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Slow marathons - a non achievement?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,556 ✭✭✭plodder


    Bottom line

    Slow marathons-personal achievement

    Fast marathons-sporting achievement

    A whole thread summarised in 8 words. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    pre5175 wrote: »
    . Any Marathon finished is something to be proud of

    From what perspective though - sporting or personal?


    (excellent qualifier Mr Running Bing - really narrowed it down - I like it!!! )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭PVincent


    I have run 5 marathons ...disergard my first in 1982 ...I was young ..I did 3 in 2003/2004/2005... all decent times with a best of 3.24...I then became very ill (not critical but not very well) ....this year after a long period of regaining strength over a 2 year period, I ran Chicago in 3.39 ....I consider this to be my best achievement ...

    For any poster to put up a comment that 'anyone can run a marathon ' is simply a complete fairy tale...How does anyone know what the physical capabilities of any other human being are ...running or even walking a marathon is an achievement worthy of the highest acclaim from anyone who has never done one ... until you have done a marathon and prepared ,trained and become mentally attuned to getting across the line in 'YOUR' own best time , well it is incredibly naive to pass comment on other achievements ...and these naive people do seem to be athletes ...The marathon is the one true sport where the whole field is equal ...they all run the same distance, they all get the same medal, they all get the same applause from the supporters (in fact the field get more support than the elites , naturally from their friends, family etc)

    so I say to anyone who has ever done a marathon ....well done and celebrate your achievement ...I will treasure all mine , and hopefully I will be like the great Paddy Craddock when I am 70..

    The other thing that running or walking a marathon does , is that it gives people remarkable self confidence , courage , belief , and mental strength and surely in this day and age ,anything that can have such a positive influence on the general public should be shouted from the rooftops as something to celebrate rather than to be ridiculed because it might take someone 6hours ..

    seriously though...try walking for 6 hours without some level of training ...it will be the last time you walk for a week ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 pre5175


    Tingle wrote: »
    From what perspective though - sporting or personal?


    (excellent qualifier Mr Running Bing - really narrowed it down - I like it!!! )
    I guess it depends on what the person running hope to achieve? is it to prove a point after a comeback from illness, where a finish alone may be the dream? or is it to go sub 3? Personally I feel , for me anything under 3 would be good, but that's not to say a 5 hour is a bad one. My only issue , would be with the people who may not show the event respect, and talk like it is an easy thing to do. you know the same one's who spend the night before having a beer or two. those are the one's who grind my gears


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Lets agree that everyone can be a member of the super-fantastic-speedy-joy club and lets give everyone a medal.

    People are proud of books/poems that they write that are sh!te.
    People are proud of paintings that they do that are brutal.
    People are proud of kids that they dragged up that are brats.
    Why can't people be proud of walking a marathon?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    tunney wrote: »
    Lets agree that everyone can be a member of the super-fantastic-speedy-joy club and lets give everyone a medal.

    Yes, down with that brutal concept of winners and losers and competition and thumbs up to a Marxist running utopia where all are equal and all get the same rewards regardless of effort or workload. This utopia could work.

    London 2012, Mens 100m. 8,000 entrants.

    Steve Cram "and Bolt runs 9.02 for yet another world record but surely the highlight is Steve McCarthy from Leeds. Not many viewers know this but Steve is a single parent to 9 kids and recently lost his job. To help him he took up 100m and his PB today of 16.89 seconds is true testament to Steve's courage. Baron de Coubertin will be shedding a tear watching this from the grandstand in the sky".

    Cue to the mixed zone where Cheryl Cole is mentoring her athlete, little Mickey from Newcastle who is following his Olympic dream for his nan.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭HardyEustace


    Tingle wrote: »

    Cue to the mixed zone where Cheryl Cole is mentoring her athlete, little Mickey from Newcastle who is following his Olympic dream for his nan.

    Nan's dying wish was for little Mickey to compete in the olympics...[muffled whisper]..what's that skippy? Little Mickey's Nan isn't dead yet? No problem, stand aside folks <silence shattered by sound of shot gun>[/muffled whisper]

    Yes, as I was saying folks, Nan's dying wish was for little Mickey to compete in the olympics today. Isn't that lovely now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,001 ✭✭✭scottreynolds


    At least Ireland would get a medal (albeit for participation) :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭Nialloooo


    Thought this might be of intrest to you all, i pulled it off the run ireland fourm

    Hi Alan I walked the marathon
    Hi Alan
    I walked the marathon it was my first marathon since pulling out of Dublin 2006 after 10 miles.I got a new hip ten months ago so hadn,t done any real training,apart from a few runs out on my bike.I also walked the half in Connemara and Longford. I got round in 6 hours 53. which I was happy with as I was aiming for seven hours.I met an American guy who had a new heart so hope he managed to get round. I had a great day really enjoyed myself, the course is much easier now that you don,t have to run uphill through Phoenix park and there was more room at the start.I,ll be doing the half in Malta in February then the half Iin Connemara,if I can run these two instead of walking I might give the full a go in Belfast or Longford




    now is this a non achievement for these two people??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭Running Bing


    Nialloooo wrote: »
    Thought this might be of intrest to you all, i pulled it off the run ireland fourm

    Hi Alan I walked the marathon
    Hi Alan
    I walked the marathon it was my first marathon since pulling out of Dublin 2006 after 10 miles.I got a new hip ten months ago so hadn,t done any real training,apart from a few runs out on my bike.I also walked the half in Connemara and Longford. I got round in 6 hours 53. which I was happy with as I was aiming for seven hours.I met an American guy who had a new heart so hope he managed to get round. I had a great day really enjoyed myself, the course is much easier now that you don,t have to run uphill through Phoenix park and there was more room at the start.I,ll be doing the half in Malta in February then the half Iin Connemara,if I can run these two instead of walking I might give the full a go in Belfast or Longford




    now is this a non achievement for these two people??

    Of course its an achievement for those two people its just something very different from the "sport of marathon running".


    And I suppose thats the point...it is a sport but in recent times its become something else too. Where as in the past it was a sporting event and approaching it was seen as a sporting achievement for a lot of people now its something different...a personal achievement or a self improvement exercise.

    Thats fine and nobody can deny it is a personal achievement for people to do a marathon but at the same time, and this might be controversial, it does devalue the event somewhat because it is no longer a purely sporting endeavour.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭metamorphosis


    While it is without a doubt a personnel achievement ... it's not an athletic one


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭bourne99


    athletic, definition - "involving the use of physical skills or capabilities, as strength, agility, or stamina"
    Don't be conceited. I hate to see this dragged up again. I might be able to run a marathon in 3:30, as I'm a fairly active guy anyway. But if someone spends their lives sitting behind a desk and isn't inclined to 'natural' fitness/speed etc., and then runs the marathon in 4:30, and who probably put more effort into doing it than I did. Well, I can't see how that is a non-achievement. This whole 'non-achievement' thing is condescending crap of the highest order.

    And regarding this whole 'competition' idea - anytime I finish a race - it's the time I look at - and not what place I've come in. And as far as I can see, there are a lot of others who have this same mentality. So, I'm competing against myself. Look at Usain Bolt. He's broken the records. 1st place is more a less a given for him. So why does he put so much effort in now? To go faster than he has gone before. Well, what the heck is so sporting/competitive about that? God forbid - might you call it a 'personal-achievement'? My point is that, whether sporting/personal or whatever other ridiculous stereotypical definition you want to come up with - they're one in the same.

    I'm sure I'll be given out to now - but the only reason I'm writing this is because there are people who stumble across these threads, who have completed exactly the times/distances as mentioned in this thread and whose achievements - and that's what they are - have been belittled by this whole ridiculous idea - and by those who subscribe to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭myflipflops


    Needless bump, the arguement has been going around in circles now.

    Can i declare it a draw between the 2 sides and have the thread locked?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭bourne99


    pwhite587 wrote: »
    Needless bump, the arguement has been going around in circles now.

    Can i declare it a draw between the 2 sides and have the thread locked?

    Please do this. I hate it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭hot to trot


    ronanmac- did you manage to get closer to your desired 4 hour finish?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    bourne99 wrote: »
    And regarding this whole 'competition' idea - anytime I finish a race - it's the time I look at - and not what place I've come in. And as far as I can see, there are a lot of others who have this same mentality. So, I'm competing against myself. Look at Usain Bolt. He's broken the records. 1st place is more a less a given for him. So why does he put so much effort in now? To go faster than he has gone before. Well, what the heck is so sporting/competitive about that? God forbid - might you call it a 'personal-achievement'? My point is that, whether sporting/personal or whatever other ridiculous stereotypical definition you want to come up with - they're one in the same.

    With respect I think you are missing the point of what competitive athletics is about for the top, top guys like Bolt. Its not about having the fastest time. In '07, Powell was the fastest man, had the WR yet Gay whipped his ass in the Worlds. Who was the happier. Times are great but are the by product of a great competitive performance usually and if not then that person is regarded a choker and not a great athlete. Great athletes (at all levels) are those who deliver when it matters, when the competition is at its keenest, its most intense. I met a young athlete this weekend who is a great competitor. She needs the white hot of competition to perform and run her fastest. Thats competition. She will lose the lower, less important races but on the biggest stage (for her) she wins. Derval O' Rourke is the same. Fiercely competitive. Some old guy down the club who will dig in and always beat a guy 15 years his junior once its over 6miles. They are everywhere and at all levels. If I ran a PB but was beaten by someone I should have beaten in the race would I be happy? No way. Thats the difference about competition. Its against other people as opposed to yourself but at the same time its all down to yourself. You are happy when you beat your competitors. The factor driving Bolt may well be to just better his own time but there is a certain Tyson Gay who when fully fit and has a run at Bolt will only need a little chink or a little bit of complacency from Bolt to take him down. If it was all about times for Bolt he would try peak each year in maybe Zurich and Lausanne when there is just 1 race and no rounds.

    Anytime I finish a race its across the line I look at to see where I came, the time is secondary. It seems its no longer cool these days to be competitive or to want to always win and the old moral victory seems to carry as much weight. Many people focus too much on times and have forgotten how to compete. Thats just my opinion.

    I don't really care about the original thread other than if people who do these marathons for personal achievements yet crave adulation from others and get annoyed when the adulation isn't forthcoming, is that not a contradiction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭Running Bing


    Tingle wrote: »
    With respect I think you are missing the point of what competitive athletics is about for the top, top guys like Bolt. Its not about having the fastest time. In '07, Powell was the fastest man, had the WR yet Gay whipped his ass in the Worlds. Who was the happier. Times are great but are the by product of a great competitive performance usually and if not then that person is regarded a choker and not a great athlete. Great athletes (at all levels) are those who deliver when it matters, when the competition is at its keenest, its most intense. I met a young athlete this weekend who is a great competitor. She needs the white hot of competition to perform and run her fastest. Thats competition. She will lose the lower, less important races but on the biggest stage (for her) she wins. Derval O' Rourke is the same. Fiercely competitive. Some old guy down the club who will dig in and always beat a guy 15 years his junior once its over 6miles. They are everywhere and at all levels. If I ran a PB but was beaten by someone I should have beaten in the race would I be happy? No way. Thats the difference about competition. Its against other people as opposed to yourself but at the same time its all down to yourself. You are happy when you beat your competitors. The factor driving Bolt may well be to just better his own time but there is a certain Tyson Gay who when fully fit and has a run at Bolt will only need a little chink or a little bit of complacency from Bolt to take him down. If it was all about times for Bolt he would try peak each year in maybe Zurich and Lausanne when there is just 1 race and no rounds.

    Anytime I finish a race its across the line I look at to see where I came, the time is secondary. It seems its no longer cool these days to be competitive or to want to always win and the old moral victory seems to carry as much weight. Many people focus too much on times and have forgotten how to compete. Thats just my opinion.

    I don't really care about the original thread other than if people who do these marathons for personal achievements yet crave adulation from others and get annoyed when the adulation isn't forthcoming, is that not a contradiction.

    Great post. Agree 100% about views towards competitiveness in modern society...it seems to be something frowned upon rather celebrated these days.

    To me the personal achievement Nialloooo describes is like giving up smoking....its a great achievement and a positive step but its not really a sporting achievement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭eon1208


    Tingle wrote: »
    With respect I think you are missing the point of what competitive athletics is about for the top, top guys like Bolt. Its not about having the fastest time. In '07, Powell was the fastest man, had the WR yet Gay whipped his ass in the Worlds. Who was the happier. Times are great but are the by product of a great competitive performance usually and if not then that person is regarded a choker and not a great athlete. Great athletes (at all levels) are those who deliver when it matters, when the competition is at its keenest, its most intense. I met a young athlete this weekend who is a great competitor. She needs the white hot of competition to perform and run her fastest. Thats competition. She will lose the lower, less important races but on the biggest stage (for her) she wins. Derval O' Rourke is the same. Fiercely competitive. Some old guy down the club who will dig in and always beat a guy 15 years his junior once its over 6miles. They are everywhere and at all levels. If I ran a PB but was beaten by someone I should have beaten in the race would I be happy? No way. Thats the difference about competition. Its against other people as opposed to yourself but at the same time its all down to yourself. You are happy when you beat your competitors. The factor driving Bolt may well be to just better his own time but there is a certain Tyson Gay who when fully fit and has a run at Bolt will only need a little chink or a little bit of complacency from Bolt to take him down. If it was all about times for Bolt he would try peak each year in maybe Zurich and Lausanne when there is just 1 race and no rounds.

    Anytime I finish a race its across the line I look at to see where I came, the time is secondary. It seems its no longer cool these days to be competitive or to want to always win and the old moral victory seems to carry as much weight. Many people focus too much on times and have forgotten how to compete. Thats just my opinion.

    I don't really care about the original thread other than if people who do these marathons for personal achievements yet crave adulation from others and get annoyed when the adulation isn't forthcoming, is that not a contradiction.
    Excellent reply...At the heart of true sporting achievement is the essence of competitive competition whether it be running marathons or playing rugby...On a different level the recreational runner also has a right to achievement but the achievement is different from the person who strives to excel in his/her sport by beating rivals or setting pb's.... The non competitive person is merely running against himself/herself as alluded to here by another poster. It is an achievment for them but I do feel it is right to make the distinction between this and sporting achievement as practiced by the competitive person in true competition.....I have the utmost respect for the non competitive runner as it provides wholesale health benefits for the nation and its people and if they see the marathon as a badge of honour I would'nt question it.....Somedays I question why I train so hard when I wake up in the morning and really struggle to get up with tiredness but I really would'nt have it any other way as its my nature to do this. Thats not to say I dont self critically question the wisdom of it sometimes, trying to juggle a physically active job with this extreme fatigue is not easy, but the aftermath of all the hard effort in succesful competition makes it all worthwhile.....Its just the nature of the beast really....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭bourne99


    okay, fair enough you're right about everything you said there - especially when you mention Derval O'Rourke - who was awesome in Berlin. She gave it 110% and yep, without that stage and those around her, I doubt she might have performed so well.

    But just to clarify, when I see this thread - for some reason I picture a forty-something year old guy, totally unfit - but who was once upon a time a fast runner in school. He's got a wife and kids now, and a mortgage, and works like hell. He has no time to train - because he works, and works, and works. He doesnt socialise because his kids are his life. He wants to do the marathon, simply because he always wanted to do a marathon - no other reason. He finds a race that fits into his calendar. He takes to the line and for the next four hours - he goes like hell. Sure he's not the fastest and sure he keeps having to walk every now and then. He hasn't done it before and he doesn't really know what he's doing. At mile 16 he's wondering why he did it at all. At mile 18 he wants to stop. At mile 19 he remembers that he always wanted to complete a marathon and he keeps going, on and on. Now is his chance! He goes faster at mile 20,21,22 than before - but he struggles again at mile 23 and 24. But he sees familiar sites and people he knows, who cheer him on - and giving every single bit of energy and strength in his body, he puts one foot on front of the other - over and over until finally the finish is in sight. He manages a final sprint and crosses the line, exhausted. His lips are blue. But he's done it. His time is 4 hours 25 mins - but that doesn't matter because never has he looked at his watch. The next day he's back in work. They cheer him, he laughs, but it means nothing to him because he did it for himself.

    Now, I'm not that guy. But I know that guy. Sure, if he had all the training in the world - maybe he could have gone an hour faster. Would it have made the marathon harder? No, I doubt it - I'd say it would have made the marathon easier. Now to others, what he did might have been a walk in the park - but it certainly wasn't to him. And that's the reason why I get annoyed - because I can't even contemplate how people could then say to this guy that's a 'non-achievement'. What's more, why would they want to say it? That's the thing that grates me. Why would anyone *want* to knock it and therefore knock him? Is life not hard enough for some?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭eon1208


    FWIW I agree - but marathons as an athletic achievement would surely be restricted to sub 2:20 runners, wouldn't it? International class elites.

    Lifestyle achievement is a different thing, open to all.
    Is that statement a joke..How many native irishmen ran sub 2.20 marathon this year or even native britons for that matter. By this definition a guy in his 30's running 2.36 or a guy in his 40's running 2.45 is not an athletic achievement... Thats ludicrous


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    eon1208 wrote: »
    Is that statement a joke..How many native irishmen ran sub 2.20 marathon this year or even native britons for that matter. By this definition a guy in his 30's running 2.36 or a guy in his 40's running 2.45 is not an athletic achievement... Thats ludicrous

    Context, context, context... A point was made differentiating between a personal achievement and an athletic one. I was pointing out that if you draw that distinction, if you say that only times faster than X are athletic achievments then you need to decide where to draw it - after all a true athletic achievement in a marathon is really only up at the sharp end of the field, the top 10 for example.

    I am not going to get dragged into this again - it's just going round and round and round....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭eon1208


    Context, context, context... A point was made differentiating between a personal achievement and an athletic one. I was pointing out that if you draw that distinction, if you say that only times faster than X are athletic achievments then you need to decide where to draw it - after all a true athletic achievement in a marathon is really only up at the sharp end of the field, the top 10 for example.

    I am not going to get dragged into this again - it's just going round and round and round....
    With due respect most informed athletic observers look far beyond the top 10 for examples of athleticism. The top 10 is usually the preserve of altitude born and reared africans with the odd interloper like baldini, Hall, Ritzenhein. Obviously this depends on what city or championship marathon you choose as a control but by and large it holds true....I dont agree with your circus roundabout analogy, informed debate is always interesting.....even ones that return to the same point in a circle


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    eon1208 wrote: »
    With due respect most informed athletic observers look far beyond the top 10 for examples of athleticism. The top 10 is usually the preserve of altitude born and reared africans with the odd interloper like baldini, Hall, Ritzenhein. Obviously this depends on what city or championship marathon you choose as a control but by and large it holds true....I dont agree with your circus roundabout analogy, informed debate is always interesting.....even ones that return to the same point in a circle

    I'm not (and have never claimed to be) an informed athletic observer. I think I've seen 2 races on TV in the last few years (both marathons in the last Olympics). While the achievements and times of teh elite runners leaves me in awe I am not an athletics follower or supporter, I'm just a runner.

    But the quote that is bothering you was in response to one where someone was giving out that 6 or 8 hour marathons were not athletic and that the marathon was an athletic event.

    My response to that was intended as a "well where do you say athletic achievements start" comment, as in if you are going to be strict about it it would need to be at elite international standard, ie 2:20.

    In reality of course a time below that is an athletic achievement - wasn't the first Irish woman home in Dublin in the 2:40 - 2:45 range? But if you count that then how about the vet categories - is a sub 3 by a 50 year old an athletic achievement? What about a 6 hour marathon by someone with a replacement hip? Or an 8 hour marathon by an obese smoker?

    And round and round it goes.

    I agree - informed debate is interesting but repetition of teh same opposing arguments with no possible end point is a bit too much like PS unions and the Govt for my liking!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭eon1208


    I'm not (and have never claimed to be) an informed athletic observer. I think I've seen 2 races on TV in the last few years (both marathons in the last Olympics). While the achievements and times of teh elite runners leaves me in awe I am not an athletics follower or supporter, I'm just a runner.

    But the quote that is bothering you was in response to one where someone was giving out that 6 or 8 hour marathons were not athletic and that the marathon was an athletic event.

    My response to that was intended as a "well where do you say athletic achievements start" comment, as in if you are going to be strict about it it would need to be at elite international standard, ie 2:20.

    In reality of course a time below that is an athletic achievement - wasn't the first Irish woman home in Dublin in the 2:40 - 2:45 range? But if you count that then how about the vet categories - is a sub 3 by a 50 year old an athletic achievement? What about a 6 hour marathon by someone with a replacement hip? Or an 8 hour marathon by an obese smoker?

    And round and round it goes.

    I agree - informed debate is interesting but repetition of teh same opposing arguments with no possible end point is a bit too much like PS unions and the Govt for my liking!
    I agree there, there will always be opposing sides..Due respect to everybody who tries is important....We will debate again


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭celestial


    bourne99 wrote: »

    But just to clarify, when I see this thread - for some reason I picture a forty-something year old guy, totally unfit - but who was once upon a time a fast runner in school. He's got a wife and kids now, and a mortgage, and works like hell. He has no time to train - because he works, and works, and works. He doesnt socialise because his kids are his life. He wants to do the marathon, simply because he always wanted to do a marathon - no other reason. He finds a race that fits into his calendar. He takes to the line and for the next four hours - he goes like hell. Sure he's not the fastest and sure he keeps having to walk every now and then. He hasn't done it before and he doesn't really know what he's doing. At mile 16 he's wondering why he did it at all. At mile 18 he wants to stop. At mile 19 he remembers that he always wanted to complete a marathon and he keeps going, on and on. Now is his chance! He goes faster at mile 20,21,22 than before - but he struggles again at mile 23 and 24. But he sees familiar sites and people he knows, who cheer him on - and giving every single bit of energy and strength in his body, he puts one foot on front of the other - over and over until finally the finish is in sight. He manages a final sprint and crosses the line, exhausted. His lips are blue. But he's done it. His time is 4 hours 25 mins - but that doesn't matter because never has he looked at his watch. The next day he's back in work. They cheer him, he laughs, but it means nothing to him because he did it for himself.

    Now, I'm not that guy. But I know that guy. Sure, if he had all the training in the world - maybe he could have gone an hour faster. Would it have made the marathon harder? No, I doubt it - I'd say it would have made the marathon easier. Now to others, what he did might have been a walk in the park - but it certainly wasn't to him. And that's the reason why I get annoyed - because I can't even contemplate how people could then say to this guy that's a 'non-achievement'. What's more, why would they want to say it? That's the thing that grates me. Why would anyone *want* to knock it and therefore knock him? Is life not hard enough for some?

    Great post. Anyone who would diminish that kind of achievement is...pretty much just a twat! I don't see many or anyone like that on here though, which is great.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    The thing about internet discussions is you can't win. You won't change other peoples minds no matter how worked up you get.

    Peoples opinions on what constitutes a decent attempt at a marathon differ wildly and they invoke hugely emotive responses.

    Take a deep breath, realise that regardless which side you're on that you're not going to get people to agree with you, all that will happen is people stop reading the thread :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    tunney wrote: »
    The thing about internet discussions is you can't win.

    I disagree. Everyone knows the NAZIs hated people who entered marathons just to complete them. Hitler himself was a 2:45 man.

    And the nazis were BAD.

    So that proves my point.

    And I win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,296 ✭✭✭pauldry


    So someone who returns from a long injury layoff and does the marathon coz they paid for it is a failure?

    Every single person who completes the distance is achieving no matter the time. Thats the beauty of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    pauldry wrote: »
    Every single person who completes the distance is achieving no matter the time. Thats the beauty of it.

    Really? Where's my medal for my running last Thursday? I'm still waiting :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭hunnymonster


    MrCreosote wrote: »
    .... nazis .....

    Is this the first instance of Godwin's law we've had on A/R/T?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,556 ✭✭✭plodder


    Tingle wrote: »
    Anytime I finish a race its across the line I look at to see where I came, the time is secondary. It seems its no longer cool these days to be competitive or to want to always win and the old moral victory seems to carry as much weight. Many people focus too much on times and have forgotten how to compete. Thats just my opinion.
    I agree with that post, and I have to say watching the 3:00 -3:30 finishers at the DCM this year, I found it a tiny bit disappointing to see people at that level, holding hands, crossing the finish line (though there weren't many). Having said that, the marathon is different. It's a huge event, and does it make that much difference if you finish in 1456th place or 1457th? What does it mean if you came 1400th last year (with fewer competitors). For most people, it is about the personal achievement, partly because of the scale of the event.

    I think there's room for both ways of looking at it. But, the competitive side could be encouraged (and recognised) a bit more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭donothoponpop


    Is this the first instance of Godwin's law we've had on A/R/T?

    Godwin's Law? Isn't that the law that states that once a discussion reaches a comparison to Nazis or Hitler, its usefulness is over?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭DustyBin


    Is this the first instance of Godwin's law we've had on A/R/T?
    Godwin's Law? Isn't that the law that states that once a discussion reaches a comparison to Nazis or Hitler, its usefulness is over?

    Please

    Just had a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    At last, a reason to close the thread??

    there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.


    Thanks for that Hunnymonster, never heard of Godwin's law before


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    DustyBin wrote: »
    Please

    Just had a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    At last, a reason to close the thread??





    Thanks for that Hunnymonster, never heard of Godwin's law before

    I think its time to get the FAI, Bono and/or the politicians in to settle this debate as it seems to be going nowhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭pete_mcs


    Its a myth to think that someone talking 5 or 6 hours to complete a marathon is taking the event lightly. If anyone has walked or ran for that amount of time will testify that it is tough going. You spend longer suffering from affects of "Hitting the wall". I think its a great achievement for anyone to finish a marathon in their "goal" time. If you find the challenge of a marathon to eay then take that step up to a Ultra Marathon, or try a Triathlon.
    Please do not belittle runners/joggers achievements.
    PS, I have a 3.04 Dublin Marathon time, but are slowly working my way back to fitness planning to complete the Conemarathon in April.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    pete_mcs wrote: »
    PS, I have a 3.04 Dublin Marathon time

    Don't worry, some day you'll run a marathon I'm sure :)

    Edit( this was a joke. Think this thread is dead )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭Lex Luther


    pete_mcs wrote: »
    Its a myth to think that someone talking 5 or 6 hours to complete a marathon is taking the event lightly. If anyone has walked or ran for that amount of time will testify that it is tough going. You spend longer suffering from affects of "Hitting the wall". I think its a great achievement for anyone to finish a marathon in their "goal" time. If you find the challenge of a marathon to eay then take that step up to a Ultra Marathon, or try a Triathlon.
    Please do not belittle runners/joggers achievements.
    PS, I have a 3.04 Dublin Marathon time, but are slowly working my way back to fitness planning to complete the Conemarathon in April.

    just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water...............aargh a sudden attack on a premise/arguement nobody actually made in the first place !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭pete_mcs


    Lex Luther wrote: »
    just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water...............aargh a sudden attack on a premise/arguement nobody actually made in the first place !

    The original article was saying that slow marathon runners were running the sport for the real athletes. I believe that was the argument at the start! :confused:The point I was trying to make, all be it without ant success was that it should be just an achievement to finish, if that is what your goal is. Your own individual goal should be the only thing that is important to you.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    After 140 posts of discussion, what has been proven?.... precisely nothing!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    04072511 wrote: »
    After 140 posts of discussion, what has been proven?.... precisely nothing!

    Chocolate cake is preferred by 57% of respondents to carrot cake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭DustyBin


    tunney wrote: »
    Don't worry, some day you'll run a marathon I'm sure :)
    tunney wrote: »
    Chocolate cake is preferred by 57% of respondents to carrot cake.


    Tunney two very witty posts - I like - perhaps we could turn this into a 'one-liner joke' thread instead?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 270 ✭✭Lex Luther


    pete_mcs wrote: »
    The original article was saying that slow marathon runners were running the sport for the real athletes. I believe that was the argument at the start! :confused:The point I was trying to make, all be it without ant success was that it should be just an achievement to finish, if that is what your goal is. Your own individual goal should be the only thing that is important to you.;)

    I was referring to the comment

    "Its a myth to think that someone talking 5 or 6 hours to complete a marathon is taking the event lightly"

    Not sure anyone ever quite took THAT position

    Most of this ( soooooo verrrry longgggggg thread) has been concerned with the difference between people taking 5/6 hours because they couldn't be bothered/ find the time to train and prepare properly (= for some little or no achievement)and people taking 5/6 hours having overcome weight/medical/disability/age/insert here challenge (= for all very great achievement).

    LL


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭smunchkins


    hello,
    I just stumbled upon this board whilst trying to find the Aware 10k (no, wait, make that 9k!) discussion; and I must admit I find the debate quite fascinating. I also think I'm of quite a rare breed, somebody who has been on both sides of the fence.
    I've done 3 marathons in the last 18 months, and trained really hard for the first two. Unfortunately my old shoes failed me for the Cork one this year, and I damaged my knee very badly about half way through. I was so disappointed to not improve my time from last year, but did manage to complete the race in about 5-30.
    Now lets jump forward 4 months to the Dublin marathon. I really wanted to do it, but the knee, and other injuries kept me from training for it, or even doing one practice run, as I was so fearful of damaging myself further. So so frustrating!
    I'd already paid my money for it, so picked up my pack and thought I'd play it by ear on the day. (and basically walk, even though this would drive me nuts)

    So, I participated in the Dublin marathon with no training whatsoever. And yes, I am therefore one of those really annoying people "serious runners" have been complaining about. And I feel great shame for turning into one of them. (I'm pretty experienced and know it wasn't the best idea, but the lure of the race was too strong.)

    But please keep us in it!

    I don't think I have ever been happier than jogging along beside Trinity with 10,000 others and AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" blasting in my ears. I couldn't stop smiling throughout the race (which I ran about half of the way, with only a blister to show). The Dublin one was my slowest time at 5-40 (I'm getting worse rather than better), but my best experience and the race I have most enjoyed.(As well as come out of with the least amount of injuries)

    I'm not proud of my lack of prep, but on the other hand, I'm so glad I did it. Its given me fresh inspiration to try for 3 next year; and also to remind myself to actually enjoy what I'm doing and not be constantly watching the clock.

    Slow joggers and walkers can be extremely frustrating when they are in the wrong place (always at the front for the start it seems), but I hope you can sort of look at them as humble apprentices. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I love running for the huge sense of community and excitement at the start of each race, not for how fast everyone is going.

    You're going to get slackers and boasters in every walk of life. If you can't deal with it, go run only in the Boston or something.... :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭Ellian


    04072511 wrote: »
    A 4.15 guys IS racing a marathon. He/she is racing against his/her own expectations/ goals etc. Racing against himself.

    I think this is exactly the point. Every 10K, half marathon and marathon I have ever run is simply another attempt to beat my own personal best. None of my marathon times have ever been under 3.50. I figure that puts me almost right in the middle of the field. But I'm not particularly worried about people either in front of or behind me - I'm just competing against myself. On and as a sidebar, I think people can legitimately get pissed off with those competitors who rock up to the the sub 3.30 marker at the start line and then clog up the field for the first couple or three miles. That is a ball ache.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭Mac Cormaic


    I'd say the 3:15 to 3:45 guy or girl is giving it 100% effort. The 7:45 guy probably isnt.
    People think of "doing the marathon" as some feat of endurance which requires time, training, discipline and effort so when they see their lazy mate say he "did the marathon last weekend...no problem" it lessens all of our achievement a little.

    After I finished getting lunch after the Dublin marathon I went down to cheer on some of the runners who at that time were finishing 5.30/6.00nhr marathons. Some of them were giving everything they got to try to keep going. I thought it was inspirational that they were trying to complete something that was a little beyond their fitness levels. Watching some of them in their 50's and 60's finishing in 6 hrs, made me feel unfit thinking I should be running mine in 3 hrs at the most. I think the more people running in a marathon the greater atmosphere around in the morning. Running should be about enjoyment, and encouraging others to take up a healthy sport so they can feel good about themselves. Elite runner's are given the space at the front of the marathon, so they aren't held up in any way. I think we should be looking for greater participation, if only to encourage healthy lifestyles. Plus the more unfit runners taking part the greater chance I'll be in the top 20 % ;) . There'd be nothing worse if I was running a 3.30 marathon and coming last :) haha.


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