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Some Questions for The Public Sector Bashers

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24567…10

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    #32
    Arnold Layne
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭Arnold Layne


    dresden8 wrote: »
    How many benchmarking processes resulted in pay increases in the public sector?

    A similar question can be asked in relation to Private Sector workers, i.e. how many Private Sector workers received bonuses every year and I mean real Private Sector workers.


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    #33
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    dresden8 wrote: »
    6.1 billion is irrelevant?

    All I've done here is counter the lies and bull**** that "the great" Eddie Hobbs, IBEC and the government are spreading about the public sector.

    There is a propaganda war going on at the moment and public sector workers do not like being villified by sectoral interests intent on scapegoating us.

    The €6.1 billion in the black economy, right? Sure, go for it; the public sector employees whose job it is should get that money, absolutely.:pac:

    But leaving that aside, dont you realise that fighting the private sector will do nothing for your cause. Its entirley irrelevent. I appreciate you want to correct some possile misperceptions that others have created about the PS.

    But, at the end of the day, even if these issues are clarified in your favour, you remain in the same position. The Government must cut its spending. Exactly how much comes from wages is a matter for discussion but it has to happen. And engaging in industrial action will only hurt everyone, including thePS, at the end of the day.


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    #34
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Why did you not try and get a job in the Irish Public Sector during the boom and when they were recruiting quite a lot?

    The public sector mentality has always depressed me. I am ambitious and don't want to be surrounded by people trying to drag me down to their level.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Were you so happy with your private sector bonuses and rapid promotions that I know many people were getting?

    I have never gotten a bonus, however I do like working for multinationals.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Did the Public Sector seem an area that was not exciting enough for your undoubted talents?

    In general, yes. I would work as a researcher for the military though.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Why were you not opening threads on forums / fora such as this venting your opinion about how the Public sector were going to ruin the country?

    I have always thought the public sector was ****ed, but the country used to be able to afford it.

    The problem with you and most public sector workers is you think we're jealous; we're not. We just understand we can't afford you in your current form anymore.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Were you objecting to the rapidly increasing house prices and the obvious effects this was having on mortgages and consequently wages in this economy?

    Yes, I have been worried about the bubble for years.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Did you vent your feelings about Public Sector workers the last time you had an ineraction with a nurse, teacher, guard, dole office staff, social worker etc.?

    We could afford their wages the last time I had to talk to a Garda or nurse.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Are your opinions on the Public Sector workers influenced by the slow drip feed of negatives being conveniently and continuously being released to the media in recent times?

    The constant negative news obviously isn't helping your cause.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    What are your thoughts regarding those uindividuals that have avoided paying their taxes for many years in this country in spite of earning many multiples of Public Sector wages.

    Not sure how this is relevant, but obvously tax dodgers are dodgy.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    What are your thoughts about workers in banks whose effects on tis economy is much more stark but are now getting pay rises?

    Obviously people in the banks (the ones which have been bailed out) should not be getting raises or bonuses.


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    #35
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    dvpower wrote: »
    What? Isn't it taken from gross income?
    It is tax deductible, apologies PurpleGorilla


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    #36
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    dresden8 wrote: »
    6.1 billion is irrelevant?

    All I've done here is counter the lies and bull**** that "the great" Eddie Hobbs, IBEC and the government are spreading about the public sector.

    There is a propaganda war going on at the moment and public sector workers do not like being villified by sectoral interests intent on scapegoating us.

    Public services are spreading more propaganda and lies then IBEC and government
    Just received flyer, which repeats one-to-one lies from this site
    http://www.7stepstotransform.ie/
    But just few points
    a)
    A third of public service workers earn less than €40,000 a year
    Average industrial salary is 23K, and two thirds of PS workers are getting much more then that
    b)
    The OECD also found that, by and large, Irish public service is efficient and delivers good value for money.
    This is what OECD says
    OECD Economic survey of Ireland 2008: Adapting government spending to lower revenue growth
    Public expenditure growth needs to slow and efficiency must be increased

    All figures and facts from IMAPCT are from pre-benchmarking area, mostly from 2005
    IBEC and government are using fresh figures.
    I understand that most of PS workers don’t like to see it, but so far nobody gave any good reason why all figures from government and IBEC are incorrect

    Sorry, but most lies are coming from public sector


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    #37
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    drkpower wrote: »
    The €6.1 billion in the black economy, right? Sure, go for it; the public sector employees whose job it is should get that money, absolutely.:pac:

    But leaving that aside, dont you realise that fighting the private sector will do nothing for your cause. Its entirley irrelevent. I appreciate you want to correct some possile misperceptions that others have created about the PS.

    But, at the end of the day, even if these issues are clarified in your favour, you remain in the same position. The Government must cut its spending. Exactly how much comes from wages is a matter for discussion but it has to happen. And engaging in industrial action will only hurt everyone, including thePS, at the end of the day.

    What you'll find is exactly the same thing that happened in the 1980's.

    FF will cut the number of public servants going after those people and then it's payola for FF and IBEC's friends.

    I like the way benchmarking and average pay is thrown out in an endless stream of posts but when counter arguements are put forward they become totally irrelevant.

    FF, IBEC, ISME and "the great Eddie Hobbs have already set out their stall. the public service are going to get "hurt", it's time to stand up and tell them we'll take a "fair" share, we won't be demonised and singled out.

    The "average" public sector employee has taken a paycut so that AIB and BOI can have pay rises paid from the public purse.

    How do you think that plays?


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    #38
    tommmy1979
    Closed Accounts Posts: 420 ✭✭tommmy1979


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Why did you not try and get a job in the Irish Public Sector during the boom and when they were recruiting quite a lot?

    I did ! I did !... After seeing the salary scale they were offering i remember thinking that getting the Job would be like winning the
    f*cking lottery and going into semi-retirement at the same time:eek:... oh well:(

    T


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    #39
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Public services are spreading more propaganda and lies then IBEC and government
    Just received flyer, which repeats one-to-one lies from this site
    http://www.7stepstotransform.ie/
    But just few points
    a)

    Average industrial salary is 23K, and two thirds of PS workers are getting much more then that
    b)

    This is what OECD says
    OECD Economic survey of Ireland 2008: Adapting government spending to lower revenue growth


    All figures and facts from IMAPCT are from pre-benchmarking area, mostly from 2005
    IBEC and government are using fresh figures.
    I understand that most of PS workers don’t like to see it, but so far nobody gave any good reason why all figures from government and IBEC are incorrect

    (1) Sorry, but most lies are coming from public sector
    (1) are you sure?
    the average industrial wage in Ireland would appear to be €32k, not €23k that you quote, where did you get €23k from?


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    #40
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    dresden8 wrote: »
    FF, IBEC, ISME and "the great Eddie Hobbs have already set out their stall. the public service are going to get "hurt", it's time to stand up and tell them we'll take a "fair" share, we won't be demonised and singled out.

    The "average" public sector employee has taken a paycut so that AIB and BOI can have pay rises paid from the public purse.

    How do you think that plays?

    It doesnt play well. And you shouldnt be demonised.

    But it is not them versus us. You need to get away from that analysis. It will only do everyone harm. And incidentally, the Government laugh their ass off everytime a public sector worker sounds off against a private sector worker (or vice versa). The anger going sideways suits them perfectly. Dont fall for it.


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    #41
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Public services are spreading more propaganda and lies then IBEC and government

    Any stats on the number of lies told, or is this just another everybody knows?
    Count Dooku wrote: »
    a)

    Average industrial salary is 23K, and two thirds of PS workers are getting much more then that

    Links to stats please, If you post "facts" you must be able to back them up.
    Count Dooku wrote: »
    b)

    This is what OECD says
    OECD Economic survey of Ireland 2008: Adapting government spending to lower revenue growth

    Makes sense to me. Your point?

    Count Dooku wrote: »
    All figures and facts from IMAPCT are from pre-benchmarking area, mostly from 2005
    IBEC and government are using fresh figures.
    I understand that most of PS workers don’t like to see it, but so far nobody gave any good reason why all figures from government and IBEC are incorrect

    Sorry, but most lies are coming from public sector

    Ooh, hoisted by your own petard. Benchmarking awards became effective from 2001 and were payable in 2003 and then on a phased basis.

    http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=511

    Another "everyone knows" I suppose.

    Seriously, the level of ignorance around this whole issue is staggering, considering the importance of the issue and the number of internet "experts".


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    #42
    The_Thing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    (Q) - Why did you not try and get a job in the Irish Public Sector during the boom and when they were recruiting quite a lot?

    (A) - Pride:
    Men were too proud to be seen sweeping the streets, collecting other people's filthy bins, cleaning drains, picking up dead animals off the roads, etc, etc.

    Let me explain my answer, jimd2.

    I have been employed with a local authority for almost twenty years in their outdoor section and the very first task I was given when I started was sweeping the streets. Apart from the fact the streets needed cleaning this was also a test - a test to see if you really wanted the job and that you'd stick it out. You would be suprised the number of guys who would do a disappearing act as soon as they were told to go sweeping.

    On another occasion I was asked about a litter warden's job that had been adverised. When I mentioned the fact that it would involve picking up waste which had been illegaly dumped and examine it for evidence to prosecute those involved, the person asking was no longer interested in applying.

    If the above was happening in my local authority then I am fairly certain that it was happening all over the country too.


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    #43
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    drkpower wrote: »
    It doesnt play well. And you shouldnt be demonised.

    But it is not them versus us. You need to get away from that analysis. It will only do everyone harm. And incidentally, the Government laugh their ass off everytime a public sector worker sounds off against a private sector worker (or vice versa). The anger going sideways suits them perfectly. Dont fall for it.

    I think you'll find we didn't start it. Public servants are on the defensive on this forum and in the media.


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    #44
    glaston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭glaston


    The "average" public sector employee has taken a paycut so that AIB and BOI can have pay rises paid from the public purse.

    If you are refering to the pension levy then I disagree.

    The public sector pension system wasnt and still isnt sustainable (imo). Increased life expectancy, rediculously young retirement ages and guaranteed payouts being the problems, not the bankers.


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    #45
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    glaston wrote: »
    If you are refering to the pension levy then I disagree.

    The public sector pension system wasnt and still isnt sustainable (imo). Increased life expectancy, rediculously young retirement ages and guaranteed payouts being the problems, not the bankers.

    Sigh.

    The "pension levy" has nothing to do with pensions.

    It does not go into a pension pot.

    It confers no pension entitlements.

    It is levied against payments which are not pensionable.

    It is levied against employees who have no pension entitlements.


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    #46
    rugbyman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭rugbyman


    gerry28 wrote: »
    If public sector wages are cut there will be less money spent in the economy... VAT will fall further.

    Don't underestimate the psychological effect a paycut will have on the public sector - money will be hoarded even more than it is already.

    surely you are not suggesting that the government borrow more money to pay PS workers as usual, so as to keep some after tax wages in the loop, and that the government will benefit from the vat on these wages that will then be spent?
    regards ,
    Rugbyman


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    #47
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    glaston wrote: »
    If you are refering to the pension levy then I disagree.

    The public sector pension system wasnt and still isnt sustainable (imo). Increased life expectancy, rediculously young retirement ages and guaranteed payouts being the problems, not the bankers.
    the age one retires at is determined on the age you start work, for majority of PS.


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    #48
    HollyB
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    imme wrote: »
    the age one retires at is determined on the age you start work, for majority of PS.

    Not necessarily. In the Civil Service, the retirement age for recent entrants is 65, even if they enter before they turn 25. However, any years they work will not count towards their pension entitlement - they don't get an extra 1/80th of salary in their pension or an extra 3/80ths of salary in their lump sum for Year 41, Year 42, Year 43, etc, even though they'll still be paying superannuation and the pension levy.

    If somebody entered the Civil Service at age 18, they'd retire at 65 and they'd have to work 47 years for the same pension entitlement that somebody who joined at age 25 and worked for 40 years would get.


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    #49
    wicklowmale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭wicklowmale


    I think enough has been said in response to jimd's thread.

    It would be niave to think that the private sector should be the sole brunt of serious paycuts or reduced working hours/days, redundancies etc.

    Can jimd tell us why we (private sector) should accept this?

    Over 200,000 are now claiming dole, not one person has been let go in the public sector.

    In addition i don't see the problem with ppl starting to hoard onto some money, its called saving and ppl used to do it in the past to save for a rainy day.

    The irish have become a very greedy nation over the last 20 yrs and lost a lot of the values that made ireland so famous and attractive.


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    #50
    PJW
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭PJW


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Question for all of ye that have suddenly come out of the woodwork.......


    Answered and OWNED.


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    #51
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    wicklowmale wrote: »
    It would be niave to think that the private sector should be the sole brunt of serious paycuts
    Can jimd tell us why we (private sector) should accept this?.


    Enough contrary evidence of this claim is in the public domain to show that this is a lie and people who propagate it are liars.

    wicklowmale wrote: »
    Over 200,000 are now claiming dole, not one person has been let go in the public sector..

    Enough contrary evidence of this claim is in the public domain to show that this is a lie and people who propagate it are liars.

    wicklowmale wrote: »
    The irish have become a very greedy nation over the last 20 yrs and lost a lot of the values that made ireland so famous and attractive.

    This at least is true.


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    #52
    MaceFace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭MaceFace


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Question for all of ye that have suddenly come out of the woodwork to bash those of us working (very hard I might add) in the Public Sector....
    I will answer but I hope you actually listen to honest (hopefully sane opinion).
    BTW: Yes - many people in the public sector work a lot harder than a lot of people in the private sector, but it is very easy to slag off the public sector with so many low lives who do nothing all day or just play politics and are protected. The public sector needs to look at themselves and weed out these people in the same way the private sector would.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Why did you not try and get a job in the Irish Public Sector during the boom and when they were recruiting quite a lot?
    Besides job security and comparable wages, there is no reason to work there. I work in an industry that will allow me to grow my talents and hopefully one day achieve something I could never in the public sector (without playing the politics game). I am in the IT sector and imo no one serious about IT would go into the PS.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Were you so happy with your private sector bonuses and rapid promotions that I know many people were getting?
    I have had one bonus in the last 10 years and that was about 1.5% of my salary. There is no massive promotions. If there was then you would see the private sector full of chiefs and no Indians. It does happen in some places, but these companies always find out the hard way the problems this creates.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Did the Public Sector seem an area that was not exciting enough for your undoubted talents?
    Yes. I am in IT and what the hell would I be doing in the PS? Many of the jobs that are in this area are farmed out to consultant companies and the feedback I have had from the people who work for these consultant companies have led me to believe that people who work in IT in the PS are layabouts who do nothing most of the day or are not good at their jobs because they have no need to be (no promotion based on talent, no bonuses based on talent)
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Why were you not opening threads on forums / fora such as this venting your opinion about how the Public sector were going to ruin the country?
    Because the general public did not care in much the same way as Joe Soap on the street today doesn't care cause it doesn't affect them. If you were to say to people that we are borrowing €400m a week to run this country and that will mean that every man woman and child will have to pay an extra €100 a week and they saw this come out of their pay/welfare this would soon get their attention.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Were you objecting to the rapidly increasing house prices and the obvious effects this was having on mortgages and consequently wages in this economy?
    Yes. Big time. I have said since 2000 that the house prices in this country and ridiculous and I would be very happy to see house prices plummet to be what they should be (whether through rental yields or times salary) - and I am a house owner.

    jimd2 wrote: »
    Did you vent your feelings about Public Sector workers the last time you had an ineraction with a nurse, teacher, guard, dole office staff, social worker etc.?
    No because they will always play on your feelings about the job they do. It is interesting that you choose the front line jobs. Why not say about the bureaucrats or office workers?
    When the nurses went on strike for more pay a number of years ago I was completely against them. I revile people who go into a career and complain afterwards about it. Go in with your eyes open. Same for the Guards.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    Are your opinions on the Public Sector workers influenced by the slow drip feed of negatives being conveniently and continuously being released to the media in recent times?
    No. I know full well what is involved. I toyed with the idea of going into the PS back in 1999 when the IT bubble burst but when I found out what was involved I soon gave up. Don't believe that the frustration of people today is new.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    What are your thoughts regarding those uindividuals that have avoided paying their taxes for many years in this country in spite of earning many multiples of Public Sector wages.
    Send all tax dodgers to jail.
    If they have not done anything illegal I think it is very two faced to single out rich who used tax avoidance measures and not the ordinary people. Have you heard the adds on the radio for paylesstax.ie?
    I do though think the government give in too easily to the tax avoidance schemes.
    jimd2 wrote: »
    What are your thoughts about workers in banks whose effects on tis economy is much more stark but are now getting pay rises?
    [/QUOTE]
    They are wrong but again this is the governments fault - not the company. A bank is a private company like your local corner shop, just much bigger. The government should have been a lot stronger with them than they have.


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    #53
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    imme wrote: »
    (1) are you sure?
    the average industrial wage in Ireland would appear to be €32k, not €23k that you quote, where did you get €23k from?
    Sorry for typo
    It is 32K, but is not change anything –
    80% of PS worker have salary more the industrial average wage and average PS salary is only growing
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/civil-servants-got-47pc-pay-hike-in-past-year-1923550.html
    Rising wages will strengthen Government's case for cuts


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    #54
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Makes sense to me. Your point?
    My point is that PS workers deserves average salary not more then industrial average salary.
    If they want to have more – they have to work harder to create better condition for private sector. No advance payment as IMPACT is proposing. Civil servants will find thousands of explanations why they cannot achieve it.
    Lenihan decided to change his mind and increase taxes, without imposing any cuts on public sector. It is good. It means that country will be bankrupted much quicker and in two years time majority of PS workers will be happy to work for 1.84 per hour.


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    #55
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Sorry for typo
    It is 32K, but is not change anything –
    80% of PS worker have salary more the industrial average wage and average PS salary is only growing
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/civil-servants-got-47pc-pay-hike-in-past-year-1923550.html
    Rising wages will strengthen Government's case for cuts
    the Irish Indo article you reference says the average industrial wage is €42k. Whatever about using statistics to say whatever you want or to back up an argument, one seems to be able use the internet to prove anything. I found the €32k figure on a different site, not a government/official site.
    Anyway, 80% of PS staff do not earn the average industrial wage. Starting off grade in the PS is clerical officer, these people make up the bulk in staff terms of the PS. Their starting wage is €23k.


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    #56
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    imme wrote: »
    the Irish Indo article you reference says the average industrial wage is €42k. Whatever about using statistics to say whatever you want or to back up an argument, one seems to be able use the internet to prove anything. I found the €32k figure on a different site, not a government/official site.
    Anyway, 80% of PS staff do not earn the average industrial wage. Starting off grade in the PS is clerical officer, these people make up the bulk in staff terms of the PS. Their starting wage is €23k.

    how could clerical officers make up the bulk of public sector staff , perhaps you mean they make up the bulk of civil service staff

    the average public sector worker ( which includes the civil service ) earns over 49 k per year


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    #57
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    irish_bob wrote: »
    how could clerical officers make up the bulk of public sector staff , perhaps you mean they make up the bulk of civil service staff

    the average public sector worker ( which includes the civil service ) earns over 49 k per year
    yes true, sorry for confusion. where did you get the €49k figure?


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    #58
    population
    Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭population


    The_Thing wrote: »
    (A) - Pride:
    Men were too proud to be seen sweeping the streets, collecting other people's filthy bins, cleaning drains, picking up dead animals off the roads, etc, etc.

    Let me explain my answer, jimd2.

    I have been employed with a local authority for almost twenty years in their outdoor section and the very first task I was given when I started was sweeping the streets. Apart from the fact the streets needed cleaning this was also a test - a test to see if you really wanted the job and that you'd stick it out. You would be suprised the number of guys who would do a disappearing act as soon as they were told to go sweeping.

    On another occasion I was asked about a litter warden's job that had been adverised. When I mentioned the fact that it would involve picking up waste which had been illegaly dumped and examine it for evidence to prosecute those involved, the person asking was no longer interested in applying.

    If the above was happening in my local authority then I am fairly certain that it was happening all over the country too.

    Yup and there are absolutely zero private sector jobs with unsavoury work conditions:rolleyes:


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    #59
    glaston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 331 ✭✭glaston


    dresden8 wrote: »
    Sigh.

    The "pension levy" has nothing to do with pensions.

    It does not go into a pension pot.

    It confers no pension entitlements.

    It is levied against payments which are not pensionable.

    It is levied against employees who have no pension entitlements.


    You might find it frustrating that this payment isn’t really related to your pension. It’s equally frustrating for the rest of us that your eventual entitlement is equally unrelated to your contributions, investment performance, avc’s etc. So Joe public who pays into dc scheme with no guarantee will end up footing the bill to guarantee your pension.
    Sigh indeed.


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    #60
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    imme wrote: »
    yes true, sorry for confusion. where did you get the €49k figure?

    e.r.s.i


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    #61
    diverdriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    Look Dresden and others. Don't you understand? You can argue until the cliches and lies come home to roost. But the simply reality is this:

    There is no money to pay your salaries anymore. The government is borrowing €400 million a week to pay you.

    The people who used to pay all the taxes that kept the PS working are on the dole or gone home to Poland or wherever.

    It's pointless arguing that some private sector employees are getting pay rises. If they are, (with the exception of AIB, which is a disgrace), then it's because those companies are still making money. That isn't unfair, it's the way things are. My wife was promoted recently and got a payrise. She is also getting a nice bonus. Her first in five years, I might add. Is that unfair? No because her employer is still making profit. What's interesting is that the equivalent department to hers in the PS works shorter hours, has more people and is much less efficient. Oh and they are better paid overall.

    That's the problem in a nutshell. The PS must take pay cuts because there is no money to pay them. No amount of argument is going to change that.


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