Privatising the public sector

#15

In light of the need to cut govt expenditure, how realistic would it be to privatise most areas of the public sector?
And to do so in such a way that it benefits both the public and the private companies who would run the new businesses?

Health and education could be privatised if they were independently regulated.

An Garda Síochána obviously would not be privatised...

What would happen with Welfare?

I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on this. I don't know enough about the topic to have a definite opinion, but it would be good to have a discussion on it.


p.s. Please keep public sector vs private sector rants out of this topic.

Count Dooku

#15 wrote: »

What would happen with Welfare?

Taxpayers will bailout banks through NAMA, function of Welfare offices can be easily passed to banks,

NFD100

Well, it works perfectly well in New Zealand. They had a serious economic crash in the 80s. Rogernomics (named after their Finance minister of the time) was their answer, it meant that practically all the functions of the state were transferred to the private sector. Ambulances, hospitals, roads etc.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogernomics

For a country the size of Ireland - it is an ideal role model.

uncle_sam_ie

The US model is probably were we are headed. It's a great system if you can afford it. My sister pays out 600 dollars a month to a health insurance company for this wonderful privilege.

irish_bob

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

The US model is probably were we are headed. It's a great system if you can afford it. My sister pays out 600 dollars a month to a health insurance company for this wonderful privilege.

most americans pay a thousand dollars a month for health insurance , the problem in america is the insurance companies engage in gouging , up to now this gouging has been tollerated by both main political parties

that said , i believe thier is a third way between the american system and the union dominated fiasco which is the HSE , we need to dump the HSE which primarily exists to serve those who work within it , allow the goverments only role to be that of preventing insurance companies from engaging in gouging , let everyone buy health insurance and i include the unemployed , presently i am single and i pay 700 euro per year with quinn health , for a couple with four kids , the cost would be around 2500 per year , that is 14 euro per week for a single person and 50 quid per week for a family , such is our genrous level of wellfare in this country , even those on the dole should have no problem putting aside this kind of money so as to ensure they are covered should they fall victim to bad health , many on the dole spend 50 quid a week on alcohol , ciggarettes or a trip to the bookies or chip shop , if the same person believe theese are more important prioritys than taking responsibilitys for ones health , i for one dont believe the tax payer should bail them out

privatising our health service would remove all the politics that presently engulfs the HSE , where surplus to requirement adminstrators are not let go for the simple reason that the local TD would loose a housefull of votes , it would also remove the iron grip unions presently have , baschically the customer could expect value for their money

uncle_sam_ie

irish_bob wrote: »

most americans pay a thousand dollars a month for health insurance , the problem in america is the insurance companies engage in gouging , up to now this gouging has been tollerated by both main political parties

that said , i believe thier is a third way between the american system and the union dominated fiasco which is the HSE , we need to dump the HSE which primarily exists to serve those who work within it , allow the goverments only role to be that of preventing insurance companies from engaging in gouging , let everyone buy health insurance and i include the unemployed , presently i am single and i pay 700 euro per year with quinn health , for a couple with four kids , the cost would be around 2500 per year , that is 14 euro per week for a single person and 50 quid per week for a family , such is our genrous level of wellfare in this country , even those on the dole should have no problem putting aside this kind of money so as to ensure they are covered should they fall victim to bad health , many on the dole spend 50 quid a week on alcohol , ciggarettes or a trip to the bookies or chip shop , if the same person believe theese are more important prioritys than taking responsibilitys for ones health , i for one dont believe the tax payer should bail them out

privatising our health service would remove all the politics that presently engulfs the HSE , where surplus to requirement adminstrators are not let go for the simple reason that the local TD would loose a housefull of votes , it would also remove the iron grip unions presently have , baschically the customer could expect value for their money

First off,that's a sick generalization of people on the dole. Second, once the private sector has to shoulder the cost of health care in this country the 700 euro a year will go out the window and the cost will rise. And third, I don't trust this government or any other to regulate in the publics favor.

leninbenjamin

tbh, the two main f*ckups in the public sector are health and welfare. Welfare can't be privatised. Health can quite easily be privatised, but introduces sh*tloads of conflicts of interest, inequalities and needs to be very highly regulated.

#15

irish_bob wrote: »

most americans pay a thousand dollars a month for health insurance , the problem in america is the insurance companies engage in gouging , up to now this gouging has been tollerated by both main political parties

that said , i believe thier is a third way between the american system and the union dominated fiasco which is the HSE , we need to dump the HSE which primarily exists to serve those who work within it , allow the goverments only role to be that of preventing insurance companies from engaging in gouging , let everyone buy health insurance and i include the unemployed , presently i am single and i pay 700 euro per year with quinn health , for a couple with four kids , the cost would be around 2500 per year , that is 14 euro per week for a single person and 50 quid per week for a family , such is our genrous level of wellfare in this country , even those on the dole should have no problem putting aside this kind of money so as to ensure they are covered should they fall victim to bad health , many on the dole spend 50 quid a week on alcohol , ciggarettes or a trip to the bookies or chip shop , if the same person believe theese are more important prioritys than taking responsibilitys for ones health , i for one dont believe the tax payer should bail them out

privatising our health service would remove all the politics that presently engulfs the HSE , where surplus to requirement adminstrators are not let go for the simple reason that the local TD would loose a housefull of votes , it would also remove the iron grip unions presently have , baschically the customer could expect value for their money

Please, can we keep HSE bashing out of this? I am primarily interested in how people would see a privatised system work.

Thinking out loud here, how about schools were formed according to different educational philosophies, e.g. Frobelian, Dewey, etc.? Parents would haved the freedom to choose the system that they want for their children.
Now, admittedly, I haven't thought this through fully, but I'm just putting it out there.

What areas could be privatised?

uncle_sam_ie

#15 wrote: »

Please, can we keep HSE bashing out of this? I am primarily interested in how people would see a privatised system work.

Thinking out loud here, how about schools were formed according to different educational philosophies, e.g. Frobelian, Dewey, etc.? Parents would haved the freedom to choose the system that they want for their children.
Now, admittedly, I haven't thought this through fully, but I'm just putting it out there.

What areas could be privatised?

Health care and schools should not be privatized. It would put profit before edition and care needs and would discriminate. RTE on the other should be privatized. We can do without an entertainment network and the 160 euro a year tax.

Permabear

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#15

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

Health care and schools should not be privatized. It would put profit before edition and care needs and would discriminate. RTE on the other should be privatized. We can do without an entertainment network and the 160 euro a year tax.

I'm not saying it should. But I think there is no harm in a discussion.

Profit before education? Is it possible to do both at the same time? Lets say a group of teachers set up a primary school, based on a certain educational philosophy. All the teachers commit to teaching in a certain way, based on that philosophy. Parents can be sure about the teaching methods, and the educational outcomes. The teachers share in the profits of the school.

Could it work? Maybe. Is it a good idea??

Does it matter if the teachers profit if the children leave school with a great education?

uncle_sam_ie

donegalfella wrote: »

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Tell that to sammy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/jeremy_clarkson/article684953.ece

"Not everyone in America is deranged, of course. Sammy certainly isn’t. Sammy was helping us out washing cars, and one night, over dinner, he explained how he’d become so badly burnt. And why, as a result, the best he could hope for out of life was washing cars for cash. 

His car had exploded after it was rammed from behind by an off-duty cop. He was taken to a hospital that had no air-conditioning, in California, in the summer. Not nice when you have third-degree burns to half your body. 

And to make matters worse, there was nobody to help him go to the loo, so he either did his business where he lay — or went through untold agony by rolling over to pee on the floor. 

The bill for his botched plastic surgery was half a million dollars, $15,000 of which came from the cop’s insurance. This means Sammy can never get a proper job, or buy a house or find credit. 

The government, he says, is waiting for him to pop up on the radar and then they’ll come round to get their greenbacks back."

#15

donegalfella wrote: »

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What is your own position on policing? Could it work? How would it work?

leninbenjamin

tbh, considering how much parents fork out in grinds to make up for the failings of the education system privatisation might not be too bad. But there have to be provisions in place to ensure it doesn't all children have equal opportunities, and that's where it can get messy.

Permabear

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Permabear

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BroomBurner

Hmm, this is going to be an unfortunately negative comment, but my thoughts on what will go wrong with privatisation of certain parts of the PS:

RTE - at first, I agreed with uncle sam, but then I started thinking about the BBC and the different channels in America. If RTE were bought out by a private company, that private company would then control what we were watching (please see Fox in the US for how this would be detrimental).

HSE - the US system is madness. If you're poor, you're screwed. At least with a public system, everyone is looked after (to a certian degree). I think the HSE needs to be rehashed altogether and would love it to reflect the French health system of controls and availability.

Education - We all saw what happened with the education system left in the hands of the church, it is impossible to say if that would not happen again. Also, if we privatise schools, the companies that run them can teach whatever they want.

Welfare - How would this be managed if privatised, considering it is tax intake that pays it. I think it would too unweildy to even try to privatise this. A waste of time and effort that would eventually come back in to the public hold.

The main thing to try to remember when thinking about privatisation is that private companies have their own agendas and/or could be bought to push another's agenda. There is no accountability with them, while public ownerships leaves us with something.

uncle_sam_ie

donegalfella wrote: »

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Gosh no, I cant find any other disaster story like Sammy's. He must be the only one. It seems the US has the best healthcare system on the planet and there is no desire from Obama to change it.

dresden8

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, Robocop was quite good.

Permabear

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uncle_sam_ie

BroomBurner wrote: »

H

RTE - at first, I agreed with uncle sam, but then I started thinking about the BBC and the different channels in America. If RTE were bought out by a private company, that private company would then control what we were watching (please see Fox in the US for how this would be detrimental).

I would have no problem keeping TG4 with Irish only programing . But, RTE is a waste. We forked out over a million euro to pay Pat Kenny and Gerry Ryan. We don't need it. 30 years ago when that was the only choice maybe, but not in 2009.

irish_bob

dresden8 wrote: »

Yes, Robocop was quite good.

not saying i agree with you dresden but i congratulate you on your quick wit

robocop was an anti priavate sector movie in general , still a classic though

id buy that for a dollar

Boo2009

Many services provided by the PS can be privatised once there is proper regulation - waste collection services, water services, roads, health, education. I don't know who else would provide welfare, housing etc.

uncle_sam_ie

Boo2009 wrote: »

Many services provided by the PS can be privatised once there is proper regulation

That's like asking for world peace.

Boo2009

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

That's like asking for world peace.

true enough

kaiser sauze

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not sure which cuckoo land you live on to try and cite that the US healthcare system is heavily regulated.

For the record, I would be in favour of mass privatisation of all but a few core public services. The pay bill of these salaries, benefits and pensions are not sustainable.

kaiser sauze

BroomBurner wrote: »

Hmm, this is going to be an unfortunately negative comment, but my thoughts on what will go wrong with privatisation of certain parts of the PS:

RTE - at first, I agreed with uncle sam, but then I started thinking about the BBC and the different channels in America. If RTE were bought out by a private company, that private company would then control what we were watching (please see Fox in the US for how this would be detrimental).

HSE - the US system is madness. If you're poor, you're screwed. At least with a public system, everyone is looked after (to a certian degree). I think the HSE needs to be rehashed altogether and would love it to reflect the French health system of controls and availability.

Education - We all saw what happened with the education system left in the hands of the church, it is impossible to say if that would not happen again. Also, if we privatise schools, the companies that run them can teach whatever they want.

Welfare - How would this be managed if privatised, considering it is tax intake that pays it. I think it would too unweildy to even try to privatise this. A waste of time and effort that would eventually come back in to the public hold.

The main thing to try to remember when thinking about privatisation is that private companies have their own agendas and/or could be bought to push another's agenda. There is no accountability with them, while public ownerships leaves us with something.

...to the other side...

Bringing a French type system in here would not be possible. The only reason the French healthcare system survives is because French people have an innate ability to increase productivity in response to cuts. The best example of this is when they shortened their week to 34 hours, productivity increased.

That would never happen in Ireland due to lazy excuses for people that live in this country.

johnnyskeleton

The government already engages in a level of privitisation. For example, instead of making their own policy decisions, they employ private consultants to do it for them.

There are two ways of priviatising the public sector - 1) complete privatisation e.g. the HSE is no more and you have to have private health insurance or a lot of money if you want to be medically treated and 2) keeping the services as public services but outsourcing tasks to private companies e.g. private company running the luas.

The main questions to be asked before privatising are:
1) will it increase productivity e.g. will outsourcing the revenue commissioner's private hands mean that there is higher customer service, greater auditing of accounts and a greater ability to collect those taxes from people who can but don't pay?

2) will it reduce government costs - by privatising a service it can often cost more than having the matter dealt with internally e.g. if the private company tries to charge higher rates to the price insenstive government?

3) will it result in socially desirealbe/undesireable outcomes - having a private firm might mean that they are not as easily persuaded by politicial considerations, but equally a privatised police force is clearly undesireable. However, an independent forensic science labratory would be highly beneficial as they will not lean towards the prosecution.

4) will it result in increased costs for citizens - e.g. the toll roads have always been a fiasco as they have basically been a public endowement on private investors that has given them massive wealth over the years.

Generally I think a mix of public and private can achieve the best results, but only provided that that mix is done with the public's best interest at heart. In Ireland, the public's interest is rarely at the heart of government thinking and, unsatisfactory as it is, privatisation usually just means a money making opportunity for some political croney.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

HSE - the US system is madness. If you're poor, you're screwed. At least with a public system, everyone is looked after (to a certian degree). I think the HSE needs to be rehashed altogether and would love it to reflect the French health system of controls and availability.

The US system isn't the only way to run a privitised health service. Take a look at the Dutch system for a private healthcare service that maintains access to services for everyone.

Seriously, many of us who would like to see some parts of the HSE privitised detest the American set-up and would oppose anything like it being set up here.

kaiser sauze

nesf wrote: »

The US system isn't the only way to run a privitised health service. Take a look at the Dutch system for a private healthcare service that maintains access to services for everyone.

Seriously, many of us who would like to see some parts of the HSE privitised detest the American set-up and would oppose anything like it being set up here.

Because of their setup, The Dutch are rated as the best system in Europe now.

I would fully support a system modeled very closely to theirs being introduced here. I just have doubts about any government here being able to break the unions and do it; vested interests are too strong here and no party has shown me that they are tough enough.

thebman

BroomBurner wrote: »

RTE - at first, I agreed with uncle sam, but then I started thinking about the BBC and the different channels in America. If RTE were bought out by a private company, that private company would then control what we were watching (please see Fox in the US for how this would be detrimental).

As opposed to FF controlling what you watch.

Do you think RTE are unbiased? They aren't. I'd rather a blatently biased fox style channel that I can laugh at than a subtle one that people actually believe.