House fire, landlord has no insurance, who pays?

Offy

Recently I returned home to find the kitchen on fire. I called the fire brigade and waited outside. The fire was quickly put out and I called the landlord to notify him. I asked if he had insurance and he said that it ran out months ago and he couldnt afford to renew it at the time. He called around with his girlfriend and parents. When he looked around he asked if I was cooking chips as the chip pan was on the ring. I told him I was before I left the house but I thought I turned the ring off and moved the chip pan to a different ring. I wasnt sure and his mother and girlfriend were very aggressive in stating that I must have left it on the ring and not turned off the ring.
In the end I agreed this must have been the case and I also agreed to pay for the repairs. I had all the walls that were smoke damaged cleaned and painted. Ive had the kitchen ceiling repaired and re-plastered and the kitchen walls re-plastered. At the same time the electrician made a passing comment "thats the cause of your fire". I asked what he meant and he told me the junction box between the extractor and cooker was wired wrong.
A week previously the landlord had a new oven and hob installed by a handyman. It took him five hours to install it. I told my landlord what the electrician told me and he ignored me and changed the subject. Now it appears that the fire was not my fault but Ive handed out €2k in repairs. The kitchen cabinets still need replacing and the floor needs new tiles.
Last Monday the ceiling in the front room started leaking so I called my landlord to tell him. He asked if I thought the fire could have caused it. The next day the plummer said it was caused by a leaking tap in the upstairs bathroom. The landlord's mother then told me that it happened before but previously the landlord said he never had any trouble with the house before I moved in. Now my landlord wants me to rehire the plasterer and get the front room ceiling repaired but he hasnt offered to pay for it. He said he hopes the insurance company pays for the leak as he has it insured now.
My question is this, as I offered to foot the bills when I thought I was at fault am I legelly obliged to pay for the damages now that it become clear it was the landlords fault for not hiring an electrician to install a hob? If Im not legally obliged to pay can I recover any of the money Ive already spent?

_Kooli_

You should have got an expert to determine the cause of the fire.
You dont actually know what the cause was really.

So it should have been the landlord who paid in the first place.
I dont really know what you can do now though apart from just move out if he asks you for more money.

jeepers101

Thats a toughie. Citizens advice bureau gives free legal aid usually on a weekly basis.

T-Square

Trash-the-place and move out.
QED

The_Conductor

T-Square wrote: »

Trash-the-place and move out.
QED

Banned.

eth0_

Why on earth did you admit liability never mind give him any cash without having the fire brigade tell you what the cause of the fire was?! You've marked yourself out as a soft touch and the landlord is taking advantage of that fact.

If you can get that electrician to put in writing that bad wiring was the cause of the fire, then you can put it to your landlord that he should return that money to you.
If he won't, move out and take him to the small claims court.

I'm sure he has already broken the law by not having a rental property insured.

Bob Z

Hi op it's sounds like the landlord and family bullied you and your were caught on the hop. Have you friends or family that could go along with you next time?

Maybe the landlord is lying about having no insurance?

You should contact a solicitor maybe or threold or cab to find out your rights

Offy

Thats possible. He claims to only have €200 to his name yet he has been to Poland and France on holidays since the fire. I think its time to visit a solicitor.

astrofool

He needs insurance if he has a mortgage, otherwise, it's up to him. You should never have admitted liability without an investigation, and you shouldn't have paid.

Only thing you can do now to reclaim your money is to take it to the courts, but finding liability now, with all the repair work done, will be almost impossible.

Offy

The landlord called tonight with an electrician who made the claim that chip pans are illegal to use in Ireland. Has anyone ever heard of chip pans been made illegal?

Cadiz

Threshold and the free legal aid people (assuming you can't afford a solicitor). You need proper accredited advice on this.

duckysauce

Offy wrote: »

The landlord called tonight with an electrician who made the claim that chip pans are illegal to use in Ireland. Has anyone ever heard of chip pans been made illegal?

the landlord is taking you for a ride , did he register you with the ptrb when you signed up? if he didnt hes probably not paying tax mention the taxman to him and he will cahnge his attitude, but go to the citizens advice centre as some else said. The guy is just a bully dont take it , get your money back off him,, Two holidays since fire :eek:

The_Conductor

bobthebuilder04
lcooke
bubblyboy

IP Address match.....

All to be banned from Accommodation & Property, and IP blocked.

S.

cleveroli

If he didnt tell you when you were renting no chip pans then you werent in the wrong. You sound like a decent guy who just got caught - I agree with the citizens advice route - he should have had the place insured what if the house was burgled and all your stuff taken???? If you can, get a report off the fire brigade they'll have to have found the source of the fire - and i'd suggest you tell the landlord that you are considering withholding your rent until you make back the money you have already spent he cant throw you out and you sound like a decent tenant to me so he should be glad he has you and not the likes of the fella who said trash the place- what an idiot!

Kipperhell

cleveroli wrote: »

If he didnt tell you when you were renting no chip pans then you werent in the wrong. You sound like a decent guy who just got caught - I agree with the citizens advice route - he should have had the place insured what if the house was burgled and all your stuff taken???? If you can, get a report off the fire brigade they'll have to have found the source of the fire - and i'd suggest you tell the landlord that you are considering withholding your rent until you make back the money you have already spent he cant throw you out and you sound like a decent tenant to me so he should be glad he has you and not the likes of the fella who said trash the place- what an idiot!

Where to even start with this?:rolleyes:

Landlords do not have to have insurance for renters content. It is advisable for entire property damage but may easily exclude fire damage of a relatively small nature .

You are not allowed by law to withhold rent in the manner you are suggesting.

The landlord may simply not be willing to claim on his insurance rather than not actually have any.

No matter what there should be a report of some kind stating likely cause of the fire. If the tenant is at fault it is his cost if it is poor workmanship it is not the landlords cost either it is the workman's. However if the landlord used an uninsured workman it may be his cost.

I still think it is odd anybody would assume responsibility with such ease

cleveroli

Im with the tenant on this one - the landlord sounds like a right assh**e!

Hes chancing his arm and he needs to be put right!! I agree that the tenant paid up very easily but then he did think it was his fault with the chip pan so guilt may have had a part to play in this. If the landlord has cheated this guy into thinking that he should fork out for the damage I def think he should either pay back the money - some chance- or let the tenant stay rent free until the 2 grand is paid back. Id also def. mention the tax man cos a skinflint who doesnt bother with insurance probably aint payin the tax man either!!! Landlords like this give every landlord a bad name -

oldyouth

I hadn't seen this thread earlier but I think you urgently want to engage a Public Loss Adjuster. These guys act on behalf of the client in establishing the exact cause of the loss, the amount required to remedy and then negotiate for a settlement. The negotiation is usually with an insurer but they don't mind taking on landlords and the like as well

They will agree a fee in advance with you and often waive it if they can secure costs against the other party.

Trust me, you will get nowhere on your own without the backup of experienced and qualified loss adjusters. I'm not one but I would suggest these lads http://www.balcombes.ie/

Offy

Kipperhell wrote: »

Where to even start with this?:rolleyes:

Landlords do not have to have insurance for renters content. It is advisable for entire property damage but may easily exclude fire damage of a relatively small nature .

You are not allowed by law to withhold rent in the manner you are suggesting.

The landlord may simply not be willing to claim on his insurance rather than not actually have any.

No matter what there should be a report of some kind stating likely cause of the fire. If the tenant is at fault it is his cost if it is poor workmanship it is not the landlords cost either it is the workman's. However if the landlord used an uninsured workman it may be his cost.

I still think it is odd anybody would assume responsibility with such ease

The chap that installed the cooker makes gates for a living, he is not insured and probably not qualified to conduct electrical work. The landlord absolutely does not want this chap to be brought to court.
I took responsibility simply because I didnt know at the time what caused the fire and assumed as I was the tenant that I was responsible for the upkeep of the house.
The landlord claims he is not insured but I have no way of knowing for sure, I believe him.
The landlord is not registered with PRTB.
The landlord offered to allow me to have the house rent free till the repair bill is cleared. (fair play is good sport!)

I spoke with two solicitors today.
Point 1: Chip pans are NOT illegal in Ireland.
Point 2: Unless the landlord can prove I purposely started the fire it is not my responsibility to pay for the repairs.

Cadiz

Good for you Offy, glad you had a reasonably good outcome.

chillin_penguin

Well done One up for the little guy

chillin_penguin

On another not your landlord shouldnt really have brought his mother or his gf along with him. Even though you are renting the house he cant just show up and bring in who he likes (i know you invited him that time) but he should by right give you at least a weeks notice that he is going to show up. Unless he keeps a room in the house in that case he can do as he pleases

Kipperhell

Offy wrote: »

The chap that installed the cooker makes gates for a living, he is not insured and probably not qualified to conduct electrical work. The landlord absolutely does not want this chap to be brought to court.
I took responsibility simply because I didnt know at the time what caused the fire and assumed as I was the tenant that I was responsible for the upkeep of the house.
The landlord claims he is not insured but I have no way of knowing for sure, I believe him.
The landlord is not registered with PRTB.
The landlord offered to allow me to have the house rent free till the repair bill is cleared. (fair play is good sport!)

I spoke with two solicitors today.
Point 1: Chip pans are NOT illegal in Ireland.
Point 2: Unless the landlord can prove I purposely started the fire it is not my responsibility to pay for the repairs.

Never claimed chip pans were illegal. I doubt a solicitor would say you are only responsible for your actions if you intended to start a fire.
I said the landlord is responsible for the workman's work if he didn't use a professional. It does require the landlord to know this or not to have checked a reasonable amount.
Whether the landlord was registered or not has no bearing on this.

Did the landlord change his mind or was it changed because of your actions?

Note my post accused you of nothing just refuting claims of insurance and dismissing suggested illegal activity.

Offy

Kipperhell wrote: »

Never claimed chip pans were illegal. I doubt a solicitor would say you are only responsible for your actions if you intended to start a fire.
I said the landlord is responsible for the workman's work if he didn't use a professional. It does require the landlord to know this or not to have checked a reasonable amount.
Whether the landlord was registered or not has no bearing on this.

Did the landlord change his mind or was it changed because of your actions?

Note my post accused you of nothing just refuting claims of insurance and dismissing suggested illegal activity.

I never said you claimed chip pan were illegal, I claimed the electrician the landlord hired Tuesday night claimed chip pans are illegal - read post #10. The same electrician claimed that the fire was started by drops of condensation falling from the extractor fan an onto the chip pan - highly unlikely as the extractor fan would have sucked the steam out of the kitchen.
It was oldyouth that suggested I contact http://www.balcombes.ie/ and they said that if the fire was not my fault OR the fire was accidental that its the landlords responsibility to foot the bills for the repairs to the house (walls, ceiling, etc. - not my personal belongings). My own solicitor made the same claim.
The landlord did NOT use a professional to install the new cooker as stated previously, he knew the chap that he hired to install the cooker was not a professional as they are friends.
I never thought your post accused me of anything. Chill out dude!

Kipperhell

Offy wrote: »

It was oldyouth that suggested I contact http://www.balcombes.ie/ and they said that if the fire was not my fault OR the fire was accidental that its the landlords responsibility to foot the bills for the repairs to the house (walls, ceiling, etc. - not my personal belongings).

You know that doesn't make any sense, the fire could have been your fault and accidental. It doesn't sound like a solicitor would say it as you are describing it. It actually flies against all logic applied to everything else. Try and apply it to any other accidental damage . Not saying it isn't true but it seems very contradictory and doesn't make much sense. If you accidentally damage a property you are liable from your deposit and further liable for additional expenses so it seems strange that if it is a fire things are different.

So did the landlord just change his mind or did you threaten him legally for him to give you a rent free period?

ronaneire

Kipperhell wrote: »

You know that doesn't make any sense, the fire could have been your fault and accidental.quote]
The reason the landlord should have HIS premises insured against loss or damage.
Accidents happen, they are not caused.

Offy

I told him I wanted the details of the chap that installed the cooker as I planned to claim from this insurance. He refuses to pass on the details and he also refuses to give me his postal address. The cause of the fire is unclear to say the least.
As ronaneire said "The reason the landlord should have HIS premises insured against loss or damage.
Accidents happen, they are not caused. "
Perhaps you dont like the advice I've recieved from two solicitors, thats up to you. If you have such a problem with it then I suggest you talk to a solicitor and find out for yourself.
On a seperate note I feel from your last two posts that you are trying to flame bait me therefore Im going to ignore any more posts from you.

Moonbeam

Back in college we had a house fire too.
It was also caused by a chip pan and not 100% our fault.
We paid 0 towards repairs and lived in the house rent free until the repairs were carried out as the house was not up to a rentable standard.
The kitchen was pretty ruined and the hall smoke damaged.

I would also report him to the prtb and don't forget to claim you rental tax credit;)

restaurants

_Kooli_ wrote: »

You should have got an expert to determine the cause of the fire.
You dont actually know what the cause was really.

So it should have been the landlord who paid in the first place.
I dont really know what you can do now though apart from just move out if he asks you for more money.

Talk to a Loss Assessor. Those guys can tell you quickly if it is worth following.

duckysauce

Moonbeam wrote: »

Back in college we had a house fire too.
It was also caused by a chip pan and not 100% our fault.
We paid 0 towards repairs and lived in the house rent free until the repairs were carried out as the house was not up to a rentable standard.
The kitchen was pretty ruined and the hall smoke damaged.

I would also report him to the prtb and don't forget to claim you rental tax credit;)

yeah the rental tax credit adds up nicely just applied for mine and was glad with what i will get back

Offy

Latest development: The landlord poped round tonight to give me notice, he has decided to sell the house and get an evaluator to look at the repairs to determine if the tradesmen charged a fair price before he reimburses me! Thankfully I have to see my solicitor tomorrow and I know that's he's going to want to take him to court. I think I should also charge him for the tax credits I should be due, after all why should I loose out because he's not paying tax? Im more in shock now than the night of the fire.

Cadiz

That's stuff about the evaluation sounds like delaying tactics. His issue with tradesman shouldn't delay him paying the he owes you. But as for getting that or tax credits out of a cowboy like that without costing yourself money in legal fees...

The only slight upside to the recession is messers like this not having the market in their favour anymore.