Is it unpatriotic to wear a poppy ?

philologos

Poccington wrote: »

The fact most Irish people don't give two flying ****s about it, has nothing to do with Rememberance Day or July 11th and a whole lot more to do with a lack of national pride.

What happens on July 11th? Just curious.

philologos

Dáibhí wrote: »

If the poppy wearers were commemorating those British who fought for British freedom from an occupying force you might have a genuine comparison. They were not. On the contrary, poppy wearers are honouring people who fought for the largest imperial power in world history, a power which denied independence to countless peoples across the world. Why do all poppy advocates overlook this and resent when it is brought up? This British political subjugation of peoples across the world, let everybody here be very clear about, is what poppy wearers are glorifying today. This is the heritage which they wish to "honour".

Despite the fact it's been already demonstrated that all who have fallen at war, those who serve with the Irish Defence Forces, and those who work for our security and well being here in Ireland.

How is that British nationalism?

Dáibhí wrote: »

One last, related, point, it is astonishing how all the poppy brigade overlook the anti-Catholicism within the British forces during World War One. The revisionism and romanticisation of Irish involvement on the British side is about as ahistorical as it comes.

How do we?

If you are to claim that I support anti-Catholicism by wearing the poppy you're having a laugh considering all the Irish Catholics who died at war and all the Catholics in Britain who wear the poppy.

Most of the anti-Catholicism I've seen in the last while has been on these boards!

Poccington

Jakkass wrote: »

What happens on July 11th? Just curious.

Their is a ceremony held in the Royal Kilmainham Hospital. There is a church service, followed by a military Guard of Honour during which the President lays a wreath, Reveille is then played, followed by the raising of the National Flag and the playing of the National Anthem.

It is attended by the President, Taoiseach, Members of Governemnt, Members of the Oireachtas, The Council of State, Diplomatic Corps, The Judiciary, relatives of the 1916 leaders, relatives of Irish troops that have died Overseas, Nothern Ireland representatives, senior representatives of the Jewish and Islamic faith, serving and former DF personnel as well as the general public.

Anyone that has attended it would tell you it's a wonderful and sombre occasion, it's a shame that it's not recognised by most of Ireland.

IIMII

Jakkass wrote: »

Despite the fact it's been already demonstrated that all who have fallen at war, those who serve with the Irish Defence Forces, and those who work for our security and well being here in Ireland.

How is that British nationalism?

Does that include the soldiers that fought AGAINST the British army?

AidySevenfold

TheCandystripes wrote: »

why would an irish person wear one of those poppys?(altho having said that i cant understand why irish support british football teams but maby its just me)

you might need a british team to support...hehe

but in fairness it wud be bad to see Derry go, the Derry-Harps derby is a highlight of Irish football :cool:

i seen alot of irish wearing it, fahey, duff, dunne etc

johnny_doyle

Dáibhí wrote: »

Once again the poppy advocates have their collective heads firmly and irretrievably placed in the sand of British nationalism: these poppy "celebrations" of 11 November are very much a British and, to a much lesser extent, British Commonwealth event, as my earlier examination of poppy propaganda on this issue confirms:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62799812&postcount=810

in the URL for the French President in your previous post, Prince Charles isn't wearing a Royal British Legion poppy. Looks like it might be a Canadian poppy. The Blue Cornflowers (Le Bleuet de France aka the French poppy) being worn are the French symbol of remembrance.

At the ceremony accompanying the photo you've pointed to (a French event rather than a British one) :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/1112/1226408552387.html

"On the eve of his 60th birthday, Prince Charles, accompanied by Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, sported a chestful of medals. France's first lady, Carla Bruni Sarkozy, flashed her supermodel smile, then grew tearful as President Nicolas Sarkozy thanked 17 nations, including Ireland, for fighting with France in the Great War."

http://www.bleuetdefrance.fr/index.php


did you go to the remembrance service in Rathvilly today?

LordSutch

Dáibhí wrote: »

Once again the poppy advocates have their collective heads firmly and irretrievably placed in the sand of British nationalism: these poppy "celebrations" of 11 November are very much a British and, to a much lesser extent, British Commonwealth event, as my earlier examination of poppy propaganda on this issue confirms:

I was at an Armistice (Poppy day) service in south Dublin yesterday, the two minutes silence was observed, the last post was played by a lone buglar, we acknowlegded the sacrifice made by so many, and the special remembrance day sermon was about the fact that "nobody really wins wars" and that death & destruction are absolute. As the church emptied following the service it became clear that nearly everybody was wearing a poppy, (No big deal to me really), seeing as I have witnessed this annual event in Dublin on & off for decades, but just to point out to some posters here, that people in Ireland do indeed wear poppies on/or around the first two weeks of November, and we will continue to do so.

(The last WWII veteran from this church died last June, so this year was the first year ever that there where no survivors from WWI or WWII present at the service). but we will still continue to remember them every year, on/or around the Sunday closest to the Armistice.

twinytwo

Cali Handsome Opium wrote: »

Personally I think its ok to wear one.

I buy one every year, but thats just me - I could care less what other people think.

But ya know, there are some extremely narrow minded people in this country who refuse to let go of the past - fvck you I say, your yesterdays man.

so america should forget and forgive for 9/11?...Im sorry if i cant get over mass muder over an 800 year period where no one was ever held accountable for anything

Fratton Fred

Why is there a number of people in this country whose whole lives revolve around examining everything that goes on the in the UK and finding fault with it.

If a country chooses to commemorate it's war dead, what is wrong with that?

As I have said before, which no one has replied to, why is the Remembrance day services in the UK a shameful show of British Nationalism, hijacked by the poppy fascists, yet remembering 1916 isn't?

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why is there a number of people in this country whose whole lives revolve around examining everything that goes on the in the UK and finding fault with it.

I don't really mind what goes on in the UK. I'd expect the British to have rememberance days, every country does. I think the issue is why Irish people are expected to have any interest in it, particularly as we have had a less than heroic experience of the British army here. It's natural that the British army would be seen differently in Britain - it's their army.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I have said before, which no one has replied to, why is the Remembrance day services in the UK a shameful show of British Nationalism, hijacked by the poppy fascists, yet remembering 1916 isn't?

I don't think lily wearers expect British people to have an affinity with dead Irish soldiers that fought for Irish freedom against their (British) army.

Nobody gets hassled to wear a lily, the same can't be said across the water when it comes to poppies.

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

Considering 700,000 Irish people are still forced to live under British rule in Ireland today that is quite rich. The only reason the Malvinas remain under British rule is because Britain won the war. It is nothing more than that. If Britain truly cared for democracy it would be still ruling Hong Kong for, as British people were told at the time (1997), a huge majority of the population of Hong Kong wished to remain under British rule. It isn't ruling Hong Kong because China is substantially more powerful than Britain. It has nothing to do with face-saving treaties: it is simple military power.

No one is forcing them i believe, as far as i am aware, they are free to move, or, when the time is right, free to vote for unification.

Again, I would like to point out that it should be either Las Malvinas or The Falklands. The Malvinas is either bad English or bad Spanish, or maybe just a bad attempt at a wind up.

Dáibhí wrote: »

By the people who lambasted Jon Snow for refusing to wear a poppy, by the people who are boycotting that publican in Kent who refuses to sell poppies, by the people who condemn Dara Ó Bríain for refusing to wear a poppy.... - advocates of "poppy fascism" who, as a result of their nationalistically-minded zealousness, are generally known as British nationalists.

My Brother In Law runs a pub in Cavan, very close to the border with Northern Ireland. I believe the area is known as "Bandit Country". He has live music in there two nights a week and they always play the national anthem at the end of the night.

if an Englishman took over the pub and banned the playing of the national anthem, would it be fascism if the locals refused to go there anymore?

I haven't seen anyone condemn Dara O'Briain for not wearing a poppy, in fact, I would suggest he would be a bit pissed off for being used as a political pawn like this, being married to an English women and living in England like he does.

Reading through the last few pages of this thread, there appears to be plenty of fascism on display, but it isn't in the pro poppy in posts.

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

if an Englishman took over the pub and banned the playing of the national anthem, would it be fascism if the locals refused to go there anymore?

It wouldn't make the national media though. They are on the look-out for these stories over there

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone condemn Dara O'Briain for not wearing a poppy, in fact, I would suggest he would be a bit pissed off for being used as a political pawn like this, being married to an English women and living in England like he does.

I'd say he is pissed off. He isn't English, why should he be expected to wear it. I doubt English people would be expected to wear a German flower commemorating German war dead (if there is one) if they were appearing on German television

nia87

Wasn't it possible to buy a green poppy a while ago? probably was made of plastic but I'm sure I've seen one...

IIMII

nia87 wrote: »

Wasn't it possible to buy a green poppy a while ago? probably was made of plastic but I'm sure I've seen one...

Never heard of that.

LordSutch

IIMII wrote: »

He isn't English, why should he be expected to wear it. I doubt English people would be expected to wear a German flower commemorating German war dead (if there is one) if they were appearing on German television

Dara has the right to choose whether he wears a Poppy or not, as does John Snow (who is not Irish).

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

Nobody gets hassled to wear a lily, the same can't be said across the water when it comes to poppies.

No one in Ireland was forced to fight against anyone. in England (For starters) there was conscription in both world wars. it is a very very different thing remembering people who were forced to fight, than remembering those who chose to fight.

To be honest though, I have never heard of anyone being hassled for not wearing a Poppy. Jon Snow wrote an article about poppy Fascism and that has become the benchmark by which the UK is measured. As has been pointed out, Dara O'Briain did not wear one on his numerous appearances on TV this week and I haven't seen anything written about him.

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

It wouldn't make the national media though. They are on the look-out for these stories over there

hmm, I'm not so sure about that.

IIMII wrote: »

I'd say he is pissed off. He isn't English, why should he be expected to wear it. I doubt English people would be expected to wear a German flower commemorating German war dead (if there is one) if they were appearing on German television

He wasn't expected to wear one, that is the bloody point.

There is no issue here, yet one has been created to throw more weight into the Poppy Fascism argument.

Dáibhí

fordprefect wrote: »

I think its more unpatriotic to ignore the Irish people that have given their lives in foreign armies than it is to wear a poppy.

Foreign armies or just one particular foreign army?

Ooops. Isn't that the very point of Britain's poppy: it's a British celebration for people who fought with Britain. Very narrow, in other words. It is not designed to honour the countless Irish who have fought for the French, Spanish etc etc.

LordSutch

So Dáibhí, what is your ongoing gripe with Britain & the British? and whats your gripe with remembering those tens of thousands of Irish men who faught against Germany in two World Wars?

Are you just Anti British or Pro Nazi, or something?

mirwillbeback

A poppy? A poppy? Damn this dyslexia, there was me with a picture of the Andrex puppy on my top all weekend.

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No one in Ireland was forced to fight against anyone.

That isn't true. The British were never going to leave by being asked.

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

Foreign armies or just one particular foreign army?

Ooops. Isn't that the very point of Britain's poppy: it's a British celebration for people who fought with Britain. Very narrow, in other words. It is not designed to honour the countless Irish who have fought for the French, Spanish etc etc.

unlike the unbiased memorials at places like Kilmichael then.

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

That isn't true. The British were never going to leave by being asked.

There was no conscription in Ireland.

IIMII

Camelot wrote: »

Are you just Anti British or Pro Nazi, or something?

You think Anti British = Pro Nazi, or Anti Nazi = Pro British? :rolleyes:

I always found British aspirations for world dominence very nazi-esque, so maybe your equation needs tweaking.

Did you ever stop to think that it isn't the British per se, maybe Irish people are just not that into your army?

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There was no conscription in Ireland.

But did we have a choice other than to fight? The British presence in Ireland was maintained by a large garrison.

If you wanted to end the British presence, you had to shift the army. There was no option but to fight, and unlike your British soldiers that war was fought on our own turf and on our streets, not on foreign fields were you could be indifferent to the hardship of civilians.

But we should be thankful you were unable to force us to fight in your army, even if you made us fight against your army.

Shane-1

Of course it is unpatriotic to wear the poppy, the emblem not just remembers those British military personnel that lost their lives in the world wars but also commemorates those who fought in Ireland in 1916 and the War of Independence, and also those who died during the troubles up north, its clearly unpatriotic.

philologos

Shane-1 wrote: »

Of course it is unpatriotic to wear the poppy, the emblem not just remembers those British military personnel that lost their lives in the world wars but also commemorates those who fought in Ireland in 1916 and the War of Independence, and also those who died during the troubles up north, its clearly unpatriotic.

It commemorates all war fallen. So how on earth is that unpatriotic?

We need at least one day in the year when we can sit back and think about wars past, the peace we have now, to give thanks for our security, and to think about what progresses we've made diplomatically as human beings.

IIMII

Jakkass wrote: »

We need at least one day in the year when we can sit back and think about wars past

It achieves that ok

MrMicra

Jakkass wrote: »

It commemorates all war fallen. So how on earth is that unpatriotic?

We need at least one day in the year when we can sit back and think about wars past, the peace we have now, to give thanks for our security, and to think about what progresses we've made diplomatically as human beings.

That day is July 11 the national day of commemoration for all Irish soldiers (regardless of army) who have fought in wars or with the UN. Poppy day commemorates only those who served in British empire (or former British empire) forces ; to state otherwise is incorrect as has been demonstrated repeatedly.

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

But did we have a choice other than to fight? The British presence in Ireland was maintained by a large garrison.

If you wanted to end the British presence, you had to shift the army. There was no option but to fight, and unlike your British soldiers that war was fought on our own turf and on our streets, not on foreign fields were you could be indifferent to the hardship of civilians.

But we should be thankful you were unable to force us to fight in your army, even if you made us fight against your army.

We are having different conversations here.

I don't have a problem with Irish people who do not wish to wear a Poppy. I do have a problem with people who accuse the British war commemorations of being narrow minded nationalism. A Poppy means something entirely different to British people and people should respect that.

If an Irish person appearing on British TV chooses not to wear a poppy, fine, if a publican chooses not to wear a Poppy, that too is fine with me. As I have no problem with people boycotting a pub that refuses to sell Poppies.

gurramok

Jakkass wrote: »

It commemorates all war fallen. So how on earth is that unpatriotic?

We need at least one day in the year when we can sit back and think about wars past, the peace we have now, to give thanks for our security, and to think about what progresses we've made diplomatically as human beings.

It commemorates all British war fallen which have nothing to do with Ireland except those that took the Queens oath while as 'Irishmen'.

I rather remember Irish fallen soldiers who fought for our hard won freedom rather than those of an imperialist power.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

It commemorates all British war fallen which have nothing to do with Ireland except those that took the Queens oath while as 'Irishmen'.

I rather remember Irish fallen soldiers who fought for our hard won freedom rather than those of an imperialist power.

Just because a country is an "Imperialist Power" it does not mean all its wars are imperialist wars.

MrMicra

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Just because a country is an "Imperialist Power" it does not mean all its wars are imperialist wars.

Even if the above were correct it would not alter the fact that Jakkass is incorrect to state that the poppy is a commemoration of all fallen soldiers or even of all fallen Irish soldiers.

philologos

gurramok wrote: »

It commemorates all British war fallen which have nothing to do with Ireland except those that took the Queens oath while as 'Irishmen'.

I rather remember Irish fallen soldiers who fought for our hard won freedom rather than those of an imperialist power.

gurramok: With all due respect, how would you know considering that you haven't been a part of any Remembrance Day / Remembrance Sunday events?

MrMicra wrote: »

That day is July 11 the national day of commemoration for all Irish soldiers (regardless of army) who have fought in wars or with the UN. Poppy day commemorates only those who served in British empire (or former British empire) forces ; to state otherwise is incorrect as has been demonstrated repeatedly.

Same question to you.

MrMicra

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A Poppy means something entirely different to British people and people should respect that.

It is not necessary for Irish people in Ireland to respect the commemoration of foreign soldiers in a foreign country. I would suggest however that the poppy celebration appears to be a maudlin celebration of victimhood and an attempt to deny the historical reality of Britain's role in the world. Your own attitude to the genocide of the Tasmanian aborigines is a clear example of the hysteria generated by 'Treaty of Versailles' day.

We are different from (and better than) the English. I regard our tolerance and forbearance in this matter as a shining example of what makes the Irish so wonderful. How many peoples would tolerate a commemoration service for their enemies being held in their country at all?

That said wearing a poppy in Ireland to remember one's family and perhaps to celebrate one's own distinctive Irish tradition is certainly more morally acceptable that the vulgar celebration of the British empire that we see from the Sassenach.

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I have no problem with people boycotting a pub that refuses to sell Poppies.

But making a show of them in the national media? To march with your feet is ok, but to make a national show of her?

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

But making a show of them in the national media? To march with your feet is ok, but to make a national show of her?

It's the Sun, what do you expect.

philologos

MrMicra wrote: »

It is not necessary for Irish people in Ireland to respect the commemoration of foreign soldiers in a foreign country. I would suggest however that the poppy celebration appears to be a maudlin celebration of victimhood and an attempt to deny the historical reality of Britain's role in the world. Your own attitude to the genocide of the Tasmanian aborigines is a clear example of the hysteria generated by 'Treaty of Versailles' day.

It's not necessary, but many of us want to reflect on past wars on November 11th.

Many of us do not see Remembrance Day as a glorification of British imperialism.

MrMicra wrote: »

We are different from (and better than) the English. I regard our tolerance and forbearance in this matter as a shining example of what makes the Irish so wonderful. How many peoples would tolerate a commemoration service for their enemies being held in their country at all? I have been rather shocked to see that their a number of Irish protestants who are virtually 5th columnists where the UK is concerned.

*sigh* We've already been through this.

I'm Irish, I like this country, I just happen to commemorate the wardead on November 11th.

Fratton Fred

MrMicra wrote: »

It is not necessary for Irish people in Ireland to respect the commemoration of foreign soldiers in a foreign country. I would suggest however that the poppy celebration appears to be a maudlin celebration of victimhood and an attempt to deny the historical reality of Britain's role in the world. Your own attitude to the genocide of the Tasmanian aborigines is a clear example of the hysteria generated by 'Treaty of Versailles' day.

We are different from (and better than) the English. I regard our tolerance and forbearance in this matter as a shining example of what makes the Irish so wonderful. How many peoples would tolerate a commemoration service for their enemies being held in their country at all?

That said wearing a poppy in Ireland to remember one's family and perhaps to celebrate one's own distinctive Irish tradition is certainly more morally acceptable that the vulgar celebration of the British empire that we see from the Sassenach.

What a wonderful Green tinted world you live in, Paddy.;)

LordSutch

MrMicra wrote: »

That day is July 11 the national day of commemoration for all Irish soldiers ......(

11th of July? whats that then?

The Armistice was signed on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month, and that is the day of Remembrance, always has been (since 1921) always will be ...................

Dáibhí

Camelot wrote: »

Are you just Anti British or Pro Nazi, or something?

This, sadly, is about the level of rationality and intelligence that I would now expect from those who wish to ram the British poppy down our throats as an "Irish" symbol and place those who died for the British Empire, the largest and most extreme empire in recorded history, up there with those who died for the freedom of this small country from that régime.

Seriously insulting stuff.

Dáibhí

PS: The way you are talking, Camelot, you wouldn't think that your seemingly heroic Britain began the 20th century by imprisoning hundreds of thousands of women and children in concentration camps in South Africa and presiding over the deaths of tens of thousands of them.

Only in the nether regions of the British tabloid press and their readers, the Tory party and the BNP does the British Empire emerge as a shining light of moral superiority in world history. The lack of education on this thread when it comes to British imperial history is depressing.

the_syco

I find it more offensive for republicans to support the english football teams, than anyone supporting a charity that supports soldiers from the past wars.

philologos

Dáibhí: If Remembrance Day was a day to glorify the British Army, then perhaps that might be my thinking, or Camelots thinking (correct me if I am wrong).

Personally I regard war as a tragedy and a failing of human nature, it is something we should reflect and think on more regularly so that other such tragedies do not happen again.

gurramok

Jakkass wrote: »

gurramok: With all due respect, how would you know considering that you haven't been a part of any Remembrance Day / Remembrance Sunday events?

The poppy which is British is a symbol used in the commemorations, you missed that bit, where it funds modern British soldiers including those who committed atrocities in NI.
As you might have glanced over my posts before, i have nothing against remembering soldiers from all nations in all the wars, just don't expect Irish people to partake in the British tradition of poppy wearing unless of course those shackles are removed from British hands and internationalised.

Daíth&#237 wrote:

This, sadly, is about the level of rationality and intelligence that I would now expect from those who wish to ram the British poppy down our throats as an "Irish" symbol and place those who died for the British Empire, the largest and most extreme empire in recorded history, up there with those who died for the freedom of this small country from that régime.

Seriously insulting stuff.

Daíthí, from the Politics forum, Camelot is a self proclaimed Irish Unionist so its good that he shares his views here so we can engage in these type of discussions to hear the other side

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

This, sadly, is about the level of rationality and intelligence that I would now expect from those who wish to ram the British poppy down our throats as an "Irish" symbol and place those who died for the British Empire, the largest and most extreme empire in recorded history, up there with those who died for the freedom of this small country from that régime.

Seriously insulting stuff.

The British empire was a small somewhat benevolent empire compared to anything that has come out of Rome. Far more atrocities were carried out in the name of the Pope than were ever carried out in the name of the British Monarch.

I think the Spanish and Portugese would also have a claim there as well, maybe even the French.

Still, I bet they don't preach that in An Phoblacht.

There is also the small matter of the Irish being involved in all of them up until relatively recently.

Rondolfus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A Poppy means something entirely different to British people and people should respect that.

Thats exaclty it. I have never had an issue with British people wearing a poppy or showing pride in their country. That is normal. However, the question is whether it is unpatriotic for an Irish person to wear one. Frankly i believe it is because, as you mentioned, it means something entirely different to most Irish people than it does to British people.


Just as no person on this Board is going to convince you that the British army are not a force that should be celebrated. nobody is going to convince me that they are a force that should be.

Sometimes its difficult for British people to understand that Irish people like me feel absolutely no bond with Britain at all. In fact its quite the opposite. The sooner that people respect these differences the sooner we can move on from stupid threads like this.

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's the Sun, what do you expect.

That's the poppy fascism people are referring to

Aidric

I find this whole poppy argument nauseating.

philologos

gurramok wrote: »

The poppy which is British is a symbol used in the commemorations, you missed that bit, where it funds modern British soldiers including those who committed atrocities in NI.
As you might have glanced over my posts before, i have nothing against remembering soldiers from all nations in all the wars, just don't expect Irish people to partake in the British tradition of poppy wearing unless of course those shackles are removed from British hands and internationalised.

The symbol's Canadian!

Well I've explained my reason behind wearing it I guess.

gurramok wrote: »

Daíthí, from the Politics forum, Camelot is a self proclaimed Irish Unionist so its good that he shares his views here so we can engage in these type of discussions to hear the other side

By Unionist in the respect that he supports Northern Ireland deciding for themselves, or Unionist in wanting all of Ireland to come back? I'd be interested in hearing Camelot on this one actually.