What is wrong with the LOI? {Mod Note #22}

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Great post micks

HalloweenJack

One thing I don't believe as being one of the perceived problems of the LOI is that players "demand" higher wages.

If a player is asking for a wage that a club cannot afford, the clubs should just tell them to **** off and find another club. If the player's any good, he'll find another club who can afford to pay him. If he's ****e, then he won't get a club and will have to lower his demands if he wants one.

Imo, the high wages are in place because the clubs are willing to pay them and will not stand up to the players. This needs to start happening. A lot of average players in this league earn a lot of money.

Mint Sauce

been living in ireland for about 11 years, only really started following LOI in the last few, mainly because i currently live quite close to my local club, was orriginally something to do in the evenings, but once i started going to a few games got drawn into it

For this year got a season ticket, been to the cup and european games, only missed 2 or 3 home games in total and its been an absolute rollercoaster of a season, you dont get that same emotion compared to watching it on TV

Some people i know laugh and scoff when they hear i'm going to the match, granted its never going to be able to compete with the EPL in regards to the quality and the following

ok so i'll still go to the pub at the weekend to watch the liverpool/utd match and on monday morning, will discuss the EPL and the fantasy footie with one group of lads, and discuss rovers exploits and the hunt for final tickets with another group of lads

think the main problems with the LOI and the the FAI is

(i) marketing/promotion/public awareness, the EPL is marketing around the world, the FA website is one of the most in depth websites i have seen, every single cup competition is listed with dates for every round right up to the final before the season even starts, i'm still trying to find offical confirmation of when the FAI cup final is. i know its next month some time and in tallaght, thats it.

Also dont think it gets enough coverage in the media, We live in ireland, so when it comes to football, why do most print and tv give preference or more time to the EPL, full page articals on each game, with all the LOI games cramed in to two pages, on the sports news, the EPL is first, not knocking the EPL, follow it as well, but shouldn't we be covering our own teams competions first.

(ii), think the the leauge went professional two quickly, clubs are looking for better players, players are looking for more money, the clubs are not getting big enough crowds to get that revenue, which draws from the points mentioned above, last year sligo were in trouble, this year already bohs, cork and derry are in/facing difficulties. The FAI also need to look at and reasses how they deal with these maters and have a fair and unbias system arcross the whole league, regardless of club size/location

apolagies if whole thing sounds rambled, or does not sound like i now what am talking about, still quite a newbie to LOI, but i know what i see, i enjoy following the leauge, and going to the matches, and although am probably blow in in terms of my local club, still want to see them do well and be sucessfull, for the followers of LOI, it gives me/them something to talk/argue about, if we didn't have them would only be spending more money in the pub and ripping out hair on a team in another country

so gonna take a back seat again, think i have spoke enough on this and leave it to people who know a little more about it

TheBigLebowski

monkey9 wrote: »

I think facilities are a bit of a bullsh!t excuse, to be honest. Are you going for the match or a night out? If it's a night out, then you probably won't be back anyway. Next week, you'll be at the greyhounds!!!

The facilities at a lot of places don't help. I was unfortunate enough to find myself as an away supporter in Oriel park last night. What a ****ing kip.

I could hardly see half the pitch from the away supporters "terrace". After the match, we were held back for 30 minutes (30 minutes is a bloody long time to be stood at a gate waiting to get out for a long drive home). When we were finally let out, we were forced to walk down a laneway in 2 inches of mud. I couldn't see my hand in front of my face because it was completely unlit. Absolutely digraceful.

I will carefully pick and choose my away games from now on and it is sure as hell the last time I give Dundalk FC another 15 euro for that farce.

SligoBrewer

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

I will carefully pick and choose my away games from now on and it is sure as hell the last time I give Dundalk FC another 15 euro for that farce.

You know it won't be though. I made the same promise before about going to Dalymount cause of their thick ignorant stewards.

Gavin "shels"

Bandit12 wrote: »

NI football assocations and come up with a new league set up

Hardly the right people to ask, there attendences and facilities are worse than the LoI.

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

I could hardly see half the pitch from the away supporters "terrace". After the match, we were held back for 30 minutes (30 minutes is a bloody long time to be stood at a gate waiting to get out for a long drive home). When we were finally let out, we were forced to walk down a laneway in 2 inches of mud. I couldn't see my hand in front of my face because it was completely unlit. Absolutely digraceful.

I will carefully pick and choose my away games from now on and it is sure as hell the last time I give Dundalk FC another 15 euro for that farce.

Throw an oul email to the FAI (Noel Mooney or Fran Gavin).

Foxx92

Xavi6 wrote: »

Kids want glitz and glamour and names they recognise from the playground/tv. That's just the way they are.

It's not just the kids that are attracted to the glamour and glitz of it, In Tallaght against Madrid I doubt all 11,000 were kids and why 95% of the population just 'happens' to support one of the two best teams in England.

GLaDOS

Foxx92 wrote: »

It's not just the kids that are attracted to the glamour and glitz of it, In Tallaght against Madrid I doubt all 11,000 were kids and why 95% of the population just 'happens' to support one of the two best teams in England.

Sure Dalymount sold out for friendly against Liverpool reserves :rolleyes:

fobster

irish-stew wrote: »

think the main problems with the LOI and the the FAI is

(i) marketing/promotion/public awareness, the EPL is marketing around the world, the FA website is one of the most in depth websites i have seen, every single cup competition is listed with dates for every round right up to the final before the season even starts, i'm still trying to find offical confirmation of when the FAI cup final is. i know its next month some time and in tallaght, thats it.

Also dont think it gets enough coverage in the media, We live in ireland, so when it comes to football, why do most print and tv give preference or more time to the EPL, full page articals on each game, with all the LOI games cramed in to two pages, on the sports news, the EPL is first, not knocking the EPL, follow it as well, but shouldn't we be covering our own teams competions first.

(ii), think the the leauge went professional two quickly, clubs are looking for better players, players are looking for more money, the clubs are not getting big enough crowds to get that revenue, which draws from the points mentioned above, last year sligo were in trouble, this year already bohs, cork and derry are in/facing difficulties. The FAI also need to look at and reasses how they deal with these maters and have a fair and unbias system arcross the whole league, regardless of club size/location

Exactly, good post. It's like any situation where a business tries to grow to quickly and quickly runs into funding/revenue issues. As above there isn't the tv coverage money, the syndication deals, the advertising to bring in much needed additional revenue. No club can survive on attendance revenue alone, it's the additional sources that are needed, granted these can increase if match attendance improves, advertising in particular.

Now I don't know the figures but taking the top four teams' sponsors at the moment of Des Kelly Interiors, Woodies DIY, Beamish and Meteor Electrical. How much do you reckon those advertising deals are worth?

Gavin "shels"

fobster wrote: »

Now I don't know the figures but taking the top four teams' sponsors at the moment of Des Kelly Interiors, Woodies DIY, Beamish and Meteor Electrical. How much do you reckon those advertising deals are worth?

Would be in the region of 6 figure deals I'd say, I know at Shels for a 2 year sponsorship contract with Cab2000 we got a 6 figure sum and we don't get TV coverage on a Monday night or when there's live matches.

grenache

The talent drain to British clubs of our young players is the single biggest issue facing those in charge of Irish football. A stupid question perhaps, but would it not be possible for the FAI to place an embargo on all youth players moving to overseas clubs before the age of 21? If it could be put in place, it should be, and would improve the league no end. Its probably a non starter though as it may contravene EU laws.

DSB

grenache wrote: »

The talent drain to British clubs of our young players is the single biggest issue facing those in charge of Irish football. A stupid question perhaps, but would it not be possible for the FAI to place an embargo on all youth players moving to overseas clubs before the age of 21? If it could be put in place, it should be, and would improve the league no end. Its probably a non starter though as it may contravene EU laws.

I'd imagine it is illegal, and even if it wasn't, I doubt there is a hope the FAI would go with it, as there are alot more people to anger by neglecting the national team as there are the national league. Bit awkward I suppose.

sillymoo

Of course facilities have something to do with it. Look at what the new stadium has done for Shamrock Rovers.

iregk

sillymoo wrote: »

Of course facilities have something to do with it. Look at what the new stadium has done for Shamrock Rovers.

Well its not fully down to the new stadium. Yes that has a significant effect, i.e. if people walked into a hole of a stadium, they'd probably not come back. Rovers however always had a large following in Tallaght but years of playing "away" when we were at home put off a lot of fans and most in some strange way suspended their following of the team. Rovers moving to tallaght reignited the fire and a lot of these fans came back.

With that move a lot of younger fans are now getting the experience of what live football is, what really supporting your team from the stand is rather than sitting on a couch with your dad. Anyone I've brought to tallaght has always commented on the amount of families and kids at the games.

The original question is whats the problems. Its skating a thin line between a discussion and an all out flame war that I don't think the op realised. Its a huge mixture of problems and ones if we are to fix will take a long time and participation by the FAI. Time we have, participation we don't!

cson

Are Rovers the template for how to manage a club?

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cson wrote: »

Are Rovers the template for how to manage a club?

If you can get all your debts written off, then yes, they are.

cson

Des wrote: »

If you can get all your debts written off, then yes, they are.

Well, aside from the past I mean. They're part time and the fans have an active role in running the club and the club itself seems to be prospering when all around it are in the mire. I could be way off the mark here but that's how it seems to me. Actually, can Ireland sustain full time football clubs realistically?

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cson wrote: »

Well, aside from the past I mean. They're part time and the fans have an active role in running the club and the club itself seems to be prospering when all around it are in the mire. I could be way off the mark here but that's how it seems to me.

That is the way it is, after they had millions written off.

Shels are doing things right now too, part time, sustainable budget and paying historical debt. Fans involved at Boardroom level too, but not to the extent of Rovers.

cson wrote: »

Actually, can Ireland sustain full time football clubs realistically?

It doesn't seem so, no.

iregk

Well as any long term Rovers fan will tell you we went through pretty much what Shels, Cork and Derry are going through. All be it with certain differences. Neither of these clubs has a patch of what Bohs are doing mind you and thats a whole other kettle of ball parks.

At present though yes Rovers are the current template for how a LOI club should be run. Part-time team, well below the wage cap, high gate reciepts, a great presence in the local area and in connection/tapping into the youth of said area.

In answer to your last question there is only one way Ireland can sustain full time professional football and thats if everyone who follows the EPL starts to follow the LOI. This is not going to happen though so realistically no, we cannot sustain a full time professional league.

eightyfish

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Sure Dalymount sold out for friendly against Liverpool reserves :rolleyes:

Make that Bohemians Reserves vs Liverpool Reserves. It also sold out for Bohemians vs Red Bull Salzburg (one of the most heart-wrenching games I've ever been to).

I love the LOI. I'm not even that into football. I prefer rugby to watch. But my Dad has gone to see Bohs play at Dalymount his whole life, his Dad had been going since the ground opened. He brought myself and my brother as kids, and we probably spent more time mucking about in the grounds than actually watching the game. As I got older, I stopped going. Then I moved out of my parents home 9 years ago, and started going to games again with my Dad about 4 years ago. It's absolutely brilliant. I mean, supporting a team that's winning does help at the moment, but he's been following them through all sorts of results without fail.

The atmosphere of a competitive game is incredible, joining in with 2,000 people cheering on your team when the ball drives home is enough to lift anyone's spirits. The sullen atmosphere after a bad loss is something you take home with you and into the next day. It's all about being there, living it, or something like that.

I don't care about the quality of the game compared to foreign leagues, and I don't really see the point of watching it on TV if they're not wearing green shirts. The LOI is something we should be proud of. It's sad to see so many clubs in financial difficulty. I don't know what the solution is, but I've invited a few friends along this year and a couple of them are coming to more games (inc v Sligo this Friday).

All we can do to help is go and support - cheer and boo and question the referee's parentage - and then digest it after over a pint. If it disappears, we'll have lost something important.

stovelid

Rovers aren't the only team who are playing fair, even if they are the ones doing best at the minute. Shels, and a few others, are too.

Of course, the teams, apart from Rovers, that did so in the premier are sadly paying for it on the field while a few of the usual suspects are the upper echelons of the division and getting away with it, as ever. If a team like Bray goes down and Cork or Bohs are allowed to stay up....

Full time and part-time, as I keep on saying, is a misnomer. A realistic constitution of full-time wages are. If full time means 3-4k a week on gates of 2k, then, no, we can't support full-time football.

On an aside, I'm not bashing Sporting Fingal but what's all this recent positive media about community and what not. I assume they have the highest wages in the division on gates of few hundred. This is of course, the same old story, no?

eightyfish

stovelid wrote: »

On an aside, I'm not bashing Sporting Fingal but what's all this recent positive media about community and what not.

Interesting. Haven't seen that. Any links?

stovelid

eightyfish wrote: »

Interesting. Haven't seen that. Any links?

In the print media and in fairness, were topical (FAI cup related). There were definitely a complimentary article in the SINDO, and I think in in the Irish Times too.

Edit: actually here is the Irish time one and the Sunday Indo one.

gustavo

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Dear CHD,
You emipitize what is wrong with the Irish public. The only clubs worth supporting are the good ones, the ones who can win stuff.

We (hopefully) will just about stave off relegation. We haven't won a "good" trophy in 11 years, but yet the emotions and the natural high you get from supporting your club make it so worth it.

When you actually give a **** about the game and not the bloody surroundings you know that it's worth it basically. You get hooked, you don't care about the **** grounds, the **** play or the **** roads to bloody Dundalk/Drogheda because you do anything for the drug that is actually caring about your team and choosing one cause they are "worth following".

I'm just home from the Showgrounds where a rather average game was played. The standard was average, the ground is above average for LOI, but the atmosphere and the feelings you get are outstanding.

Yes, I'll admit there are problems with the LOI. The adminisitration of the structure is shocking, from the clubs up, but do I care honestly?

If I want to find faults, I can find it in everything. I can lost out what is wrong with every bit of my surroundings. From my college, to my accomodation, to every bit of Irish society but do I abandon them? No. I need them, like I need Sligo Rovers. I actually need it. People can't understand that, and I know I'll get slated but meh.

I need Rovers, and they need me. It's like a loving relationship with a ugly woman where you care, in comparision to just shagging someone who looks well but you don't care. We sometimes fall out, but we fall back in love due to dependancy.

I'll admit there are a million things wrong but do I **** care. Neither should anyone tbh. Nor does any LOI fan.

The buzz I got off qualifying for Europe last year, and getting to a cup final in this one is justifiably enough reason for me to continue. The little glimpses of glory make the shot worthwhile.

Good man SligoBrewer , saved me writing that

Ferris_Bueller

Hows it going lads, fairly new to the Soccer forum and havnt read through this entire thread so maybe most things have been said but I'm going to throw in my two cents, I'm a Kildare County fan btw.

I havn't always supported the LoI, I didnt start until 2004 (would have been 12) but it didn't take long to get me hooked, after about 3 games I loved going down to Station Road on a Saturday night.
But it always has been a struggle to try and get people to come to the matchs with me on a regular basis, the general response you get is "Sure County/LoI are s**te, why would I go down there?" still to this day the opinion has stayed the same (gotten worse in some cases).

To be honest, I can see why people would not want to come down if they're comparing it to the EPL, there really is no comparison in the standard of football, facilities, media coverage, size of fanbases, sure if you can support Man Utd or Liverpool from the comfort of your own sitting room why would you go to Station Road to watch them play Mervue on a night where its lashing rain and freezing cold?

As SligoBrewer previously said "we're addicted", nothing can beat that feeling of your team snatching that vital win in the last minute (doesn't happen to me too often anymore!). Knowing that its your team and feeling involved with them is a feeling like no other, they genuinely appreciate your support. You get to experience the highs and lows with your club which makes it feel so much better than watching United win their 4th league title in a row down in the pub. These are my reasons for supporting the LoI and I'm sure plenty of others agree with me on this, however, the problem is getting non-LoI fans to see this and at least give it a try.

RustySpoon

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

But it always has been a struggle to try and get people to come to the matchs with me on a regular basis, the general response you get is "Sure County/LoI are s**te, why would I go down there?"

I have tried also and hear the same things, don't get there all the time but maybe 1 in 3 due to work etc. Every time I go I try to bring 1 or 2 new faces and a few are asking for results and showing an interest. One day the stabilisers might come off and they can make their own way to Newbridge.

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

......why would you go to Station Road to watch them play Mervue on a night where its lashing rain and freezing cold?

Oh for a home win

aidan24326

Des wrote: »

2. Better players stay in the game. I reckon about 90% of people all know a talented fella who went over to England at sixteen or seventeen, and arrived home at twenty two having "not made it", then working in factories or whatever, not playing football. If more players had the "Kevin Doyle" experience, I think the clubs here would benefit from this, and so would the players, and ultimately, the national team.
.

That's a very good point. While you can't blame any lad for trying his luck in the English pro game, the large majority of lads who go over there never make it. Some end up in the lower divisions but many don't make it at all and like you say they'll come back 3 or 4 years later disillusioned and either end up playing at a crappy Sunday morning level or maybe not at all. I'd expect a good number of those are lost to the game, certainly as far as LOI is concerned.

Finding a way to encourage more of these lads to stay at home would be a big help, and Kevin Doyle is a perfect example of how to learn your trade here and then take your chances across the water when you're better prepared. Unfortunately if the wages in the LOI aren't up to much (and the way things are headed they soon won't be) there isn't much incentive to stay here. Personally I think with the current level of attendances a full-time professional league in this country is not really viable. Semi-pro would be the way to go.

Ferris_Bueller

I can only speak on behalf of what I know down here in Kildare, but to me it seems like LoI clubs dont spot the talent at an early enough age? Theres a few players down here who are still in their teens from Newbridge and have been offered trials/chances to go across to England, but its as if Kildare County (maybe other teams in the league too) havn't spotted them yet.

In Dublin, often the big schoolboy clubs are the likes of St.Joeys, St.Kevins,Cherry Orchard and Crumlin etc. who don't compete in the league, so once the lads reach 16/17 they ship them over to England for money to reinvest in their clubs, then most of the time they wont make it and what Des and Aidan said above happens. But would this still happen if they play for say Rovers and Bohs at schoolboy level in place of Joeys and Kevins? Or would they stay with their respective clubs and play senior level for them?
IMHO a lot of the problems with football in this country come down to grassroot levels.

iregk

To be fair Ferris. LOI clubs don't have the scounting resources and budget that english clubs do so they can't go all over the country to watch leagues and players that may make it.

Of course the easy solution here would be to stick with the really big clubs and leagues but these are also the ones the english clubs go to as well so when a kid has the option of Chelsea and Shamrock Rovers on the table obviously Chelsea wins out. At the moment the LOI is surviving on players that didn't make it in the upper levels of the English game and even when we do get a good players that show class such as Doyle they are plucked straight away over the water.

The likes of Jason Byrne went over but came back. Gary Twigg I'm sure has a few monitoring him from the UK and I'd say Cretaro is another on the radar of some english clubs. The league looses one or two of these players and the standard drops off again.