Cork supporters are finally realising that they are in trouble. Bohs not so much. But it will happen.

The vast majority of City fans know what's happening at the club.

CHD wrote: »

How can you admit the LOI has so many problems then moan that people don't go ?

The facilities and standard are good reasons not to go, hardly bad excuses. If you look at the LOI fans on here they mostly support the Dublin sides and Cork i think. They are probably the only clubs worth supporting, (Derry seem to have a good bunch of fans from what i have seen too) every other club is run terribly and the tenner in to watch crap football most weeks simply isn't worth it. If most peoples local clubs were Shels, Rovers, Cork etc etc they would probably turn up, but the majority of teams are terrible and play in terrible facilities. Hardly going to attract people and will eventually put off people who do make the effort to support there team.

The FAI are the only ones who can improve the league by making a effort, unfortunately it probably won't happen.

If anybody went to watch City for the first time this season they would probably be put off for life. Awful football, and a soulless atmosphere. Less than 1000 at the game last night according to the Examiner. Derry are a great club, unfortunately they are struggling financially. I think your comments on clubs not from Cork or Dublin are unfair, take Sligo for example who are a good footballing side. There are too many clubs in Dublin.

Bandit12 · 24-10-2009 9:21am

Brought the kids a few times but the standard is very poor and the kids did'nt enjoy it at all. I said it a while ago that if they wanted to put bums on seats they need to start thinking of approaching the Scottish and NI football assocations and come up with a new league set up. It would work for all parties as all leagues have a huge problem with the standard of football played. I'm sure the LOI fans will disagree and would rather see their clubs go out of business mind.

Pure Cork · 24-10-2009 9:28am

Bandit12 wrote: »

Brought the kids a few times but the standard is very poor and the kids did'nt enjoy it at all. I said it a while ago that if they wanted to put bums on seats they need to start thinking of approaching the Scottish and NI football assocations and come up with a new league set up. It would work for all parties as all leagues have a huge problem with the standard of football played. I'm sure the LOI fans will disagree and would rather see their clubs go out of business mind.

Yeah, we'd love our clubs to go out of business. (Although, as a Cork City fan, I would like to see CCIFL go out of business to get rid of Coughlan.) That's a brilliant solution you've come up with. Nobody has ever thought of that before. It would be the simplest thing in the world to implement.

stovelid · 24-10-2009 9:56am

Bandit12 wrote: »

Brought the kids a few times but the standard is very poor and the kids did'nt enjoy it at all..

What age are your kids? Did you have a detailed tactical discussion of the game with them afterwards?

Xavi6 · 24-10-2009 10:36am

Bandit12 wrote: »

Brought the kids a few times but the standard is very poor and the kids did'nt enjoy it at all.

Sorry but I don't think the standard has anything to do with them not enjoying it.

If Cristiano Ronaldo/Fernano Torres were on the pitch for UCD against Bray I'm certain your kids would have a different outlook on it, even though the other 21 players out there would still be the same and of the same 'very poor' standard.

Kids want glitz and glamour and names they recognise from the playground/tv. That's just the way they are.

_blank_ · 24-10-2009 10:53am

Pure Cork wrote: »

You forgot to mention club owners/chairmen/boards who show utter comtempt for the club, fans, players and staff, who are using clubs for their own personal gain.

Aye, I know, but I didn't really want to write a book as my post, so of course I left some stuff out.

Also, it was Friday evening after a long week in work, there was a bottle of wine open and my gf was nagging me to get off the computer.

gosplan · 24-10-2009 11:10am

Des wrote: »

People simply not caring enough to go to games

Hmm, I don't really want to to post this on this MB because I/we generally get called trolls for it, but it needs to be said.

Irish people, in the main, simply don't care enough. They come up with all types of excuses to not go to games. None of them really good enough.

The facilities
The standard
Can't just start supporting another team
Never went as a kid
etc.

In other countries with "smaller" leagues, people manage to take an interest in the local game AND in the big leagues in Spain and England and wherever.

This will sound very arsey but I think people in Ireland have become very consumer-ish by nature. When fans look at football, they support a team. When consumers look at football they look at the brands.

That combined with longer working hours, less free time, commuttes etc means the death of the national league.

micks · 24-10-2009 11:12am

Des good post and I'll use this to give my thoughts on the issue as a non-LOI fan.
I am involved with my loal club LSL/DDSL etc and give 30+ hrs every week
I also consider my self a Liverpool supporter.

The FAI

Quite simply, the FAI are refusing to acknowledge that problems exist. They constantly tell lies. Lies to the effect that they are making the match going fan become more and more cynical about their involvement in the running of the league. Before the FAI took over the running of the league, three or four years ago, these same problems were there too, but the FAI promised changes. They introduced a Licencing Agreement (clubs must adhere to certain rules to gain a "licence" to compete in the league), and it was great. The only problem is that they don't enforce it. They make up rules and punishments as they go along. Nobody trusts them. Shels were denied a Premier League Licence in 2007, and were effectively demoted to the First Division. No other club which has had the same money problems since then has suffered this fate. Drogheda for instance last season, looks like Cork City this season. Furthermore, in recent times the FAI have been giving "dig outs" to clubs to cover up the state of affairs, then coming out and basically saying everything is rosy in the garden.

I could go on on this point, there are far, far more problems in relation to the FAI, but they are the main ones.

The FAI
Being involved in grassroots they are trying and have improved a hell of a lot
Ultimately they are at the top of the tree and have to carry the can
But I feel if they were to bring in what they want they'd be slated. They appear to be trying with the likes of the A Champ - which now has brought "LOI" football to the likes of offaly/mayo/kerry/carlow etc and will in time IMO bring a feasible link between schoolboy/junior/LOI
To use a crime analogy if a kid robs a car and is let off without prison and robs again etc who's fault is it that he robs a car? His or the system for not punishing him enough?
If the FAI clamped down on the corks/drogs etc fully and looked into all other clubs then IMO opinion there'd be a lot of teams in the first div.
Its damage limitation if 5 clubs were heavily punished by the FAI at the end of this season what would that do to the public's opinion of the LOI?

Club owners/chairmen/boards

Everyone dreams of "The CL Group Stages", but the fact is that Irish players playing in the LoI aren't good enough to get to that stage. Club Chairmen throwing money at the "best" players, paying them unsustainable wages, sending their clubs to the wall. It's an impossible situation, plunging clubs into debt on the thin dream of going a couple of stages further in Europe. Clubs that have paid top dollar to the cream of the LoI talent have simply not done it to that level, and they don't look like doing it.

Chasing a dream that is seemingly impossible to attain, and chairman after chairman keeps doing it.

As Charlie not living within our means! I cant for the life of me understand with the last 10 or so yrs of teams in financial trouble how a board can take chances and not be "living within our means"
Supporters' trusts are the way to go get rid of the dodgy charimen etc that are taking chances

head-in-sand supporters (I am guilty of this myself)

When you say to a supporter of Club X that they are living an unsustainable pipe dream you are accused of jealousy and bitterness. I must hold my hands up and admit that I was guilty of that for a number of years. When the shít hit the fan at Shels I learned. But trying imparting that lesson to fans of Cork City and Bohs over the last couple of years and I was called every name under the sun on this MB. "Oh shut up, you're jealous and bitter". The same kind of thing I used to say to Rovers fans. The same thing Drogs fans said to us, and now Cork and Bohs fans are at the same thing. Has to be said, that some Cork supporters are finally realising that they are in trouble. Bohs not so much. But it will happen.

But we go back to the FAI point here. They have given dig outs on numerous occasions to paper over the cracks, and so the troubles disappear for a while, only to come back worse a couple of months later.

This is prob the biggest prob IMO maybe not with all but most that i have met any not as you say but the like to moan about poor attendances and blame the GAH the rugby the EPL etc
Yet when I go to the Real Madrid match v rovers I'm not a real fan
When I bring 8 people inc 4 kids 3 of whom happened to be wearing UTD/Pool tops we weren't real fans
Why does a mod have to warn about this getting into "real fans" vs "Barstoolers"
Would you all have a problem if there was 5000 people watching your club but they were wearing UTD tops and that was their preference?
LOI fans IMO think that their club has a devine right to be supported
I had a row with a bloke one time he claimed to be a real football fan and i was a barstooler/fraud for supporting Liverpool. I asked what did he contribute to irish football he said he went to all Bohs games. I asked how many hrs did he contribute to Irish football giving him the benifit of the pub being inc he reckoned 5 to 10 hrs a week for 30 weeks. When i explained that i give 30+ hrs to my club - his answer was it didn't count because i was a barstoller who'd prefer watch Liverpool over a LOI club!

the players

Yep, the players take some blame. The wages they have demanded have crippled clubs.

They'll take what they can get TBH and its their job would you not move to a different job for more money?

The gap between schoolboy football and the LoI/the talent drain to the UK

These are linked

This is a big thing. The talent drain to England/Scotland. There is literally no link between LoI clubs and Schoolboy Clubs (apart from a few isolated cases, granted). Youngsters should be on a conveyer belt that goes Schoolboy --> Youth/U21 LoI --> Senior Team --> Abroad, but that whole middle part is not there (see Kevin Doyle as one of the only counter examples of this). This would accomplish two things.

1. More talent in the LoI would see a higher standard of football and may encourage crowds

2. Better players stay in the game. I reckon about 90% of people all know a talented fella who went over to England at sixteen or seventeen, and arrived home at twenty two having "not made it", then working in factories or whatever, not playing football. If more players had the "Kevin Doyle" experience, I think the clubs here would benefit from this, and so would the players, and ultimately, the national team.

This is a huge problem and IMO the blame lies squarely with the LOI clubs.
The DDSL is one of the best leagues standard wise in Europe, more kids go to professional clubs from the DDSL than any other league apparently. Mainly because of its size in other countries it would be broken into 4 or 5 leagues.
Most LOI clubs only got schoolboy set-up because licencing required it some still have not!! and just leeched a relationship with a neighbouring club to get over a hurdle.
This section IMO can fix alot of the problems in the LOI. Using rovers as an example they now have a thriving schoolboy structure with many teams reaching the top tier of DDSL this means they will have top players available to them, any deemed good enough to go abroad will bring in money and prob return, and most importantly it opens them to possibly 500 underage players who are mostly going to attend games and maybe with a parent or 2 and as such boosting attendances.
How can clubs not see the benefits of a successful schoolboy structure in ireland?
Instead of Cherry Orchard,belvedere etc it should be Rovers/Bohs/Pats etc competing for all the top leagues in schoolboy football
IMO they have left it to late to join and with the tide in schoolboy football starting to turn to clubs that have invested heavily in facilities (Malahide/Wayside/Peamount/Dunboyne/Crumlin etc) parents are now going to these clubs because the facilities match the quaility on the field

anyway bottom line a successful schoolboy structure would heal a lot of porblems in eth LOI IMO

People simply not caring enough to go to games

Hmm, I don't really want to to post this on this MB because I/we generally get called trolls for it, but it needs to be said.

Irish people, in the main, simply don't care enough. They come up with all types of excuses to not go to games. None of them really good enough.

The facilities
The standard
Can't just start supporting another team
Never went as a kid
etc.

In other countries with "smaller" leagues, people manage to take an interest in the local game AND in the big leagues in Spain and England and wherever.

Irish people are fickle but it as worked in the past and will again
Dublin GAH and Leinster are 2 examples of packing stadia with fickle fans that dont really care what happens and most are there for the day out
Is there even 80,000 members in Dublin GAH yet they fill croker every time with "Barstoolers" most LOI fans i spoke to said Real Madrid game would not sell out at €60 a ticket................
I agree with you that people will look for excuses but its up to the clubs to keep pushing and market correctly
My club has over 500 members and have never been approched to attend LOI games my kids school has never been approached but they have a GAH Dev offices in every week!
On the back of the Madrid game my kids have both been back to rovers games and will again in the future
I dont attend games but will now with my kids even thining about a season ticket for next year but work may stop that
I reall have to applaud Rovers IMO they have built something special there with the way the club is going and I can see they flourishing if they dont get too carried away
My main reason for not going to LOI games had nothing to do with the reasons you've outlined and more to do with a lack of free time.
However if it had been pushed to me 20 yrs ago then I reckon I'd be still going weekly and that is what's needed IMO.

What is wrong with the LOI? {Mod Note #22}

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