Is it unpatriotic to wear a poppy ?

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

'Massive'? I think not. Irish Catholic involvement in the British forces is a relatively recent development, a fact which eludes the proponents of the British poppy here. It was only in the late 18th century that Irish Catholics were deemed to be trustworthy enough to be allowed into the British Army; this understates reality, as the real reason was that the undertakers in Ireland could not raise enough Protestant troops and due to the wars in the colonies Catholics were reluctantly allowed into the British Army/to be given arms. It was only following Catholic Emancipation (1829) that the recruitment of Irish Catholics in the British forces took off, reaching its peak in 1830 and declining for the remainder of that century. By 1913 Irish (Catholic and Protestant) membership of the British Army stood at 9%. During WWI the percentage of males in England, Scotland and Wales who joined the British Army was 24%, 22% and 24% respectively. In Ireland, it stood at a mere 6% (http://books.google.ie/books?id=WUTpAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA103&dq=%22British+Army%22+irish&ei=AoD4SsWGMprKyQTyuNGLBg#v=onepage&q=%22British%20Army%22%20irish&f=false: page 98). Why will the poppy advocates not engage with these statistics? In total, 35,000 Irish-born people (Catholic and Protestant) - and not 100,000 as some people here have claimed - died in WWI (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/ireland_wwone_01.shtml).

In your professed desire to avoid 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history', do you "remember" this?

For that matter, do you "remember" the over 200,000 Irish-born people who fought in the US Civil War?

Do you remember the far greater percentages of the Irish male populations who fought with the French and, particularly, the Spanish from the mid-sixteenth century until at least the late eighteenth century? Both of which lasted for much longer than did the Irish Catholic involvement in the British Army. Not to mention the Irish who fought with the Mexicans? Or with the Argentineans? Or with the Swedish?

And what about Gaelic Ireland: do you "remember" those who fought for its various leaders against the English for a longer period than all of the above? Do you "remember" the racism, the sectarianism and the cultural supremacism of English and later British culture and its representatives towards the Irish? (I get the impression that you embrace it as some form of "civilisation") Do you "remember" when 95% of the land of Ireland was held by British Protestants by virtue of that fact?

If not, why not? I suppose my real question is this: is there a synchronicity between what you "remember" and what British nationalists selectively "remember"; have you replaced Irish nationalist remembrance with British nationalist remembrance? If so, why have you ignored so much of Ireland's history in taking this path while claiming that you are not 'ignoring a massive part of our country's history'?

But just in case anyone forgets, there are plenty of true, patriotic, pure blooded celtic warriors like yourself to remind them aren't there.

Dáibhí

prinz wrote: »

OK so, 800 years of a political connection to our neighbours is not a massive part of our nation's history. My mistake.

And there is a large part of your mistake, right there: you are viewing all Irish history in terms of some teleological interaction between nation states where an agreement between a lord of Norman origin in West Cork and a Gaelic lord beside him in 1209 has now become part of some British-Irish "political connection". This is wrong (i.e. ahistorical) on so many levels that it just makes me sad.

prinz wrote: »

However now you seem to be accepting that one could fight in a foreign army and still be Irish.

Indeed, it is very possible. The entire notion is infinitely less credible, however, when they are fighting for a foreign army that is occupying your country. On the ground here, this deduction is what is known as basic cop-on.

prinz wrote: »

No, there is no such synchronicity. I am not a British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist, however I am not stupid enough to try and whitewash sections of our history.

But why are you not approaching Irish history in a more holistic manner? (I've done an albeit brief search of your posting history) Why are you so intent upon focusing on the British "political connection" and in the process suffocating the much longer other connections? Why are you trying to impose a British framework upon everything which has happened in Irish history in the past 800 years? That is not history, not even near it.

Rondolfus

prinz wrote: »

No, there is no such synchronicity. I am not a British nationalist. I am an Irish nationalist, however I am not stupid enough to try and whitewash sections of our history, in order to score points in today's Ireland. Everything is great in hindsight. Irish soldiers were told that by fighting in the trenches they were doing something positive for Ireland, that they could win home rule etc. They did what they believed was right for Ireland. I will not dishonour their memory.

Yea don't dishonour their memory. Support the poppy and the regime that double-crossed them and used them as cannon fodder. :rolleyes: Then try and convince yourself that you're doing it for "their memory" even though you're really doing it for attention. Yea! then everybody will see how enlightened and original you are. An "Irish nationalist" that wears a poppy, wow what a revealation.

Fratton Fred

Dáibhí wrote: »

And this remedial form of personal attack is the best response you can make, it appears. As for your last sentence: who appointed you spokesperson for all the Irish here, or indeed all the posters here?


PS: I didn't "misquote" you, as anybody can see (http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62923063&postcount=1098); claiming that the British Empire was a "small" and "benevolent" empire is patently designed to make you the subject of ridicule.

Misquoted, out of context, call it what you like, you are misrepresenting what I said to suit your own argument.

Fratton Fred

Sound like Prinz is a victim of Irish Republican fascism to me.

Happy Monday

Rondolfus wrote: »

An "Irish nationalist" that wears a poppy, wow what a revealation.

Of course Irish nationalists wear poppies.
In the same way that Scottish and Welsh nationalists can wear poppies.
Or English nationalists.

It's your Irish republican view that has convinced you that the only form of national self expression is represented by the few boys who fell out of a pub in Dublin one Easter morn to declare a republic in defiance of 99.99% of the Irish people.

gurramok

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sound like Prinz is a victim of Irish Republican fascism to me.

Huh?? Do you realise what you just said?

Fascism is right wing yet Irish republicanism is left wing.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Of course Irish nationalists wear poppies.
In the same way that Scottish and Welsh nationalists can wear poppies.
Or English nationalists.

It's your Irish republican view that has convinced you that the only form of national self expression is represented by the few boys who fell out of a pub in Dublin one Easter morn to declare a republic in defiance of 99.99% of the Irish people.

Bitter are we? How about you starting a Unionist party to join the UK as after all no-one represents you in the Dail.?

Rondolfus

Does anyone else find it a bit strange that two of the most vocal posters (in favour of the poppy) on this thread "is it unpatriotic for an Irish person to wear a poppy", are English? hmmm maybe that tells us something.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Sound like Prinz is a victim of Irish Republican fascism to me.

Sounds like anybody who disagrees with the British/West Brits view of World History are automatically labelled Republican fascists...

Rondolfus

Happy Monday wrote: »

you that the only form of national self expression is represented by the few boys who fell out of a pub in Dublin one Easter morn to declare a republic in defiance of 99.99% of the Irish people.

Nice...very nice. :rolleyes:

enniscorthy

Happy Monday wrote: »

It's your Irish republican view that has convinced you that the only form of national self expression is represented by the few boys who fell out of a pub in Dublin one Easter morn to declare a republic in defiance of 99.99% of the Irish people.

is that you mr conor cruise o brien :p:p

Fratton Fred

Rondolfus wrote: »

Does anyone else find it a bit strange that two of the most vocal posters (in favour of the poppy) on this thread "is it unpatriotic for an Irish person to wear a poppy", are English? hmmm maybe that tells us something.




Sounds like anybody who disagrees with the British/West Brits view of World History are automatically labelled Republican fascists...

I suggest you re-read my posts.

Happy Monday

Rondolfus wrote: »

Nice...very nice. :rolleyes:

And......true.
The Real IRA in the North is in a position to draw authority from this delcaration.
Ruari O'Bradaigh considers himself the successor to Pearse.
Extreme Irish Republicans of that day were not democrats.
Shame that pub closed that morning - they would still be there now.

Dyr

Dáibhí wrote: »

For that matter, do you "remember" the over 200,000 Irish-born people who fought in the US Civil War?

Therein lies the real rub, you'd imagine all the people who advocate wearing the poppy in honour of irish men who died in war would be just as vocal on memorial day but oddly enough they aren't.

Rondolfus

Happy Monday wrote: »

And......true.
The Real IRA in the North is in a position to draw authority from this delcaration.
Ruari O'Bradaigh considers himself the successor to Pearse.
Extreme Irish Republicans of that day were not democrats.
Shame that pub closed that morning - they would still be there now.

lol true?? You wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you in the face with a Union Jack. Your comment is hardly worth replying to. I suggest you take off your blinkers and actually read a history book instead of trolling (which you obviously are).

Happy Monday wrote:

Ruari O'Bradaigh considers himself the successor to Pearse..

Yea and Derek Accorah says he contacted Michael Jackson in a Seance. Doesn't make it so! Seriously the fact you mentioned the Real IRA in the same sentence as the 1916 rebels betrays your immense ignorance on the subject. Move along the joke is over lol

MrMicra

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I suggest you re-read my posts.

He has a point Fratton Fred. Prinz and Jakkass are Irish and wear a poppy. Their contribution to the discussion has been interesting and thought provoking as was Drumaneen before he was banned for calling someone a clown.

My opinion on Poppy wearing has been changed by their contributions (especially Jakkass's).
I sympathise with you, Fratton Fred, because you are not lucky enough to be Irish and I understand why you want to be Irish. You don't want to engage in constructive debate; or perhaps given the well known differences in verbal dexterity between out two peoples you cannot engage in debate at an Irish internet level. You just want to wind people up until they type an intemeperate remark and get banned.
How is lying about the British empire going to convince Irish people that it is not unpatriotic to wear a poppy? Of course if I were a British nationalist I would lie about the British empire too.

I think I'll buy a poppy and if I am asked why I am wearing it I will say that I am wearing it for the Fenians.

Dáibhí

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But just in case anyone forgets, there are plenty of true, patriotic, pure blooded celtic warriors like yourself to remind them aren't there.

You're just sounding very intimidated and incapable of maintaining any semblance of an educated, rational discussion now. Please take an official break from civility for a while.

Happy Monday

Rondolfus wrote: »

Seriously the fact you mentioned the Real IRA in the same sentence as the 1916 rebels betrays your immense ignorance on the subject. Move along , you made enough of a fool of yourself lol

Pearse and Clarke had planned a rising for 1916.
They co-opted Connolly and the ICA into this to bring their numbers upto 1,000 or thereabouts of a population in excess of 3m - hardly popular support.
They believed in blood sacrifice not in democratic politics - I suggest you read a book or two if you believe otherwise.
The rising went ahead anyway because the leaders were about to be picked by the police as insurgents and detained.
The citizens of Dublin were outraged at the damage done to their city.
The Real IRA have today the same level of support as Pearse and Connolly had then - FACT!

MrMicra

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But just in case anyone forgets, there are plenty of true, patriotic, pure blooded celtic warriors like yourself to remind them aren't there.

Dáibhí wrote: »

You're just sounding very intimidated and incapable of maintaining any semblance of an educated, rational discussion now. Please take an official break from civility for a while.

I am not sure that many English people have ever been capable of discussion at a normal Irish level. It takes time to become Hiberniores ipsis Hibernis.

Fratton Fred

MrMicra wrote: »

He has a point Fratton Fred. Prinz and Jakkass are Irish and wear a poppy. Their contribution to the discussion has been interesting and thought provoking as was Drumaneen before he was banned for calling someone a clown.

My opinion on Poppy wearing has been changed by their contributions (especially Jakkass's).
I sympathise with you, Fratton Fred, because you are not lucky enough to be Irish and I understand why you want to be Irish. You don't want to engage in constructive debate; or perhaps given the well known differences in verbal dexterity between out two peoples you cannot engage in debate at an Irish internet level. You just want to wind people up until they type an intemeperate remark and get banned.
How is lying about the British empire going to convince Irish people that it is not unpatriotic to wear a poppy? Of course if I were a British nationalist I would lie about the British empire too.

I think I'll buy a poppy and if I am asked why I am wearing it I will say that I am wearing it for the Fenians.

Would you like me to write slower in future, you are obviously having trouble reading English at the speed at which I write it. Maybe it is those blinkers causing the problem so you could always try taking them off.

Rondolfus

Happy Monday wrote: »

Pearse and Clarke had planned a rising for 1916.
They co-opted Connolly and the ICA into this to bring their numbers upto 1,000 or thereabouts of a population in excess of 3m - hardly popular support.

l

By that logic no army in the world has the popular support of the people unless most civillians actively participate in fighting. You have absolutely no figures that back up the argument that MOST Irish people did not support them. Some people in Dublin did scourn them, however the number was blown out of proportion by the British, who needed to convince the Empire that they were still supported especially in the time of war. The idea that people just started to support the nationalist cause after the executions, has largely been debunked. You are getting your history from British sources... and British sources from 1916 for that matter.

Happy Monday wrote:

They believed in blood sacrifice not in democratic politics - I suggest you read a book or two if you believe otherwise.

Well duh.... what army doesn't believe in Blood sacrifice??? As for democratic politics, funny how their actions lead to the democracy YOU live in now!

Happy Monday wrote:

The rising went ahead anyway because the leaders were about to be picked by the police as insurgents and detained.

So they must have planned it !!! Wow, they didn't just fall out of pubs:rolleyes:

Happy Monday wrote:

The citizens of Dublin were outraged at the damage done to their city.

Firstly SOME Dubliners were outraged! And secondly DUBLIN does not equal all of IRELAND!

Happy Monday wrote:

The Real IRA have today the same level of support as Pearse and Connolly had then - FACT!

If you mean by "FACT" something that you blantantly made up. Then yes.

Seriously were are you getting your facts and figures from?? The pop-out book of Ulster Unionism?

4zn76tysfajdxp

I'm closing this thread because it's just descended into farce.