Some Questions for The Public Sector Bashers

dodgyme

pmacdot wrote: »

Thank goodness some sanity at last! If I read one more article about how parasitic and evil the public sector are I think I will screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem!!!! it is a form of brainwashing which has taken hold of the minds of everybody including the public sector themselves, :

Where is the sanity in paying for what you cant afford. We cant afford to pay PS wages any longer

pmacdot wrote: »

is " the nasty evil lazy good -for-nothing public sector are to blame for this hideous economic mess, they must be spurned at the crossroads, at newspaper stands,on the television and radio and in all human discourse their appalling crime must be exposed. Cut, Cut, Cut!!!!!!!!!!!! :

My violin is playing for you with my thumb and index finger. When there is no job to get up for then you may complain.

pmacdot wrote: »

Maybe I will wake up and find it has all been a Halloween horror.:D:eek:(:pac::mad:

Maybe the only horror is cutting off your nose dispite your face. you troll!

diverdriver

It's breathtaking how people don't even understand the basics. Let's have some examples:

P Breathnach

If we introduced fees for all education, for all medical services, for water and for sewage disposal, for admission to libraries and museums, and many other things, then we could then have a situation where the public service was deemed to be productive. Because so much of what is provided by the public service is free at the point of consumption, some people regard it as non-productive.

That's taxation, fees paid to government entities are taxes! Nothing the PS provides is free. We already paid our taxes so these services are provided free. Put a fee on it and we're pay twice.

pmacdot

Thank goodness some sanity at last! If I read one more article about how parasitic and evil the public sector are I think I will screeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem!!!! it is a form of brainwashing which has taken hold of the minds of everybody including the public sector themselves,

I haven't read any articles about parasitic and evil the PS is. No one even thinks that. The PS sector wage bill must be cut because there is no money to pay it anymore. The failure of many PS workers to understand this basic truth is incredible. His 'sane' questions are mostly irrelevent and straw man in character.

I spoke to a PS employee yesterday, a college lecturer, in fact I know quite a few related by marriage as I am. Interestingly all my relations are private sector. I asked what she thought of the pay cuts. 'But I've already had a pay cut with the pension levy' she said. 'But to be fair, I can't complain as I'm off for a year's sabbatical with full pay'. Sums it up really. Try that in private job.

P. Breathnach

diverdriver wrote: »

It's breathtaking how people don't even understand the basics. ... fees paid to government entities are taxes!

My breath has been taken away.

drkpower

diverdriver wrote: »

It's breathtaking how people don't even understand the basics. Let's have some examples:

P BreathnachThat's taxation, fees paid to government entities are taxes! Nothing the PS provides is free. We already paid our taxes so these services are provided free. Put a fee on it and we're pay twice.

Fees paid to government entities are taxes?

Like an entrance fee to a museum.
Stamping fees to lodge a summons in the High Court.
A coffee and a danish in a hospital.
etc
etc

We really are a heavily taxed nation if they are considered to be taxes.

jimmmy

drkpower wrote: »

Fees paid to government entities are taxes?

Like an entrance fee to a museum.
Stamping fees to lodge a summons in the High Court.
A coffee and a danish in a hospital.
etc
etc

You are taking his / her quote out of context.
The point was, re "fees for all education, for all medical services, for water and for sewage disposal " etc, "That's taxation, fees paid to government entities are taxes! Nothing the PS provides is free. We already paid our taxes"

jimmmy

diverdriver wrote: »

It's breathtaking how people don't even understand the basics.

I think behind it all most do, but do not forget there are over 300,000 recepients of public service wages , and God knows how many people in receipt of a public service pension ( which is linked to current public sector wages ).

drkpower

jimmmy wrote: »

You are taking his / her quote out of context.
The point was, re "fees for all education, for all medical services, for water and for sewage disposal " etc, "That's taxation, fees paid to government entities are taxes! Nothing the PS provides is free. We already paid our taxes"

Please dont tell me my quote is out of context and then selectively quote the context! Its rude and unhelpful.

He was replying to the following which you partially and selectively quote above "fees for all education, for all medical services, for water and for sewage disposal, for admission to libraries and museums, and many other things".

So I was not taking him out of context at all.

jimmmy

And what has "A coffee and a danish in a hospital." got to do with it ?

drkpower

jimmmy wrote: »

And what has "A coffee and a danish in a hospital." got to do with it ?

I was asking him what he considered to be "taxes", hence my use of a "?" given his statement that "fees paid to government entities are taxes".

If a fee into a museum is a tax, so is the coffee that you pick up in the cafe afterwards.

Riskymove

diverdriver wrote: »

It's breathtaking how people don't even understand the basics.

lol, a lot of us would have suffocated long ago so

We already paid our taxes so these services are provided free. Put a fee on it and we're pay twice.

it depends on the set-up

if the idea is that the education fees is what goes to the college and no monies come from general expenditure then its not double taxation

however, if your position is that I pay PAYE and therefore that means i should get every public service free then fine, you can be of that opinion but our Tax rates would be woefully inadequate to meet that aspiration

I put forward that the State would have to borrow even more than it presently requires to meet that

'But to be fair, I can't complain as I'm off for a year's sabbatical with full pay'. Sums it up really. Try that in private job.

try that in most Public sector jobs

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

try that in most Public sector jobs

You can only get up to 36 grand now for up to 3 years unpaid leave, is that not correct ? My cousin is only of those going to take a holiday from work for 3 years and she is delighted she will be well paid for it, and have a job to go back to.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

You can only get up to 36 grand now for up to 3 years unpaid leave, is that not correct ? My cousin is only of those going to take a holiday from work for 3 years and she is delighted she will be well paid for it, and have a job to go back to.

Didn't you bring that unsourced unprovable little anecdote up a number of times before?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

You can only get up to 36 grand now for up to 3 years unpaid leave, is that not correct ?

in some sectors yes

but that is NOT "full pay" as put forward by diverdriver

if full pay sabbaticals were available across the public service i think it would be quite an issue dont you?

its further evidence of the main issues being in health and education where the vested interests have held sway for so long

Riskymove

Nodin wrote: »

Didn't you bring that unsourced unprovable little anecdote up a number of times before?

oh it exists alright in some sectors

its a spectacular mistake by the Government, but thankfully the take up was low so hopefully wont cost too much

the_syco

jimd2 wrote: »

Why did you not try and get a job in the Irish Public Sector during the boom and when they were recruiting quite a lot?

I did. Didn't get one though.

jimd2 wrote: »

Were you so happy with your private sector bonuses and rapid promotions that I know many people were getting?

Lucky bas*ards. Never got one of these phantom bonuses. Heard that everyone and their grandma got one, but never knew someone who actually got one.

jimd2 wrote: »

Did the Public Sector seem an area that was not exciting enough for your undoubted talents?

As said, I tried to get in. Not qualified enough, it would seem (niche area?).

jimd2 wrote: »

Were you objecting to the rapidly increasing house prices and the obvious effects this was having on mortgages and consequently wages in this economy?

Yes.

jimd2 wrote: »

Did you vent your feelings about Public Sector workers the last time you had an ineraction with a nurse, teacher, guard, dole office staff, social worker etc.?

None of them had any say on how much they earned.

jimd2 wrote: »

Are your opinions on the Public Sector workers influenced by the slow drip feed of negatives being conveniently and continuously being released to the media in recent times?

No. It's based on how the unions that are meant ro represent the Public Sector act.

jimd2 wrote: »

What are your thoughts regarding those uindividuals that have avoided paying their taxes for many years in this country in spite of earning many multiples of Public Sector wages.

Such as most of the builders? The ones out of a job now? I wonder how many didn't save, and instead spent their cash on fast cars, and flash sh|t?

jimd2 wrote: »

What are your thoughts about workers in banks whose effects on tis economy is much more stark but are now getting pay rises?

The people at the bottom are getting par rises, as per some agreement that also got the public sector workers an incrase.

Nodin

Riskymove wrote: »

oh it exists alright in some sectors

its a spectacular mistake by the Government, but thankfully the take up was low so hopefully wont cost too much

I'm sure it does. The problem is that rather than the actual policy, we're given the usual vague 'Someone I know' crap, which says nothing about who is applicable, terms, conditions or anything else.

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

I'm sure it does. The problem is that rather than the actual policy, we're given the usual vague 'Someone I know' crap, which says nothing about who is applicable, terms, conditions or anything else.

I am sure if you root around you will find out about it / see the actual policy. I agree its a bit vague. The public service does not like to talk about it too much, even though it does exist : a bit like the paid half hour some public servants get to cash their pay cheque ( even though they are now paid by direct debit ), the paid shopping day at Xmas etc.

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

I am sure if you root around you will find out about it / see the actual policy. I agree its a bit vague. The public service does not like to talk about it too much, even though it does exist : a bit like the paid half hour some public servants get to cash their pay cheque ( even though they are now paid by direct debit ), the paid shopping day at Xmas etc.

More vague crap - not a link, not even a newspaper article. Along with crap thats been dealt with in detail before.

Have you ever backed up one of your assertions?

Over paid public servants - you know them. Lazy public servants - you know them. Public servants that take 'career breaks' - you know them. Countries that have "better" public servants than here - you know them. Public servants off to Australia - you know them.

In any given thread, its almost guaranteed that you'll trot out an anecdote that is supposedly proof positive of your on-going grudge against public servants in general.

ardmacha

Paid career breaks, I wish I had one like these people
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1111/1226356725648.html

jimmmy

Nodin wrote: »

More vague crap .

I was merely confirming that while public knowledge about them may be vague, and many people unaware they exist at all, paid career breaks - at up to 36 grand - do exist in the public service. Its not just me who thinks so ; Riskymove wrote " it exists alright in some sectors ".
I do not always ( or perhaps often ) agree with Riskymove but I take on board his / her comments and respect their statements.

ardmacha

Let me just clarify the purpose of my previous post. I was merely confirming that while public knowledge about them may be vague, and many people unaware they exist at all, paid career breaks - at up to 35 grand - do exist in the private sector.

dresden8

Riskymove wrote: »

oh it exists alright in some sectors

its a spectacular mistake by the Government, but thankfully the take up was low so hopefully wont cost too much

You've got entirely the wrong end of the stick.

That's 12,000 grand a year each for people who will not be replaced.

The unemployment benefit rate is 204.30 per week or 10,623.60 per annum.

Those people who take the career break are giving up 36k on average per year for a bonus of €26.47 above the unemployment rate per week.

That's a saving of 36k per year per employee, at no great cost to the exchequer above the unemployment rate.

And as is pointed out, these also exist in the private sector.

diverdriver

More vague crap .

Let's clear it up once and for all, she is on full pay for the year on sabbatical. Short of asking her to send one of you details of it I can't do anymore than state what she told me. I'll ask again to confirm it in my mind but that's what she told me. You can call it anecdotal crap as much as you like but there you are. She is using it to improve her experience and knowledge so it isn't going to be a long holiday for her just a series of short holidays:rolleyes: Such is the life in academia. I should also add that she is a credit to the PS and does earn her money like so many others. So in the long run it will be better for her students. I'm sorry it's an unverified comment on the internet by a unknown person of unknown integrity. But you can judge by previous posts of mine whether or not I'm a bit of liar.

On the point of taxes my other comments seems to have confused or even taken the breath away of several of you. Let me reiterate it. Any money paid to a PS entity is a tax. I really don't know where a coffee and a Danish comes into it, other than to say it's probably a franchise which pays the hospital a fee for it's position in the hospital. But it does as someone said 'depend' on how it's structured.

The IAA for example, that's the Irish Aviation Authority was part of the Department of Transport once but was spun off and told to make it's own living. Which it now does with fees. It's arguable whether or not it's tax but indeed it's model of what could be done. The first thing that happened was the fees shot up which meant they were not recovering the full cost before that. I was caught by that and went in to complain to, as it happens a friend of mine who worked there. I got the full breakdown and left much the wiser.

The point being that that taxes are there to pay for services and facilities that in general are not provided by the private sector. If something is run by government employees it's irrelevant whether or not you pay up front or in your pay packet. It's all tax. So when you pay your tolls at the M50 remember you are paying twice.

NewDubliner

diverdriver wrote: »

The IAA for example, that's the Irish Aviation Authority was part of the Department of Transport once but was spun off and told to make it's own living. Which it now does with fees.

We could privitise Social Welfare, make some money selling the personal details to credit-rating agencies, debt-repair companies and recruitment firms.

Then, take a tip from RyanAir and allow queue-jumping in return for a small cut out of the person's dole payment. Also, make it really inconvenient to claim or to make a complaint by charging handling fees and forcing people to sign miles from where they live. Finally,we could pay out in food tokens, only redeemable at stores run by carefully chosen affiliates. :P

How can we privitise the Department of Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs?

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

How can we privitise the Department of Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs?

We could sell it to the Chinese who would make Mandarin names compulsory for all Irish towns and all official documents must be translated into Cantonese.

pmacdot

ardmacha wrote: »

Paid career breaks, I wish I had one like these people
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1111/1226356725648.html

Never ever heard of such a thing. It was a college lecturer, I think, was mentioned and it may have something to do with taking a year out to do research in a particular field. I know that any public servants I know in government departments do not get paid sabbaticals. It is really a terrible that the government have managed yet again to split workers and that causes resentment which is not helping the economy at all.

pmacdot

realcam wrote: »

Hardly. What I'm saying is that if you create a public body to provide a service by its very nature such a public body will attempt to expand and grow and become less productive and create overheads. It's in the nature of such an institution. She's like your fat, cake-eating auntie. She'd eat cake all day long if you don't watch her.

Our governments job is to control and steer and streamline these bodies. But instead they meddle with them for various other reasons or are simply incompetent and fvck it all up even more.
Quote you are so right, I think there was over appointment of "friends tp quangos etc and these people are usually paid more than the average ps and come in at higher rank bypassing the the procedures and actually blocking the more long term civil servant from advancement. The pay bill then apppears too high. Get rid of most quangos and deal with the serious slackers and it might be a surprise to find that ps work hard and are not overpaid.

What I'm saying is - the public service is not at fault. The government is.
Which is not the same as saying the public service doesn't need a bit of a trim.

I totally agree that the government is at fault for not planning and preparing for the day when the property revenue would inevitably ease off. Ordinary ps workers should not be targeted.

NewDubliner

dresden8 wrote: »

We could sell it to the Chinese who would make Mandarin names compulsory for all Irish towns and all official documents must be translated into Cantonese.

That might work: Chinese is more widely spoken here than Irish and most Irish-themed souvenirs are made in China.

Pollythene Pam

ei.sdraob wrote: »

100% of the population cant work on the public sector

thats called communism

and we know how that ends up



Not a bad Idea at this stage.
At this rate they might be trying to get Lennin out of his tomb.:)

me_right_one

There should have been a poll with this thread - "Do you think the PS are sh1te?" I'd say it'd have the most yes's of any Boards poll ever. And rightly so