Charge extra for ice-cream in restaurants?

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

All im asking is how much you would like to pay for it?
Butlers isnt the top of the range by the way.

You are being disingenuous again!:eek: You asked how much I would pay working on the basis of a €20 tart, service, VAT etc....

But to answer your Q.:
Regular run of the mill restaurant: €5-6 max per desert
Top range/Michelan: €9-11max

Surely you dont buy your deserts from outside anyway?

Mr.Boots

No i didnt expect you to know the cost price, i just wanted to know what you as a customer would be willing to pay (sorry if you didnt understand what i meant)
Its hard in this business because alot of people think they know all about it because they cook at home or watch chefs on tv, and thats why so many of them open restaurants and fail.
Yes there is profit in desserts and they are certinly not top heavy with profit. they are labour intencive.
there is more profit in wine (but thats another arguemnet)
Most people will be willing to pay for quality.
Alot of places dont make their own because of the labour and space involved.
and yes i do make my own

the beer revolu

Mr Boots, we could argue all week here about, profit margins, the moral right to charge extra for ice cream, the difficulty in making money out of a restaurant (I am well acquainted with the industry) and how stupid people think it's a licence to print money but you'd be missing the point entirely.
The point is that it is clearly a practice that pis*es customers off. As said before, estimate the cost and factor it in to the price of the dessert, bearing in mind that relatively few people will request this. If you absolutely insist in charging for it, then print it clearly on your menu - that way people can make an informed choice.

Let me tell you a story;
Some years ago I used to regularly frequent a cafe and have a steak bap and a glass of water at lunchtime (usually off-peak lunchtime). Ok I didn't spend a fortune but I was regular, ordered their most expensive sandwich and was usually out of there very quickly. I also occasionally brought friends there.
One day I was told that they no longer served tap water. I paid for my sandwich, did not buy a drink and never darkened their door again (and told lots of people). To be honest, if that happened now, I wouldn't even have the sandwich!
I'm not saying it's the same situation but I am saying that it's very easy for a customer to feel somehow 'done' and walk out of your premises for ever.

Mr. Presentable

The only thing wrong in the OP is the poster was not advised of an additional charge so as to make an informed decision. I am not a caterer, but I imagine costs are not just the raw materials of a pie/tart. There's time in preparation (should the cook not get paid to make and bake?), server costs, storage, and I doubt the whole pie gets sold every time.

Why do people think it's wrong to make a profit? How much is public liability insurance in the OP's example restaurant? That has to be factored in once the customer is on the premises - before he has bought anything. Also heat, light, furniture, cleaning etc. It's not just about the cost of a pie.

Mr.Boots

Yep the OP should have been advised of the aditional charge .

However as i said in my original post...they charge extra because it costs them extra....simple economics.
Please dont compare it to glasses of water or stale bread...it is what it is.....extra.
You cant factor it into the cost of the dessert because then we would be argueing about why the person not having icecream having to pay for it.
Unfortunetly Alot of Irish people are unwilling to pay that bit extra for quality food, mainly because they dont reconise quality and we have a situation where restaurants menus are price driven and not quality driven, America is a case in point....people expect large portions and extras and refills included.....they can do this because the quality is rubish.
All i can speak about is what i know....Quality costs me money to produce so it cost the customer a little bit more....it dosnt appeal to everyone but for those there are alternetive options out there.
Unfortunetly we live in a contry where 13.5% of you food bill goes to the revenue, 21.5% of your drink bill goes to the revenue and to employ someone to do a menial task of washing dishes it will cost 380 euro a week so imagine what chefs cost.
So to ask for a small sum (as i sugested) of 50c 1 euro isnt alot to ask on a desert costing 5 or 6 euro for a scoop of Murphys ice cream.
Good food is there to be enjoyed, its one of lifes great plesures(if you can realy enjoy it)
And Realy if you cant accept this then maybe get a choc ice on the way home.
End of rant

xxdilemmaxx

Mr.Boots wrote: »

And Realy if you cant accept this then maybe get a choc ice on the way home.
End of rant

Mr. Boots, in the current economic climate I find your attitude astounding. If I paid €6 for a dessert I would expect to have a scoop of ice cream on the side rather than cream if I wanted to. And if I didn't get that I would choose a more accomodating restuarant for my next meal out.
It's a buyers market these days and tbh I'm not sure how any restuarant owner with your attitude is still in business. Most resturants are giving great deals at the moment, free dessert if u buy a main, buy one get one free etc (you only have to look at menupages to see this).
People are choosing value for their buck now along with good customer service, I think this is something you should consider. Judging by the other posts to this thread I think everyone else is in agreement....

Mr.Boots

xxdilemmaxx wrote: »

Mr. Boots, in the current economic climate I find your attitude astounding. If I paid €6 for a dessert I would expect to have a scoop of ice cream on the side rather than cream if I wanted to. And if I didn't get that I would choose a more accomodating restuarant for my next meal out.
It's a buyers market these days and tbh I'm not sure how any restuarant owner with your attitude is still in business. Most resturants are giving great deals at the moment, free dessert if u buy a main, buy one get one free etc (you only have to look at menupages to see this).
People are choosing value for their buck now along with good customer service, I think this is something you should consider. Judging by the other posts to this thread I think everyone else is in agreement....

The OP was never about offering deals or anything like that.
All i did was answer a question as to why they charge more for icecream...i answered that and gave in depth reason for it.
I dont think you can ask for more than that....a genuine answer from someone who works in the trade.
I supose you can listen to my reasons and learn or keep argueing about something you dont realy understand.
I dont think i can say anything else on the topic at this stage.

the beer revolu

Mr Boots, nipplenuts,

No one thinks there is anything wrong with making a profit.

Most people understand that it's not easy for most restaurants to make money and that there are a lot of overheads.

We all, now, understand that ice cream costs more than cream.

Unless your restaurant is doing perfectly fine you really should understand that it's not a case that you can't afford to give away , in this example, a small scoop of ice cream but, rather, that you can't afford not to give it away.

You talk of people not understanding the relationship between quality and price. Personally, I'd rather to eat out only a few times a year and to it well. That's not going to help too many restaurants.

It's a difficult chicken/egg sort of situation. If lots more people ate out regularly, then restaurants could offer better value. We need a cultural shift in dining. But where is it to start?
What we need are lots of smaller restaurants providing good value rather than 100+ seater restaurants providing cheap rubbish.

I'm sorry, but it is up to people in the trade to educate the public that there is quality and value and service to be had out there and that's not going to be done by calling the public ignorant and insisting that every extra must be charged for.

I really do know how difficult it is and how overdrafts are a thing of the past and how close to the edge many restaurants are but if this cultural shift doesn't come from the trade, all those restaurants on the edge will go under.
It's your move.

drkpower

So many people (including the restauranteur) are missing the point here!! Its not really about what profit a restaurant makes out of their deserts.

The issue is that you should never ever cause the perception that you are ripping off/pulling a fast one on the customer. So even if you charge slightly too much for the desert (to allow for 10% of people who ask for icecream), people who get cream wont really care. But, if you add on the extra charge after the fact, they will believe thay have been ripped off and will act accordingly.

So to avoid that, as the beer revolu states above, you factor in a few extra cents on the cost of the desert and charge that, or failing that, print clearly on the menu that icecream will cost X more. That way noone feels cheated. What you dont do is give them the icecream and then surprise them with a charge on the menu. It really is simple good business, and to do as the OP's restaurant does, is self-defeating.

Technically/legally, the customer could tell you to sod off anyway, as they hadnt agreed to the charge prior to it was provided - but thats a whole other thread!:eek:

Mr.Boots

drkpower wrote: »

So many people (including the restauranteur) are missing the point here!! Its not really about what profit a restaurant makes out of their deserts.

The issue is that you should never ever cause the perception that you are ripping off/pulling a fast one on the customer. So even if you charge slightly too much for the desert (to allow for 10% of people who ask for icecream), people who get cream wont really care. But, if you add on the extra charge after the fact, they will believe thay have been ripped off and will act accordingly.

So to avoid that, as the beer revolu states above, you factor in a few extra cents on the cost of the desert and charge that, or failing that, print clearly on the menu that icecream will cost X more. That way noone feels cheated. What you dont do is give them the icecream and then surprise them with a charge on the menu. It really is simple good business, and to do as the OP's restaurant does, is self-defeating.

Technically/legally, the customer could tell you to sod off anyway, as they hadnt agreed to the charge prior to it was provided - but thats a whole other thread!:eek:

I think you would argue with your feet.

Anyway you arguement wasnt about disclosing a price on a menu, it was that you personnaly dont want to pay the extra for icecream....because you feel you shouldnt have to.
Read over the thread again...i think you loosing the run of yourself.

AARRRGH

I eat out a lot - it used to be two or three times a day, but is now only two or three times a week.

If I was a regular customer in a restaurant and they charged me €2 for a scoop of ice cream, I would be offended and would never eat there again. If I wasn't a regular customer, I would think they are scabs and would also never eat there again.

I completely understand there is a cost difference - I am a business owner myself. However, it would be easy for a restaurant to keep a block of low cost ice cream (e.g. HB honeycomb ice cream) for moments like this.

So even though the customer may be unreasonable in expecting something for nothing, the only solution where both parties win is cheap ice cream. The reason I suggested the HB honeycomb ice cream is because it is tasty and I am always happy to see it on my plate!

Mr.Boots

the beer revolu wrote: »

Mr Boots, nipplenuts,

No one thinks there is anything wrong with making a profit.

Most people understand that it's not easy for most restaurants to make money and that there are a lot of overheads.

We all, now, understand that ice cream costs more than cream.

Unless your restaurant is doing perfectly fine you really should understand that it's not a case that you can't afford to give away , in this example, a small scoop of ice cream but, rather, that you can't afford not to give it away.

You talk of people not understanding the relationship between quality and price. Personally, I'd rather to eat out only a few times a year and to it well. That's not going to help too many restaurants.

It's a difficult chicken/egg sort of situation. If lots more people ate out regularly, then restaurants could offer better value. We need a cultural shift in dining. But where is it to start?
What we need are lots of smaller restaurants providing good value rather than 100+ seater restaurants providing cheap rubbish.

I'm sorry, but it is up to people in the trade to educate the public that there is quality and value and service to be had out there and that's not going to be done by calling the public ignorant and insisting that every extra must be charged for.

I really do know how difficult it is and how overdrafts are a thing of the past and how close to the edge many restaurants are but if this cultural shift doesn't come from the trade, all those restaurants on the edge will go under.
It's your move.

I do everything i can to educate the Iirsh public about the food im passionate about, but in my varied experience only a small percentage are interested.
However if you go abroad you will find a completly different attitude towords food and it shows in the restaurants.....dont think i ever saw a carvery in france;)
As for calling people ignorant...yea some are...you put up with them...if they get more ignorant about spending 1 euro extra for icecream when its clearly displayed on a menu card, then it will be explained to them, and if they still arnt happy it will be taken from their bill, no question, But Who wins? hes gone off feeling smug, and i feel hes a d$*k.
There is an underlying feeling in this thread that restaurants are out to rip you off, some do but like i said i cant speak for them, i can only go on my experience and how i run my business, every price is clear and displayed, there are no hidden costs, no service charge, no credit card charge, no charge for calling taxis, dropping customers home...the list gose on...
we only charge for what you have comsumed....extra scoop and all;)

Mr.Boots

AARRRGH wrote: »

I eat out a lot - it used to be two or three times a day, but is now only two or three times a week.

If I was a regular customer in a restaurant and they charged me €2 for a scoop of ice cream, I would be offended and would never eat there again. If I wasn't a regular customer, I would think they are scabs and would also never eat there again.

I completely understand there is a cost difference - I am a business owner myself. However, it would be easy for a restaurant to keep a block of low cost ice cream (e.g. HB honeycomb ice cream) for moments like this.

So even though the customer may be unreasonable in expecting something for nothing, the only solution where both parties win is cheap ice cream. The reason I suggested the HB honeycomb ice cream is because it is tasty and I am always happy to see it on my plate!

No ofence but if HB ever graced my freezer i might as well close because i will no longer be doing my best to give the customer something special.
some understad this...some dont.....

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I think you would argue with your feet..

I do; and by telling others of restaurants which provide poor service.

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Anyway you arguement wasnt about disclosing a price on a menu, it was that you personnaly dont want to pay the extra for icecream....because you feel you shouldnt have to.
Read over the thread again...i think you loosing the run of yourself.

You are being disingenuous again. Im beginning to see your difficulty. You dont listen - a very dangerous thing in your business.

I made a number of different points through this discussion. I never said "I shouldnt have to" pay for the icecream because "I personally dont want to". What I repeatedly said was that it was bad business to do so. And I did suggest changing the menu if people keep asking for icecream. I've called you on your dishonesty before. Stop being so dishonest. Its pathetic.

drkpower wrote:

Aside from any moral argument, its simply bad business to do so.

They don't, that is the point; it is an occasional customer who will make this request so it has little effect on ultimate margins. But bad word of mouth from a handful of punters can have a big effect. Its simply bad business to charge these minor amounts.

And if 50-6-70& of people start asking specifically for icecream, you might want to think of changing your menu - and then, if someone asks for cream instead, you are saving money and keeping the customers happy. Win win.

It is also true that something like 4 in 10 customers will tell a friend/colleague of a good customer service outcome while 7-8/10 will tell them of a negative outcome. So, that extra scoop of icecream must be costing you big money if you are willing to risk a few customers being pissed off over.

And if it is a common phenomenon, factor it into your pricing structure. But dont annoy a customer because your pricing structire is inflexible.

AARRRGH

Mr.Boots wrote: »

No ofence but if HB ever graced my freezer i might as well close because i will no longer be doing my best to give the customer something special.
some understad this...some dont.....

But it would allow you to give the customer what she wants - ice cream instead of cream at no extra charge - and it wouldn't cost you anything.

It seems like a reasonable compromise.

Mr.Boots

AARRRGH wrote: »

But it would allow you to give the customer what she wants - ice cream instead of cream at no extra charge - and it wouldn't cost you anything.

It seems like a reasonable compromise.

Compromise is something i dont do when it comes to produce.

Mr.Boots

drkpower wrote: »

I do; and by telling others of restaurants which provide poor service.



You are being disingenuous again. Im beginning to see your difficulty. You dont listen - a very dangerous thing in your business.

I made a number of different points through this discussion. I never said "I shouldnt have to" pay for the icecream because "I personally dont want to". What I repeatedly said was that it was bad business to do so. And I did suggest changing the menu if people keep asking for icecream. I've called you on your dishonesty before. Stop being so dishonest. Its pathetic.

One thing i am not is dishonest and i do listen but you arguement is all over the place, read back over it.

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

One thing i am not is dishonest and i do listen but you arguement is all over the place, read back over it.

Whats most disappointing is that you cant take the criticism or point out where I am "all over the place". I have made a number of points in this thread; you have accepted some of them. You have accused me of saying something that I did not. I quoted directly what I did say. And all you can come back with is "read the thread".

Grow up; if you want to engage in discussion, do so honestly; if not, go away.

If this is how you converse with cusstomers, no wonder you feel that your customers who complain are "d%£ks"; you are not listening to them.

AARRRGH

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Compromise is something i dont do when it comes to produce.

Being stubborn isn't good for business.

I would imagine most customers would rather you compromised instead of charging them an extra €2.

Mr.Boots

drkpower wrote: »

Whats most disappointing is that you cant take the criticism or point out where I am "all over the place". I have made a number of points in this thread; you have accepted some of them. You have accused me of saying something that I did not. I quoted directly what I did say. And all you can come back with is "read the thread".

Grow up; if you want to engage in discussion, do so honestly; if not, go away.

If this is how you converse with cusstomers, no wonder you feel that your customers who complain are "d%£ks"; you are not listening to them.

Appoligies if i ofended, but i just felt you entire arguemnet apart from a few points was based on you not wanting to pay a little extra.
I gave genuine reasons and facts.
Please dont insult me by saying i need to grow up and be honest, you dont know me and i take that seriously.
Offer me the respect i have offered you.

Mr.Boots

AARRRGH wrote: »

Being stubborn isn't good for business.

I would imagine most customers would rather you compromised instead of charging them an extra €2.

Im not stubborn..im passionate
Like i said it works for some, not all.
This is a food forum....i guessed for people who love good food, but its begining to dawn on me as i look through threads that all is not well.

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Appoligies if i ofended, but i just felt you entire arguemnet apart from a few points was based on you not wanting to pay a little extra.
I gave genuine reasons and facts.
Please dont insult me by saying i need to grow up and be honest, you dont know me and i take that seriously.
Offer me the respect i have offered you.

Im afraid you have not offered me any respect; you have incorrectly represented my argument on a number of occasions now even though 'i have gone to the trouble of posting my historical quotes to show you the various arguments I have been making.

You dont get respect if you are disingenuous and dishonest; and that applies to resteraunteurs who impose a hidden charge wothout advance notice.

AARRRGH

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Im not stubborn..im passionate
Like i said it works for some, not all.
This is a food forum....i guessed for people who love good food, but its begining to dawn on me as i look through threads that all is not well.

I love good food, but a restaurant is a business, and pissing off customers is really bad business.

Being unwilling to compromise is not a strength, and being unable to see things from the customers perspective is definitely not a strength!

I don't want to argue though, and I wish your restaurant well.

Mr.Boots

drkpower wrote: »

Im afraid you have not offered me any respect; you have incorrectly represented my argument on a number of occasions now even though 'i have gone to the trouble of posting my historical quotes to show you the various arguments I have been making.

You dont respect if you are disingenuous and dishonest; and that applies to resteraunteurs who impose a hidden charge wothout advance notice.

T-Square

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Just to put a figure on it for you,
4 litres of cream cost about 12 euro
4 litres of good icecream costs 60 euro

Gimme a break, while your facts are true,
when was the last time you actually got the highest quality icecream from a Dublin restaurant?
Dublin eateries server the cheapest icecream they can find, so there is no need to charge a "premium" for a "premium" :rolleyes: product.

NEVER

Mr.Boots

AARRRGH wrote: »

I love good food, but a restaurant is a business, and pissing off customers is really bad business.

Being unwilling to compromise is not a strength, and being unable to see things from the customers perspective is definitely not a strength!

I don't want to argue though, and I wish your restaurant well.

Ok, that works for some restaurants, but not mine.
Ill use a well known restaurant as an example.....Chapter one known for its quality ....i dare you to go and ask if they have HB honeycomb
They dont compromise...they champoion local produce, home made produce, quality.
They certinly would not let some nasty cheap icecream taint thier model...why should they.
Would you not go there because no HB?
Or would you prefer to be educated in some Homemade or artisan produced icecream in unusual flavours where you can taste and see the vanilla for example.

Mr.Boots

T-Square wrote: »

Gimme a break, while your facts are true,
when was the last time you actually got the highest quality icecream from a Dublin restaurant?

NEVER

Like ive said before i cant speak for other restaurants.....only what i know...and yes i use the best i can find and always buy irish where possible.

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Ill use a well known restaurant as an example.....Chapter one known for its quality ....i dare you to go and ask if they have HB honeycomb

And do you think Chapter One would charge extra if you asked for a scoop of icecream? Of course they bloody wouldnt, they're not stupid.

Mr.Boots

drkpower wrote: »

And do you think Chapter One would charge extra if you asked for a scoop of icecream? Of course they bloody wouldnt, they're not stupid.

it was used as an example for the use of quality produce

drkpower

Mr.Boots wrote: »

it was used as an example for the use of quality produce

and I used it as an example of their quality service; if you operate at the premium end produce wise (where you pay €40 for 4 litres of icecream wholesale), you have to be at the premium end service wise. Otherwise you will be out of business.