competence course for first time licence

rrpc

Thanks Cavan Shooter, that clears up things perfectly. I had no doubt that was the case and certainly there's no issue (and shouldn't be) with organisations running courses for their members.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I - aged 12 - got suspended from school for asking what the difference between catholic and protestant was - I never got my answer so after my week in the long grass I asked again - another weeek in the long grass - plus a visit to my parent sby the Bishop - I asked him and got a clip round the ear - still haven't got an answer

Protestants are the ones who don't belt kids round the ear...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Protestants are the ones who don't belt kids round the ear...

True,they just Yell at the dog instead!:D:D

4gun

deekme wrote: »

Hi im in the middle of filling out my form for a new licence for a shotgun and want to make sure everything is in order ive looked through the threads but cant find the answer im looking for. Its in regards to the competence question.
Does anyone know where abouts in Kerry i could do such a course (competence) as i have never owned a gun i would to do this right first time?
thanks

knocknagoshel shooting grounds are doing a course for shotguns you should be able to get their number from a the phone book i think costs 35 euro

someone should have put an electric fence on this post:D

jwshooter

4gun wrote: »

knocknagoshel shooting grounds are doing a course for shotguns you should be able to get their number from a the phone book i think costs 35 euro

someone should have put an electric fence on this post:D

i often shot clays with cotter and walsh there ,sound men .

jwshooter

cavan shooter wrote: »

The NARGC run proficiency course for their members at a county level which includes safe handling of firearms used in hunting and it is aimed towards "hunting" , safety in the field and quarry recognition etc.

The NARGC is also advocating that local clubs give all new members a basic overview of firearm safety as a stop gap to do the proficiency course.

The Profociency course is aimed at insured members of the NARGC only and this was clearly stated at a recent county officers training course

I dont understand the original posters comment that the NARGC have won a contract, as was stated by others the proficiency course doesnt cover pistol, rifle shooting etc it is based on game shooting and for that purpose is very good. I believed the training courses envisaged for competency would be given by the representative bodies.

My advice to the OP contact your representative body.

its a grandfather course for those that dont have one . its better to have than not have.
it the uk there is a course where some with known experience takes on a newbie under there wing .
i was lucky i have always met the right people .

4gun

jwshooter wrote: »

i often shot clays with cotter and walsh there ,sound men .

I'm not big into clays, the only bit I did was at Country haven shooting in b'bunion if thats the walsh your on about

spickis dickis

Lads,
my shot gun licence permits me to fire only my gun.

Therefore , am I (theoretically) breaking the law if I fire an instructors weapon at an NARGC proficiency course. ?

rrpc

spickis dickis wrote: »

Lads,
my shot gun licence permits me to fire only my gun.

Therefore , am I (theoretically) breaking the law if I fire an instructors weapon at an NARGC proficiency course. ?

That depends on what way the course is set up. There are such things as authorisations in the firearms act that allows you use other firearms on a course like that.

Note the use of that word, 'weapon' implies intent to do something.

spickis dickis

fair point on the 'weapon' - sholud have used 'shotgun'.

In any case , the way I see it , only 'club' guns can be authorised.

This presents two issues:
A . The NARGC is not a 'club' in the meaning of the legislation.
B. Even if the NARGC is a club , how can non members legally do the course.

rrpc

spickis dickis wrote: »

fair point on the 'weapon' - sholud have used 'shotgun'.

In any case , the way I see it , only 'club' guns can be authorised.

This presents two issues:
A . The NARGC is not a 'club' in the meaning of the legislation.
B. Even if the NARGC is a club , how can non members legally do the course.

The use of the word 'club' is a misuse in relation to an authorisation. The legislation refers to a 'place that stands authorised', not just a club. People have started referring to it as a club authorisation when in fact it's much wider than that.

Also, the NARGC would not be running this in their offices, but at a shooting grounds somewhere which would presumably have such a mechanism in place.

Apart from the fact that the NARGC probably don't own any firearms themselves.

spickis dickis

OK. I take your point.

Does this mean that proficiency courses need to be run at ' professionally run shooting grounds , unlike a regional game council running the course at in the local woods to which they have permission but is not a professionally run shooting ground?
The issue of using someones elses shotgun , like all things , will only become an issue when someone gets hurt - and when it turns out that the person responsible was not licenced to hold the gun and has committed a criminal offence .
The question is : does someone have to go to jail before this is clarified?

rrpc

spickis dickis wrote: »

OK. I take your point.

Does this mean that proficiency courses need to be run at ' professionally run shooting grounds , unlike a regional game council running the course at in the local woods to which they have permission but is not a professionally run shooting ground?

No of course not. What does professionally run mean in this context? All these clubs and many of the grounds are run by volunteers.

The issue of using someones elses shotgun , like all things , will only become an issue when someone gets hurt - and when it turns out that the person responsible was not licenced to hold the gun and has committed a criminal offence .

If they are not licensed or authorised and if there is a criminal offence committed. That's not a given the way you seem to think it is.

The question is : does someone have to go to jail before this is clarified?

I thought I had clarified it. What bit are you still having difficulty with?

spickis dickis

rrpc , i appreciate your frustration and effort taken responding to me.

Look at this scenario:
A regional game council run a proficiency course.
Members of the RGC running the course i.e. setting up traps , booking the classroom premises etc are volunteers .
The course instructor is the NARGC safety officer.
The grounds on which the practical element of the course is held is a green field donated by a local farmer for the day , with no houses nearby .
The RGC have paid their 13 euro to the NARGC compensation fund officer for insurance for the day.
Both NARGC and NON NARGC members attend the course. Some do not have a shotgun certificate and want a 'proficiency cert' to apply for a shotgun licence.
All couse participants fire the instructors shotgun as part of the course .
Is any law being broken here?

rrpc

spickis dickis wrote: »

rrpc , i appreciate your frustration and effort taken responding to me.

Look at this scenario:
A regional game council run a proficiency course.
Members of the RGC running the course i.e. setting up traps , booking the classroom premises etc are volunteers .
The course instructor is the NARGC safety officer.
The grounds on which the practical element of the course is held is a green field donated by a local farmer for the day , with no houses nearby .
The RGC have paid their 13 euro to the NARGC compensation fund officer for insurance for the day.
Both NARGC and NON NARGC members attend the course. Some do not have a shotgun certificate and want a 'proficiency cert' to apply for a shotgun licence.
All couse participants fire the instructors shotgun as part of the course .
Is any law being broken here?

I don't know.

Not being difficult, but I'm not the one to ask. The same as you asking someone in a RGC in Kerry is it OK for a new member of Rathdrum Rifle and Pistol Club to shoot on the range with another members rifle.

How would they know?

But I would

Do you see my point?

spickis dickis

Your right.

Unfortunately the NARGC are not clear on this . Maybe they'll see this thread.

Again , appreciate you taking time to reply .

rrpc

spickis dickis wrote: »

Your right.

Unfortunately the NARGC are not clear on this . Maybe they'll see this thread.

Again , appreciate you taking time to reply .

Have you asked them the questions you've asked here? More importantly have you asked the RGC who are hosting the course?

In any event, the question won't be cleared up until they answer it, but in my experience none of these courses are run without the proper authorisations.

bunny shooter

SD is probably looking to stir the proverbial and wants an answer from here so he can go to the NARGC then

Sparks

Jaysus BS, if we crucified everyone we thought might be doing that, we'd need more trees. And heck, you'd have been on one of them years back!

Cass

Someone correct me if i get any of this wrong.

The Gardai demand that a first time applicant does a competency course to verify they can safely handle and use a firearm.
The NARGC take it upon themselves to provide his service.
As they are first time applicants they have no firearm of their own.
The NARGC know this so the instructor must have a firearm and allow the first timers to use this.
The insurance for others to use his firearm must be covered by the NARGC.
The fact that others must use the instructors gun must be known by the Gardai and whether it is or is not allowed what other option is there for people to handle a firearm and get passed.

A couple of other things, just for fun.

Why not use a registered clay range with proper facilities.
The NARGC as a body and not a club have no range.
One half day or a few hours, whatever the course lasts and thats it. No follow up. Its like giving a learner driver 1 lesson and then giving him the keys to a car and sending him of into the world.
If anyone says the above point is silly as most lads doing the course will have shot a gun before and that this is just red tape that needs cutting then ask yourself why do the course. Would notification from an experienced shooter not suffice in lieu of the course.

I don't know if thats all the questions or all the answers but its seems a make shift solution to a needless problem.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus BS, if we crucified everyone we thought might be doing that, we'd need more trees. And heck, you'd have been on one of them years back!

Reckon there's still a tree with my name on it

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile

cavan shooter

ezridax,

Your right as such, but affiliated clubs of the NARGC have got clay shooting grounds, I can only speak for cavan where the practical aspect is held at Mount Nugent shooting grounds, and the recent safety officers course was held at Streete clay grounds. BTW one must be insured members of the NARGC to do the course and its aimed at NARGC members.

The course covers safe handling of a firearm (shotgun) and some of the photos of accidents which occcur are pretty graphic and the scenarios discussed thought provoking.

Is it red tape and mindless drivle, that accusation can be levelled at any course an adult or experienced person sits, I am involved in adult education and CPD, and the been there done that mentality is always at the fore, but if your open minded and come out of it with 2 or 3 bits of information that makes you think and carry a gun a litttle differently or whatever, its worth it. Even the basics of taking a gun from a slip some people cant do safely.

Things are changing at ground level in clubs, some NARGC clubs have a mandatory safety briefing for new members, some clubs are even suggesting that new members go out with experienced guys, and membership of clubs are normally through refferal of some kind so guys are known and for the first time this year I heard someone ask the question "Is he safe, has he cop on" when a guy wanted to join. I have been invlved with clubs 22 years and thatw as a head turner

Even fox drives are starting with a safety briefing and nearly everyone wears the "NARGC safety Hat" so I think slowly but surely people are becoming more safety aware. Unfortunately we probabally will see a flurry of "Competency/proficiency" courses and my advise stick to your representative body or discipline at least that course will have national backing. It makes sense, I dont shoot pistols so why would I do a competency course in pistols.

foxshooter243

cavan shooter wrote: »

ezridax,

Your right as such, but affiliated clubs of the NARGC have got clay shooting grounds, I can only speak for cavan where the practical aspect is held at Mount Nugent shooting grounds, and the recent safety officers course was held at Streete clay grounds. BTW one must be insured members of the NARGC to do the course and its aimed at NARGC members.

The course covers safe handling of a firearm (shotgun) and some of the photos of accidents which occcur are pretty graphic and the scenarios discussed thought provoking.

Is it red tape and mindless drivle, that accusation can be levelled at any course an adult or experienced person sits, I am involved in adult education and CPD, and the been there done that mentality is always at the fore, but if your open minded and come out of it with 2 or 3 bits of information that makes you think and carry a gun a litttle differently or whatever, its worth it. Even the basics of taking a gun from a slip some people cant do safely.

Things are changing at ground level in clubs, some NARGC clubs have a mandatory safety briefing for new members, some clubs are even suggesting that new members go out with experienced guys, and membership of clubs are normally through refferal of some kind so guys are known and for the first time this year I heard someone ask the question "Is he safe, has he cop on" when a guy wanted to join. I have been invlved with clubs 22 years and thatw as a head turner

Even fox drives are starting with a safety briefing and nearly everyone wears the "NARGC safety Hat" so I think slowly but surely people are becoming more safety aware. Unfortunately we probabally will see a flurry of "Competency/proficiency" courses and my advise stick to your representative body or discipline at least that course will have national backing. It makes sense, I dont shoot pistols so why would I do a competency course in pistols.

Just to add that Nargc hold these proficiency courses in Donegal in one of two club grounds-these grounds are club owned, with full clay layouts and facilities as per CS s post......as to the earlier poster talking about NARGC
holding these safety seminars in a field!..donated by a farmer...been at plenty of these seminars to help out..never been at one in a field donated by a friendly farmer..I think tricky dicky..or spickis dickis ..may be confused:rolleyes:

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

........... BTW one must be insured members of the NARGC to do the course and its aimed at NARGC members.

Then someone needs to tell the Gardai. Was at my local station Monday or Tuesday. A young lad wanted to license his father's gun rather than see it surrendered. The Garda asked the usual questions (first time, competency course, etc). When the young lad said he never licensed a firearm before and had no course done the Garda said i'll organise one for you through the NARGC. Young lad:"i'm not a member", Garda: "It doesn't matter".

The course covers safe handling of a firearm (shotgun) and some of the photos of accidents which occcur are pretty graphic and the scenarios discussed thought provoking.

I agree fully with the idea of the courses. Safety is paramount.

Is it red tape and mindless drivle, that accusation can be levelled at any course an adult or experienced person sits,

Maybe its my reading of the above but i don't fully follow your line of thought. If it was directed at me then let me come back by saying i'm not accusing anyone directly. I'm a member of the NARGC and i use them only because they are the first organisation to come forward with a remedy to this competency course fiasco.

Things are changing at ground level in clubs, some NARGC clubs have a mandatory safety briefing for new members, some clubs are even suggesting that new members go out with experienced guys, and membership of clubs are normally through refferal of some kind so guys are known and for the first time this year I heard someone ask the question "Is he safe, has he cop on" when a guy wanted to join. I have been invlved with clubs 22 years and that was a head turner

Thats my job in my game club. I hold a safety briefing for new members (when they join) and existing members before the start of each season. We have a sign in sheet that a new member must have signed by another member and witnessed by a second to say he has been out 3 times with an experienced member of the club and behaved in a safe and appropriate manner. When this is done they are allowed shoot themselves. This all tallies in with extensive safety procedures already in action.

I want to say again i am not criticising the idea behind the safety courses, more the way it is being inacted. If only NARGC members can attend NARGC courses then other ranges with proper facilities should be given the nod to allow those not associated with NARGC or other bodies to still do a course.

BornToKill

ezridax wrote: »

When this is done they are allowed shoot themselves.

Does your club find any difficulty in attracting new members?
That's one hell of an initiation rite you have.

rrpc

ezridax wrote: »

Then someone needs to tell the Gardai. Was at my local station Monday or Tuesday. A young lad wanted to license his father's gun rather than see it surrendered. The Garda asked the usual questions (first time, competency course, etc). When the young lad said he never licensed a firearm before and had no course done the Garda said i'll organise one for you through the NARGC. Young lad:"i'm not a member", Garda: "It doesn't matter".

I'd give the Garda a thumbs up for that. It's not often you hear of Gardai helping people get their licences and actually behaving in a customer-centric way.

Maybe its my reading of the above but i don't fully follow your line of thought. If it was directed at me then let me come back by saying i'm not accusing anyone directly. I'm a member of the NARGC and i use them only because they are the first organisation to come forward with a remedy to this competency course fiasco.

Every club or organisation has their own course, but the guidance at the moment is that as you have held a licence for a number of years you are deemed competent. That advice was on the NARGC website as well.

I want to say again i am not criticising the idea behind the safety courses, more the way it is being inacted. If only NARGC members can attend NARGC courses then other ranges with proper facilities should be given the nod to allow those not associated with NARGC or other bodies to still do a course.

That is the case as far as I know, competence/induction courses are available to pretty much all the clubs/associations I know. I always believe that it's best dealt with at club level as that's the pointy end for the new shooter. I don't think the Gardai are specifying any particular course above another, I'd say it's just that they know of the NARGC one. If the same young lad was joining our club, I doubt the Garda would have had a problem with him doing a course in the club.

rrpc

BornToKill wrote: »

Does your club find any difficulty in attracting new members?
That's one hell of an initiation rite you have.

I was going to be the smartass but resisted

"You're accepted..." BANG, "next"

BornToKill

rrpc wrote: »

I was going to be the smartass but resisted

It's me then - I just have no willpower! Sorry!

Cass

BornToKill wrote: »

Does your club find any difficulty in attracting new members?

No problems. We have a set number of members. The only way to join is to take the place of someone that leaves. We have a list of people that want to join and as a member leaves the name at the top of the lists gets approved at a general meeting. Maybe down the road we will expand as the list of mnames waiting is getting longer, but for the moment we are keeping the numbers small and managable.

The initiation is not all that harsh. We nearly always go out in groups. If questioned later to complaints that may be lodged i can show that they were not given membership and allowed run around. Its a CYA situation. Three outings and its done. Thats one good weekend or two seperate weekends.

rrpc

Whoooosh

Come on ezridax at least acknowledge the joke