15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000

ei.sdraob

dresden8 wrote: »

Off you go so.

i already have to pay ALOT for private healthcare insurance

thankfully i haven't had the need to go to hospital or doctor this century due to good health so far

muboop1

thebman wrote: »

I doubt someone working in Carphone Warehouse earns 40K. If they are, I'm in the wrong job.

Yeh actually they do, but its all commission based.
I worked there for two years,
One year the highest 3 or 4 earners nabbed over 68k+ each for the year.

worked christmass eve one year, earned around 300 commission alone that day.

They get insane bonuses etc...

Pretty sweet job! In ireland it is anyway. They abolished the commission in UK.

muboop1

irish_bob wrote: »

ive never once heard of a doctor or consultants being sued for malpractive , that guy in drogheda who was removing womens wombs , far as i know he got to hold on to his pension

very few consultants put in the hours your speak of

i cannot find anythign directly relating to consultants but to junior doctors. see here
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/06/28/story42746.asp

On August 1, the hours worked by junior hospital doctors should drop dramatically from an average of 65 a week to 48.

Moving to 48-hour working weeks with current staffing levels means losing tens of thousands of doctor-patient hours a year at a time when the health service is struggling to cope.

Above was written June this year.
It states in the article that this makes things harder for us and waiting lists longer etc...

They in general work long hours!

Exact figures i do not have. But i have relations working in hospitals(nurses etc) and they say doctors work insane hours.

NewDubliner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

OP

Has anyone a reliable source for the figure of 15,278 on high salaries and a breakdown what the jobs are of those people?

thebman

muboop1 wrote: »

Yeh actually they do, but its all commission based.
I worked there for two years,
One year the highest 3 or 4 earners nabbed over 68k+ each for the year.

worked christmass eve one year, earned around 300 commission alone that day.

They get insane bonuses etc...

Pretty sweet job! In ireland it is anyway. They abolished the commission in UK.

They don't these days I promise you that. I know people that working similar sales jobs that are now commission only with no standard wage and sales are hard to come by these days.

meditraitor

NewDubliner wrote: »

Has anyone a reliable source for the figure of 15,278 on high salaries and a breakdown what the jobs are of those people?

Read the thread,

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-10-21.751.0

The breakdown is not available but that doesnt matter when you see that over a 100,000 public servants earn more than €20,000 higher than the average wage and in some cases a multiple of 3,4,5,6,7.


The taxpayer is footing the bill for this gravy train

And as I quoted on the original post,

183,629 public sector workers who earn less than €30,000

...... These guy should be left alone when it comes to pay reduction/levys


By the way Im not blaming these people for milking the state, I blame the government for letting them. Like children the more they get away with things the more they will want. And they sure were spoilt little brats in the PS during the FF years.

Another couple of things I seen on todays news


RTE

Almost 2,000 retired teachers worked in primary and secondary schools last year.
The information was released to Fine Gael Education Spokesman Brian Hayes who says that an employment programme should be put in place to help teaching graduates.

These figures were supplied by the Department of Education in response to a parliamentary question, tabled by the Fine Gael Education Spokesman.

They show that around 2,000 retired teachers, who are in receipt of pensions, are still working as substitute teachers, at both primary and second-level schools.
Around 1,500 of them were working in primary schools, at a rate of €206 a day, while the remainder were earning €49.60 per hour in secondary schools.

Brian Hayes says Ireland is losing hundreds of young teaching graduates to New Zealand, Britain and Australia.

Mr Hayes urged Minister for Education Batt O'Keeffe to free-up all casual and substitute teaching hours for younger, qualified teachers who are unemployed.

He has also called for the establishment of a graduate teacher recruitment scheme, dedicated to employing young teachers as teaching assistants at a special, reduced rate of pay.

The Minister's office has responded by saying that employment of teachers is a matter for each school's management authority.

However, Minister O'Keeffe has written to all schools asking them to prioritise newly qualified teachers.

This is a fooking disgrace, no wonder newly qualified teachers are having problems getting placment when the old boys network is in action...... There you go Jimmy, I will give you retirement and then we might call you back and pay you a 1000euro's a week to substitute.



And dont get me started on healthcare and the HSE
Indo today Online

Tuesday October 27 2009

AN HSE worker has been paid more than €1.3m -- €200,000 a year -- while on leave since 2003.
It can also be revealed that another health service worker has been paid since 1996 -- and is now moving into the 14th year of salaried absence.

Nearly 90pc of paid leave in the health service is sickness-related, with the bill for all absences of more than six months now topping €11m.

It is unclear if those on leave have been replaced on a "temporary" basis. If they have, it would mean taxpayers footing the bill on the double.

The extraordinary case of one employee being paid €1,303,068 since 2003 is certain to renew focus on how the HSE manages itself.

The person has not been identified and their former level of responsibilities is not known. Neither is it clear whether they have been continuing to receive full pay in all that time.

Almost 150 HSE workers have been out on continuing leave for more than six months -- at an accrued cost of €11m. That is €1m more than the cost of a cervical cancer vaccination programme cancelled by Health Minister Mary Harney last year.
It is not clear what verification procedures the HSE has in place for illness, or the extent to which some employees may be on a reduced rate due to prolonged absence.

But the new figures reveal that 147 employees have been on paid leave for more than six months, including 127 on long-term sick leave.

The figures are the HSE's own, produced in a written reply to a TD's parliamentary question.

One worker has been on paid leave for 13 years -- or nearly one-third of the normal working life. And 41 staff are responsible for more than €8m of the €11m paid out since 1996.
Another staff member has received more than €400,000 since 2006. That's equivalent to €133,500 a year.

Astounding

Fine Gael health spokesperson Dr James Reilly said last night: "A pay bill of €11,229,668 for employees who are on leave from the health service is astounding.

"How is this remotely justifiable when a cervical cancer vaccination programme, which would cost less than this amount, has been cancelled for budgetary reasons?"

For so many health workers to be out sick for so long was "a glaring example of mismanagement and HR incompetence" in the health service, he said.

Dr Reilly said it was important to acknowledge that people did fall ill and needed to be looked after from time to time. But he added: "There will be some cases here where people are just receiving their due entitlements, but the numbers involved sound serious alarm bells.

"I would be interested to know if unresolved industrial relations issues are part of the problem here and the Minister for Health needs to provide an explanation."

Sean McGrath, national director of human resources for the HSE, said: "Employees have statutory and contractual entitlement to paid leave, covering a number of circumstances."

These included annual leave, maternity leave, sickness absence, health and safety leave, adoptive leave, and special leave with nominal pay for specific humanitarian purposes

What the fook is this country at, and all this is being run by the Public service...... they (you know whick ones Im talking about) should be ashamed of themselves.

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

And dont get me started on healthcare and the HSE
Indo today Online

**** me :eek:

heres the article

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-pays--worker-836413m--for-doing-nothing-since-2003-1924917.html

jimmmy

As far as I know ( but I am open to correction ) the headline is based on statistics " 15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000 " is three years old. Given public sector pay has risen since 2006, it must surely be greater now ?

These 15,000 plus people on completion of service will receive a tax free cheque of 150,000 euro from the taxpayer, and a government pension of at least 50,000 euro. Can the government afford to be giving out these big pensions....and do the people really need it ? Methinks not.
Most if not all would have thier mortgage paid off, kids educated etc.
It would be interesting to find out how many people are on government pensions of € 50,000 plus ? Given people are living longer nowadays -and some public servants ( eg Gardai ) are retiring on full pension in their early fifties - 50,000 or 80,000 or 100,000 people ?

meditraitor

jimmmy wrote: »

As far as I know ( but I am open to correction ) the headline is based on statistics " 15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000 " is three years old. Given public sector pay has risen since 2006, it must surely be greater now ?

These 15,000 plus people on completion of service will receive a tax free cheque of 150,000 euro from the taxpayer, and a government pension of at least 50,000 euro. Can the government afford to be giving out these big pensions....and do the people really need it ? Methinks not.
Most if not all would have thier mortgage paid off, kids educated etc.
It would be interesting to find out how many people are on government pensions of € 50,000 plus ? Given people are living longer nowadays -and some public servants ( eg Gardai ) are retiring on full pension in their early fifties - 50,000 or 80,000 or 100,000 people ?

I think this is from 2007 and only relates to their PAYE payments...


The figures from the Kildare street post also show that

161,040 Public servant earn 40,000 or higher (well above the average wage)

ceret

jimmmy wrote: »

As far as I know ( but I am open to correction ) the headline is based on statistics " 15,278 public sector workers earn more than €100,000 " is three years old.

It's less than 2 years old. The minster for finance said "derived from income tax returns filed for the income tax year 2007" (source).

jimmmy

So even at the height of the Celtic Tiger there was a far higher percentage of people from the public sector earning 100k plus than people from the private sector ? No surprises there, but bear in mind some people in the private sector would not have the same pension perk as those public servants from 07 did, and many people in the private sector in 07 worked 60 or 70 hours or more a week, and many people from the private sector in 07 are now unemployed ( or earning much less due to decreased business or commissions ).

ceret

hk wrote: »

Apples and oranges. There are more third level graduates in the public service as a percentage of the work force. Health requires nurses and doctors, education needs people who hold degrees, finance needs people with economics degrees etc, in fact almost all areas of the PS require people who are educated to at least degree level

What's the percentage of public sector workers who have degrees compared to non-public sector workers?

Remember most nurses don't have degrees. Nursing is a degree course now. But that only started about 4 or 5 years ago, so it's only the very newly qualified nurses that have degrees now. For decades it was a certificate course.

muboop1

thebman wrote: »

They don't these days I promise you that. I know people that working similar sales jobs that are now commission only with no standard wage and sales are hard to come by these days.

I promise you that you are wrong.
My best mate still works there!
At christmass he won a holiday to vegas and a 50 inch tv(maybe 42)

Phone sales haven't dropped. Still get paid alot for contracts etc...

omahaid

muboop1 wrote: »

Phone sales haven't dropped.

They have!!

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1015/nokia.html

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Can the government afford to be giving out these big pensions....and do the people really need it ? Methinks not. Most if not all would have thier mortgage paid off, kids educated etc.

Do you know much private nursing homes cost?

jimmmy wrote: »

It would be interesting to find out how many people are on government pensions of € 50,000 plus ?

Some would not be on government pensions at all, they'd be on the pensions of their respective pension schemes. For the most part, only Civil Servants get government pensions. The amount is based on their normal salary. So, a prison officer or Garda doing lots of overtime could go over 100k but would still get a pension on less than that. The 100k figure may be coming down due to reform and cutbacks in overtime and the disincentive effect of tax, PRSI, levies and the special public tax on public sector workers.

irish_bob

ceret wrote: »

What's the percentage of public sector workers who have degrees compared to non-public sector workers?

Remember most nurses don't have degrees. Nursing is a degree course now. But that only started about 4 or 5 years ago, so it's only the very newly qualified nurses that have degrees now. For decades it was a certificate course.

and the nurses who now have degreese dont even need them , they are surplus to requirements qualifications , vanity projects

hk

irish_bob wrote: »

and the nurses who now have degreese dont even need them , they are surplus to requirements qualifications , vanity projects

but they require a third level qualification none the less, whether degree, diploma (which is a degree now) or cert. The point is many of the jobs which make up the bulk of the work force in the private sector, ie the factory line workers, retail assistants etc do not require any qualification, therefor the wage of a nurse or other public servants in similar circumstances will obviously be paid higher than those who require no qualifications.

Regarding how many in the private sector require degrees as a percentage of work force I dont know, but there are many who have degrees who do not require them for their job. As such they do not attract higher pay because the job description does not require them to have it.

nice_guy80

most of those people pay tax and PRSI. there are a lot of public service jobs that are deserving of good salaries, but quite a number that are overpaid. (TDs, ministers, HSE managers, semi state managers)

what about those in the private sector earning big sums and avoiding paying tax on it through all those lovely schemes accountants concoct

irish_bob

hk wrote: »

but they require a third level qualification none the less, whether degree, diploma (which is a degree now) or cert. The point is many of the jobs which make up the bulk of the work force in the private sector, ie the factory line workers, retail assistants etc do not require any qualification, therefor the wage of a nurse or other public servants in similar circumstances will obviously be paid higher than those who require no qualifications.

Regarding how many in the private sector require degrees as a percentage of work force I dont know, but there are many who have degrees who do not require them for their job. As such they do not attract higher pay because the job description does not require them to have it.

that doesnt explain why irish nurses , guards and teachers earn at least 30% more than in the uk , finland or the netherlands , besides many people are over qualified for the job they do , clerical officers hardly need a 3rd level qualification yet im sure plenty of them have

seangal

irish_bob wrote: »

and the nurses who now have degreese dont even need them , they are surplus to requirements qualifications , vanity projects

God almight u think a nurse dose not need a degree
u need to come into the real world and work in a hospital for a day
a nurse would nearly need a degree in law for what they have to listen to from the public never mind a degree in nursing

seangal

irish_bob wrote: »

that doesnt explain why irish nurses , guards and teachers earn at least 30% more than in the uk , finland or the netherlands , besides many people are over qualified for the job they do , clerical officers hardly need a 3rd level qualification yet im sure plenty of them have

You need to get off you ass and spend a night in James hospital a&e on a weekend night and then u might gain a understanding

irish_bob

seangal wrote: »

You need to get off you ass and spend a night in James hospital a&e on a weekend night and then u might gain a understanding

james,s hospital isnt my local and what exactly is your point , let me guess , nurses are worth any money , yawn

Alcatel

I have a question: Why is it that when we talk about the PS we always hear about the doctors, nurses and guards? Err, there's a lot more to the public sector.

How many quango's do we have? How many of them do we need? How many directors, managers, CEO's do we have earning well above the average industrial wage in them?

So, how bout we look there? I totally agree that doctors and nurses and guards should be well compensated for what they do... Although maybe there's some discussion to be had around it, consultants are fairly well paid in Ireland for example...

But let's leave that aside for a moment.

I got a leaflet from IMPACT yesterday, which has a picture of a little baby on it to make me feel like the PS, the whole thing, is required to make life safe and happy for this child. Well, some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. And I don't appreciate that the entire debate centers around these people and ignores the vast, vast PS that lies beyond essential services.

Also, incidentally, the IMPACT flyer said:

"Most public sector workers are on low or mid-range salaries. One third earn less than 40,000 euro per year."

Excuse me... But doesn't that mean that 2/3 earn more than 40k?

omahaid

Alcatel wrote: »

I have a question: Why is it that when we talk about the PS we always hear about the doctors, nurses and guards? Err, there's a lot more to the public sector.

How many quango's do we have? How many of them do we need? How many directors, managers, CEO's do we have earning well above the average industrial wage in them?

It does seem that the PS argument is if you ask "Do we need all the health admin staff, it seems a bit over populated?" http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=12881. You will get the reply "Why dont you go work a night in Tallaght A&E? I hope you go in there some Saturday night!!!!" http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?level=4&id=10682.

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

For the most part, only Civil Servants get government pensions. The amount is based on their normal salary.

"only Civil Servants get government pensions" ????????? Funny, I thought all permanent public servants got a government pension on completion of their service ( varying from 15 years in the case of the Judiciary, 30 years in the case of Gardai etc to 40 years service for others ). Where does the year and a halves tax free windfall and the pension of 50% of finishing salary ( linked to future increases ) come from which retiring Gardai and other public servants etc receive ?

NewDubliner wrote: »

So, a prison officer or Garda doing lots of overtime could go over 100k but would still get a pension on less than that. The 100k figure may be coming down due to reform and cutbacks in overtime and the disincentive effect of tax, PRSI, levies and the special public tax on public sector workers.

So if public servants work a bit less overtime ( which many do not ) they ( those on a finishing salary of 100k ) may not even get the 50k a year pension , it may be only 48 or 49k per year ? How could anyone retire on that ?:rolleyes:

jimmmy

omahaid wrote: »

Why dont you go work a night in Tallaght A&E? I hope you go in there some Saturday night!!!!"

Are Irish cities rougher than the roughest city in Europe ; is that why the Hospital consultant in Germany is paid half, and the nurse in Portugal paid only one third of Irish salaries ?

omahaid

jimmmy wrote: »

Are Irish cities rougher than the roughest city in Europe ; is that why the Hospital consultant in Germany is paid half, and the nurse in Portugal paid only one third of Irish salaries ?

Haha, probably, I just picked an example of a typical reply when someone suggests getting rid of waste in the HSE.

anonymous_joe

Alcatel wrote: »

I have a question: Why is it that when we talk about the PS we always hear about the doctors, nurses and guards? Err, there's a lot more to the public sector.

How many quango's do we have? How many of them do we need? How many directors, managers, CEO's do we have earning well above the average industrial wage in them?

So, how bout we look there? I totally agree that doctors and nurses and guards should be well compensated for what they do... Although maybe there's some discussion to be had around it, consultants are fairly well paid in Ireland for example...

But let's leave that aside for a moment.

I got a leaflet from IMPACT yesterday, which has a picture of a little baby on it to make me feel like the PS, the whole thing, is required to make life safe and happy for this child. Well, some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. And I don't appreciate that the entire debate centers around these people and ignores the vast, vast PS that lies beyond essential services.

Also, incidentally, the IMPACT flyer said:

"Most public sector workers are on low or mid-range salaries. One third earn less than 40,000 euro per year."

Excuse me... But doesn't that mean that 2/3 earn more than 40k?

Directors, CEOs and so on are so forth aren't as a group overpaid. (Before anyone quoutes individuals at me, I'm aware that there are people who can't do their jobs. Not talking about them.)

High-end management positions are paid well because most people aren't capable of doing those jobs. People resent them because they often work as hard for less money, but that's usually because they can't do the same jobs.

Alcatel

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Directors, CEOs and so on are so forth aren't as a group overpaid. (Before anyone quoutes individuals at me, I'm aware that there are people who can't do their jobs. Not talking about them.)

High-end management positions are paid well because most people aren't capable of doing those jobs. People resent them because they often work as hard for less money, but that's usually because they can't do the same jobs.

And how many of these quango's do we actually need, however? Why not cut them? Also, there's severe pressure on wages 'at the top' (and in the middle, to be fair) in the private sector. People taking one for the team today to ensure business tomorrow.

Also, again, I'm a high-end manager and I've taken some pretty big pay cuts. More than 7.5%

The PS unions just seem to make out that 95% of the PS are on the breadline.

ceret

Alcatel wrote: »

I have a question: Why is it that when we talk about the PS we always hear about the doctors, nurses and guards? Err, there's a lot more to the public sector.

There are about 370k people in the public sector.

Looks like there are about 14k Guards (source).

I think there are about 68k nurses (source).

I wonder what the rest of the employees are.

I got a leaflet from IMPACT yesterday, which has a picture of a little baby on it to make me feel like the PS, the whole thing, is required to make life safe and happy for this child. Well, some of it is. But a lot of it isn't. And I don't appreciate that the entire debate centers around these people and ignores the vast, vast PS that lies beyond essential services.

Also, incidentally, the IMPACT flyer said:

"Most public sector workers are on low or mid-range salaries. One third earn less than 40,000 euro per year."

Excuse me... But doesn't that mean that 2/3 earn more than 40k?

Not to mention that most of that website is based on figures from 2005. Since 2005 the public sector bill has gone up by more than 30%.
A thread on IMPACT's statistics