Is it unpatriotic to wear a poppy ?

MrMicra

Camelot wrote: »

11th of July? whats that then?

The Armistice was signed on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month, and that is the day of Remembrance, always has been (since 1921) always will be ...................

It is the national day of commemoration.

MrMicra

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What a wonderful Green tinted world you live in, Paddy.;)

Still you're here and I'm not there.

MrMicra

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm Irish, I like this country, I just happen to commemorate the wardead on November 11th.

My apologies Jakkass I was talking about another poster and I have amended the offensive posting. I was not referring to you as a 5th columnist; I meant someone else.

I respect your celebration of a distinctive and valued Irish tradition.

AnimalRights

Thread is too long to read thru and by the time I would another dozen Brits could be blown up in the 'Ghan, I say no.
They need to look after their own country instead of invading other countries and seriously who believes Brown's statement that they are in the 'Ghan to protect Brits at home.
I was born in Hackney btw.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jakkass wrote: »

It commemorates all war fallen. So how on earth is that unpatriotic?

This kind of misinformation is annoying. It does not commemorate all war fallen, it commemorates and funds the fallen and injured of the British Armed Forces.

Fratton Fred

Rondolfus wrote: »

Sometimes its difficult for British people to understand that Irish people like me feel absolutely no bond with Britain at all. In fact its quite the opposite. The sooner that people respect these differences the sooner we can move on from stupid threads like this.

I have no difficulty in that at all, I would counter that as well and say that some Irish people have difficulty in recognising that it is not about British Nationalism, it is about remembering a disgusting amount of people that died mainly in two world wars, the vast majority of whom were not professional soldiers and signed up because they were conscripted.

Dáibhí

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This kind of misinformation is annoying. It does not commemorate all war fallen, it commemorates and funds the fallen and injured of the British Armed Forces.

+ 1. It seems this basic, well referenced fact really has to be said ad nauseum on this thread to the proponents of the British poppy who are clearly intentionally propagating this myth of the British poppy being an international symbol of commemoration. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

That's the poppy fascism people are referring to

The average Sun reader is more concerned about the size of the breasts on page three than they are about poppies.

Rondolfus

the_syco wrote: »

I find it more offensive for republicans to support the english football teams, than anyone supporting a charity that supports soldiers from the past wars.

"English football" teams are international franchises now. Most of the top clubs are owned by non-brits, and most of the players in the top teams are non-brits. Essentially thay are inernational teams based in England.
Buying a liverpool jersey etc is on par with buying a "Big Mac."

Furthermore last time I checked , Liverpool or Man united never burst into Croke Park and shot dead innocent spectators. Nor did they murder civil rights marchers in Derry! And to my knowledge they never occupied our country.

To compare supporting a charity for a foreign army responsible for many atrocities in your own country, and supporting a sporting organisation is clearly ridiculous.

IF you want to follow the British way and wear a poppy, thats your choice. But don't expect to be supported for it. I respect British culture and I even respect the fact that British like to commerate THEIR army in this way, however, I will never respect an "Irishman" that wears a poppy.

Irish history is plaqued with traitors waiting to plunge the knife into their compatriots backs in order to gain favour of the British. These people still exist today, although they have replaced the knife with the keyboard, and in some cases the poppy.

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

+ 1. It seems this basic, well referenced fact really has to be said ad nauseum on this thread to the proponents of the British poppy who are clearly intentionally propagating this myth of the British poppy being an international symbol of commemoration. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, there are two conversations going on.

The poppy is an internationally recognised symbol of remembrance, look up its history. It was created by a Canadian and adopted by the French and the Americans. http://www1.va.gov/opa/vetsday/flanders.asp

The poppy people wear this time of year is the one adopted by the British Legion as its symbol of remembrance. Not all poppies are British so it is misleading to say that the poppy is, or isn't, an international symbol.

gurramok

Jakkass wrote: »

By Unionist in the respect that he supports Northern Ireland deciding for themselves, or Unionist in wanting all of Ireland to come back? I'd be interested in hearing Camelot on this one actually.

The latter part.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60630788&highlight=unionist#post60630788
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=57504256&highlight=unionist#post57504256

On the topic, I think its best that posters proclaim where their allegiances are as there are quite a few English/Unionist types here which is a good thing so we can engage in different views. I commend Fratton for example stating he is an Englishman as he is not hiding behind something and is straight up on his background.

Dáibhí

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Again, there are two conversations going on.

The poppy is an internationally recognised symbol of remembrance, look up its history. It was created by a Canadian and adopted by the French and the Americans. http://www1.va.gov/opa/vetsday/flanders.asp

The poppy people wear this time of year is the one adopted by the British Legion as its symbol of remembrance. Not all poppies are British so it is misleading to say that the poppy is, or isn't, an international symbol.

It is correct to say that the British poppy - that is, the poppy promoted in Ireland by the Royal British Legion - is not an international symbol, and that is precisely what I said. It is very much a British nationalist symbol designed to honour only those who fought on Britain's side. Can we finally agree on this?

prinz

Rondolfus wrote: »

IF you want to follow the British way and wear a poppy, thats your choice. But don't expect to be supported for it. I respect British culture and I even respect the fact that British like to commerate THEIR army in this way, however, I will never respect an "Irishman" that wears a poppy.
Irish history is plaqued with traitors waiting to plunge the knife into their compatriots backs in order to gain favour of the British. These people still exist today, although they have replaced the knife with the keyboard, and in some cases the poppy.

Why would I be any less Irish than you? Born and bred in Ireland. No family connections whatsoever to Britain or the British Army. Only been to Britian twice for no more than a day. Why am I now "Irish" as opposed to just being as Irish as the next person? Only one of us feels like ignoring a massiv part of our country's history and the thousands upon thousands of Irishmen who fought and died in the First World War.

Fratton Fred

MrMicra wrote: »

Still you're here and I'm not there.

What's that supposed to mean?

Rondolfus wrote: »

"English football" teams are international franchises now. Most of the top clubs are owned by non-brits, and most of the players in the top teams are non-brits. Essentially thay are inernational teams based in England.
Buying a liverpool jersey etc is on par with buying a "Big Mac."

look, each to their own. some go to confessional, others donate to charity, others try and pretend that liverpool and man united aren't English.

How you deal with your own guilt for being in love with something English is entirely up to you

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

It is correct to say that the British poppy - that is, the poppy promoted in Ireland by the Royal British Legion - is not an international symbol, and that is precisely what I said. It is very much a British nationalist symbol designed to honour only those who fought on Britain's side. Can we finally agree on this?

OK, can you please explain to me how it is any more of a nationalist symbol than the memorial at kilmichael, or naming stations after 1916 leaders?

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

On the topic, I think its best that posters proclaim where their allegiances are as there are quite a few English/Unionist types here which is a good thing so we can engage in different views. I commend Fratton for example stating he is an Englishman as he is not hiding behind something and is straight up on his background.

My allegiance is to Ireland and to Irish people. I will not turn my back on the lives and deaths of thousands of fellow Irishmen in the trenches of Europe.

By the way a person doesn't have to be a present day Unionist to acknowledge our one time history as part of a United Kingdom. We're not anymore but thatn isn't going to make me selectively blot out major parts of Irish history.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

My allegiance is to Ireland and to Irish people. I will not turn my back on the lives and deaths of thousands of fellow Irishmen in the trenches of Europe.

By the way a person doesn't have to be a present day Unionist to acknowledge our one time history as part of a United Kingdom. We're not anymore but thatn isn't going to make me selectively blot out major parts of Irish history.

Thats at odds as you fund a foreign army by buying a red poppy. Why not fund the Irish army, ashamed of it??

prinz

fordprefect wrote: »

Eamon DeValera and Archbishop John Charles McQuaid. These losers did so much damage they may as well have worked for the British.

Off topic but actually there is a book coming out soon which claims that DeV was working for the British, apparently he got turned after 1916 in exchange for his life, deal was he got a free hand to do what he liked in the Free State so long as he never let Ireland become any kind of threat to Britain, economically, politically, militarily... which explains pretty much DeV's entire legacy to the country.

Rondolfus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean?

look, each to their own. some go to confessional, others donate to charity, others try and pretend that liverpool and man united aren't English.

How you deal with your own guilt for being in love with something English is entirely up to you

I wish I did support an English team it would make watching football more interesting, however, i just don't have the passion. My point was that English teams are a product sold all around the world. Supporting them is in no way a betrayal of your roots. Its merely entertainment.

That said, you can't deny the Englsh clubs are no longer as "English" as they once were. Just look at Arsenal.

Besides I love many English things, however the army is not one of them!

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

Thats at odds as you fund a foreign army charity by buying a red poppy. Why not fund the Irish army, ashamed of it??

FYP.
Absolutely not. They have a fantastic track record and a history we can all be proud of. If they want me to contribute I will be glad to.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

FYP.
Absolutely not. They have a fantastic track record and a history we can all be proud of. If they want me to contribute I will be glad to.

So you have allegiances to 2 armies then!

You could be helpful as a double agent

Rondolfus

prinz wrote: »

Off topic but actually there is a book coming out soon which claims that DeV was working for the British, apparently he got turned after 1916 in exchange for his life, deal was he got a free hand to do what he liked in the Free State so long as he never let Ireland become any kind of threat to Britain, economically, politically, militarily... which explains pretty much DeV's entire legacy to the country.

Yea that would also explain why he didn't bow to English pressure by bringing Ireland into the war. :rolleyes:

DeValera was not killed by the British becuase he was an American citizen! Fact. These stupid claims such as the one above are common in Ireland. People seem to have no problem dirtying the name of Irish leaders just to sell a few more books. You'd have to be a fool to believe any of them.

Rondolfus

BTW Has it suddenly become fasionable to bash DeValera???

Funny how most people that complain about DeValera get most of their information from the film Michael Collins. I'm not saying he was perfect ( Who is?) but the man did a hell of a lot for this country.

Yea thats it, wear a poppy and bash DeValera , congrats people you do your country proud.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

So you have allegiances to 2 armies then!
You could be helpful as a double agent

Allegiances only to one army, and it ain't the British one. I also have allegiances to Irish history and Irish people, Irish lives snuffed out. Thousands....and thousands. Most died believing they were doing the right thing for the country. They got shafted. I'm not going to hold that against them.

The only thing I'm good at double agentin' is running between two offies to get the cheapest booze.

prinz

Rondolfus wrote: »

BTW Has it suddenly become fasionable to bash DeValera???

Nope. He was always a clown. What "hell of a lot of good" did DeV do now that you mention it? Like I said the book coming out was written IIRC by two eminent American historical biographers. Apparently they claim to have the documents from the British side to back up their claims.

Rondolfus

prinz wrote: »

Thousands....and thousands. Most died believing they were doing the right thing for the country. They got shafted. I'm not going to hold that against them.

How is giving money to the British army going to help these people???

HalloweenJack

Rondolfus wrote: »

BTW Has it suddenly become fasionable to bash DeValera???

No, I think there's been people who don't buy into the crap about him for a long time.

His running of the Irish Press is one of many things that raises alarm bells.

Rondolfus wrote:

Yea thats it, wear a poppy and bash DeValera , congrats people you do your country proud.

So it's unpatriotic to be free-thinking and supportive of Irish people?

Why can't we question the past? Do we have to accept everything we're handed down as gospel? People are allowed to think for themselves and if they want to question Dev, they've every right to, especially when there's evidence out there that he's not as great as he's made out to be.

As for the poppies, I didn't wear one but I see nothing wrong with remembering the Irish people who were killed in war.

prinz

Rondolfus wrote: »

Yea that would also explain why he didn't bow to English pressure by bringing Ireland into the war. :rolleyes:.

He did the next best thing. Officially "neutral", DeV helped the allied cause in every way imaginable. Ireland was of more use as a neutral than we would have been as an ally.

Rondolfus wrote: »

DeValera was not killed by the British becuase he was an American citizen! Fact.

Er not really. Do you think the Brits really could have cared less, or America for that matter. It was a handy get-out clause though.

Rondolfus wrote: »

These stupid claims such as the one above are common in Ireland. People seem to have no problem dirtying the name of Irish leaders just to sell a few more books. You'd have to be a fool to believe any of them.

:rolleyes: Really? It all makes sense from what I have read so far.

Rondolfus

prinz wrote: »

Nope. He was always a clown. What "hell of a lot of good" did DeV do now that you mention it? Like I said the book coming out was written IIRC by two eminent American historical biographers. Apparently they claim to have the documents from the British side to back up their claims.

LOL glad to see they got their information from reliable sources.

I'll look forward to see how they put this piece of fiction together. If you know anything about Irish History,you'd know how deeply unpopular DeValera was in Britain. Due in no small part to his stance on neutrality and the economic war! Yes, the ECONOMIC WAR! Hardly fits in with the your idea of him working for the Brits. But I suppose you'll prob say this was all just a cover up lol. We can talk about DeValera on a different thread if you wish. This thread is about the poppy.

You're an Irishman who wears a poppy becuase of your ancestors that fought in the war. Well newsflash, many Irish had family that fought in WW1 but they are not so misguided as to remember them by giving money to a British charity that helps British servicemen. How does that help your ancestors?? It doesn't help them, but it will help those soldiers responsible for Bloody Sunday. Your ancestors must be so proud of you.

Rondolfus

prinz wrote: »

Er not really. Do you think the Brits really could have cared less, or America for that matter. It was a handy get-out clause though.
.

Lol are you for real??? Of course the British cared. De Valera was a well known American citizen and had massive support amongst the Irish-American community. The whole concept of your conspiracy theory is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh anyway

Its all ready being discussed here... ( The first post says it all really)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62790284

LordSutch

Rondolfus wrote: »

I have never had an issue with British people wearing a poppy or showing pride in their country. That is normal. However, the question is whether it is unpatriotic for an Irish person to wear one. Frankly i believe it is because, as you mentioned, it means something entirely different to most Irish people than it does to British people.

Sometimes its difficult for British people to understand that Irish people like me feel absolutely no bond with Britain at all. In fact its quite the opposite. The sooner that people respect these differences the sooner we can move on from stupid threads like this.

If only it were that simple Rondolfus, but as you can see from Post#1058 (which is just one Church) there are many many Irish people up and down this country who like to respect remembrance day, & who also wear the poppy with pride, usually as a mark of respect to a dead Grandfather or Uncle, or just out of respect to all those who have died in all wars.

There is a very complicated bond between these two islands, almost like a love hate relationship, millions have emigrated to Britain over the centuries, close ties have always existed, and many people have joined-up with the British army for hundreds of years!

And, as I have personally witnessed for decades here in Ireland, the wearing of the poppy is not as simple as "British people do" "Irish people don't" > its just not a clear cut situaiton by any means.

johnny_doyle

IIMII wrote: »

Did you ever stop to think that it isn't the British per se, maybe Irish people are just not that into your army?

they were into the army in WW1, WW2 and more recently too. Recruits from the Republic are on the increase.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/british-army-recruiting-irish-troops-1407979.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0612/soldiers.html?rss

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0626/1224249575210.html

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2009/may/31/irish-recruits-march-north-to-enlist-in-british-ar/

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Irishman-explains-why-he-joined.4353089.jp

Dáibhí

johnny_doyle wrote: »

they were into the army in WW1, WW2 and more recently too. Recruits from the Republic are on the increase.

Indeed, all the way to 10.5% of the recruitment in the north of Ireland - and that's the British Army's figures. So put the real figure at about half of that (at most). Either way, the quality of the people who join the British Army is not exactly scholarship material. We are, as much as it annoys the faith and fatherland poppy types, talking about the most marginalised youth in the poorest areas. Not exactly "hero" material, but let's continue to romanticise the past and glorify the deeds of these marginalised people in a different generation.

Dáibhí

I know a guy very, very well who joined the British Army. He is a "true Dub" from York Street where he was raised in the tenements there as a member of a very large family. In 1960, while serving his time as an apprentice in Dublin, one of his friends said he was going up to Belfast to join the British Army. My friend said he'd go with him. Off with both of them. At that time - and anybody here in the know could confirm/check this - the recruitment office of the British Army was in York Street (pure coincidence) in Belfast. Anyway, he was offered £5 to come back after the first meeting and he couldn't believe his luck. Just for that one visit he was paid more than he'd earn in a few months in Dublin. Sure enough he went back and got paid even more for returning and immediately after he joined the British Army.

He tells us recurrently of things which happened across the world during his time in it which I don't want to get into as it's been some time since those escapades were brought up. Anyway, upon the introduction of Internment in 1971 his regiment (unit?) was sent for training in preparation for being sent to Ireland. This man is not a brave man, nor an educated man, nor a notably intelligent man but he is honest. And I do like him, even if I don't empathise with his decision to join the BA. Anyway, he thought of his mother back in Dublin and what would happen her if he were seen on television in a British uniform by the local Dubliners. He left the British Army two nights before they were due to be sent to Ireland and, as he reminded me a couple of months ago, he left all the personal things from home and his trips around the world in the barracks that night. He lost them for good, but he had never been as terrified in all his life. He can still recount in some detail his journey across England to get back to Ireland that night/the following morning. Some months later, back in Dublin, he was looking at the TV and there was his regiment (unit?) at a roadblock and he could see his replacement on the radio.

This is the only Irish person I know who joined the British Army. As I said, I have a lot of time for him on a personal level. But he did not exactly have an abundance of opportunities in life - he left school at 10 years of age - and joined the BA because it gave him a lot of money. Had he been killed in 1970 he would be remembered today as a "hero" by the poppy advocates; he lived until 1971, when a war he didn't want to be involved in intensified, and deserted so he is now something of a "traitor" for this desertion.

If he and his motives are examples of motivations when joining the British Army I see nothing admirable about them. Indeed, this collective glorification of men who joined the BA for the most menial of reasons has infinitely more to do with British nationalist thinking today than with commemorating the people who died. These "Remembrance" ceremonies are about glorifying the past in order to inspire another generation of marginalised young people to volunteer as cannonfodder for the British state. Shame on all you (unquestionably nationalistically motivated) people who are partaking in this agenda.

Dáibhí

prinz wrote: »

Nope. He was always a clown. What "hell of a lot of good" did DeV do now that you mention it? Like I said the book coming out was written IIRC by two eminent American historical biographers. Apparently they claim to have the documents from the British side to back up their claims.

Éamon De Valera was far from a clown; if he was, he was less of a clown than those in Fine Gael who couldn't overthrow him for 16 years - and only then they managed it by removing their leader (Mulcahy) and allying with the former chief of staff of the IRA (and future recipient of the Noble Prize for Peace), Seán Mac Bride.

As much as it galls certain people, De Valera did create a constitution which in its day was comparatively very secular and liberal. Contrast that with, for instance, a certain European state which refuses to allow a Catholic to become head of state in 2009 (but is, it appears, rather keen on having Irish Catholics die for it while remnants of the old British régime in Ireland assume the position of cheerleaders/armchair warriors).

Hmmm, I wonder what state that could be?

Dáibhí

HalloweenJack wrote: »

So it's unpatriotic to be free-thinking and supportive of Irish people?

It really depends on what those "Irish people" have done, doesn't it. If you support people invading other countries, dispossessing the natives and strengthening British power in the region, then clearly you are right to support the British poppy appeal. It is very apt: "my country (Britain), right or wrong".

However, if you have a more sophisticated sense of Irishness which recognises good and bad and supports the good regardless of the origin of the person, that is something to admire. Clearly, a lot of people on the pro-poppy side have not evolved to that stage.

Dáibhí

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OK, can you please explain to me how it is any more of a nationalist symbol than the memorial at kilmichael, or naming stations after 1916 leaders?

I'm fine with Kilmichael being an Irish nationalist symbol. It is clear that the vast majority of Irish people are nationalist in the sense that they want Ireland to be free from British rule. It is just, well, the English like to put themselves above such dirty concepts as "nationalism" and then along comes the poppy and all the nationalist linen in British history is hung out to dry for the whole world to see.

The difference between Kilmichael and your country's nationalist events is that this is Ireland; Irish people, as has been said, do not expect British people to wear an Easter lily, never mind feign that it is an international symbol. The pro-poppy people here, in contrast, seek to gain acceptance for their British poppy and have the Irish commemorate a very British nationalist remembrance event. Given our history, that is just a very disconnected (to be polite) expectation.

Dáibhí

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British empire was a small somewhat benevolent empire

Ah, British humour, I presume?

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

Ah, British humour, I presume?

Mis-quoting, Irish wit?

Judging by your last few posts though, this is the closest to reality you have come. No one takes you seriously when you start writing a load of bitter bull****.

IIMII

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OK, can you please explain to me how it is any more of a nationalist symbol than the memorial at kilmichael, or naming stations after 1916 leaders?

Because you aren't expected to wear either of those types of symbols, or get bullied if you don't.

Listen ye guys are so taken with your symbols that even post boxes get stamped after whoever the latest family-member-in-charge is.

The poppy is a personal form of that stamp.

dvpower

twinytwo wrote: »

so america should forget and forgive for 9/11?...Im sorry if i cant get over mass muder over an 800 year period where no one was ever held accountable for anything

No never ... as for those Japanese ... and Koreans ... and Spanish ... and those damn Indians.

(oh, and the Brits; I almost forgot about the Brits)

prinz

Rondolfus wrote: »

I'll look forward to see how they put this piece of fiction together. If you know anything about Irish History,you'd know how deeply unpopular DeValera was in Britain. Due in no small part to his stance on neutrality and the economic war! Yes, the ECONOMIC WAR! Hardly fits in with the your idea of him working for the Brits. But I suppose you'll prob say this was all just a cover up lol.

I know plenty about Irish history thanks. Enough to know that Dev and his pals but Ireland into reverse. We were more dependant on agriculture in 1950 than we were in 1870, what does that tell you about progress in Ireland? Ever read anything written by Michael Collins? Compare his view of what should happen in Ireland with what did happen.

Rondolfus wrote: »

You're an Irishman who wears a poppy becuase of your ancestors that fought in the war.

Well done, you're obviously not even reading what people are posting.

Rondolfus wrote: »

Well newsflash, many Irish had family that fought in WW1 but they are not so misguided as to remember them by giving money to a British charity that helps British servicemen. How does that help your ancestors?? It doesn't help them, but it will help those soldiers responsible for Bloody Sunday. Your ancestors must be so proud of you.

My ancestors? Go back and read my posts will you?

Rondolfus wrote: »

Lol are you for real??? Of course the British cared.

Can you provide any evidence that this was the case? Seeing as how it is "FACT" and all that, surely there is some basis for this claim.

Dáibhí wrote: »

As much as it galls certain people, De Valera did create a constitution which in its day was comparatively very secular and liberal.

DeV had nothing to do with the writing of the Bunreacht. It was 'created' by other people. Surely you know this?

Dáibhí wrote: »

Contrast that with, for instance, a certain European state which refuses to allow a Catholic to become head of state in 2009 (but is, it appears, rather keen on having Irish Catholics die for it while remnants of the old British régime in Ireland assume the position of cheerleaders/armchair warriors).
Hmmm, I wonder what state that could be?

:pac: Remnants of the old regime :pac: I am 25, and the nearest I have been to Britain is a few hours wait in Heathrow Airport. Do I care what system Britian operate; hmmm no. I couldn't give a damn.

RandomName2

Look!

Just have to say this now:

'British' literally means 'welsh' (the welsh name for the welsh)

'Welsh' literally means 'slave' (the anglo-saxon name for the welsh)

James I was the king of Scotland when he came to the throne in England (he was James VI of Scotland).

He wanted to have his multi-national subjects to live in peace together and not squabble.

He used to term British to mean any member of the erm... British Isles.

He combined the Cross of St George and St Andrew into the Union Jack (or Union James).

The English were not terribly happy with this.

But hey! His son made such a mess of religious affairs that Scotland invaded England and captured Newcastle. And the Irish then rose up, sparking the English Civil War.

The Irish sided with the English King. (As they did later on with James II)

Scotland sided with Parliament.

Parliament won.

And ever since idiot Republicans have talked out of their arses thinking that they are anti-English monarchists by saying fcuk the Union Jack and the Brits.

And the Irish battalions who fought in Flanders. Naturally.

Sorry for the history lesson, fellow britons.

gurramok

RandomName2 wrote: »

Sorry for the history lesson, fellow britons.

Nice making stuff up. Did Ireland just disappear of the map that we're all in Britain now?:rolleyes:

Dáibhí

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Judging by your last few posts though, this is the closest to reality you have come. No one takes you seriously when you start writing a load of bitter bull****.

And this remedial form of personal attack is the best response you can make, it appears. As for your last sentence: who appointed you spokesperson for all the Irish here, or indeed all the posters here?


PS: I didn't "misquote" you, as anybody can see (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62923063&postcount=1098); claiming that the British Empire was a "small" and "benevolent" empire is patently designed to make you the subject of ridicule.

Dáibhí

prinz wrote: »

Only one of us feels like ignoring a massiv part of our country's history and the thousands upon thousands of Irishmen who fought and died in the First World War.

'Massive'? I think not. Irish Catholic involvement in the British forces is a relatively recent development, a fact which eludes the proponents of the British poppy here. It was only in the late 18th century that Irish Catholics were deemed to be trustworthy enough to be allowed into the British Army; this understates reality, as the real reason was that the undertakers in Ireland could not raise enough Protestant troops and due to the wars in the colonies Catholics were reluctantly allowed into the British Army/to be given arms. It was only following Catholic Emancipation (1829) that the recruitment of Irish Catholics in the British forces took off, reaching its peak in 1830 and declining for the remainder of that century. By 1913 Irish (Catholic and Protestant) membership of the British Army stood at 9%. During WWI the percentage of males in England, Scotland and Wales who joined the British Army was 24%, 22% and 24% respectively. In Ireland, it stood at a mere 6% (http://books.google.ie/books?id=WUTpAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA103&dq=%22British+Army%22+irish&ei=AoD4SsWGMprKyQTyuNGLBg#v=onepage&q=%22British%20Army%22%20irish&f=false: page 98). Why will the poppy advocates not engage with these statistics? In total, 35,000 Irish-born people (Catholic and Protestant) - and not 100,000 as some people here have claimed - died in WWI (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/ireland_wwone_01.shtml).

In your professed desire to avoid 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history', do you "remember" this?

For that matter, do you "remember" the over 200,000 Irish-born people who fought in the US Civil War?

Do you remember the far greater percentages of the Irish male populations who fought with the French and, particularly, the Spanish from the mid-sixteenth century until at least the late eighteenth century? Both of which lasted for much longer than did the Irish Catholic involvement in the British Army. Not to mention the Irish who fought with the Mexicans? Or with the Argentineans? Or with the Swedish?

And what about Gaelic Ireland: do you "remember" those who fought for its various leaders against the English for a longer period than all of the above? Do you "remember" the racism, the sectarianism and the cultural supremacism of English and later British culture and its representatives towards the Irish? (I get the impression that you embrace it as some form of "civilisation") Do you "remember" when 95% of the land of Ireland was held by British Protestants by virtue of that fact?

If not, why not? I suppose my real question is this: is there a synchronicity between what you "remember" and what British nationalists selectively "remember"; have you replaced Irish nationalist remembrance with British nationalist remembrance? If so, why have you ignored so much of Ireland's history in taking this path while claiming that you are not 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history'?

prinz

Dáibhí wrote: »

'Massive'? I think not.

OK so, 800 years of a political connection to our neighbours is not a massive part of our nation's history. My mistake.

Dáibhí wrote: »

In your professed desire to avoid 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history', do you "remember" this?For that matter, do you "remember" the over 200,000 Irish-born people who fought in the US Civil War?
Do you remember the far greater percentages of the Irish male populations who fought with the French and, particularly, the Spanish from the mid-sixteenth century until at least the late eighteenth century? Both of which lasted for much longer than did the Irish Catholic involvement in the British Army. Not to mention the Irish who fought with the Mexicans? Or with the Argentineans? Or with the Swedish?

Yes. I do. This in particular was wonderful..

http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/soldiers-and-chiefs.aspx

However now you seem to be accepting that one could fight in a foreign army and still be Irish, that doing so didn't make them traitors etc. I think of men like Commodore Barry, Bernardo O'Higgins..and the list is endless...

Dáibhí wrote: »

I suppose my real question is this: is there a synchronicity between what you "remember" and what British nationalists selectively "remember"; have you replaced Irish nationalist remembrance with British nationalist remembrance? If so, why have you ignored so much of Ireland's history in taking this path while claiming that you are not 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history'?

No, there is no such synchronicity. I am not a British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist, however I am not stupid enough to try and whitewash sections of our history, in order to score points in today's Ireland. Everything is great in hindsight. Irish soldiers were told that by fighting in the trenches they were doing something positive for Ireland, that they could win home rule etc. They did what they believed was right for Ireland. I will not dishonour their memory.

Fratton Fred

IIMII wrote: »

Because you aren't expected to wear either of those types of symbols, or get bullied if you don't.

Listen ye guys are so taken with your symbols that even post boxes get stamped after whoever the latest family-member-in-charge is.

The poppy is a personal form of that stamp.

You are just sniping now.

prinz

IIMII wrote: »

Listen ye guys are so taken with your symbols that even post boxes get stamped after whoever the latest family-member-in-charge is.
The poppy is a personal form of that stamp.

Where I am from the post boxes are green, and have been since the day I was born. Great point though.

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

No, there is no such synchronicity. I am not a British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist, however I am not stupid enough to try and whitewash sections of our history.

I nearly choked on my refreshment reading the above. There should be a health warning

How come you as an Irish nationalist didn't give a flying feck about a British helicopter harassing a young Irish nationalist family in Tyrone? (remember that thread on politics?)
Let me remind you of your past staunch defence of the British Army in Tyrone.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61559661&postcount=63

How many more gestures of goodwill will be needed? This isn't anything to do with NI, or nationalists. This isn't internment, or road blocks, or stop and search. This is the BA, using an aerodrome that's been there for donkeys years to train helicopter crews preparing for deployment abroad, and they even manage to throw a dig in at that in the article.